I don't understand why the "spool up" effect is in the game.

[MarakViri]

Why do single-fire weapons exist when we have fully-automatic weapons? Why have single shot rifles when we have sniper rifles? Why have burst-shot weapons? Why have alt-fire?

Diversity. If you don't enjoy using spool weapons, that's fine. There's not even a dozen of them in the game, so it's not hard for you to avoid them. I, personally, don't particularly enjoy snipers. Do you know what I do? I don't use them unless I feel like using them. Simple.

If this is your understanding of the game, why do we have any weapons other than the Torid Incarnon? Well, maybe keep the Vectis Prime or something for Eidolon runs I suppose. But why have any other Primary?

Diversity and Versatility is key in this game, and the varied weapons and frames allow people with different playstyles to enjoy the game. That's why there are Oberon mains even though he is arguably the worst frame in the game; because people enjoy playing him. I bet there are some people who run the Kuva Kohm + Twin Kohmak because they enjoy the spool feature. Or maybe people just use them to get around damage attenuation or something.

Ultimately, if you don't like the weapon type, don't use them.

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

27 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

"Theatrics" is meant to be an insult, but not directed at you.  It's directed at the utterly pointless mechanic we're discussing because there is zero logical reason for most of those weapons to work that way.  No one would design an actual rifle like this on purpose.  In fact, for most firearms, even with caseless ammunition, you'd have to go out of your way to make it function like this.  And because it serves no purpose, it's for show.  Theatrics.

Are we not playing a video game with space magic and nonsensical amounts of particle effects, whose main appeal includes customization and fashion? Of COURSE aesthetics and theatrics matter- we're piloting shiny magical biosuits that do aerial twirlies every second. Like sir this is a video game easy enough that players can and are encouraged to do things with style. 

I really don't get how someone can look at what's obviously meant to give these entirely fictional and fantastical sci-fi equipments flavor and genuinely think removing the flavor is any kind of answer. Why have bows, or Opticor, or Penta? Why have guns other than Kuva Nukor at that point? 

[MrDugan]

On 2024-03-08 at 6:17 AM, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

Are we not playing a video game with space magic and nonsensical amounts of particle effects, whose main appeal includes customization and fashion? Of COURSE aesthetics and theatrics matter- we're piloting shiny magical biosuits that do aerial twirlies every second. Like sir this is a video game easy enough that players can and are encouraged to do things with style. 

I really don't get how someone can look at what's obviously meant to give these entirely fictional and fantastical sci-fi equipments flavor and genuinely think removing the flavor is any kind of answer. Why have bows, or Opticor, or Penta? Why have guns other than Kuva Nukor at that point? 

Those are cosmetic theatrics.  This affects gameplay negatively.

[MarakViri]

10 hours ago, MrDugan said:

Those are cosmetic theatrics.  This affects gameplay negatively.

No. You feel that it impacts your gameplay negatively. There is a difference. Just because you don't like the function doesn't make it a negative. There are a variety of weapon types, to suit different play styles. Now, I will acknowledge that spool-up weapons are far from the meta, but so is the [Sonicor], and you can enjoy that from time to time.

Claiming that something "affects gameplay negatively" without providing any actual evidence is just rude. The Stug affects the game more negatively than the spool-up mechanic, but do you know what we can do? That's right, we can choose to not use it. Why do you care about this weapon-type so strongly?

Like, I can understand your initial point, in that they feel disappointing. That the build-up just isn't worth the slow start. But have you tried using them against a genuine bullet sponge such as The Fragmented One, or an endless horde of enemies coming down a narrow passage? Because the rapidly increasing fire rate works very well there, especially when paired with some kind of ammo efficiency.

I also don't use them very often. In fact, the last time I used one was, I think, the [Twin Kohmak], when I was levelling it. And, I also didn't like it. I still don't in fact. I have had some fun with the [Kohm] however, even though it is nowhere near my favourite weapon. I don't even think I've invested forma in it, so maybe that's why. But it doesn't change the fact that, as soon as I stopped trying to engage in maximum carnage and actually enjoy myself, I was able to do it.

Not all weapons need to be incredible, nor do all weapon types. Thrown Weapons are basically garbage 99% of the time, especially with the Self-Damage-Chroma strategy being wiped from existence. But they still exist, and they can still be fun.

It's the same with frames. [Octavia] is a horrible frame to play, in my personal opinion, because I don't enjoy her gameplay loop. And that's fine. Does that make her a bad frame? Not at all. Does it make her mechanics flawed? Also no. Does it affect gameplay negatively? Only my own, and only when I choose to play her.

Does a teammate playing her negatively affect my gaming experience? ... okay, sometimes, but that's how it works for any nuke frame honestly. Does it impact you if a squadmate is using a spool-up weapon? The answer to that is "rarely", as there are times when certain weapons just ... don't work for what you need. I've had someone bring the [Stug] to a Secondary-Only Sortie Assassination, so I understand that there are situations where they can cause negative gaming experience, but that is all ultimately based on player choice.

To make this short, if you don't enjoy them, don't use them. We have enough weapons that get relegated to being Mastery Fodder as a general rule, so it shouldn't make much of an impact to you.

[Berzerkules]

On 2024-03-02 at 10:32 PM, taiiat said:

Weapons with a spool offer the capability to fire short bursts or potentially individual Shots on demand, even while having a high Fire Rate.
that's the feature that it offers, i think.

I pretty much came here to say this.

I'll add my own bit as well though. Sometimes you don't need to go all out on a single guy or a small group and sometimes you got a whole mess of baddies and you want to unload. Stuff like the kuva kohm are versatile like that and it can help with ammo conservation as well. 

I love the kohm, it was one of my first favorite weapons. My first expensive riven I got was a Kohm ms/sc/-, I bought for a 100% sc kuva kohm before things changed. That thing took what felt like forever to find(it needed like +/-2% from perfect sc roll to reach 100% sc with it's dispo at the time). After shotgun sc changed I got a ms/sc/fr/- one for anyone that wasn't Wisp.

I liked the Kohm so much I also got ms/dmg/projectile speed/- rivens for some meme solo eidolon hunts. My knee cap popper got head shots with 38-64m fall off on Kohm and 28-57m on Kuva Kohm.

I also have sc/ms/fr riven for twin kohmak because why not. 

edit: If you don't call your twin kohmak pocket kohms wtf are you even doing?

 

Edited March 12 by Berzerkules

[MrDugan]

3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I pretty much came here to say this.

I'll add my own bit as well though. Sometimes you don't need to go all out on a single guy or a small group and sometimes you got a whole mess of baddies and you want to unload. Stuff like the kuva kohm are versatile like that and it can help with ammo conservation as well. 

I love the kohm, it was one of my first favorite weapons. My first expensive riven I got was a Kohm ms/sc/-, I bought for a 100% sc kuva kohm before things changed. That thing took what felt like forever to find(it needed like +/-2% from perfect sc roll to reach 100% sc with it's dispo at the time). After shotgun sc changed I got a ms/sc/fr/- one for anyone that wasn't Wisp.

I liked the Kohm so much I also got ms/dmg/projectile speed/- rivens for some meme solo eidolon hunts. My knee cap popper got head shots with 38-64m fall off on Kohm and 28-57m on Kuva Kohm.

I also have sc/ms/fr riven for twin kohmak because why not. 

edit: If you don't call your twin kohmak pocket kohms wtf are you even doing?

 

You guys know you don't have to hold the trigger down until the mag is empty, right?  I have to ask this, considering the argument more than one of you is making.  You can fire in short bursts with a weapon that doesn't have spool up.  Your argument makes zero sense.  I can go and fire short bursts and single shots with basically any automatic weapon.  I'm not crazy, this is a thing in pretty much every game that has automatic weapons, and also a thing in real life.  Just don't hold down the trigger.  Nothing about spool up contributes to that in any way.

 

21 hours ago, MarakViri said:

No. You feel that it impacts your gameplay negatively.

No.  It's a limitation.  You enjoy the limitation because of whatever "flavor" it represents.  That doesn't mean that it's not a negative to the effectiveness of the weapon.  And if you say anything about "short bursts" being the reason why it's not a limitation on god I am blocking all of you because you have to be trolling at this point.

[MarakViri]

1 hour ago, MrDugan said:

No.  It's a limitation.  You enjoy the limitation because of whatever "flavor" it represents.  That doesn't mean that it's not a negative to the effectiveness of the weapon.  And if you say anything about "short bursts" being the reason why it's not a limitation on god I am blocking all of you because you have to be trolling at this point.

I'm pretty sure you are trolling, actually. You have a bunch of us telling you that you are incorrect, and still you insist that you are correct.

Do you find the charge rate on weapons such as the Opticor to be a limitation of the weapon? Or perhaps the Hystrix having quills that you cycle through, instead of applying all four status' at default?

People are making legitimate points. I could use the Soma as a semi-automatic weapon if I want, or a burst fire, or a fully automatic. You can use the Kohm the same way.

Also, your response to my quote shows that you only read what you want to. For the most part, I do not enjoy spool-up weapons, hence why I don't use them.

I also don't use Nataruk, because I don't want to. It's amazing how that works. I dislike charge weapons like the Opticor, but that doesn't Diminish its viability, usability, or prevent other people from having a different opinion.

On 2024-03-03 at 4:50 AM, MrDugan said:

There's only 2 reasons why I can see for this being in the game.  The first is some kind of "cool" factor.  The problem is, it's not cool.  It doesn't feel cinematic.

The concept of "cool" is individualised, so you cannot make this claim in such an absolute fashion. You don't find it cool, and that's okay. Nobody is telling you you need to enjoy every mechanic in the game. Nobody is forcing you to use mechanics you don't like. This game has so much variety with the mechanics you choose to subject yourself to, to the extent that you don't even really need to play half of its actual content if you don't want to, let alone the weapons and frames.

On 2024-03-03 at 4:50 AM, MrDugan said:

It's aggravating on every weapon that I've used it on, and I mod for fire rate to mitigate it because it's a nuisance.  It doesn't add any flavor to a weapon, not even the first time I use one that has it.  It only adds a roadblock to me actually shooting something.  And considering it's not even a realistic mechanic in terms of how firearms work, especially not the fire arms it's on, it's actually what I would consider immersion breaking

Okay? You have to mod for Fire Rate because you find the fire rate lacking. Have you heard of the Nataruk?

And, I'm sorry ... did you say that you find it immersion breaking because, and I quote "it's not even a realistic mechanic in terms of how firearms work"?

This is a game in which you play a functionally immortal trans-dimensionally energised character that disobeys almost every law of physics as if they were barely present suggestions, in a universe that contains fully sentient growths that form a universal hivemind, clones so corrupted by their addiction to a liquid energy that you use to essentially gamble on super-powered modifications that are applied to weapons of complete science fiction.

Not to mention that physics-rejecting character you play is fully capable of controlling bio-engineered weapons of mass destruction from inside a pocket dimension. But the way a weapon operates is what breaks your immersion? When we have space lasers, teleportation, and literal trans-dimensional entities? A weapon that has multiple overlapping ammunition feeds is where you draw the line? 

On 2024-03-03 at 1:26 PM, MrDugan said:

I don't understand the concept of enjoying a hinderance for the sake of "flavor" or "character" or any of that

Just because you see it as a hindrance doesn't make it so. But let's go through this. Let's say you have a spool weapon that gradually builds up to firing 5 shots at once, increasing every fifth shot, and it has a Magazine of 100. Let's remove the spool up. The time to empty your magazine has gone to 20 shots from 30 shots. Also, the weaker enemies that would require only a single shot are now resulting in a net loss of four shots.

You could implement something akin to alt-fire, switching between single shot, spool-up, and fully spooled I suppose, but that takes away from the flavour that you don't understand (and honestly, neither do I for the most part).

On 2024-03-03 at 1:50 PM, MrDugan said:

I find it nearly impossible to believe that there's too many of you that enjoy having to wait on your weapon to fire properly.  I swear the people in this community will get so attached to the weirdest, tiniest, most pointless details of a tool and start talking about how that thing is the tool's whole identity and is beyond important.  It's no more selfish to want a change than it is to not want a change.  I don't want the restriction, you want the restriction.  We both want what WE want, but you're trying to make me out to be the bad guy for not wanting a weapon to take an eternity to fire.

You find it so unlikely that people would disagree with you about something they've had literal years to adapt to and form their own opinions on? Huh. How strange.

Wait ... you know people get attached to tiny things? And you're surprised to have people disagree with you about one of those tiny things? Huh. How strange. 

I do agree about wanting change and the lack of change being equally selfish though. We want what we want. But, on this particular instance, you appear to be the minority, and you're trying to be loud to get your way.

And, I'm sorry, making you the bad guy ... for not wanting a weapon that takes an eternity to fire? My guy, that's a charge weapon. What you want is a weapon that has fully potential instantly. ... wait, does this mean you don't like the Galvanised Mods? They're basically spool-up effects after all, and they're optional.

Despite everything I've said thus far, I do feel that the final result of the weapons is lacklustre. They could use better damage potential, but so could a lot of weapons.

On 2024-03-03 at 1:50 PM, MrDugan said:

And I'm aware there's tons of weapons to use.  Yet mechanics within the game, including mechanics that are upcoming in new content, expect me to use all the gear, and not just what I like mechanically

Yes. It's odd how you might need to use some content to access certain optional (but heavily recommended and useful) content. Duviri was less punishing, as you could just, not do a run for 2 hours, or do a quick single objective in solo, and have it reset. Plus it also gave multiple options.

But, as I've said before, I'm far more concerned about getting the Stug than a spool-up weapon.

On 2024-03-04 at 4:07 AM, MrDugan said:

The Twin Kohmak runs out of ammo very quickly in higher levels, and Trick Mag is the only way outside of a riven to shore that up.

... yeah, this is fair. You're not wrong. You do need some kind of ammo efficiency, or increased reserve, to use this to its full potential, and forcing you to use one specific mod seems a bit harsh. Quick question though, how many of your weapons use Faction Mods and/or Multishot? I understand the comparison is somewhat disingenuous, but there are functionally compulsory mods on many things in this game. Some warframe augments are basically forced as they band-aid a flaw. This is no different. Should it be fixed? Yes. Is it a flaw with the weapon type? Honestly, maybe. Some tweaking of the numbers might be beneficial, but it seems like you're asking for spooling to be removed completely, which seems flawed.

On 2024-03-04 at 4:11 PM, MrDugan said:

What positives do you think they have over weapons without spool up aside from the theatrics

Okay, what benefit do burst-fire weapons have over fully automatic weapons? Is it the reliability of only shooting exactly the number of bullets you're expecting?

Spool weapons use a single shot at a lower fire rate initially. This helps with Ammo economy against singular units. I've used fully auto weapons with obscene fire rates and fired three or four shots when I tapped, and that's not fun. That's the "positive" of the "high-fire rate spooling". It ramps up when you find yourself in a situation where you need to keep firing. To me, this is a benefit. But again, numbers need some tweaking, and the visual display of stats could use some clarification.

 

Edited March 12 by MarakViri

[Novashank]

On 2024-03-02 at 8:38 PM, Hexerin said:

If you don't like it, then don't use it. There's hundreds of other weapons for you to use. It's beyond selfish to ask for something that many people enjoy to be removed because you don't like it.

I'm sorry but this is a ridiculous and snowflaky argument.

Edited March 13 by Novashank

[Novashank]

On 2024-03-02 at 8:50 PM, MrDugan said:

I find it nearly impossible to believe that there's too many of you that enjoy having to wait on your weapon to fire properly.  I swear the people in this community will get so attached to the weirdest, tiniest, most pointless details of a tool and start talking about how that thing is the tool's whole identity and is beyond important.  It's no more selfish to want a change than it is to not want a change.  I don't want the restriction, you want the restriction.  We both want what WE want, but you're trying to make me out to be the bad guy for not wanting a weapon to take an eternity to fire.

And I'm aware there's tons of weapons to use.  Yet mechanics within the game, including mechanics that are upcoming in new content, expect me to use all the gear, and not just what I like mechanically.  So I'm asking for a balancing restriction on a group of weapons that don't need to be restricted, be removed.  I didn't attack you for liking it in my response, I said I couldn't understand, yet here you are bashing me.  You could have been civil and just disagreed with me.  This is why I can't understand how everyone paints this community as so friendly.  Trying to paint me as some selfish monster ("beyond selfish" paints a pretty harsh picture, to me.) because I actually expect my weapon to fire at the listed fire rate when I pull the trigger. 

I haven't been modded on this lovely new account that DE forced on me, and I intend to keep it that way.  But based on how you spoke to me in your last reply, please understand I feel like you deserve a much harsher response than this.

Yup. This is exactly what you can expect from the kind of people that come to these forums. There is nothing so ridiculous, unnecessary, or flawed that at least one of these individuals won't defend like their life depends on its existence.

Edited March 13 by Novashank

[voltocitygel]

On 3/12/2024 at 5:23 AM, MrDugan said:

You guys know you don't have to hold the trigger down until the mag is empty, right?  I have to ask this, considering the argument more than one of you is making.  You can fire in short bursts with a weapon that doesn't have spool up.  Your argument makes zero sense.  I can go and fire short bursts and single shots with basically any automatic weapon.  I'm not crazy, this is a thing in pretty much every game that has automatic weapons, and also a thing in real life.  Just don't hold down the trigger.  Nothing about spool up contributes to that in any way.

 

No.  It's a limitation.  You enjoy the limitation because of whatever "flavor" it represents.  That doesn't mean that it's not a negative to the effectiveness of the weapon.  And if you say anything about "short bursts" being the reason why it's not a limitation on god I am blocking all of you because you have to be trolling at this point.

I am well aware you don’t have to keep the button held down. I don’t always hold down the trigger continuously, especially on spool ups. (If I am, it’s probably a held trigger or charge weapon. I Love charge weapons, but not a fan of beam weapons) You only hold it down as long as you need it- there’s rarely a point in shooting at nothing to keep your fire rate and multishot up. Though, I would argue that spool ups appeal to people who prefer longer sustained fire to bursts of automatic fire. Many spool ups (like the soma) get more accurate as they spool up, to minimize the penalty the extra fire rate imposes, making them more effective at continuously firing than ordinary automatic weapons, which don’t have that feature.

The entire point of the khom and khomak is a continuously ramping up source of DPS the longer you fire them. Your fire rate and multishot go up as you fire them, but so does ammo consumed. It’s not strictly a downside to not have max DPS right away- it conserves ammo on an already ammo hungry weapon. It also makes a weapon that while otherwise relegated to just crowd clearing, will be better at single target while it ramps up. 
 

Speaking of ramp up, are melee weapons bad because they don’t start out with max combo multiplier? If you’re using gladiator mods, blood rush, or heavy attacks, you really benefit from combo multiplier.

The same logic could be applied to galvanized mods, but they are some of the strongest mods in the game. 

Going back to ammo economy, take any burst fire weapon for example- if there’s an enemy that will die from one bullet, aren’t you wasting ammo when you fire a whole burst into just the one enemy? The same logic applies to having a lower initial rate of fire and ammo consumption on the khom family of weapons- by not having your full multishot / ammo consumption, you can more efficiently eliminate a single target. If there’s a crowd, you ramp up and mow them all down. 

most weapons that have a function where they burst the entire magazine to maximize DPS are extremely ammo hungry if used in that fashion too often. It’s not that different from that, either. 
if you don’t like it, that’s fine- none of the features I’ve listed are mandatory. But lots of other people enjoy them. 

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, voltocitygel said:

Many spool ups (like the soma) get more accurate as they spool up,

You're probably thinking of the Tenoras.  There may be more, but I can't think of any others that do this--Soma doesn't.

 

14 minutes ago, voltocitygel said:

The entire point of the khom and khomak is a continuously ramping up source of DPS the longer you fire them.

Yeah, exactly.  Same with all of them really, it's just the Kohm family take it to another level by increasing multishot as well as RoF.

I think that gets at what may be part of the disconnect between how people view these weapons. Some seem to view it as an irredeemable hindrance.  So they don't argue for shorter spools or better spooled-up stats because no matter what it's just a roadblock, delaying them from getting to the "good stuff". 

But for me, there is some special delayed gratification to holding Tenora's trigger down and seeing it ramp up to max.  And if it didn't have the ramp-up, not only would it lose that distinct character, but it would be balanced around an average. No spooling, but also brrrrrrrrrt mode wouldn't be quite as brrrrrrrrrt-y.

Sometimes I'd rather have the high and the low than something that just stays parked somewhere in the upper-middle.  When I want that, there are a few hundred of those right there in my Arsenal.

[voltocitygel]

9 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

You're probably thinking of the Tenoras.  There may be more, but I can't think of any others that do this--Soma doesn't.

 

Yeah, exactly.  Same with all of them really, it's just the Kohm family take it to another level by increasing multishot as well as RoF.

I think that gets at what may be part of the disconnect between how people view these weapons. Some seem to view it as an irredeemable hindrance.  So they don't argue for shorter spools or better spooled-up stats because no matter what it's just a roadblock, delaying them from getting to the "good stuff". 

But for me, there is some special delayed gratification to holding Tenora's trigger down and seeing it ramp up to max.  And if it didn't have the ramp-up, not only would it lose that distinct character, but it would be balanced around an average. No spooling, but also brrrrrrrrrt mode wouldn't be quite as brrrrrrrrrt-y.

Sometimes I'd rather have the high and the low than something that just stays parked somewhere in the upper-middle.  When I want that, there are a few hundred of those right there in my Arsenal.

You’re right, I was thinking of the tenora. (I don’t use it as much as the soma- but the soma is pretty accurate for an auto weapon)

yep, that’s why I picked the khom as my example. 
I totally get the delayed gratification though, my favorite weapons are bows. The charge delay paired with the aim required to account for travel time (and in open worlds, arcing) then landing that satisfying headshot for big damage? Unmatched. 
My most used spool up specifically is probably my aksomati prime. When there are too many foes to shoot down with my bow I swap and spool up, before reaching that satisfying hail of projectiles that mows them down. 
I totally agree though, there are tons of weapons that are consistent. Full auto primaries are one of the biggest categories of weapon in the game. Tons of options for people who like consistency. 

[OmegaVoid]

On 2024-03-08 at 10:20 AM, MrDugan said:

No one would design an actual rifle like this on purpose.  In fact, for most firearms, even with caseless ammunition, you'd have to go out of your way to make it function like this.

What if the Grineer favour electronic reloading systems over gas-blowback?

Without the back-and-forth movement of the breech block in the receiver, stability would be improved, making the weapon easier to keep on target in sustained fire. And since none of the propellant gas needs to be diverted to power the reload, muzzle velocity would be somewhat higher for the same ammunition.

Of course, the battery needed for electronically-powered reloading would increase the weight of the weapon...

One solution to decrease weight would be to use the mechanical shock of recoil to drive a flywheel generator which charges up one or more capacitors. Of course there would be limits to its efficiency, and with billions of troops to supply, most of whom are cannon-fodder, the Grineer would (based upon after-action assements of various prototypes) tend towards the most parsimonious implementation viable.

So... a single shot wouldn't provide much power, thus the first reload would be quite slow, but if the weapon is discharged again before the flywheel loses momentum, the power available for the next reload would be greater, thus the reload would be faster. In sustained fire, the generator would reach a maximum capacity, at which point a limiter would need to kick in to prevent overheating -- either from electrical overload (or overvoltage across the semiconductor components), mechanical friction in the generator, or heat build-up in the breech from the sheer number of rounds being fired (risking cook-off, jammiong due to deformation of the breech, melting basrrels, etc.).

I think this provides a sufficiently reasonable (if rather "hand-wavey") explanation for why a weapon might exist which takes time to spool up to its maximum fire rate, given that it's in sci-fi game where technologies could be sufficiently further-advanced than our own to make a presently-unwieldy scheme quite feasible.

FWIW, back when I was still playing, I rather enjoyed the feel of spool-up weapons (though more-so in solo play, where one could treat the game as a shooter, than in the nuke-fest of public matchmaking).

[Azamagon]

I personally can see 2 main reasons:

1) Flavour/diversity. If you like the feel, you like it. If you don't, you don't. Personally, I mostly prefer immediate full auto weapons, but I can see why others might like it - I even have moments of liking it myself.

2) Ammo preservation potential. For me, it's easier to not waste ammo on weaker enemies with spool-up weapons, compared to immediate full auto weapons. So that is a clear upside potential, imo. Sure, this only really fully applies when shooting weaker enemies or playing on lower levels, but the point still stands.