Why not just run Toxin and Slash?

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

 

I think you're getting the forums confused with Reddit.

Which one cries and moans over every little thing that isn’t even more power?

That one could stand to implode

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Panzer was literally the go-to companion before the rework because of its immortality (So did Djinn, but its revival time was way too long). But now that all companions can no longer die permanently during a mission and you have access to mods that significantly reduces their downtime, it is significantly outclassed by superior options.

yeah but also the fact that hounds are a much better primer now lol

but yes you are correct, if you have a primer who can reliably spread viral then bringing some radiation (or a weapon that already had innate radiation) would do you good. 

1 hour ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

I think you're getting the forums confused with Reddit.

honestly reddit nowadays seems better than twitter or this hellhole

[Prof-Dante]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh when you mentioned Overframe builds

I wanted to point out multiple sources, and these are the only few I know, yes the point is that they're all terrible.

my own builds are insane, I don't take anything from any other sources...maybe just inspiration.

[Prof-Dante]

18 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

So why not supplement Slash with Toxin?  Then you'll be great against both armor and shields, right?  In practice, I've found that the answer is "not really".  Because by adding Toxin, you are reducing the amount of Slash procs you'll do

That's true, but you don't need much toxin added anyway to kill corpus, so for my Sporothrix Example I added just malignant force, and to allow slash to outweigh the toxin procs I also added sweeping serration, and the results are pretty good...sure not the prime effect for each when focusing on one dot, but it works pretty well nonetheless.

of course this problem only exists in a weapon with no crits, with crits involved all you need is hunter munitions, then that status chance weighting problem is irrelevant.

4 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

this hellhole

are we talking Warframe reddit or reddit in general? because recently it's been completely pointless and a waste of time on most subs.

[ominumi]

Viral with slash/toxin only works when you're hitting the enemy units more than once. Upfront damage going into the million is far more ideal. Aside from that, most of the enemy that drops good loot like Acolytes are status immune.

[Skoomaseller]

39 minutes ago, Qorvex99 said:

are we talking Warframe reddit or reddit in general? because recently it's been completely pointless and a waste of time on most subs.

reddit in general if you avoid the mainstream subs (the ones that appear in popular 24/7) is quite pleasant, but naturally there are some takes you wish you didn't see there in the communities you follow (league of legends for instance...)

warframe reddit has gotten a bit stale with the endless "lole funny lich name guys!!!!" posts, but there are still a few diamonds in the rough. 

this place here is just tiresome but I need it anyway to read patch notes and update the list of bugs for Yareli (when I can spare time to properly review). yet it still isn't all bad because there are posts that spark genuine discussion not overrun by contrarians, like this post here. 

[UnstarPrime]

1 hour ago, Qorvex99 said:

That's true, but you don't need much toxin added anyway to kill corpus, so for my Sporothrix Example I added just malignant force, and to allow slash to outweigh the toxin procs I also added sweeping serration, and the results are pretty good...sure not the prime effect for each when focusing on one dot, but it works pretty well nonetheless.

of course this problem only exists in a weapon with no crits, with crits involved all you need is hunter munitions, then that status chance weighting problem is irrelevant.

The thing that makes it still a problem in both cases is the concept of "opportunity costs".  The mod slots you're using to add Toxin or adjust your elemental balance more towards Slash could instead be used to increase the DPS of your Slash procs.  Base damage, crit damage, crit chance, multishot, fire rate, etc...there are lots of options that will generally lead to greater returns.

That said, I don't want to pressure you into thinking your build is bad or insufficient.  If you like your build and it's getting you where you want to go, that's more than good enough.  But from a buildcraft standpoint, I would simply be very surprised if there were any general-use build where supplementing Slash with Toxin lead to optimal performance.

[Hexerin]

54 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

reddit in general if you avoid the mainstream subs (the ones that appear in popular 24/7) is quite pleasant, but naturally there are some takes you wish you didn't see there in the communities you follow (league of legends for instance...)

warframe reddit has gotten a bit stale with the endless "lole funny lich name guys!!!!" posts, but there are still a few diamonds in the rough. 

this place here is just tiresome but I need it anyway to read patch notes and update the list of bugs for Yareli (when I can spare time to properly review). yet it still isn't all bad because there are posts that spark genuine discussion not overrun by contrarians, like this post here. 

Reddit is trash. The upvote/downvote system discourages discussion, because anything that goes against the status quo (regardless of validity) is censored by the system. Turns every subreddit into an echo chamber.

[Loza03]

Why not just brute force through shields and HP?

Well simple: The Elite Crewman, on the steel path at level 150 has about 50,794 ehp (effective hit points). The Elite Lancer has1,370,371 ehp.

The Elite Crewman literally has 3% the EHP of the Elite Lancer.

 

So yeah that's why nobody bothers to bypass shields.

[nslay]

I guess this is my fourth time joining this kind of discussion.

14 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Why not just brute force through shields and HP?

Because it doesn't work very well when Guardian Eximus are around. Go to Simulacrum, spawn, say, 10 Steel Path Eximus Elite Crewman and toss Glaive Prime at them. Let us know how that works (spoiler, painfully slowly). Make sure you remove Primed Fever Strike... no Toxin damage allowed. You bruteforce those shields with Slash.

If you slot Primed Fever Strike on Glaive Prime, as per OP's absolutely correct observation, the Glaive Prime will generalize well to all factions. So yeah, Toxin+Slash will generalize well at everything.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I think a lot of people are missing a key point on this thread:

Why not just run Toxin and Slash with a Viral Primer from another source? Because not all guns support that.

There are multiple weapons that have F-tier Slash on them, or even none. There are weapons with innate Elemental damage on them that makes your Toxin turn into Viral, Gas or Corrosive.

There are weapons with absolutely no Crit so they can't benefit from Hunter Munitions. And there are enemies that are immune to the Viral Status.

On top of that, there are multiple builds that can make specific weapons even more viable, like Yareli's signature pistol the Kompressa, actually really benefits from running a high amount of elemental damage types that don't merge with the innate Viral, such as using the new Radiation mod to run Corrosive, Radiation and Viral on the same gun while saving a mod slot. You then use Cascadia Empowered to trigger large bursts of damage from every single one of its base-8-multishot shots. The scaling as you get more and more Multishot and more and more Status inflicted, can scale with other damage vulnerability Abilities to deal some crazy damage.

Not everything can, and not everything should, be able to brute-force through with a generic build.

Higher tier scaling, in fact, can benefit from being more strategic and combining more effects to produce something that's greater than the expected sum of its parts.

Mod for a weapon's strengths.

Not for a meta that you think does everything.

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, nslay said:

Because it doesn't work very well when Guardian Eximus are around. Go to Simulacrum, spawn, say, 10 Steel Path Eximus Elite Crewman and toss Glaive Prime at them. Let us know how that works (spoiler, painfully slowly). Make sure you remove Primed Fever Strike... no Toxin damage allowed. You bruteforce those shields with Slash.

If you slot Primed Fever Strike on Glaive Prime, as per OP's absolutely correct observation, the Glaive Prime will generalize well to all factions. So yeah, Toxin+Slash will generalize well at everything.

"Use a radial weapon against the enemies that are effectively immune to radial."

Betcha thought you were going to have a 'gotcha' moment or something with that, and not get called out for your BS.

[nslay]

28 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

"Use a radial weapon against the enemies that are effectively immune to radial."

Betcha thought you were going to have a 'gotcha' moment or something with that, and not get called out for your BS.

Huh? Eximus Elite Crewman are not immune to radial damage. What are you talking about? It sounds like you tried this scenario, found that Slash didn't work very well, and then imagined this as a reason. Just how else could the almighty Slash not work well? And surprise, it really doesn't work well in this scenario... just like the last time we had this discussion and I showed you a video of it not working.

Or are you thinking that I told you to spawn exactly 10 Guardian Eximus? I did not say that... I said "10 Steel Path Eximus Elite Crewman". The likelihood you get exactly 10 Guardian Eximus in Simulacrum is pretty small. But these guys still get hit by Glaive Prime's explosion... you can easily test this by slotting Primed Fever Strike and watching them die way more efficiently. So what the heck are you talking about?

Do you know why Slash by itself doesn't work well in the scenario I described? Because any nearby Guardian Eximus is going to cripple the Slash DoT on all nearby allies. And since all these enemies have Steel Path multipliers, they have something like 3x the normal shields. So you get to sit there and watch Slash tic away on those huge shield quantities... and tic a way smaller values because of the Guardian Eximus damage reduction effect. You cannot kill these shielded enemies efficiently with Slash as long any nearby Guardian Eximus lives.

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, nslay said:

Huh? Eximus Elite Crewman are not immune to radial damage. What are you talking about? It sounds like you tried this scenario, found that Slash didn't work very well, and then imagined this as a reason. Just how else could the almighty Slash not work well? And surprise, it really doesn't work well in this scenario... just like the last time we had this discussion and I showed you a video of it not working.

Or are you thinking that I told you to spawn exactly 10 Guardian Eximus? I did not say that... I said "10 Steel Path Eximus Elite Crewman". The likelihood you get exactly 10 Guardian Eximus in Simulacrum is pretty small. But these guys still get hit by Glaive Prime's explosion... you can easily test this by slotting Primed Fever Strike and watching them die way more efficiently. So what the heck are you talking about?

Do you know why Slash by itself doesn't work well in the scenario I described? Because any nearby Guardian Eximus is going to cripple the Slash DoT on all nearby allies. And since all these enemies have Steel Path multipliers, they have something like 3x the normal shields. So you get to sit there and watch Slash tic away on those huge shield quantities... and tic a way smaller values because of the Guardian Eximus damage reduction effect. You cannot kill these shielded enemies efficiently with Slash as long any nearby Guardian Eximus lives.

Gets called out, backpedals and deflects. How typical.

[nslay]

Just now, Hexerin said:

Gets called out, backpedals and deflects. How typical.

You didn't call out anything though. You're just wrong. And I told you why and how to test your wrongness.

[nslay]

I went and dug up the videos back from January... These were made for a forum topic about Toxin being potentially powerful (with Radiation or something weird like that).

Looks like I got Eximus Elite Crewman confused with the more potent Eximus Corpus Tech. Sorry about that! Anyway...

So here's with Glaive Prime with just Slash... and I compare against Eximus Corpus Tech and Exo Gokstad Officers. And also Cerata is compared not that it matters in this topic. Lucky for you, Eximus Corpus Tech and Glaive Prime are compared first in both videos! You can skip everything afterward!

Spoiler

 

Now a very prominent poster Traumtulpe didn't like what I showed. This player thought I should mod the Glaive Prime differently - and importantly - slot Primed Fever Strike. And this player wanted a comparison with Toxic Ancients which are actually immune to Cerata to my surprise.

So here's that video... and you can see a big difference it makes for Glaive Prime when it is augmented with Toxin damage against Eximus Corpus Tech

Spoiler

 

And the conclusion was that the Glaive Prime with the Primed Fever Strike mod made it a more general weapon than my original claim that Cerata was more general. The Cerata didn't work on the Toxic Ancients. I still love Cerata though! It works for all the factions I play these days... no faction mods needed or anything (just a priming weapon like Phage for armored enemies).

 

[Hexerin]

On 2024-03-03 at 2:41 AM, nslay said:

I went and dug up the videos back from January... These were made for a forum topic about Toxin being potentially powerful (with Radiation or something weird like that).

Looks like I got Eximus Elite Crewman confused with the more potent Eximus Corpus Tech. Sorry about that! Anyway...

So here's with Glaive Prime with just Slash... and I compare against Eximus Corpus Tech and Exo Gokstad Officers. And also Cerata is compared not that it matters in this topic. Lucky for you, Eximus Corpus Tech and Glaive Prime are compared first in both videos! You can skip everything afterward!

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Now a very prominent poster Traumtulpe didn't like what I showed. This player thought I should mod the Glaive Prime differently - and importantly - slot Primed Fever Strike. And this player wanted a comparison with Toxic Ancients which are actually immune to Cerata to my surprise.

So here's that video... and you can see a big difference it makes for Glaive Prime when it is augmented with Toxin damage against Eximus Corpus Tech

  Reveal hidden contents

 

And the conclusion was that the Glaive Prime with the Primed Fever Strike mod made it a more general weapon than my original claim that Cerata was more general. The Cerata didn't work on the Toxic Ancients. I still love Cerata though! It works for all the factions I play these days... no faction mods needed or anything (just a priming weapon like Phage for armored enemies).

 

All those videos show is that you have no idea how to play the game. You're the type of player that will attack the enemy being healed, and then post that "the game is poorly balanced!" instead of reflecting about not prioritizing the healer first (and also not coordinating with an ally to make it a 2v2).

[nslay]

On 2024-03-03 at 4:50 AM, Hexerin said:

-snip-

Oh yeah? Feel free to elaborate your objections please. But just like your previous "back pedal" post, and the post about Eximus Elite Crewman being immune to radial damage (which they're not)... or something like that... you don't really provide anything of substance in any of your rebuttals. If you find fault, and you know you're right, you just point it out. Simple. Truth prevails. And voila... Attacking me personally doesn't accomplish anything except reducing your own credibility and making you look very foolish.

You're clearly enthusiastic about the game. And I bet you feel like you know everything about Warframe... but you need to be open minded to the possibility that you may not actually know everything about the game (and there's nothing wrong with that). That your current understanding may even be completely or partially wrong! This happens to me sometimes, like, for example, not remembering those pesky Toxic Ancients when testing Glaive Prime vs Cerata.

[Hexerin]

38 minutes ago, nslay said:

Oh yeah? Feel free to elaborate your objections please. But just like your previous "back pedal" post, and the post about Eximus Elite Crewman being immune to radial damage (which they're not)... or something like that... you don't really provide anything of substance in any of your rebuttals. If you find fault, and you know you're right, you just point it out. Simple. Truth prevails. And voila... Attacking me personally doesn't accomplish anything except reducing your own credibility and making you look very foolish.

You're clearly enthusiastic about the game. And I bet you feel like you know everything about Warframe... but you need to be open minded to the possibility that you may not actually know everything about the game (and there's nothing wrong with that). That your current understanding may even be completely or partially wrong! This happens to me sometimes, like, for example, not remembering those pesky Toxic Ancients when testing Glaive Prime vs Cerata.

You see this group of enemies coming at you, who do you attack?

Spoiler

There is only one correct answer, which is also objectively correct by any rational metric, and you've consistently gotten it wrong so far.

[nslay]

21 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You see this group of enemies coming at you, who do you attack?

I don't really see the relevance with AOE. If you have a Glaive, like me, you can hit all of them pretty easily. It's not a single-target weapon. And if you're using something with Toxin damage that bypasses the shields, you don't even really need to think about it w.r.t. Guardian Eximus.

If I was sporting a single-target weapon and I noticed something hokey with damage numbers or replenishing health bars, I'd definitely be looking for enemies that reduce damage or heal. But that's not really a practical concern with Glaives. Just mindlessly toss the thing into large groups and manually detonate.

EDIT: Tell you what, I'll run these tests for you tomorrow where I'll focus the Glaive in the general direction of the Guardian/Leech Eximus to see if it makes a difference for you. I don't think it will make a huge difference between Slash vs Slash+Toxin but I could be wrong! I'll post another video of the result.

Edited March 3 by nslay

[Hexerin]

26 minutes ago, nslay said:

I don't really see the relevance with AOE. If you have a Glaive, like me, you can hit all of them pretty easily. It's not a single-target weapon. And if you're using something with Toxin damage that bypasses the shields, you don't even really need to think about it w.r.t. Guardian Eximus.

If I was sporting a single-target weapon and I noticed something hokey with damage numbers or replenishing health bars, I'd definitely be looking for enemies that reduce damage or heal. But that's not really a practical concern with Glaives. Just mindlessly toss the thing into large groups and manually detonate.

EDIT: Tell you what, I'll run these tests for you tomorrow where I'll focus the Glaive in the general direction of the Guardian/Leech Eximus to see if it makes a difference for you. I don't think it will make a huge difference between Slash vs Slash+Toxin but I could be wrong! I'll post another video of the result.

"This enemy hard counters radial. I'll just keep using radial."

[nslay]

5 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

"This enemy hard counters radial. I'll just keep using radial."

Ah, but they still get hit by Glaive explosions. Are you sure watched the videos? They all die from Glaive explosions...

[0_The_F00l]

10 hours ago, Hexerin said:

"This enemy hard counters radial. I'll just keep using radial."

 

10 hours ago, nslay said:

Ah, but they still get hit by Glaive explosions. Are you sure watched the videos? They all die from Glaive explosions...

I am not sure what both of you are arguing about at this point , 

Guardian eximus reduces all radial damage to itself and allies , so it makes sense to Target it with single target attacks , irrespective of your elemental damage.

Slash does not bypass shields , toxin does , so it makes sense that anything with shields will be more easily dispatched with toxin compared to slash if there are guardian eximus around (assuming Armor is not an issue).

Really feels like you two are arguing pointlessly.

[Loza03]

19 hours ago, nslay said:

I guess this is my fourth time joining this kind of discussion.

Because it doesn't work very well when Guardian Eximus are around. Go to Simulacrum, spawn, say, 10 Steel Path Eximus Elite Crewman and toss Glaive Prime at them. Let us know how that works (spoiler, painfully slowly). Make sure you remove Primed Fever Strike... no Toxin damage allowed. You bruteforce those shields with Slash.

If you slot Primed Fever Strike on Glaive Prime, as per OP's absolutely correct observation, the Glaive Prime will generalize well to all factions. So yeah, Toxin+Slash will generalize well at everything.

Yeah, that isn't anything to do with the Shields vs Armour problem, and it's worth noting that all that Guardian Eximus does is functionally increase the EHP of the calculated Elite Crewman to 507,940 EHP, or in other words... a whole 37% of the Elite Lancer's EHP! That puts them at about as much EHP as a... sortie 2 heavy gunner. Not even Steel Path, literally just the sortie.  Which granted, is pretty beefy all things considered, but if you're comfortable in the Steel Path against Grineer, that level of enemy is probably not an issue for you by now.

What you're describing is an extremely edge-case artificially-engineered scenario, and is completely unrelated to the core problem of Warframe's EHP calculation (and pretty much all of its various scaling cases). Sure, in that specific situation, with several Corpus equipped with a ton of extra defenses in the form of Overguard, 10X EHP and rotating defensive shields that block most of the attacks aimed at them, yeah, scraping every bit of extra damage you can on them is entirely reasonable, and exactly what you should do. But that's not how the game actually works, and you know it.

[nslay]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Yeah, that isn't anything to do with the Shields vs Armour problem, and it's worth noting that all that Guardian Eximus does is functionally increase the EHP of the calculated Elite Crewman to 507,940 EHP, or in other words... a whole 37% of the Elite Lancer's EHP! That puts them at about as much EHP as a... sortie 2 heavy gunner. Not even Steel Path, literally just the sortie.  Which granted, is pretty beefy all things considered, but if you're comfortable in the Steel Path against Grineer, that level of enemy is probably not an issue for you by now.

What you're describing is an extremely edge-case artificially-engineered scenario, and is completely unrelated to the core problem of Warframe's EHP calculation (and pretty much all of its various scaling cases). Sure, in that specific situation, with several Corpus equipped with a ton of extra defenses in the form of Overguard, 10X EHP and rotating defensive shields that block most of the attacks aimed at them, yeah, scraping every bit of extra damage you can on them is entirely reasonable, and exactly what you should do. But that's not how the game actually works, and you know it.

No, come on now, that's not artificial or some kind of edge case. You can easily run into this in normal SP gameplay. Guardian Eximus are pretty common Corpus/Corrupted Eximus after all! I happened to first observe pure Slash struggling in SP Void missions and figured out the Guardian Eximus were messing with the damage. That's very annoying! Then I tested it in Simulacrum... I didn't imagine this scenario in a vacuum. It's also one of the main motivators of why I dropped Glaive Prime and primarily use Cerata for pretty much everything now (along with a Phage to prime armored enemies to make Toxin work for them too).