Whats wrong with Tenno´s? Or am I the a***ole?

[PollexMessier]

I got annoyed at a thermal tsunder titania the other day when we loaded into a gift of the lotus alert with an MR 2 player. Dude acted like it'd kill him to take an extra minute to let the new player actually experience the game.

The elevator thing pisses me off every time. It's so stupid.

[SirZorba]

10 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Even though it's not the subject of the thread. I do wish DE would remove elevators from the game. They serve no real purpose other than to break the pace of the mission and are merely a holdover from back when Warframe was much slower paced than it is now.

They don't need to remove elevators, they just need to be updated to work like the ones on void tilesets where the upper door opens regardless of where the actual lift is. That way the wannabe speedrunners can keep moving without disrupting the rest of the squad or slowing themselves down by having to wait at extraction.

And frankly, Warframe moving a bit back towards that slower pace would be a good thing. It's gotten way too fast, way too out of control at this point.

Edited March 8 by SirZorba

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

2 hours ago, SirZorba said:

And frankly, Warframe moving a bit back towards that slower pace would be a good thing. It's gotten way too fast, way too out of control at this point.

No. I'm gonna have to disagree with that. The high speed and kinetic playstyle is one the biggest appeals of the game. It's part of why people enjoy playing frames like Wukong, Gauss and Titania while simultaneously hating the Kahl missions. Let's not forget the reactions when Void Dash was nerfed to become Void Sling. If people want a slower game, they can go play something else that is more their speed.

[SirZorba]

1 hour ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

No. I'm gonna have to disagree with that. The high speed and kinetic playstyle is one the biggest appeals of the game. It's part of why people enjoy playing frames like Wukong, Gauss and Titania while simultaneously hating the Kahl missions. Let's not forget the reactions when Void Dash was nerfed to become Void Sling. If people want a slower game, they can go play something else that is more their speed.

I'm not necessarily talking pure movement speed, and I'm definitely not asking to go anywhere as far back as pre-bulletjump or anything. But I quit ~4 years ago and recently came back and it feels like a completely different game in terms of how single-minded people are about just gogogogogogogo through a mission. Stuff dies too fast, people don't have to even stop to look at the enemies as they fly past and spam [room nuke of choice] on their way to extraction.

Relic runs always felt like this but it seemed like it was mostly limited to those back then. Now it's every mission. Even Railjack feels like it's been neutered to cater to that mindset, where all you really need to do is fly forward and spam seeker volley to get into the "real" mission.

And I'd argue there are also plenty of other turbospastic movement shooters out there that people could've gone to play if warframe was too slow for them.

[NeDesitVirtus]

21 hours ago, Graavarg said:

It is not something new, rather it is a trend that has been ongoing for quite some years.

Initially a lot of Warframe was about playing "together". It was a co-op game, clans had meaning, helping your fellow Tenno was both "a thing" and "the right thing". And many got into Warframe through "playing with friends", because friends wanted more to join their clans and missions. This was something you could call the "Space Ninjas lift together"-phase.

Over time Warframe has morphed into a more single player power fantasy drop efficiency-driven game. It is a lot more about achieving "your" power, showing off "your power" and getting what "you" want or need. This reflects in how the game is played, and it might actually even reflect what kind of gamers now like to play Warframe.

As a "gaming enterprise" the transition to "your power fantasy" has been successful, but on a philosophical scale it might be considered back-sliding. This is why you now can have three players standing on extraction and letting the clock tick down, instead of going back a few meters to rez a lower-MR player. It is why some players abort missions immediately if there are "too many" low-MR players onboard. You hardly ever see higher-MRs giving out advice, or even acting as silent mentors in missions by allowing the new guys more playing space (and helping them as needed). An organized push to extort DE by threatening to down-rank Warframe on Steam would have been a "does not compute"-thing back in the day, so far out it would have been incomprehensible. But a few years back that was what happened, due to a changed playerbase (that honestly seemed to believe they were in the right to demand what they felt they personally needed and wanted).

So I would say that your conclusion is spot on, and yes, this is a thing and it has been getting bigger. But it is more of a trend that has been going on for quite awhile.

- - -

Soulframe's "to be or not to be" will, for me personally, come down to if DE can manage to restore that helpful, friendly atmosphere that initially made Warframe stand out among all the other online games. Back then, it really felt as if Tenno did lift together. I do hope DE still have that in them, to stand up to the selfish, shallow horde and not give in to all these egocentric "me first", "I have a right to get what I want", "it is all about me (and my feelings"), regardless of how much money they are willing to pay to feel "special". Which, incidentally, would fit nicely into Soulframe's overall thematic. 

Everything you said here is true, but it depends on the more veteran players to restore this sense of decency and helpfulness and it can be restored and again become the norm. The thing I see is that mid-range, say MR 20 up to 30 players still have a lot to do in as much as, the grind is still there for them to progress and in the moment of needing to do more in the shortest amount of time possible, they can and often do leave Tenno behind. 

Likewise, a false sense of superiority can creep in rather than the idea a community is only as healthy and thriving as its newest members. Forgetting or not realizing creating an unhelpful experience can and does cause others to walk away from an otherwise intriguing and amazing, yet grindy game. 

I've seen MR 28's call new Tenno leeches for being 7 seconds ehind them getting to extraction on a level 15 alert of all things, as if this trival and exceedingly easy content for them might not be as easy for a new Tenno who is still learning the ever changing tilesets. We see the behavior in Zariman of a host migrating while others are trying to kill a void angel. This being the first of the end-game content, is ife with the attitude of "me first". I often run those Zarian missions just to upkeep my stock for the weekly Kuva trade at Yonta, and knowing a accolade will also benefit younger Tenno drop a Orokin eye charge near Melica to get at least thst for them when I run a public lobby. It's these small gestures whether or not others appreciate it that make the difference and it can be done with a bit of thoughtfulness.  

This is not to say that I don't or won'r leave a mission if I see blatant leeches, trolls or exhibits or other behavior that would indicate one should know better but doesn't care. Or if chatted to becomes belligerent or otherwise uncooperative after a friendly ask.  This is also to say that there's nothing wrong with dialing down one's min=maxed build to the extent we don't map wipe but give others breathing room to have fun too, especially if we see that they are not of the same caliber of build. What I'm saying is that there will always be "sweaty try-hards", "trolls", "leeches", "stubborn ideologues that think we must play their way only", and "toxic" players in any game as in real life. 

We don't have to be them and we can can choose to be better.  We don't have to tolerate them either. And by not endorsing or enabling their behavior we serve the purpose of normalzing the Tenno Way. I hope this is helpful and gives pause for thought to someone.   

[Lord_Drod]

It does not really bother me if people don't wait in the elevator.  Sometimes I might not even know there is an elevator, other times I am waiting at the elevator and they don't know.  People are sometimes doing other things and don't expect you to wait, while other times people will get extremely upset about obvious accidents.  In the hiearcon corpus tile, you can actually grieve the elevator by going to the top and interacting with it or something.  A guy in my squad did this a few months back just forcing the elevator to constantly go up and another player could not get in the elevator.  I don't remember exactly how it works, but again, that's partially on DE.  Elevators should totally be removed, especially the Europa tileset I believe.  On that one, there's tiles where you have to go up and down 3 elevators.  It's just pretty annoying.

I miss the old corpus ship room with the two bridges and an elevator at the end, with a long bridge underneath and hallways on either side.  This is a much better room than the hiearcon elevators which are still in the game and very common.  It was fun because you could bypass the elevator and speedrun from the complete other side of the room if you knew the tile.  Unfortunately that was one of many cool rooms from old ship that got deleted.  Another was where you fought the sargeant.

As far as reactant goes.  I think players have more power access maybe than than they did a few years ago, so inexperienced players will often nuke before the fissures come in.  It happened in an interception I hosted in recruit for relics, which is the only time I run relics non SP and I think we didn't crack.  I didn't really want to say anything because it seemed like common sense.  We just did another round and it was fine.  When I first started playing, I didn't know to run to extract, and was terrible at parkour, and using volt, so it was like a panic to get reactant at times.  It felt bad when I didn't crack.  Nobody would get off extract.  There was no SP, so I ran into experienced speedrunners regularly. 

Usually most experienced players in SP will get off extract especially if someone joins the squad late and has 0 reactant.  I think you get better at these things as you progress and they become less of an issue in SP.

I would like to see fissures updated to other tiles.  They have a lot of the same tiles and again, I know a lot of people would want them in zariman, sanctum etc.  Honestly, I would enjoy the underwater archwing tiles being in the game.  What's great about the game is a lot of mission variety and it gets stale if its always the same 2-3 tiles on exterm.  Why is Kuva fortress just limited to requiem relics?  It's a fun tile.  It would be cool if you could click "exterm fissure" and it randomly takes you to one of like all the tiles that's ever been in the game for exterm, including old and new ship, old and new gas.  Running the same mission over and over for an hour can be fun, or it can be repetitive.  There was even an old invasion tile I remember where you would go outside the tile, and back in, like Mass Effect Citadel.  I haven't seen that one in a while.

[sly_squash]

TBH I see this as one of the many negative side effects of crossplay, as console players tend to take a more... umm.. relaxed disposition towards Warframe's gameplay than PC players that tend to focus more on speed and efficiency.  

And that's the lens I tend to view elevators through: optimizing mission completion time.  If the player is reasonably close to the elevator, sure wait.  But often times the player is so hopelessly far back or even afk the the mission would complete faster if we go as 3 up the elevator and start the extraction timer than if we wait.

My understanding is that, on consoles, there's a much more prevalent "just pull me out" mentality where players aren't even really trying to extract.  They just wanna run around breaking pots and farming mats until extraction timer grabs them.  The result is: I'm not waiting for you if waiting for you really is just going to delay mission completion.

I suppose we could get the best of both worlds if we could send the elevator back down when we were done.  That way we can more aggressively use elevators selfishly while the people lagging behind would still have the elevator waiting and ready to go when they got there themselves.

Edited March 9 by sly_squash

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Also mathematically speaking you are wrong

Ahh, you again. I un-hid your comment because I knew it would be funny ^^

Listen, mathematically I'm correct. Why? Because that's how proportion versus quantity works.

If you make a ball pit and fill it with a thousand of each colour ball, red, blue, yellow and so on, there's an even proportion of each ball. The Green balls, however, are spiky and uncomfortable and covered in a bit of weird slime that you don't like. Then you jump into the ball pit. You will only ever be able to touch 1000 green balls no matter how many times you jump in. That's the cap on the quantity. So it seems like a lot, originally. Until the next step.

So, if you were to make a bigger ball pit, and fill it with 10,000 of each colour ball, you would have the exact same proportion of coloured balls, an even split of them, you'd have an exactly equivalent proportion of the green, spiky, slimy balls, too. But then when you jump in? You can, quite logically, touch up to 10x more of the green balls than before. Yes, you can also touch 10x more of the other colours, but what are you going to notice more?

Are we discussing all the nice people that OP has encountered? No. The completely normal people? No. The role-players? No. The completionists? No. The lesez fair non-grind players? No. We're discussing the surprising increase of unpleasant people that OP has encountered.

This is a direct result of there now being more not nice people in the game, numerically, even though the representative proportion hasn't really changed in the game.

This is why Quantity and Proportion are different.

Proportion means the percentage of total has not changed. Quantity means the actual numerical amount has changed, regardless of the proportion staying the same.

While the proportion of your games will still contain just as many nice players, more games overall, statistically, will actively contain an unpleasant player. Especially when there are shades of 'unpleasant' players, ranging from the simple un-mannered, all the way up to the outright toxic.

You're still muted, by the way, I won't see your response. It's just funny when somebody doesn't understand how 'more' equals 'more' when taken from a single-point sample, despite 'percentage of overall' being the same.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

8 hours ago, SirZorba said:

But I quit ~4 years ago and recently came back and it feels like a completely different game in terms of how single-minded people are about just gogogogogogogo through a mission.

That's more of a player mindset thing than anything related to game mechanics. Warframe is built upon excessive amounts of repetition, so it's only natural for players to want to get through the content they have on farm as quickly as possible. Even going back as far as the pre-bullet jump days you had players using coptering as a means to speed up the tediously slow pace of the game. Having any nerfs to mobility at this point would only breed animosity towards the developers. No one enjoys having their toys taken away.

[Karyst]

People should be grateful for getting carried and not complain about every single negative experience they get in this game. You can always play solo and/premade where you might not get blamed for having movement speed of a domestic drone and similar pathing. From my experience, people who are late to the elevator are distracted or are looking for their simaris target or looking for secret room in the void, obviously, if you're nowhere near the elevator , it makes more sense for me to just go to ext and drop the squad as the time is money, faster you crack the more you make, efficiency is the key

Just now, Karyst said:

People should be grateful for getting carried and not complain about every single negative experience they get in this game. You can always play solo and/premade where you might not get blamed for having movement speed of a domestic drone and similar pathing. From my experience, people who are late to the elevator are distracted or are looking for their simaris target or looking for secret room in the void, obviously, if you're nowhere near the elevator , it makes more sense for me to just go to ext and drop the squad as the time is money, faster you crack the more you make, efficiency is the key

And as for blaming someone for being slow, unless I know it's deliberate, I wouldn't blame them 

[NeDesitVirtus]

We just finished a 12-Stage Duviri SP run with a really cool Tenno, and stayed just because one guy needed to get to Tier 10. The other guy dropped off but the three of us just chilled and worked together to get him there. This is what I was talking about earlier. You know what he said? And I quote, "This was the funnest time I've had in Duviri in a long time." Goodwill goes a long way. 

Edited March 10 by NeDesitVirtus

[Lord_Drod]

16 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Ahh, you again. I un-hid your comment because I knew it would be funny ^^

Listen, mathematically I'm correct. Why? Because that's how proportion versus quantity works.

If you make a ball pit and fill it with a thousand of each colour ball, red, blue, yellow and so on, there's an even proportion of each ball. The Green balls, however, are spiky and uncomfortable and covered in a bit of weird slime that you don't like. Then you jump into the ball pit. You will only ever be able to touch 1000 green balls no matter how many times you jump in. That's the cap on the quantity. So it seems like a lot, originally. Until the next step.

So, if you were to make a bigger ball pit, and fill it with 10,000 of each colour ball, you would have the exact same proportion of coloured balls, an even split of them, you'd have an exactly equivalent proportion of the green, spiky, slimy balls, too. But then when you jump in? You can, quite logically, touch up to 10x more of the green balls than before. Yes, you can also touch 10x more of the other colours, but what are you going to notice more?

Are we discussing all the nice people that OP has encountered? No. The completely normal people? No. The role-players? No. The completionists? No. The lesez fair non-grind players? No. We're discussing the surprising increase of unpleasant people that OP has encountered.

This is a direct result of there now being more not nice people in the game, numerically, even though the representative proportion hasn't really changed in the game.

This is why Quantity and Proportion are different.

Proportion means the percentage of total has not changed. Quantity means the actual numerical amount has changed, regardless of the proportion staying the same.

While the proportion of your games will still contain just as many nice players, more games overall, statistically, will actively contain an unpleasant player. Especially when there are shades of 'unpleasant' players, ranging from the simple un-mannered, all the way up to the outright toxic.

You're still muted, by the way, I won't see your response. It's just funny when somebody doesn't understand how 'more' equals 'more' when taken from a single-point sample, despite 'percentage of overall' being the same.

This is definitely false.  If the proportions stay the same, you aren't more likely to run into toxic players.  Using your example of balls, you aren't anymore likely to run into more toxic players than before because the ratio is the same.  I'm surprised you can't even understand your own example.  If you add 100k players to the game, and 25k of them are toxic, long run you run into the exact same amount of toxic players as if there were only 100 players and 25 of them were toxic if you ran 10,000 missions.  You will run into individually "more" unique toxic players if that is what you're trying to say, but it does not really matter if you run into 5 different toxic guys or the same toxic guy 5 times, does it?  You're not running into a higher level of toxicity, just encountering more unique toxic players at the exact same rate instead of encountering the same toxic guys repeatedly as a result of a smaller player pool.

25% is probably a bad example for warframe because it's a 4 player squad.  If I pick balls at random out of a bucket of 100 balls where 25 are pink and run 1m trials I will pick the same number of pink balls in a bucket of 100k balls where 25k are pink (assuming I'm blindfolded).  Increasing the volume of balls at same ratio doesn't increase my chances of drawing more pink balls.

Edited March 10 by Lord_Drod

[CrownOfShadows]

I think this is more a failure of the mission design than a failure of the players as well as a symptom of the MR stratification. Warframe has become fast and furious but the mission design has stayed slow and tedious.

When it comes to relic missions specifically though it's even more frustrating due to the void trace system and the fact that there's a much higher proportion of low level players mixed in with high level players - this mostly because there's no real incentive to do SP fissures so if there's a mission type they like more in regular modes they'll just go play that rather than a SP fissure with a mission type they like less, which ends up being miserable for both sides because new players can't keep up and old players are bored. A similar but less common reverse problem happens in SP fissures where underleveled players with SP access are in there hoping to be carried and just don't have the experience/power/frame type/parkour to keep up.

I tend to wait 10-15 seconds in an elevator while watching the map and if player icons aren't heading that way I press the button. If they are (and they're not 100m+ away) I wait for them, and for the most part my team does to.. but everyone's got their own patience level at any given time and sometimes it runs out.

Another thing worth mentioning is the speed nuking in fissures. If you're in an Exterminate, Rescue or Sabotage and you're not running a speed frame you will get left behind by the people that are (in fact, it's almost like if you're not running a speed frame you're WRONG, which sucks). Unfortunately, newer players don't always have access to speed frames - and sometimes people just also want to play something off-meta. This speed nuking creates a lot of elevator problems just by itself, because frames just can't keep up even if they wanted to.

The entire point of elevators and double button doors is to keep the team together and prevent situations where a Titania is waiting at the exit before some poor new player even gets past the first 15% of the mission (or worse, create a serious problem with people just sitting in the spawn because they know they can't keep up), so this is a bit of deeper problem than it might look like at first glance.

[L3512]

17 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Listen, mathematically I'm correct. Why? Because that's how proportion versus quantity works.

Your math is wrong. The quantity of WF players was already high enough that it is functionally irrelevant, 100 or 10,000 balls makes no different if you can only sample 10 per day. Proportion is the issue here, OP seems to think there are proportionally more toxic players.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

This is definitely false.  If the proportions stay the same, you aren't more likely to run into toxic players.

7 hours ago, L3512 said:

Your math is wrong.

I don't see what you don't get about this.

From a single point sample, it doesn't matter what the proportion of players are, you are able to get more of of one type when you increase the numerical quantity, even if it's in proportion.

From an overall sample, which is where proportion matters, you get the same amount proportionally. Yes. But that's like saying in true RNG, you are statistically likely to get a specific result after only 15 attempts, and 'nearly guaranteed' after 30, that's true for the overall results. For the individual results you have direct and recorded examples of the specific result not occuring for 60-100 attempts, or after only 1. That's because the average, or proportion, is a combined result that smooths out the outliers.

From a sample of one, having 10x the players you don't like in the game means you are able to encounter more. Regardless of the overall average set by the total experiences, if your sample size is 1, you can have that bias because you now have 10x the quantity. It works the other way too, if you didn't like role-player type tenno, ones that are hardcore into the lore and behave accordingly, you are going to notice way more of them in the game if you multiply the player base, even if it's in proportion. Because that's your sample. One point.

This is the key point to understanding sample sizes in mathematics and how they bias statistics.

[Lord_Drod]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I don't see what you don't get about this.

From a single point sample, it doesn't matter what the proportion of players are, you are able to get more of of one type when you increase the numerical quantity, even if it's in proportion.

From an overall sample, which is where proportion matters, you get the same amount proportionally. Yes. But that's like saying in true RNG, you are statistically likely to get a specific result after only 15 attempts, and 'nearly guaranteed' after 30, that's true for the overall results. For the individual results you have direct and recorded examples of the specific result not occuring for 60-100 attempts, or after only 1. That's because the average, or proportion, is a combined result that smooths out the outliers.

From a sample of one, having 10x the players you don't like in the game means you are able to encounter more. Regardless of the overall average set by the total experiences, if your sample size is 1, you can have that bias because you now have 10x the quantity. It works the other way too, if you didn't like role-player type tenno, ones that are hardcore into the lore and behave accordingly, you are going to notice way more of them in the game if you multiply the player base, even if it's in proportion. Because that's your sample. One point.

This is the key point to understanding sample sizes in mathematics and how they bias statistics.

A single point sample is irrelevant.  Are you playing just one fissure and then quiting the game?  If so, your experience means nothing and you can't draw anything from that.  The part you wrote that I bolded is not talking about a single point sample.

Even in a single point sample(which you weren't talking about and nobody would) if a toxic player is a 5% chance and you're only drawing one ball from a bag of 100 or 1m you do not have a greater chance of drawing the toxic guy in one shot from the 1m bag. That's what 5% means.  It's the same.

Edited March 10 by Lord_Drod

[SDGDen]

On 2024-03-08 at 8:50 AM, Graavarg said:

It is not something new, rather it is a trend that has been ongoing for quite some years.

Initially a lot of Warframe was about playing "together". It was a co-op game, clans had meaning, helping your fellow Tenno was both "a thing" and "the right thing". And many got into Warframe through "playing with friends", because friends wanted more to join their clans and missions. This was something you could call the "Space Ninjas lift together"-phase.

Over time Warframe has morphed into a more single player power fantasy drop efficiency-driven game. It is a lot more about achieving "your" power, showing off "your power" and getting what "you" want or need. This reflects in how the game is played, and it might actually even reflect what kind of gamers now like to play Warframe.

As a "gaming enterprise" the transition to "your power fantasy" has been successful, but on a philosophical scale it might be considered back-sliding. This is why you now can have three players standing on extraction and letting the clock tick down, instead of going back a few meters to rez a lower-MR player. It is why some players abort missions immediately if there are "too many" low-MR players onboard. You hardly ever see higher-MRs giving out advice, or even acting as silent mentors in missions by allowing the new guys more playing space (and helping them as needed). An organized push to extort DE by threatening to down-rank Warframe on Steam would have been a "does not compute"-thing back in the day, so far out it would have been incomprehensible. But a few years back that was what happened, due to a changed playerbase (that honestly seemed to believe they were in the right to demand what they felt they personally needed and wanted).

So I would say that your conclusion is spot on, and yes, this is a thing and it has been getting bigger. But it is more of a trend that has been going on for quite awhile.

- - -

Soulframe's "to be or not to be" will, for me personally, come down to if DE can manage to restore that helpful, friendly atmosphere that initially made Warframe stand out among all the other online games. Back then, it really felt as if Tenno did lift together. I do hope DE still have that in them, to stand up to the selfish, shallow horde and not give in to all these egocentric "me first", "I have a right to get what I want", "it is all about me (and my feelings"), regardless of how much money they are willing to pay to feel "special". Which, incidentally, would fit nicely into Soulframe's overall thematic. 

god. nail on the head with this one.

honestly, part of the issue (in my personal opinion) is the *scale* of the powerfantasy.

there's no more "to do a mission most effectively you should build a team of 4 with specific roles", every. single. mission. has a couple of builds that you can run that are SO EFFECTIVE there is literally zero worth in running with a team.

we've gotten so powerful that there's simply no point in building for a specific purpose when you can just build your frame to do everything and ignore the entire concept of team play.

 

maaan, i miss the old days sometimes. in all honesty... that's why for a while, i stopped playing warframe and started playing destiny 2 instead, it's still power fantasy but because it's balanced-ish there's a massive reason to play in groups and even to teach newbies (which is what i mostly did). sadly i can't play d2 anymore due to it being involved in a piece of personal trauma, so i went back to warframe with some of my old crew. 

yet that "group play" social factor is still entirely absent.

wasted potential honestly.

 

[L3512]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

From a single point sample, it doesn't matter what the proportion of players are, you are able to get more of of one type when you increase the numerical quantity, even if it's in proportion.

Yes and your 10% green ball example would only make sense if there where ten WF players, aka 1 toxic dude. If we increase the players to 20 then we might get grouped with 2 toxic players.

As the player base numbered in the tens of thousands to hundred of thousands even before cross play and squads are four people, the chance to get squadded with multiple toxic people has already surpassed the 3 person (hopefully you are non toxic example here) limit and so the only thing we now care about is the overall percent of toxic players and the chance of getting matched up with them.

You are basically saying that if I run 100 radiant relics that the chance of getting a rare part is not in fact 10% because I'll most likely get the part because I ran more. While I will hopefully get the part the chance per relic is still a static 10%.

[LascarCapable]

On 2024-03-08 at 8:05 AM, Sir_Basti said:

Sorry for this header but I really don´t get it.

So straight to my topic: When running Relic-Exterminate or Capture, especially on "higher" LVL missions like Neo and Axi, Tenno seem less and less able to, for example, wait at elevators for the squad. Some like to breath and moan into their microphones. IDK this seems to be more of a thing since the console players joined in.

I play a Thermal Sunder Titania myself but it must be really hard to wait for some Tenno for the enemies to convert, it happens more and more that Tenno don´t give a frick about that, ending in not enough reactants at the end of Lith or Meso missions.

Now my question: Is it just me (maybe I slept not enough or so), or is this a thing that really gets bigger?

Been a thing since forever. Some people just utterly lack patience. This combined with some aggressive behavior can lead to some rather annoying interactions.

I'd recommend making pre-mades with friends next time you want to crack some relics in these game modes. I myself am not a fan of having a lightning fast pace imposed by peer pressure so I usually just grab some friends who wants a more relaxed pace while playing like I do.

Edited March 10 by LascarCapable

[quxier]

On 2024-03-09 at 3:13 AM, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

On 2024-03-09 at 12:36 AM, SirZorba said:

And frankly, Warframe moving a bit back towards that slower pace would be a good thing. It's gotten way too fast, way too out of control at this point.

No. I'm gonna have to disagree with that. The high speed and kinetic playstyle is one the biggest appeals of the game. It's part of why people enjoy playing frames like Wukong, Gauss and Titania while simultaneously hating the Kahl missions. Let's not forget the reactions when Void Dash was nerfed to become Void Sling. If people want a slower game, they can go play something else that is more their speed.

Comparing Kahl to some speedster frame is little bit extreme. I don't like slow walk of Kahl (Duviri is fine with combat + horses/teleport). Do I like speedsters? Not too much. I'm in the middle ground.

On 2024-03-09 at 2:10 PM, Karyst said:

looking for secret room in the void, obviously, if you're nowhere near the elevator , it makes more sense for me to just go to ext and drop the squad as the time is money, faster you crack the more you make, efficiency is the key

Are you saying that you will abort mission? If that's the case it's not always efficient. Imagine you do e.g. 3 "abort missions" instead of one where you have to wait, e.g. 30 second. "Wait mission" would be more efficient. It's still random.

14 hours ago, NeDesitVirtus said:

We just finished a 12-Stage Duviri SP run with a really cool Tenno, and stayed just because one guy needed to get to Tier 10. The other guy dropped off but the three of us just chilled and worked together to get him there. This is what I was talking about earlier. You know what he said? And I quote, "This was the funnest time I've had in Duviri in a long time." Goodwill goes a long way. 

If you had fun that's all it matters. I wouldn't personally go to 12th stage (from 10th). It's like 1-1.5 hour probably. I don't like Circuit (especially with bad weapon/frame combo). 2 arcanes is not enough. And seeing how I can get few credits makes me big no.

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

12 hours ago, L3512 said:

Your math is wrong.

I don't see what you don't get about this.

From a single point sample, it doesn't matter what the proportion of players are, you are able to get more of of one type when you increase the numerical quantity, even if it's in proportion.

On 2024-03-09 at 10:04 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

If you make a ball pit and fill it with a thousand of each colour ball, red, blue, yellow and so on, there's an even proportion of each ball. The Green balls, however, are spiky and uncomfortable and covered in a bit of weird slime that you don't like. Then you jump into the ball pit. You will only ever be able to touch 1000 green balls no matter how many times you jump in. That's the cap on the quantity. So it seems like a lot, originally. Until the next step.

So, if you were to make a bigger ball pit, and fill it with 10,000 of each colour ball, you would have the exact same proportion of coloured balls, an even split of them, you'd have an exactly equivalent proportion of the green, spiky, slimy balls, too. But then when you jump in? You can, quite logically, touch up to 10x more of the green balls than before. Yes, you can also touch 10x more of the other colours,

Quantity in your examples doesn't matter. Of course at the point where you can play game with full squad. You have equal chance to get "bad guys" with 2x sample or 1000x sample. Why? You example 1 000 Slimy balls says that you can touch up to number of X balls (1 000 in case of slimy balls). That's not exactly true. You can touch 1 000 unique Slimy balls (let's say they are number 1 - 1 000). Do you throw balls after touching? No. In warframe people play e.g. few missions. So you can touch the same ball N times. For example there is sample of 20 good - 80 bad players. 1 player can get 40 'bad teammate', while other player can get 40 'good teammate'.

Quote

but what are you going to notice more?

That's "bias" or another similar term. We tend to notice bad strikes more. I love comment about WoW:

Quote

Bad RNG" and its unpopularity with some players was acknowledged by Jeffrey Kaplan at the 2009 Game Developer's Conference, where he talked about "progressive percentages" in quest item drop rates.

We found that this had a lot of problems where players would run into streaks, and they only remembered the S#&$ty streaks. So what we decided to do was we took a page out of Warcraft 3, which had a very elegant design which they referred to as 'progressive percentages.' ...In Lich King, every creature that is part of the collection quest has the item 100% of the time, but we do a progressive system where we up the chance the player [gets the item] each time he kills it. The problem was, when we put it live in the beta--and we didn't tell anybody this--we found that while it was great that it got rid of the bad streaks, it also got rid of all the good streaks. And overall we needed to raise the base drop percentage to around 45%.^[1]

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/RNG

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

A single point sample is irrelevant.

The single point sample is the single player, not a single game or a single experience.

6 hours ago, quxier said:

Quantity in your examples doesn't matter.

It does. Because you're not taking the aggregate experience of all players, or the experience of one player playing once with every single person in the game. You're taking the experience of one player that cannot possibly play with every single player in the game.

You're also correct, Quxier, because the average player isn't blocking every toxic player they play with, so you can get repeats.

One player may never see any of the toxic players whatsoever.

One player may see all 10k toxic players.

One player may see the same 50 toxic players in their games over and over until they start blocking them and getting new ones.

That's the entire function of the deviation for a single-point sample of one player's perspective.

Proportion is just an average. You can only expect it to apply when taken either as a full sample of the entire player base's experience, or as a full sample of one player's near infinite number of games where they play with every single player in the game at least once. A single-point sample literally can and almost always does defy the averages, defy proportion, almost by requirement to create an average overall. It's statistically unlikely in any sample size larger than single digits for any one individual to match the actual average exactly.

Do you see the logical fallacy that people like Lord_Drod are trying to create?

By saying that the direct numerical increase cannot change a person's experience of the game when what you're basing this on is 'the proportions are still even, therefore the experience must still be even', that is just plain denial of how proportions and averages are achieved mathematically.

So the question is, are they going to dig their heels in and try to insist that a player's experience must match the proportional average experience? Or are they going to admit reality?

[(XBOX)Timidobserver]

Farmed Lephantis for Orokin cells recently, and OMG every single time over like 40+ killls someone ran on the elevator and left the group. It honestly made me wonder how humanity isn't extinct. 

Edited March 10 by (XBOX)Timidobserver

[Lord_Drod]

50 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Proportion is just an average. You can only expect it to apply when taken either as a full sample of the entire player base's experience, or as a full sample of one player's near infinite number of games where they play with every single player in the game at least once. A single-point sample literally can and almost always does defy the averages, defy proportion, almost by requirement to create an average overall. It's statistically unlikely in any sample size larger than single digits for any one individual to match the actual average exactly.

Do you see the logical fallacy that people like Lord_Drod are trying to create?

So the question is, are they going to dig their heels in and try to insist that a player's experience must match the proportional average experience? Or are they going to admit reality?

You don't understand RNG or statistics.  I'm not creating a logical fallacy.  The more a player plays, the more their experiences will become standardized towards the proportion.  You will not run thousands of missions and just magically always hit the toxic players or never hit them.  People play thousands of missions in the game, so overtime, they will even out to the proportions.  That's just how statistics work.  In the short run, there's high variance.  It's like saying you will never get a rare from a relic drop.  Well after a certain amount of missions there is basically a 99.99% chance you will get one, whatever that number is, I'm not interested in.  The logic still applies to toxic players.  You only remembering the toxic guys and having a biased about that has nothing to do with the actual statistics over time in large samples, which everyone gets to if they play the game enough.  10k samples is enough to see pretty decent numbers.

[quxier]

44 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Proportion is just an average. You can only expect it to apply when taken either as a full sample of the entire player base's experience, or as a full sample of one player's near infinite number of games where they play with every single player in the game at least once. A single-point sample literally can and almost always does defy the averages, defy proportion, almost by requirement to create an average overall. It's statistically unlikely in any sample size larger than single digits for any one individual to match the actual average exactly.

That are extremes. With small samples, average will be accurate. With samples that approaches the limits, average will be close to proportion.

You don't need "infinite" runs. You just need many runs.

48 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

By saying that the direct numerical increase cannot change a person's experience of the game when what you're basing this on is 'the proportions are still even, therefore the experience must still be even', that is just plain denial of how proportions and averages are achieved mathematically.

So the question is, are they going to dig their heels in and try to insist that a player's experience must match the proportional average experience? Or are they going to admit reality?

With big enough sample (number of players & number of games played), player ratio of "bad" and "good" won't change. It just "stabilize".

For example you have 2 bad and 8 good players. With few runs you can get 60% bad players. With 20 runs your bad player count can be only 18%. Nothing wrong with those numbers. The more runs you do the closer 'bad player' count will be to 20%.  It won't be exact 20% but "close enough".

You said that single player may have different experience because the group is bigger (but same proportion). That can be rejected as source of "different experience" with simple: group is the same but player gets multiple occasions to meet bad people. So your number of "potential bad guy experiences" grows but the number of players still stays the same. So how does player get different experience?

 

There are few problems with above "math" that affects single players. Those problem are not based on quantity (above certain point).

Probability, as I mentioned, cares about ratio number (e.g. you get 10 good guys and 20 bad guys, your good-guy ration is 10/20) or percentages (10 gg / 30 all guys = 1/3 = ~33%). it doesn't care about time (when something happens), order, number of runs and number of 'people' that have certain things happens to them. So you having this situation:
 

Quote

 

20% bad & 80% bad ratio

GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG BBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBB

 

have some probability to happen as this:

Quote

GGGGGGGGGG BBBBBBBBBB GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG BBBBBGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGG BBBBBGGGGG

With single player in mind and limited runs, player may not do enough runs to go to Bad guy in first situations.

Probability has Bell curve. It shows that big part of situations are in the middle. However there are some less likely situations that still happens (called outliers). Depending how exactly that curve is shaped, you can have more or less outliers. However with huge enough number of players, the number of outliers will still be big.

 

ps. I wish I've explained it clearly but It was long time ago when I was messing with probability/rng. And I'm not math person.

[Paroe]

On 2024-03-08 at 10:37 PM, sly_squash said:

TBH I see this as one of the many negative side effects of crossplay, as console players tend to take a more... umm.. relaxed disposition towards Warframe's gameplay than PC players that tend to focus more on speed and efficiency.  

And that's the lens I tend to view elevators through: optimizing mission completion time.  If the player is reasonably close to the elevator, sure wait.  But often times the player is so hopelessly far back or even afk the the mission would complete faster if we go as 3 up the elevator and start the extraction timer than if we wait.

My understanding is that, on consoles, there's a much more prevalent "just pull me out" mentality where players aren't even really trying to extract.  They just wanna run around breaking pots and farming mats until extraction timer grabs them.  The result is: I'm not waiting for you if waiting for you really is just going to delay mission completion.

I suppose we could get the best of both worlds if we could send the elevator back down when we were done.  That way we can more aggressively use elevators selfishly while the people lagging behind would still have the elevator waiting and ready to go when they got there themselves.

As someone who, prior to account merging, played exclusively on PS4... What youre saying is a **lot** of PC elitist bullcrap and brush painting. Playing on PC now i see dramatically more people being negative or rude - because PC players use the chat. 
Often on console the worst youl find is players chronically in narnia for survival missions, force missions, or ones who hit terrain a lot.
On PC though?
I got harassed for using a non-meta amp (flamethrower) in an eidelon mission by a volt prime and his rhino prime duo both with rubico primes and offensively named kitguns. I get PC players who will argue when i tell them to stop dying in narnia. Ive failed void fissures because the zoomers refuse to slow down. EVERY sortie ive done in the last month ive left at least once on principle because some PC player will force the mission instead of waiting or leaving. Heck, i did a ropalyst with a low MR friend of mine who was gifted a nekros prime and ripkas and they were badmouthed by a wisp prime with a kuva brama for being low MR and not knowing how to cheese the fight... After they used all their lives because their min-maxed build clearly relied on shield gating and they never fixed it after that was nerfed. On the lighter side, i can count on one hand the number of times a rando has revived me since i started playing on PC.  

PC is way more toxic than console.