Loki & Mirage need more than what they are getting

[(PSN)NinjaBlade626]

The QOL improvements for them are good but they need more.
I saw Pablo respond to someone saying that Loki don`t need a rework and to that I AGREE WITH, he don`t need to be a killer however, Loki needs something more to his abilities like a better passive for example.

As for Mirage her 2nd ability use to work when she was first released but now the 2nd ability is mediocre and needs the augment for it to be usable, it has so much potential but nothing has been done to improve it.
So on this post I'm going to present some improvements that will make them both better.

 

Loki

Spoiler

New Passive: Your attacks will have 100% chance to proc radiation, the proc will last double the duration.

• The passive will deactivate when using his 2nd ability.

1st ability:

• Enemy`s damage will pass right through it making decoy take no damage. (which makes sense, it`s practical and better overall)
• Decoy can attack enemies by shooting, enemies will receive an impact proc.
• While shooting at the same enemy, there is a 50% chance for the enemy to be knocked down, when this happens, enemies will prioritise the decoy as a dangerous threat increasing threat levels for ten seconds. (Threat levels higher than interception and defence targets)
• When an enemy is knocked down, decoy will target another enemy.
• It will use whatever secondary weapon Loki currently has equipped.

 

2nd ability:

• Remove muffled sound while invisible.

 

3rd ability:

• After switching with the enemy, loki will be invulnerable for 1 second.
• Loki will always be facing the enemy he`s switches with.
• If he teleports into a group of enemies, they will receive a knock down within a 10m radius.
• You can switch places with crates, barrels and dead bodies.
• If you have a melee weapon equipped while doing so, enemies will take slide attack damage from melee weapon.

(Synergy) If you decide to switch places with the decoy, you and the decoy will knock down enemies within a 15m radius.

 

4th ability:

• Holding the ability will make enemies weapons explode dealing 1000 damage and knocking them down. This can be increased by strength mods.
• The damage will scale based in how many enemies are with the radius of the ability.
• This will deactivate eximus abilities for 20 seconds. This is not affected by duration mods.

Mirage
 

Spoiler

1st ability:

• This adds splash damage radius of 7m for all weapons.
• Holding the ability gives you the option to focus all clones` shots in the centre of the radical giving multishot.

 

2nd ability:

• Increase duration to 30 seconds.
• The damage is also based on enemy level.
• Glowing booby traps have a 100% chance to charm enemies when active which will set off the traps by them interacting with them. (this will make it useful for all tile sets) 
• It works on grineer sensor bars which procs radiation when enemies walk through it. Allies that walk through it will receive status immunity for 10 seconds.
• It has a chance of unlocking lockers with moas in them.
• It can auto hack a downed bursa.
• It affects infested spore pods from infested boilers causing them to explode dealing viral damage in close proximity.
• It affects boils which produces gas clouds.
• Mirage, companions and allies are not affected by any traps affected by this ability.
• It works on open crates and lockers to where it has a 50% chance to suck enemies into the void permanently, this is considered as an enemy killed. 
• Dead bodies are now booby trap.
• Allies or NPC that is in a downed state turn into traps. Enemies will receive an electric stun within a 15m radius.
• Enemies attacking your companion/sentinel, they will receive an electric stun.

Synergy) While using 3rd ability, light it will increase traps damage x2, dark it will make enemies 20% vulnerable to damage.
FIX: Enemies are able to set off alarms and are not affected by explosion when 2nd ability is active.

 

If Loki and Mirage had these improvements, they would be a lot better and fun to use.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention that if you hold the 4th ability the weapons will explode in their faces and it will make them vulnerable to damage.

Edited March 29 by (PSN)NinjaBlade626

[johnno23]

in any regular star chart Mirage already nukes everything.....just making her 2nd stronger today is a nerf later in the week. Mirage is fine as is and if you cannot nuke a simple Hydron Defense tile set with her then the build is wrong and not the frame itself. not being elitist just stating a simple reality. In elite sanctuary onslaught many Mirage player can hit round 8 9 even 10 solo without too many issues. And these players are often around mastery level 16 - 20+ but they build her well and use her abilities well.

[Digital-Dreams]

I think the Loki ideas are on the right track, let me mess around with this a bit

7 hours ago, (PSN)NinjaBlade626 said:

New Passive: Your attacks will have 100% chance to proc radiation, the proc will last double the duration.

• The passive will deactivate when using his 2nd ability.

Instead of radiation procs, it should be Confusion since he doesn't need to inflict a status 100% of the time.

7 hours ago, (PSN)NinjaBlade626 said:

1st ability:

• Enemy`s damage will pass right through it making decoy take no damage. (which makes sense, it`s practical and better overall)
• Decoy can attack enemies by shooting, enemies will receive an impact proc.
• While shooting at the same enemy, there is a 50% chance for the enemy to be knocked down, when this happens, enemies will prioritise the decoy as a dangerous threat increasing threat levels for ten seconds. (Threat levels higher than interception and defence targets)
• When an enemy is knocked down, decoy will target another enemy.
• It will use whatever secondary weapon Loki currently has equipped.

The decoy acting like a hologram and not dying from shots makes sense and would be a great change instead of making it scale with enemies like it is going to.

7 hours ago, (PSN)NinjaBlade626 said:

2nd ability:

• Remove muffled sound while invisible.

Personal preference, I don't mind but it is an understandable request. Otherwise, it is fine in the current state.

7 hours ago, (PSN)NinjaBlade626 said:

3rd ability:

• After switching with the enemy, loki will be invulnerable for 1 second.
• Loki will always be facing the enemy he`s switches with.
• If he teleports into a group of enemies, they will receive a knock down within a 10m radius.
• You can switch places with crates, barrels and dead bodies.
• If you have a melee weapon equipped while doing so, enemies will take slide attack damage from melee weapon.

(Synergy) If you decide to switch places with the decoy, you and the decoy will knock down enemies within a 15m radius.

I like the synergy idea, but also let's not forget that Loki will be getting a move speed burst when he teleports and not be rooted in place. The ability to switch with items is not needed, if you need to teleport long distances you can use an enemy or the decoy.

8 hours ago, (PSN)NinjaBlade626 said:

4th ability:

• Holding the ability will make enemies weapons explode dealing 1000 damage and knocking them down. This can be increased by strength mods.
• The damage will scale based in how many enemies are with the radius of the ability.
• This will deactivate eximus abilities for 20 seconds. This is not affected by duration mods.

I don't feel like he needs to deal damage, removing guns is already a benefit enough but that is just me.

 

So here are my ideas:

Passive: Loki's attacks will have a 25%^* chance of inflicting confusion, and his abilities will have 100%^* chance of inflicting confusion.

• Having his attacks inflict confusion works for his idea of being a trickster, without being tied to a status effect. I don't believe he should be known for having 100% radiation damage.

Decoy: 

• Enemies attacks pass through the decoy, dealing no damage and making it a pure duration ability
• Decoy can shoot enemies and (due to the passive) inflict confusion
  • Confusion inflicted by the decoy lasts the shortest out of the other abilities, let's say for 5^* seconds, but it can be stacked. The reason is that the decoy seems to choose one enemy and shoot them, so allowing it to stack confusion on one unit up to 5^* times could be useful.
• When the decoy expires, it lets out a 10m burst of confusion

Invisibility: Fine as is. Though maybe his increased wall latch time can be tied to this ability?

• Wall Latch timer does not decrease while invisible

Switch Teleport:

• After switching with an enemy, Loki will be invisible for 2 seconds. This helps him get away more easily.
• When teleporting with an enemy, (due to the passive) he inflicts confusion in a 10m radius.
  • Switch Teleport confusion would be inflicted for 20^* seconds
• (Synergy) Switching places with the decoy, stagger and confuse the enemy in a 15m radius.

Radial Disarm:

• (due to the passive) Inflicts confusion on all enemies.
  • Similar to the argument, it will be for 10 seconds.
  • Irradiating Disarm augment will now inflict radiation with 10 stacks.

[quxier]

11 hours ago, (PSN)NinjaBlade626 said:

New Passive: Your attacks will have 100% chance to proc radiation, the proc will last double the duration.

• The passive will deactivate when using his 2nd ability.

So boring +x damage/status. It was qorvex old passive.

11 hours ago, (PSN)NinjaBlade626 said:

It will use whatever secondary weapon Loki currently has equipped.

That would be too overpowered. It would be like any clone-frames (e.g. wukong). Use your ammo and stop attacking when you stop attacking. Not so great for decoy.

3 hours ago, Digital-Dreams said:

Passive: Loki's attacks will have a 25%^* chance of inflicting confusion, and his abilities will have 100%^* chance of inflicting confusion.

• Having his attacks inflict confusion works for his idea of being a trickster, without being tied to a status effect. I don't believe he should be known for having 100% radiation damage.

What is "confusion"?

 

[Digital-Dreams]

Confusion

Basically it is what radiation can inflict, it is what makes enemies target and shoot each other. If you use his Irradiating Disarm currently, it does not apply radiation damage but just the confusion status. It is different from radiations since multiple rad stacks increases the damage on the affected target, confusion does not.

 

My thought process for making his passive around confusion was that it not only fits with him being named after a trickster god, but also makes enemies easier to deal with due to them not attacking players.

[quxier]

17 hours ago, Digital-Dreams said:

Confusion

Basically it is what radiation can inflict, it is what makes enemies target and shoot each other. If you use his Irradiating Disarm currently, it does not apply radiation damage but just the confusion status. It is different from radiations since multiple rad stacks increases the damage on the affected target, confusion does not.

 

My thought process for making his passive around confusion was that it not only fits with him being named after a trickster god, but also makes enemies easier to deal with due to them not attacking players.

So, just the same but worse.

[Digital-Dreams]

4 minutes ago, quxier said:

So, just the same but worse.

It was just an idea of expanding what his Radial Disarm augment does, but applying it to his whole kit.

[Dreamnomad]

I like this topic especially for Loki. He does need a rework of a sort since none of his abilities actually are "trickster" at all and will just get you kill if you aren't invisible already.

Loki I'd say is meant for more Spy/ infiltration and capture tilesets. So his abilities should lean into misdirection and some CC that helps. Also Im trying to address late game as well as his known squishness. Below I took some of everyone's ideas and added my own.

 

New Passive: Wall latch now also gives accelerated passive energy regen and extends invisibility duration while on wall.

1st ability:

• Decoy takes no damage but has variant toggle (similar to Ivara). All Decoys can be remote detonated for effect. Decoys can be placed on walls. Set custom Decoy emotes.
• Stealth Decoy: Not seen by enemies does not trigger alarms and can disable lasers if placed on top of. Detonate to create noise to attract nearby enemies. This Decoy is for mobility while in stealth.
• Reflect Decoy: Reflects a portion of damage received back to enemies, with punch through. Detonate creates radial blind.
•  Absorb Decoy: Decoy absorbs damage from enemy fire. Can use switch teleport on decoy to use absorbed energy as a damage buff. Detonate for explosion based on damage received.

(Synergy: Place a stealth decoy on map, if you are killed instead switch places with decoy (as long as within active duration).

2nd ability:

• Remove muffled sound and weapon noise.
• Increased stealth finisher damage.

 

3rd ability:

• After switching with the enemy, Loki will be invulnerable for 1 second.
• Loki has increase movement and casting speed for 3 sec after teleport on enemy.
• If in air, ST will add fall damage to enemies.

(Synergy) Using ST on Decoy gives buffs based on variant. ST to decoy also auto-detonates it. Stealth: Extends invisibility, Reflect: Gives you enemy appearance removing aggro, Absorb: Gives damage buff based on damage received by decoy.

 

4th ability:

• This will also deactivate eximus abilities for 20 seconds. This is not affected by duration mods.

[(PSN)NinjaBlade626]

On 2024-03-18 at 3:01 PM, johnno23 said:

in any regular star chart Mirage already nukes everything.....just making her 2nd stronger today is a nerf later in the week. Mirage is fine as is and if you cannot nuke a simple Hydron Defense tile set with her then the build is wrong and not the frame itself. not being elitist just stating a simple reality. In elite sanctuary onslaught many Mirage player can hit round 8 9 even 10 solo without too many issues. And these players are often around mastery level 16 - 20+ but they build her well and use her abilities well.

That`s your problem, all your thinking about is damage, damage, damage. Back in the day it use to work, enemies would walk up to a locker and they would get a nasty surprise now it barely works and enemies hack the alarm instead of it either not working or exploding plus you have to use the augment for it just to make it better, so no she`s not "fine" as she is.

 

On 2024-03-19 at 1:53 AM, quxier said:

That would be too overpowered. It would be like any clone-frames (e.g. wukong). Use your ammo and stop attacking when you stop attacking. Not so great for decoy.

 I`d rather you asked why, how is it overpowerd? see I asked a question. Plus the passive is all about distracting anc confusing which fits with his theme as a trickster, you need to think outside the box

 

On 2024-03-20 at 7:25 PM, Dreamnomad said:

He does need a rework

A rework to me is when you either combine two abilities or remove an ability and replace it with a new one, to me that is not what he needs plus your suggestion is more of a revisit than a rework, you just improved on what`s already there, just like what I did, Loki has potential for his abilities to be great which is why I don`t think he needs a rework just a revisit..

People need to know the difference between a rework and a revisit.

 

Edited March 29 by (PSN)NinjaBlade626

[quxier]

33 minutes ago, (PSN)NinjaBlade626 said:

On 2024-03-19 at 2:53 AM, quxier said:

That would be too overpowered. It would be like any clone-frames (e.g. wukong). Use your ammo and stop attacking when you stop attacking. Not so great for decoy.

 I`d rather you asked why, how is it overpowerd? see I asked a question. Plus the passive is all about distracting anc confusing which fits with his theme as a trickster, you need to think outside the box

You put Decoy. Decoy is immortal. It uses your secondary. Your secondary has corrosive + heat (or other combinations). It melts lots of enemies without you even moving (because you can just hide).

Unless I'm missing something it's like old Wukong. You could just stand and he used your weapon. They nerfed him so you have to attack from time to time AND it uses your ammo. Loki would need similar treatment.

 

[johnno23]

1 hour ago, (PSN)NinjaBlade626 said:

That`s your problem, all your thinking about is damage, damage, damage.

the problem is your assumptions about what i do. Mirage has many forms of play and I was simply stating that she is fine as is. my only real problem is actually taking the time to reply to your assumptions.

[(PSN)SonicShift7]

He has a point mirage's slight of hand use to work, he's just bringing it back and making it good without using an augment. 

[Digital-Dreams]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

You put Decoy. Decoy is immortal. It uses your secondary. Your secondary has corrosive + heat (or other combinations). It melts lots of enemies without you even moving (because you can just hide).

Unless I'm missing something it's like old Wukong. You could just stand and he used your weapon. They nerfed him so you have to attack from time to time AND it uses your ammo. Loki would need similar treatment.

 

That is why I would prefer to make the change for the Decoy to be immortal, without changing any other aspects. I just don't see a reason for it to have health in the current state of Warframe.

[johnno23]

8 hours ago, (PSN)SonicShift7 said:

He has a point mirage's slight of hand use to work, he's just bringing it back and making it good without using an augment. 

but if i use the augment it is not for the 1000 extra damage but for the 100% status effect. Already using a decent duration her 3rd and any decent weapon she can hold her own in any mission on the regular star chart without the augment. Also ESO is still a breeze without needing the augment and considering that I used to need to run an arbitration survival for at least 60 minutes to even get close to an enemy level of 200 several years ago then I really don't see the issue. A hydron defense until you reach wave 20 is basically fodder enemies with a tiny chance of an enemy that might catch you off guard if not paying attention with or without the augment.

I might be wrong but as far as I can tell due to my own play style is that she needs to be active and moving. trying to camp in a room and only shoot what comes at you then yes the augment is required but I seldom camp in a mission as it gets so dammed boring and I hate seeing nothing whilst the shedu players simply stand locked in place and blast away for the entire duration of the mission obliterating any form of overview 

[(PSN)SonicShift7]

On 2024-03-30 at 6:22 AM, johnno23 said:

but if i use the augment it is not for the 1000 extra damage but for the 100% status effect. Already using a decent duration her 3rd and any decent weapon she can hold her own in any mission on the regular star chart without the augment. Also ESO is still a breeze without needing the augment and considering that I used to need to run an arbitration survival for at least 60 minutes to even get close to an enemy level of 200 several years ago then I really don't see the issue. A hydron defense until you reach wave 20 is basically fodder enemies with a tiny chance of an enemy that might catch you off guard if not paying attention with or without the augment.

I might be wrong but as far as I can tell due to my own play style is that she needs to be active and moving. trying to camp in a room and only shoot what comes at you then yes the augment is required but I seldom camp in a mission as it gets so dammed boring and I hate seeing nothing whilst the shedu players simply stand locked in place and blast away for the entire duration of the mission obliterating any form of overview 

The way I see it All Wf abilities need to work and be useful. Her 2 is useless without the augment and show be good without it, and like I said it Was working on release so I get what op's saying and I agree her 2 needs to damn work properly. 

[(PSN)NinjaBlade626]

On 2024-03-29 at 2:23 PM, quxier said:

You put Decoy. Decoy is immortal. It uses your secondary. Your secondary has corrosive + heat (or other combinations). It melts lots of enemies without you even moving (because you can just hide).

Unless I'm missing something it's like old Wukong. You could just stand and he used your weapon. They nerfed him so you have to attack from time to time AND it uses your ammo. Loki would need similar treatment.

 

Where did I say anything about it dealing damage and killing anything, I said it procs impact so it will stagger not kill

 

On 2024-03-29 at 10:04 PM, Digital-Dreams said:

That is why I would prefer to make the change for the Decoy to be immortal, without changing any other aspects. I just don't see a reason for it to have health in the current state of Warframe.

Yes it makes no sense and it`s not practical you have to hit a specific spot to destroy a decoy (the projection) you can`t hit that unless your standing right in font of it.

 

On 2024-04-01 at 1:29 PM, (PSN)SonicShift7 said:

The way I see it All Wf abilities need to work and be useful. Her 2 is useless without the augment and show be good without it, and like I said it Was working on release so I get what op's saying and I agree her 2 needs to damn work properly. 

Thank you for getting it.

[(PSN)NinjaBlade626]

There are issues with the augment:

• Enemies sometimes don`t attack the enemy affected by decoy.
• The enemy affected attacks me even when invisible.
• It would be better if the affected enemy`s movement speed is decreased or stops moving completely.

 

I like the augment however it`s very inconsistent, also Loki needs more to his abilities as he is still underwhelming. Does he need a rework? NO does he need to be a damage dealer? NO but he needs a revisit to improve on what he has already to make him fight smart and strategic.

Spoiler

If you want an idea look here.

 

 

[owendawgx]

Completely agree with the sentiment here. 

The number 1 issue with this augment is that enemies don't attack it consistently. If it did, it would be legitimately amazing. As is, it's way too inconsistent. 

I really think it is worth the dev time to address this, they went to the trouble of adjusting Loki, I hope they would finish the job and make his abilities work properly. 

[otakuotaku]

Yea I noticed that too. They need to raise its threat priority to the maximum rather than just "high".

[Bionicme]

I second this. Sometimes enemies will just stop and stare into space while one of them is decoy'd. Often upon cast of decoy the targeted enemy will direction turn its' attention towards you, repeatedly shooting at the place you cast the ability from if stealthed, as mentioned, while other nearby enemies do nothing.

If they do successfully attack the decoy, its' effectiveness will usually be a bit hampered by the enemies getting stunned by electric or heat procs and the like, but perhaps that is only fair.