Revenant is too much of a crutch

[-ShadowRadiance-]

I know why i choose revenant. 

To keep other tenno alive especially during SP/netracells. Where tenno who are -not- aware of what they are doing and i am to tired to run across the map playing rez bot. 

I will simply press 2. And solve that problem for a time. 

 

Is it lazy? ABSOLUTELY.

Does it give peace of mind? For 5 stacks it does.

Does it csrry tenno through missions? OH YES. 

Revenant is the carry bot. Just like having a good wisp is. 

[Aruquae]

7 minutes ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

I know why i choose revenant. 

To keep other tenno alive especially during SP/netracells. Where tenno who are -not- aware of what they are doing and i am to tired to run across the map playing rez bot. 

I will simply press 2. And solve that problem for a time. 

 

Is it lazy? ABSOLUTELY.

Does it give peace of mind? For 5 stacks it does.

Does it csrry tenno through missions? OH YES. 

Revenant is the carry bot. Just like having a good wisp is. 

Based, rare thing seeing someone who uses the augment 

[Aerikx]

18 hours ago, nslay said:

Never mind that you can very carefully remove Overguard from Leech Eximus or Guardian Eximus and use them as Thralls to instantly heal the defense objective

Shhh!

Don't share my Circuit secrets. 

Revenant, Ash, Gara, Nyx, Baruuk, and Stalker are my Rank 0 to Rank 6 or 10 (depending on Loadout RNG) frames.

The Eximus trick is why I almost immediately pick Nyx & Revenant for SP Circuit.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

1 minute ago, Aruquae said:

Based, rare thing seeing someone who uses the augment 

I have it in all my rev loadouts. 

As OP also likes to say rev not offering anything to the squad. 

I like to use helminth ALOT. 

Im fairly certain he wouldnt notice who was using roar or total eclipse

[Binket_]

I think the biggest problem with Revenant (as of right now anyway) is this:
His Mesmer Skin is so powerful that it not only makes the rest of his kit trivial, but it makes him excessively immortal for little cost.

It's all thanks to this baffling change here.

What's that? You have a decent kit involving replenishing his invincibility via moderate usage of his Thralls and Reaving them?
Yeah, let's make it so if you actually run low-- you're better off just recasting the whole ability.

Than to add to this heresy? They add Mesmer Shield, only encouraging further ignoring the rest of his kit.
It adds nothing to the ability itself besides "more charges" which is the laziest way to do it.

Yeah, I'm sure this won't be abused at all.
 

 

So to recap? We now have a kit of...

• Passive: Does a small explosion when Shields are depleted.
  • Even without spamming Mesmer Skin, you will rarely ever see this.
  • I don't even know what it looks like or how much it does SIMPLY BECAUSE it has never happened for me.
  • Wiki says it's 100 Blast Damage with 75% Damage Falloff... so that's greeeeat.
• Enthrall: Makes minions for Revenant to use.
  • About as useful as Mind Control, minus the invulnerability to give it some staying power.
    • Yes, I'm aware direct-thralls can spread.
    • No, it really doesn't matter that much unless you're solo.
    • If you are solo, you probably won't need to care anyway.
  • Also, they no longer proc On-Hit effects such as...
    • Arcanes like Arcane Acceleration.
    • Augments like Double Tap
    • Combo. (Sniper or Melee)
    • Chaining Effects (like from Nukor)
    • Etc.
  • Even if you use it for the purpose of support, the actual benefit given to you is minimal thanks to Mesmer Skin.
    • Shield Ospreys, Leech Eximus, Guardian Eximus, etc. don't matter. You are already immortal.
    • Leech Eximus, Arson Eximus, Heavy Units, etc. don't do enough damage to be useful.
      • If Mind Control with over 50k% boosted damage (possible with Target Fixation Zephyr) can't do it, neither can thralls.
    • Allies will kill them before they can even get their full effect.
    • Energy Leech Eximus MAY be useful for the added Energy... but it's such a small amount given...
    • If anything, the only REAL use is to soak up bullets for you to avoid spending Mesmer Skin charges.
      • ... but that's kinda a moot point when you can regenerate them INSTANTLY.
• Mesmer Skin: Full immortality against Damage, Status and Death at the cost of... what? 50 Energy?
  • A grace period of 1 second until another charge can be consumed.
    • With the way our power is now, you can easily get up to 30 charges.
    • That's 30 seconds STRAIGHT of just ignoring all damage, assuming you're standing still in the middle of a room full of enemies.
    • It WILL be longer if you so much as encounter less than 20 enemies, since most of them will be stunned.
  • This immunity includes Terrain Damage like Arc Coils, Explosive Barrels, etc.
    • These still damage him, but will never kill him. Arguably irrelevant damage to him as a result.
  • Technically replenished by Reave, but that implies you actually need more charges.
    • If you need more charges, just hop behind the nearest brief cover and recast.
    • ... or just do anyway without cover, you have Shields to gate with after all.
  • It's powerful enough to carry any player regardless of what they're doing or how they're doing it.
    • I dare say the only way for a player to fail is if the mission doesn't involve combat. (I.E. Spy missions.)
    • Even in the case of Spy though, thanks to the immunity of Knockdown and the existence of Ciphers? You can brute force through it no problem.
• Reave: A Dash forward with Health/Shield steal.
  • Has the cool concept of passing any Status Effects you're suffering onto any enemy target passed.
    • ... but since Mesmer Skin already blocks those, why bother?
  • It can do massive damage to thralls. Of which is based on the Max HP rather than current.
    • ... but the only reason you WOULD use Enthrall anymore is to keep them around as support ala Mind Control.
    • That or you're in Level Cap or something to that effect. ^{_{To be fair though, I imagine anybody can do that with Revenant so it's not exactly impressive... or fun.}}
  • It can be casted during Danse Macabre as a movement option.
    • ... but you're not using Danse Macabre to be mobile. Otherwise you can just uncast it.
  • It's effectively useless due to Mesmer Skin.
• Danse Macabre: Emit 5 beams that do damage. Spins, I guess.
  • You know, despite this ability having the capacity to do amazing damage via taking damage, it's extremely underwhelming for the same reasons as Caliban.
    • It's kinda boring.
    • Limits your kit dramatically.
    • It's range is limited to a very set area. Anything outside of that area is completely immune.
  • While technically damage absorbed still works even with Mesmer Skin on, we have weapons that completely outdo it's damage.
    • Weapons of which are not locked to a certain degree of firing.
    • Weapons of which are also capable of doing things like Slash procs which bypass armor or Viral which boosts damage anyway.

So with all that recap out of the way, what do we have?

A Warframe that is the definition of "One-Trick Pony".
We have 56 Warframes (and counting with Dante soon to come), not including Primes.
I THINK we can at least revert the grace period buff, giving at least SOME functionality back to Revenant's whole kit.

I've said it before and I'll keeping saying it so long as it keeps relevant:
Extreme power is fine, but it must be earned.
... and I don't mean "pay [X Scrap Metal] you picked up on [Y Planet]."
I mean put in the effort to engage with the game.

Volt isn't popular because he's raw damage, he's popular because he's a jack of all trades that can adjust his kit in fun and creative ways.
Gara can be extremely powerful, but has to upkeep equal effort to maintain that power.
Garuda can obliterate entire rooms, but needs to keep herself in check to avoid bleeding herself dry.
Nidus lacks shields, but gains extra durability through means of using his kit to it's fullest.

There is nothing wrong with "power"-- but rather how it's obtained.

 

Okay, now for some replies.

On 2024-03-03 at 12:36 PM, ArmoredDragoness said:

I mean yes but I find nyx more crutch heavy with enough efficiency and assimilate you can stay immortal indefinitely since they removed the ability to take extra damage at the cost of energy albeit you take a heavy penalty to movement and can't survive in steel path without this setup 

Funny we mention Nyx, I actually learned a LOT of Parkour tech from using Assimilate.

Because I was locked to such a slow movement, I took the time to find ways around it.
Eventually stumbling onto Dispensary enabling sliding while using Assimilate.

In that measure, I learned how to "pivot" my movements by sliding mid Melee attack animation.
So by pressing forward and sliding at the right time, I could dash even further than I would normally.
This skill ended up carrying over to- I kid you not- literally every other Warframe I use.

... but as to your comment? No, Nyx still takes Energy on hit.
Rather large amounts on Steel Path too, I was capable of making the most of it thanks to Melee though.

On 2024-03-03 at 12:48 PM, CrownOfShadows said:

I'm actually asking for Revenant buffs - give him tools to succeed.

He already has the tool to succeed. Unfortunately, they're kinda... irrelevant thanks to Mesmer Skin.

Reave alone can easily one-shot dangerous enemies.
Enthrall can soak up bullets no problem.
Danse Macabre can even work as a "build up" mechanic.

... but all of those kinda fail when Mesmer Skin just makes you THAT broken. There's no need to.

It's ironic because of the most "fun" builds I found was subsuming Nyx's Mind Control over his 4 and using his "Thrall Pact" augment to boost his damage further.
Since the main Thrall you make doesn't die immediately, it spreading actually works better over time.
Unfortunately, you're probably better off just using Roar since Mesmer Skin kinda covers for every useful aspect Mind Control WOULD be good for.

20 hours ago, Kaiga said:

because DE only balances around usage rates- and revenant is one of the most used because mesmer skin does completely trivialize surviving everything.

When I saw DE presenting the usage stats, Pablo legit said "Would having god mode help at all?" when DE saw Revenant was at the top.

I could almost hear the Vitriol on the floor, so I assume it's someone on DE's team directly preventing a nerf on him.
... y'know, until Pablo says "A'ight, enough of that."-- which he will. It's not exactly subtle.

20 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Maybe it's not DE's fault for giving us all this, maybe we should just nerf players themselves, have the game slap you with a fish for bringing anything past a certain point on most tier lists

You know, funnily enough-- I was coming up with a hypothetical system exactly like that a few months ago.
I think I put on the Forums somewhere, but the short of it _{(at the expense of all critical detail)} was basically:

"Everything the players add to their kit gives 3 possible modifier stats that affect any mission they join in various ways.
'Brawn' would be raw firepower. Making enemies deploy stronger troops in response, with some unique ones being locked to very high values.
'Agility' would be evasion or defensive powers. More enemies would be deployed that either negate defenses or counter them.
'Cunning' would cause the map to have enhanced dangers. For better or for worse, the player would have to use their abilities to their fullest with these.
Each of these can be increased/decreased based on the equipped Weapon/Warframe and what mods they have.
Each one also lowering the effects of the other two to a certain degree."

Not inherently punishing the player, but instead scaling an intended difficulty to the player in a way that can be applied to every mission universally.
So that if a player truly wishes to be a One-Trick-Pony, they may run into situations that would force them to adapt anyway.

Things like Mesmer Skin would probably be less useful if Grineer started getting Scrambus Fields to deploy, forcing it off.
But if the Revenant decided to spec into offensive-styled tactics instead, their 'Agility' stat wouldn't be enough to bring out said Scrambus Fields.

I think it's a pretty neat system!

4 hours ago, Aruquae said:

most likely wouldn’t even last 2 minutes. 

4 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

You might last a bit longer if you have Rev forma'd a lot and build up a lot of charges but still they'd get stripped away real fast.

Buddy. Pal. Friend. Amigo.
There is a whole second of a grace period between charges being consumed.

I could unironically have 30 charges easily from using Mesmer Skin, we are LOADED with Ability Strength sources.
Thus, that is- at a minimum- 30 seconds of being outright unkillable.

This is not accounting for the possibility of...

• Enemies being stunned, so they take even longer to plow through the charges.
• Helminth Abilities proc'ing, regardless of what they are. _{(Resonator, Breach Surge, Spectrorage, etc.)}
• Thralls getting in the way. For better or for worse.
• The Revenant is directly in the open for maximum enemies to shoot him.
• You somehow not noticing that your charges are down and fully letting enemies eat through your Shield Gating before you recast.

Because when I put it that way? That 30 seconds can VERY EASILY get dragged out to more than 2 minutes.
Especially if you have Specters nearby, even IF they stop firing after a while.

... and if you're AFK'ing in a squad?
Guess what, you're not dying unless someone is playing Loki (Switch Teleport) or Valkyr (Ripline) and they REALLY want you dead. _{(Not that I blame them.)}
Apparently it's just not powerful enough though.

25 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

but builds that can delete tilesets without restriction

Ah, nothing like Thermal Sunder on a Titania to greet new players in the game.

I too greatly enjoy having absolutely nothing to shoot at because the fly in the room is emitting the raw unmatched power of the sun.
... but yet, Citrine's subsume would be waaaaay too useful if they didn't nerf it. Gotta make sure people don't enjoy some decent energy orbs.

Genuinely, Thermal Sunder is another poster child of an unrelated-to-the-topic issue. 
The best part is that a Revenant can ALSO do this. God forbid we have anything slightly tolerable in this game.

16 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

*as long as they aren't explicitly failing the mission by bombing a spy vault or something, which is not a Revenant issue.

I mean... sure, not a Revenant issue specifically.
But it is enabling them in a way. "I cannot die, therefore I must be doing something right."

Critical thinking is a learned skill and this will only get more obvious as the years go on. Even outside of Warframe.
People cannot regulate themselves if there's nothing to hold them back. This is the sole reason why the "Cursed Item" trope works so well.

13 minutes ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

To keep other tenno alive especially during SP/netracells.

If this were 2018 in the Pre-Shield Gate era? I'd believe that.
... but it's not. It's really not. Dumb people WILL march to their grave, no matter how much you try.
^{I speak from experience. A LOT of experience, even outside of Warframe. The horrors of a White Mage's experience need not be seen by mortal eyes.}

It's funny in a way, back than? People were A LOT more cautious with how they played.
Mainly because if there wasn't a support? You WERE three seconds from death and you HAD to play like it.
... which isn't a bad thing. People all over managed to do it just fine, because that's what was expected of them.

Nowadays? I have to TRY and soak up as much damage as I can to die in some missions.

4 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Don't share my Circuit secrets.

If it makes you feel any better, Trinity's Well of Life also temporarily converts enemies into allies.
This does stop their AI, but I recall things like Shield Drones being able to still use their passive effects.

The more you learn!

 

[-ShadowRadiance-]

2 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

but it's not. It's really not. Dumb people WILL march to their grave, no matter how much you try.
^{I speak from experience. A LOT of experience, even outside of Warframe. The horrors of a White Mage's experience need not be seen by mortal eyes.}

And thats exactly why i use revs augment. Dont underestemate peoples ability to think: 'i got this! I xan solo all of th--OOH GODS MAMA HELP ME'

 

((The horrors seen by local sages running old alliance raids like orbonne for the fun of it shall also not be mentioned. 

So many dead mentors... not one mechanic known...))

[Binket_]

1 minute ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

The horrors seen by local sages running old alliance raids

For all intents and purposes, we REALLY need to bring back the old reliance on Support Warframes.
Mainly just to have people can realize how much I actually carry them when I decide to play one.

"Either Trinity is useless or you're just that bad to die as Revenant anyway.
But here's the thing chief, I can't outheal stupid."
~ An actual line I've had to say in Warframe, rather recently actually.

 

I have always been the appointed White Mage/Cleric/Healer/etc. in any group.
This hasn't changed in Warframe, it's just that everyone is _(allegedly) powerful enough that I don't need to play Support.
Yet despite that, I somehow find myself playing Trinity on some days and STILL finding people needing it.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

4 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I have always been the appointed White Mage/Cleric/Healer/etc. in any group.

A fellow babysitter(healer) main! HI

5 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

STILL finding people needing it.

Yea.. its more common then people realise.. 

Even if i run molt reconstruct on all my frames i still find -someone-who manages to off themselves as if self damage was still in the game.. its amazin tho.. there is always one..

[Aerikx]

9 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I have always been the appointed White Mage/Cleric/Healer/etc. in any group.
This hasn't changed in Warframe, it's just that everyone is _(allegedly) powerful enough that I don't need to play Support.
Yet despite that, I somehow find myself playing Trinity on some days and STILL finding people needing it.

I actually prefer to be Support/Heals. I usually role support oriented characters and/or invisible capable because I prefer to hang back, be out of sight, and support via CC, healing, buffs, or precision kills. 

That said (As I am an Ash main) I do enjoy when I get to pull out Harrow, Oberon, and Trinity as it's wonderful that my support isn't limited to being an assassin or dropping well timed bubbles (Frost) or powerful healing Damage Reduction shields (Gara). 

Ironically I enjoy the rare times I play revenant because like someone leaked. I often use Eximus to buff the group in amazing ways. Many of them never notice....and kill my enthralled Eximus. 🥲

[Aevire]

Revenant needs a rework in general. Mesmer Shield is just problematically designed to be an invincibility button. I would personally like to see it become an improvement to Revenant's shields, with charges increasing the duration of his shield gate by the same duration, which would still make it an invincibility button but would encourage people to build for not just pure strength.

If that isn't practical, I think that changing its scaling would be another possible solution. I have two proposed changes that I think could be implemented one at a time to fine tune the power of the ability. Lowering the invincibility duration to .25-.3s and adding scaling with Ability Duration would both make that stat more relevant on Revenant and force players to not just build pure Power Strength. Changing the way the ability scales with Strength, so that it always offers, say, 3 charges, plus 3 (scaling with Ability Strength) would be a simple nerf but wouldn't significantly harm the floor of the ability or make Strength a direct dump stat on Revenant like how Khora can use Accumulating Whipclaw to not care about it.

I understand that a lot of players are going to be upset when Revenant is changed or nerfed but until this ability is retuned it will always be a problem, forcing end-game content either to rely on systems which prevent or disincentivize you from choosing Revenant (e.g. Circuit/Deep Archimedea systems) or to be plastered with Nullifiers or enemies like Circuit Jackal which can just straight up delete defensive abilities, I would rather Revenant be reworked to have four good abilities than to have one ability which turns on godmode and no other abilities.

[ZantenZan]

15 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

The thing is, no other frame has immortality. Being lazy as Rhino, Nezha or Ivara is not the same as being lazy with Revenant.

...how so? Nezha, granted, operates more on damage reduction than on outright damage absorption, but I've found absolute minimal evasive efforts enough to stretch that out just fine, even when running the mission by myself with all enemies aiming at me. I still wouldn't have to fight to stay alive against them, just keep moving. In a team match where there are three other teammates (and, for a Defense mission, a mission objective,) I'd barely even have to do that, just refresh the ability when it expires instead.

Rhino does actually negate damage taken while Iron Skin is active, instead stripping that damage from his built-up Armor, and even if you aren't relying on some of the crazy '1 million armor' builds, timing your activations well and keeping energy costs under control keep him delightfully tanky in his own rights. Again, all without actually having to help in any way.

Ivara isn't immortal while using Prowl, but if someone's invisible and keeping out of the fray what does that matter? She still needs to get hit to take damage (hit twice in a certain window to get past shieldgating,) and nobody would be aiming at her. I have an Ivara specced for Spy missions and with a quick Energy top-off beforehand I can apparently keep Prowl running continuously for over 15 minutes. Longer if I occasionally bounce into the fight to grab energy pickups. As far as 'AFKable' Warframes go, she'd likely be the best suited.

Don't get me wrong, Revenant is super tanky in his own right, in part because his defense ability doesn't rely on damage numbers, meaning Mesmer Skin is just as effective against a level 1 enemy as it is against a level 500 enemy. (Ironically this makes it a pretty poor tank ability for low level missions.) Very rare things can bypass it completely (like Void explosions or a particular 'fog' effect the yellow Archon uses,) and anything that negates active abilities like certain bosses or falling off the map will turn it off entirely. More to the point, though, it only has a certain number of charges. You mentioned you bet most Revenants don't use Mesmer Shield, that mod that lets you give your teammates stacks, i.e. contributing a buff to the team. If so, then they also wouldn't get the +50% buff to its strength; so, relying solely on a modded Ability Strength of, say, 220%, we're looking at maybe 11-12 charges? It's a good bit of resilience, but hardly a 'set it and forget it' ability.

His survivability does improve a lot when you use a combination of Mesmer Skin and turning Thralls to break up enemy aggro. But that reduction in enemy aggro is something the full team indirectly benefits from, because every enemy targeting a Thrall is one less enemy targeting you or a Defense objective.

Again, you were asking how someone would feel running a mission with 2-3 Revenants. You know how I'd feel? Functionally immortal, even without shared Mesmer skin charges. Because between all the Thralls, and all the enemies targeting the Thralls, almost nobody would be trying to shoot me. :P

[EternaldrkMako]

i mean i can see the issues, plenty of frames with neigh invulnerability /survivability have been hit in the past for balance and afk prevention

in revs case he also applies this to squads with his augment, and his 1 power prevent allies from killing the thralls with their powers (normal weapons work fine) 

in review of testing id say its obvious him and a variety of frames need QOl /changes to keep balance as with prior incidents. that being said DE does also play favoritism and or ignores problems till its boiling point is overflowing in a variety of cases, or kneejerk nerf based off an event (like scarlet spear healing nerfs) 

id say revents issue is not that he can survive anything but how the invulnerability lasts and stacks , in valkyrs case we have to deactivate eventually, with revenenat and shock + archon stretch you can infinitely keep up that power and build up a nice defense. its to a point hes outdoing frames that were geared with the concept of tanking such as rhino,nezha, gara, grendel,inaros,nidus, ect 

 this isnt to say rev cant be strong, but it was designed much like garuda in the vampiric theme + wraith anmd kit could be worked to build that same tankiness with powers synergizing

as it stands revs  1 piggybacks off 2 for free cast and has limited thrall count (imo these shouldn't be killable by allies much like nyx mind control) as when cast, they are removed from enemy pool anyway , and if only rev should kill to then activate the power 4 synergy of shield providing for self and allies and AOE attack turrets as is typical 

problem is scalability , infact his 3 is scaled off hp/shields which is nice to melt enemies , but there could be more to it 

say cast 3 on 1 thralls and gain stacks to 2 off killing them (aka feeding on them) but disallow 2 to be recast-able until fully depleted. thats one concept ive seen 

it just seems like the kit needs more interconnection/activity to provide balancing and or scaling with effort instead of face tanking without much effort ,instead casting 2 all the time and using aoe weapons...is what im coming to understand, this seems like wukong all over again ....?

i mean revs 4, is powerful ,but hits a peak eventually , and becomes less viable you progress in 1k+ enemies level , in 30sub it melts but so do most well modded aoe powers..

another thing i read was take 2's core aka invulnerability and have it cast initially with a low number but killing thralls or reaping via 3 , up the number over time to prevent over scale 

In conclusion:

id have to say based on what ive read, tested and reviewed in combat its a bit excessive

Now im not saying this should go the route of trinity, aka nerf to DEATH, but then it should be reworked to interweave the powers and maybe bring more vampiric/wraith themes to the kits synergy and uses between them ,to make it still capable and viable but also active and useful is my best suggestion.

 

 

Edited March 4 by EternaldrkMako

[PR1D3]

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

I think the biggest problem with Revenant (as of right now anyway) is this:
His Mesmer Skin is so powerful that it not only makes the rest of his kit trivial, but it makes him excessively immortal for little cost.

It's all thanks to this baffling change here.

What's that? You have a decent kit involving replenishing his invincibility via moderate usage of his Thralls and Reaving them?
Yeah, let's make it so if you actually run low-- you're better off just recasting the whole ability.

Than to add to this heresy? They add Mesmer Shield, only encouraging further ignoring the rest of his kit.
It adds nothing to the ability itself besides "more charges" which is the laziest way to do it.

Yeah, I'm sure this won't be abused at all.
 

 

So to recap? We now have a kit of...

• Passive: Does a small explosion when Shields are depleted.
  • Even without spamming Mesmer Skin, you will rarely ever see this.
  • I don't even know what it looks like or how much it does SIMPLY BECAUSE it has never happened for me.
  • Wiki says it's 100 Blast Damage with 75% Damage Falloff... so that's greeeeat.
• Enthrall: Makes minions for Revenant to use.
  • About as useful as Mind Control, minus the invulnerability to give it some staying power.
    • Yes, I'm aware direct-thralls can spread.
    • No, it really doesn't matter that much unless you're solo.
    • If you are solo, you probably won't need to care anyway.
  • Also, they no longer proc On-Hit effects such as...
    • Arcanes like Arcane Acceleration.
    • Augments like Double Tap
    • Combo. (Sniper or Melee)
    • Chaining Effects (like from Nukor)
    • Etc.
  • Even if you use it for the purpose of support, the actual benefit given to you is minimal thanks to Mesmer Skin.
    • Shield Ospreys, Leech Eximus, Guardian Eximus, etc. don't matter. You are already immortal.
    • Leech Eximus, Arson Eximus, Heavy Units, etc. don't do enough damage to be useful.
      • If Mind Control with over 50k% boosted damage (possible with Target Fixation Zephyr) can't do it, neither can thralls.
    • Allies will kill them before they can even get their full effect.
    • Energy Leech Eximus MAY be useful for the added Energy... but it's such a small amount given...
    • If anything, the only REAL use is to soak up bullets for you to avoid spending Mesmer Skin charges.
      • ... but that's kinda a moot point when you can regenerate them INSTANTLY.
• Mesmer Skin: Full immortality against Damage, Status and Death at the cost of... what? 50 Energy?
  • A grace period of 1 second until another charge can be consumed.
    • With the way our power is now, you can easily get up to 30 charges.
    • That's 30 seconds STRAIGHT of just ignoring all damage, assuming you're standing still in the middle of a room full of enemies.
    • It WILL be longer if you so much as encounter less than 20 enemies, since most of them will be stunned.
  • This immunity includes Terrain Damage like Arc Coils, Explosive Barrels, etc.
    • These still damage him, but will never kill him. Arguably irrelevant damage to him as a result.
  • Technically replenished by Reave, but that implies you actually need more charges.
    • If you need more charges, just hop behind the nearest brief cover and recast.
    • ... or just do anyway without cover, you have Shields to gate with after all.
  • It's powerful enough to carry any player regardless of what they're doing or how they're doing it.
    • I dare say the only way for a player to fail is if the mission doesn't involve combat. (I.E. Spy missions.)
    • Even in the case of Spy though, thanks to the immunity of Knockdown and the existence of Ciphers? You can brute force through it no problem.
• Reave: A Dash forward with Health/Shield steal.
  • Has the cool concept of passing any Status Effects you're suffering onto any enemy target passed.
    • ... but since Mesmer Skin already blocks those, why bother?
  • It can do massive damage to thralls. Of which is based on the Max HP rather than current.
    • ... but the only reason you WOULD use Enthrall anymore is to keep them around as support ala Mind Control.
    • That or you're in Level Cap or something to that effect. ^{_{To be fair though, I imagine anybody can do that with Revenant so it's not exactly impressive... or fun.}}
  • It can be casted during Danse Macabre as a movement option.
    • ... but you're not using Danse Macabre to be mobile. Otherwise you can just uncast it.
  • It's effectively useless due to Mesmer Skin.
• Danse Macabre: Emit 5 beams that do damage. Spins, I guess.
  • You know, despite this ability having the capacity to do amazing damage via taking damage, it's extremely underwhelming for the same reasons as Caliban.
    • It's kinda boring.
    • Limits your kit dramatically.
    • It's range is limited to a very set area. Anything outside of that area is completely immune.
  • While technically damage absorbed still works even with Mesmer Skin on, we have weapons that completely outdo it's damage.
    • Weapons of which are not locked to a certain degree of firing.
    • Weapons of which are also capable of doing things like Slash procs which bypass armor or Viral which boosts damage anyway.

So with all that recap out of the way, what do we have?

A Warframe that is the definition of "One-Trick Pony".
We have 56 Warframes (and counting with Dante soon to come), not including Primes.
I THINK we can at least revert the grace period buff, giving at least SOME functionality back to Revenant's whole kit.

I've said it before and I'll keeping saying it so long as it keeps relevant:
Extreme power is fine, but it must be earned.
... and I don't mean "pay [X Scrap Metal] you picked up on [Y Planet]."
I mean put in the effort to engage with the game.

Volt isn't popular because he's raw damage, he's popular because he's a jack of all trades that can adjust his kit in fun and creative ways.
Gara can be extremely powerful, but has to upkeep equal effort to maintain that power.
Garuda can obliterate entire rooms, but needs to keep herself in check to avoid bleeding herself dry.
Nidus lacks shields, but gains extra durability through means of using his kit to it's fullest.

There is nothing wrong with "power"-- but rather how it's obtained.

 

Okay, now for some replies.

Funny we mention Nyx, I actually learned a LOT of Parkour tech from using Assimilate.

Because I was locked to such a slow movement, I took the time to find ways around it.
Eventually stumbling onto Dispensary enabling sliding while using Assimilate.

In that measure, I learned how to "pivot" my movements by sliding mid Melee attack animation.
So by pressing forward and sliding at the right time, I could dash even further than I would normally.
This skill ended up carrying over to- I kid you not- literally every other Warframe I use.

... but as to your comment? No, Nyx still takes Energy on hit.
Rather large amounts on Steel Path too, I was capable of making the most of it thanks to Melee though.

He already has the tool to succeed. Unfortunately, they're kinda... irrelevant thanks to Mesmer Skin.

Reave alone can easily one-shot dangerous enemies.
Enthrall can soak up bullets no problem.
Danse Macabre can even work as a "build up" mechanic.

... but all of those kinda fail when Mesmer Skin just makes you THAT broken. There's no need to.

It's ironic because of the most "fun" builds I found was subsuming Nyx's Mind Control over his 4 and using his "Thrall Pact" augment to boost his damage further.
Since the main Thrall you make doesn't die immediately, it spreading actually works better over time.
Unfortunately, you're probably better off just using Roar since Mesmer Skin kinda covers for every useful aspect Mind Control WOULD be good for.

When I saw DE presenting the usage stats, Pablo legit said "Would having god mode help at all?" when DE saw Revenant was at the top.

I could almost hear the Vitriol on the floor, so I assume it's someone on DE's team directly preventing a nerf on him.
... y'know, until Pablo says "A'ight, enough of that."-- which he will. It's not exactly subtle.

You know, funnily enough-- I was coming up with a hypothetical system exactly like that a few months ago.
I think I put on the Forums somewhere, but the short of it _{(at the expense of all critical detail)} was basically:

"Everything the players add to their kit gives 3 possible modifier stats that affect any mission they join in various ways.
'Brawn' would be raw firepower. Making enemies deploy stronger troops in response, with some unique ones being locked to very high values.
'Agility' would be evasion or defensive powers. More enemies would be deployed that either negate defenses or counter them.
'Cunning' would cause the map to have enhanced dangers. For better or for worse, the player would have to use their abilities to their fullest with these.
Each of these can be increased/decreased based on the equipped Weapon/Warframe and what mods they have.
Each one also lowering the effects of the other two to a certain degree."

Not inherently punishing the player, but instead scaling an intended difficulty to the player in a way that can be applied to every mission universally.
So that if a player truly wishes to be a One-Trick-Pony, they may run into situations that would force them to adapt anyway.

Things like Mesmer Skin would probably be less useful if Grineer started getting Scrambus Fields to deploy, forcing it off.
But if the Revenant decided to spec into offensive-styled tactics instead, their 'Agility' stat wouldn't be enough to bring out said Scrambus Fields.

I think it's a pretty neat system!

Buddy. Pal. Friend. Amigo.
There is a whole second of a grace period between charges being consumed.

I could unironically have 30 charges easily from using Mesmer Skin, we are LOADED with Ability Strength sources.
Thus, that is- at a minimum- 30 seconds of being outright unkillable.

This is not accounting for the possibility of...

• Enemies being stunned, so they take even longer to plow through the charges.
• Helminth Abilities proc'ing, regardless of what they are. _{(Resonator, Breach Surge, Spectrorage, etc.)}
• Thralls getting in the way. For better or for worse.
• The Revenant is directly in the open for maximum enemies to shoot him.
• You somehow not noticing that your charges are down and fully letting enemies eat through your Shield Gating before you recast.

Because when I put it that way? That 30 seconds can VERY EASILY get dragged out to more than 2 minutes.
Especially if you have Specters nearby, even IF they stop firing after a while.

... and if you're AFK'ing in a squad?
Guess what, you're not dying unless someone is playing Loki (Switch Teleport) or Valkyr (Ripline) and they REALLY want you dead. _{(Not that I blame them.)}
Apparently it's just not powerful enough though.

Ah, nothing like Thermal Sunder on a Titania to greet new players in the game.

I too greatly enjoy having absolutely nothing to shoot at because the fly in the room is emitting the raw unmatched power of the sun.
... but yet, Citrine's subsume would be waaaaay too useful if they didn't nerf it. Gotta make sure people don't enjoy some decent energy orbs.

Genuinely, Thermal Sunder is another poster child of an unrelated-to-the-topic issue. 
The best part is that a Revenant can ALSO do this. God forbid we have anything slightly tolerable in this game.

I mean... sure, not a Revenant issue specifically.
But it is enabling them in a way. "I cannot die, therefore I must be doing something right."

Critical thinking is a learned skill and this will only get more obvious as the years go on. Even outside of Warframe.
People cannot regulate themselves if there's nothing to hold them back. This is the sole reason why the "Cursed Item" trope works so well.

If this were 2018 in the Pre-Shield Gate era? I'd believe that.
... but it's not. It's really not. Dumb people WILL march to their grave, no matter how much you try.
^{I speak from experience. A LOT of experience, even outside of Warframe. The horrors of a White Mage's experience need not be seen by mortal eyes.}

It's funny in a way, back than? People were A LOT more cautious with how they played.
Mainly because if there wasn't a support? You WERE three seconds from death and you HAD to play like it.
... which isn't a bad thing. People all over managed to do it just fine, because that's what was expected of them.

Nowadays? I have to TRY and soak up as much damage as I can to die in some missions.

If it makes you feel any better, Trinity's Well of Life also temporarily converts enemies into allies.
This does stop their AI, but I recall things like Shield Drones being able to still use their passive effects.

The more you learn!

 

This. All this. I was worried I would had to type all this on a phone or cite older posts of me mentioning this. This Tenno plays Revenant. I had mentioned that Mesmer Skin change in my first post here and he went and got the actual patch note post.

I really like Rev but that Mesmer Skin change was like a monkey’s paw. His kit has such an amazing synergy of killing your thralls with Danse you can make oversheild pick ups, lowering their health just enough with Reave, while also replenishing your Mesmer stacks, with energy pillars made from Alpha thralls making new ones on the fly is so nice. If done correctly you could keep MS stacks pre buff but as @Binket_ said that buff kind of invalidates it due to the lowering of the bar/making it super easy.

[PR1D3]

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

For all intents and purposes, we REALLY need to bring back the old reliance on Support Warframes.
Mainly just to have people can realize how much I actually carry them when I decide to play one.

"Either Trinity is useless or you're just that bad to die as Revenant anyway.
But here's the thing chief, I can't outheal stupid."
~ An actual line I've had to say in Warframe, rather recently actually.

 

I have always been the appointed White Mage/Cleric/Healer/etc. in any group.
This hasn't changed in Warframe, it's just that everyone is _(allegedly) powerful enough that I don't need to play Support.
Yet despite that, I somehow find myself playing Trinity on some days and STILL finding people needing it.

Also this. YES. YES. I don’t want to go into rant mode but people greatly overestimate their capabilities without one. I kind of blame the YouTubers fluffing up sheet raw damage over anything else. If I have to hear that “the best status effect is dead” one more time I’m going to flip. I think at this point my most played frames are support frames. Especially when running pubs I notice when I don’t play a support in the background and keep everyone alive. Some people are better off not copying some crazy, shield gating cheese build from the internet.

[Binket_]

13 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

This Tenno plays Revenant.

I most assuredly do not.
Not in the typical sense most do, I just played him enough to know how he works.

I do that with all Warframes. Even the ones I don't like, I try to make it work to a degree I can tolerate it at. (I.E. Octavia, Khora, Inaros, etc.)
Some work, some don't. _{^{(There is no saving Octavia.}}

12 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Also this. YES. YES. I don’t want to go into rant mode but people greatly overestimate their capabilities without one.

I think what effectively killed the (traditional) Support role in Warframe was Shield-Gating.

It was a double-edged sword. On one hand, people don't have to be glued to an Oberon to run something like Mot.
... on the other, people don't have to be glued to an Oberon to run something like Mot.
It was more expression of one's kit at the expense of core game mechanics.
Shield-gating didn't outright kill difficulty, but it was a major catalyst in neutering it.

Would I revert Shield-gating? No, not really. Do I think it's a good solution? Not even close.

 

... but what I can ABSOLUTELY say is that above all else?
Revenant's Mesmer Skin is- without a doubt- NOT a good answer to these concerns.

[PR1D3]

32 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I most assuredly do not.
Not in the typical sense most do, I just played him enough to know how he works.

I do that with all Warframes. Even the ones I don't like, I try to make it work to a degree I can tolerate it at. (I.E. Octavia, Khora, Inaros, etc.)
Some work, some don't. _{^{(There is no saving Octavia.}}

lol fair enough. I kind of do the same, especially for new frames. I don’t look at anyone else’s stuff. I read abilities, stats, energy costs and just start pondering, theory crafting and testing. It’s just that many people just don’t do any of that. You clearly do have an amazing grasp of him. Most people don’t know stuff like Reave clearing and transferring status effects to enemies. The only thing you missed were the over shield generation from Danse Macabre kills,but 99% kit knowledge is still solid.

[Aerikx]

18 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Shield-gating didn't outright kill difficult

Difficulty was never really a factor. 

With Warframe being a horde slayer RPG of sorts. Enemies can only be so 'tough'. 

They scale until they become gods to keep it short and sweet. 

Being one shot, and having to pump 100 Billion shots into 1 for isn't difficult. 

The difficulty topic ultimately leads to one conversation...

Either they game gets fundamentally changed; Ala: Duviri or it gets accepted as is. 

Duviri being a prime example of what Warframe "Could" be if it focused more of difficulty.

IE: Mechanically, melee was far more involved and until decrees start stacking and overpowering the player, the combat is generally what people claim they want.

But notice how in Duviri NPCs are not in the dozens let alone hundreds. Additionally the player is typically very weak (with Warframes serving as a get out of jail/rage mode) 

I bring this up because, the kind of AI players claim they want, the kind of challenge they want, the kind of solo & group experience they want all essentially would involve shifting the game to a more Duviri-like experience. 

And something tells me, that's 1 wish the majority don't want the Monkey's Paw to hear. 

[Binket_]

1 hour ago, Aerikx said:

With Warframe being a horde slayer RPG of sorts. Enemies can only be so 'tough'.

Ironically enough, you're thinking of difficulty in terms of "today"-- but back than?

Level 60 enemies (and their respective AI) were actually pretty tough.
Mainly because we didn't have that much to work with in terms of defenses. _{(Most you can commonly get was probably Valkyr's 4.)}
The AI we fought suitable for the stats involved, most things still died fairly quickly-- but outside of Atterax blending a room? _{(which NEEDED to go)}
We needed to play smart and play fast-- since we often lacked the outright damage to just "kill first, think later" strategy we have today.

Nowadays, you can go high as Level 300 and barely feel anything with most Warframes. There's just no need to be concerned.
In a sense, the tables have flipped-- but the enemy remains the same. We're now capable of withstanding everything and dealing massive damage.
The only thing that hasn't changed is our speed. If anything, we've only gone up.

It's entirely possible for enemies to be threatening on a decent scale again without the need for a gargiga amount of stat buffing.
An earlier reply touched on a system directly for that.

 

But I disgress. The point was that Shield-Gating didn't "kill difficulty", but it was the unchecked catalyst that slowly crept our power out of control.
In-of-itself wasn't bad. Shields were utterly useless for the longest time.
If you keep buffing and never really stopping to consider nerfs or what you're buffing-- it's gonna get unbalanced fast.

Enemies were never truly "tough"-- but they were "acceptable" to a degree back than.
DE keeps buffing us nonstop as of late, but never stopped to buff the OTHER side.
Like a god in a sandbox, once you've achieved it all... what's the point?

[ECCHOSIERRA]

5 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

I have it in all my rev loadouts. 

As OP also likes to say rev not offering anything to the squad. 

I like to use helminth ALOT. 

Im fairly certain he wouldnt notice who was using roar or total eclipse

>can give whole squad 5 stacks of mesmer skin and basically keep them immortal/immune to status

>you can slap roar or something else on there and buff the whole team.

>any number of weapons are OP enough for him to keep up in terms of kills/damage in most squads.

 

He DoEsNt CoNtRiBuTe

 

This is why i think the salt is from an underlying skill issue. That should be MORE than enough.

[Aerikx]

54 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

In a sense, the tables have flipped

To be fair though. One of Warframe's sore points back then was that Warframes didn't FEEL like the mythology they were supposed to be. 

I remember jokes and memes about this ancient all powerful warrior cast, but then Captain Vor and regular grunts would just be spanking them in their sleep. 

Yeah, the tables flipped but it's honestly much more lore accurate to a degree.

56 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

The point was that Shield-Gating didn't "kill difficulty", but it was the unchecked catalyst that slowly crept our power out of control.
In-of-itself wasn't bad. Shields were utterly useless for the longest time.
If you keep buffing and never really stopping to consider nerfs or what you're buffing-- it's gonna get unbalanced fast.

You're not wrong. But Shields were an absolute joke before. Hell, folks used to ask for them to outright be removed and HP get buffed because they were so useless. 

Shield Gating IMPO is fine as it prevents the damage insta killing ppl through shields. 

Honestly I feel like the new mechanic they added to Gating was unnecessary. It was fine as a stop gap and IMPO needed to stay that way. 

But tbh...

Warframe could use a stat pass and combat rework  Which would nerf players and NPCs.

Honestly...

I think Duviri was them testing the water to see how the community would respond.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

7 hours ago, Binket_ said:

[massive wall of text]

[quxier]

On 2024-03-03 at 2:57 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

 

1. Revenant allows low level (and low-skill) players to play high level content without contributing anything.

At least you don't have to constantly revive him

 

[SirZorba]

I am terribly sleep deprived right now so this is probably a horrible idea, but I just imagined a version of Revenant that has Mesmer Skin(without the 1 second cooldown on losing charges) as his passive instead of...whatever it is now. Charges could be built up passively by his other abilities but would be chewed through just as quickly, meaning to keep them up you'd have to actually make use of the rest of his kit. Churning through a cycle of creating new thralls and blowing them up as the current kit is intended to function. I don't know what I'd add to replace his 2 though. Maybe something to "bite" a thrall and sacrifice it for a heal/different buff/spread more enthralls in an aoe?

[RichardKam]

8小时前 , Binket_ 说:

I think the biggest problem with Revenant (as of right now anyway) is this:
His Mesmer Skin is so powerful that it not only makes the rest of his kit trivial, but it makes him excessively immortal for little cost.

His kit by itself is trivial.

Enthrall is a weak CC. Reave is a joke. Spin to win is useless beyond level 40.

He has no damage buff, no nuke, no debuff, no armor strip, nothing.

He is useless in ESO, eidolon, profit taker, for cracking relics, for farming resources, for speed running any missions. He has nothing against acolyte, demolyst, lich and sister.

Everyone complained about his mesmer skin because mesmer skin is literally the only thing worth mentioning, and yet people keep calling him "extremely powerful". Anyone who have spent more than a few hundred hours in this game should have at least a handful of immortality frames that was not as boring as Revenant.

Going back to OP original question. The problem is new players not contributing anything. It has nothing to do with Revenant per se. People may as well use perma invisible Loki or Ivara and stay in the corner doing nothing.

[Aevire]

On 2024-03-04 at 10:52 AM, ZantenZan said:

...how so? Nezha, granted, operates more on damage reduction than on outright damage absorption, but I've found absolute minimal evasive efforts enough to stretch that out just fine

There's the kicker. That is precisely the difference between Revenant and every other defensive frame in the game. Every other frame in the game has some sort of upkeep or rhythm required for their survivability to work. Rhino has to devote his entire build to getting a ton of armor, up to and including helminthing the shields to armor ability, and he has to devote so much of his build to the augments (ironclad charge, armor or even shield mods, iron shrapnel, helminth slot, etc.,) to getting a ton of overguard which is still finite by the way. Nezha or every other frame with a survivability ability which doesn't actually make them ignore damage still has to pay attention - do evasive efforts, keep track of health and shield and halo, etc. Octavia, Ivara, Loki, and Ash remain very vulnerable to AoE such as eximus circles, and in the case of Octavia and Ivara have to actively maintain their cloak or in the case of Ivara restrict their movement in order to stay alive. Loki and Ash's invisibility abilities are also duration-based, requiring constant energy and input upkeep that is substantially more involved than the maintenance and upkeep required for Revenant.

Revenant gets to literally just max strength and run whatever other helminth ability he wants. He doesn't have to invest in survivability mods, doesn't have to restrict his movement, only has to recast mesmer shield when it runs out instead of every 12 seconds, and while he's invulnerable he's only really ever got to worry about having his abilities turned off, which incidentally is equally dangerous to all of those other frames. His survivability button is by far the strongest, with the least weaknesses, and has the least upkeep. The problem with his godmode isn't that warframes are functionally immortal with the right setup, it's that his functional immortality is braindead. It's not a fundamentally broken ability that has to be removed from the game - it just needs to be nerfed and brought in line with the RoI that every other functional immortality button has.

On 2024-03-04 at 5:00 PM, Aerikx said:

Warframe could use a stat pass and combat rework  Which would nerf players and NPCs.

Honestly...

I think Duviri was them testing the water to see how the community would respond.

Strongly agree with both points. Warframe's scaling is just insane. The fact that survivability is largely a binary - either alive or dead - means that danger can't really be a major factor in endgame content like how most other MMOs, even shooters like Destiny, can use that as a resource the player has to keep track of and manage (instead of a game system which you're trying to find the most efficient way to ignore). Similarly, damage scaling by players against enemies is also insane - because you have to be able to basically oneshot everything and scaling is exponential you have to have these absurd damage numbers which also make it so that the difference between a mostly built midgame build and an endgame build is many orders of magnitude apart. It means that only rarely do you ever see a lot of the really cool and interesting choices in 'utility' mods (magazine warp, ammo stock, etc.,) and pretty much only when a situation deletes one of the damage systems from the game (Felarx/Phenmor/Laetum deleting crit, Nightwatch Napalm deleting a bunch of the damage scaling in the game, enemies that are status immune or status capped, damage attenuation). If the health of fodder enemies scaled differently than the health of enemies who [DE] wanted us to have higher TTK - so that we could still blend crowds and Whipclaw our way through Mot without those guns also necessarily one shotting Fragmented One in the absence of the system that makes damage increases largely useless - we could have a greater build diversity while also making boss health pools matter, but that would require massive systems reworks.

It's a real shame they keep testing these waters by introducing systems which also delete the reason people play Warframe in the first place (its movement). Duviri and world bosses were both made to make damage a challenge (lol madurai, lol decrees) but Duviri is just Soulframe ported into the game. They keep bundling these sensible and interesting systems changes with the removal of perfectly fine and beloved systems (movement, warframe abilities etc) and then they get huge backlash because they built an entire game in the span of one update and surprise surprise that game is less fun and polished and developed than the game they've been working on for almost 11 years. I think they should do more updates like Lua's Prey or Abyss of Dagath largely centered around improvements to existing systems and see how we respond to that rather than using "we replaced the game you like with Dark Souls with flying horses" to test the waters on changing the normal game. Where are our tileset reworks? The Archon Mods are some of the coolest rewards we've ever seen in the game offering a ton of build diversity and new options for a ton of warframes and they're locked behind a slow shooter with a small level pool and several extremely frustrating levels. If they just spent all the time they spent on these content islands on improvements to the base game then it'd be much easier to imagine and design end game content for the base game.