Instantly Knowing Where The Demolisher is Kinda Kills Disruption

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2024-03-31 at 11:30 PM, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

False

How about you go and play it, and be honest with yourself that it doesn't "automatically mark" as soon as you press the button, hell it doesn't even keep them marked once you find them, the marker vanishes as soon as you leave the audio range if you don't spot it

Oh how convenient of you to ignore what i said above and in the OP about 5 sec/5-10m one jump. Thanks for your DISHONESTY about this issue and your meaningless screenshot.

----------------------------

I've thoroughly tested it on:

• Olympus, Mars
• Laomedeia, Neptune
• Kappa, Sedna
• Lua, Apollo

And ofc Armatus.

Without fail, jumping once in the right direction locates the demolisher. Without fail. If I happen to jump in the wrong direction, it might take two. OR I just wait 5 seconds or so and then I know. Anyone denying this either hasn't played it or is being dishonest. And if it spawns close enough it WILL be instantaneous.

 

On 2024-03-31 at 11:27 PM, SpiritTeA said:

I did play some, Lua, Kuva Fortress, Mars and ofc the new one. Regarding “old” means every that isn’t new Albrecht’s lab tileset, because it’s new with enemy spawning in the next room. 

On old maps it was nothing like on new one, I still had to aim in right direction, sometimes demolitionist spawns closer, sometimes further, sometimes when Acolyte appears I can miss on any demolitionist markers at all untill it room away from me. 

 

I'm trying not to put words in your mouth but you aren't really being transparent about this.

"I still had to aim in the right direction" & 'acolytes sometimes occupy my attention' reads to me like: 'yeah ok, there is no searching, you're right'

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Oh how convenient of you to ignore what i said above and in the OP about 5 sec/5-10m one jump. Thanks for your DISHONESTY about this issue and your meaningless screenshot.

How dishonest of you to go and say that all it takes it one jump, 5/10M away.


Not only are the spawns at different lengths away from the player in different rooms, but they also aren't in the same direction, and for situations where you see the marker fast, guess what else you can experience fast? BEEP BEEP BEEP the sound of the demo.

[CrownOfShadows]

5 minutes ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

How dishonest of you to go and say that all it takes it one jump, 5/10M away.


Not only are the spawns at different lengths away from the player in different rooms, but they also aren't in the same direction, and for situations where you see the marker fast, guess what else you can experience fast? BEEP BEEP BEEP the sound of the demo.

Sigh, grow up dude.

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

9 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Sigh, grow up dude.

Is that your sole response to not one, but 2 images, and also a offer to upload a video up here of the game, when it's showing your claims aren't true?

I'm sorry that you're getting this worked up over people calling you out for this, but I myself have stated before that I personally didn't mind the previous version, infact I prefer when things are 'in universe'. however the claim that this 'changes the mode' is asinine, as it doesn't provide you the visual cue any earlier than it provides that beeping, and if you're able to see the marker, you're able to hear the beeping, it even flashes in the same pattern as the beep when you're not in "seeing the enemy" range.

The only way they could possibly ever 'improve it' (since like, it's synced up with the audio) is have the visual fade in to view as you get closer, but then again, you'd probably complain about that because "well you can still see it", just like how I can still hear it when I get close enough.

Also, you've claimed before that audio isn't directional, how can it not be directional if it's louder in my left ear when my camera is looking to the right of it? the audio has always been directional.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

Is that your sole response to not one, but 2 images, and also a offer to upload a video up here of the game, when it's showing your claims aren't true?

I'm sorry that you're getting this worked up over people calling you out for this, but I myself have stated before that I personally didn't mind the previous version, infact I prefer when things are 'in universe'. however the claim that this 'changes the mode' is asinine, as it doesn't provide you the visual cue any earlier than it provides that beeping, and if you're able to see the marker, you're able to hear the beeping, it even flashes in the same pattern as the beep when you're not in "seeing the enemy" range.

The only way they could possibly ever 'improve it' (since like, it's synced up with the audio) is have the visual fade in to view as you get closer, but then again, you'd probably complain about that because "well you can still see it", just like how I can still hear it when I get close enough.

Also, you've claimed before that audio isn't directional, how can it not be directional if it's louder in my left ear when my camera is looking to the right of it? the audio has always been directional.

If you're just going to cherry pick quotes and nitpick details and never admit to any point I ever make you aren't worth talking to. Show yourself to be reasonable and we can have a conversation.

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

4 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

If you're just going to cherry pick quotes and nitpick details and never admit to any point I ever make you aren't worth talking to. Show yourself to be reasonable and we can have a conversation.

because there's no point to admit too? Wow if the demolyst spawns close, you can hear and see their marker! just like how it was before, except now with a marker! Even without the marker, you can still point yourself in the direction via both moving towards it makes sound get louder, and moving camera shows it's directional audio, and it gets louder in one ear, it's that simple for people who can hear well, you have the exact same auditory experience as before, just now there's a little marker for people who aren't that well of hearing, it provides the exact same information at the same distances (earlier I said the marker range was a bit shorter, but on further testing, it was because the marker was in the middle of it's hiding phase, and there's a bit of desync between the audio beeps and the marker beeps, that you can fault me on.)

Same is true for your claim about how jumping 'in the right direction just shows you where it is!' well yeah, you know what else tells you that you did a jump in the right direction if you did? the demo doing that "BEEP BEEP". It works the same as it did before, it just now has a visual marker, again, could be implemented with a fade in, but hey, can't be perfect, still doesn't change how the mode is.

[(PSN)rexis12]

1 hour ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

Also, you've claimed before that audio isn't directional

Lmao what did he actually say that? 

So much for someone that 'really likes' Disruption. 

That's like the most basic mechanic for the game mode. 

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Ok a few things here:

1. Define "auditory range". (Not all of us have impressive sound systems turned up to the max, some of us are just on computers. Not all of us mute all other sounds)
2. The audio works fundamentally different because it starts low and gets louder. There is no visual alignment with this mechanic, it just marks it instantly. This is not what I would call "a tiny bit" of a discrepancy.
3. Compounding with the above issue, there are other audio things happening which (intentional or not) further obscure sounds especially when they are low volume. The visuals have no such additional layer of obscuration.
4. Further, the audio is not directional, it's proximal. Meaning you can hear the sound but you don't know exactly what direction it's coming from. This is not the case with the visuals where you know with absolute certainty the exact direction (and also the exact precise location of it, which is another thing sound cannot tell you).
5. Even further, for whatever reason the audio will often be blocked or significantly muted by doors or certain architecture, making it harder to find. Searching for it often involved opening doors to allow sound through or going down hallways or tunnels. Visuals suffer no such issues.
6. I'm aware of the design issues on Armatus and have previously commented on them.

yes @(PSN)rexis12, here's the quote.

[(PSN)rexis12]

19 minutes ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

yes @(PSN)rexis12, here's the quote.

Wow.

Just... 

Wow. 

[CrownOfShadows]

Allow me to correct these two clowns in case any adults happen by.

Audio cues have stereo but that is not directionality.

All video game audio works this way, there is no sound contouring in games like there is in the real world - sounds don't echo down hallways, they are played for the user and they can have stereo effects (left ear right ear) and they can be adjusted in volume and have fx on them, but they don't simulate sound shape based on geometry.

When you hear a sound in a video game, you are able to determine it's proximity based on it's volume, but you are not able to determine it's direction/vector, because it doesn't have one.

 

Clever dynamic use of stereo, which is quite advanced and rare, can simulate this to a small extent, but even then it is not true directionality because it is 2D and not 3D.

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

18 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Audio cues have stereo but that is not directionality.

14 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Clever dynamic use of stereo, which is quite advanced and rare, can simulate this to a small extent, but even then it is not true directionality because it is 2D and not 3D.

Which the game uses, the audio cues that have stereo accomplish the same goal, you can direct yourself based off the audio, if it's primarily (or in some cases entirely) in the left ear, the guy is to your left, same thing for the right, and if it's about equal, it's either forwards or backwards.

For the "how close and how far" you also have 2 indicators, which is getting closer makes noise louder, and also why would the noise be coming from the direction of the conduit, because if you're hearing the audio for a demo that just spawned, you're between the demo and the conduit, you put 2 and 2 together.

 

 

18 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Allow me to correct these two clowns in case any adults happen by.

Sad you have to result to namecalling instead though, when your points start getting poked at, and you get quoted for something you said.

Edited April 1 by rahetalius4.2.0CE
split the two points I made in two, in retrospect it should be that way.

[Tiltskillet]

4 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Allow me to correct these two clowns in case any adults happen by.

Audio cues have stereo but that is not directionality.

All video game audio works this way, there is no sound contouring in games like there is in the real world - sounds don't echo down hallways, they are played for the user and they can have stereo effects (left ear right ear) and they can be adjusted in volume and have fx on them, but they don't simulate sound shape based on geometry.

When you hear a sound in a video game, you are able to determine it's proximity based on it's volume, but you are not able to determine it's direction/vector, because it doesn't have one.

That's interesting, but try reversing your headphones sometime.  The last time playing WF I accidentally did this, I felt like my brain had turned upside down.  And more to the point, I couldn't track down Demolysts worth a ****, lol.

[CrownOfShadows]

Stereo manipulation is only helpful if it is directly to your left or right, otherwise it is not precise enough to locate off of. If you are facing the source head on or have your back to it, you receive zero directional information about it.

It also provides no information about it's vertical positioning.

 

On 2024-04-01 at 3:19 AM, Tiltskillet said:

That's interesting, but try reversing your headphones sometime.  The last time playing WF I accidentally did this, I felt like my brain had turned upside down.  And more to the point, I couldn't track down Demolysts worth a ****, lol.

Or if your speakers happen to be mixed up.

Edited April 1 by CrownOfShadows

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

It also provides no information about it's vertical positioning.

That seems true, based on how much more difficult I always found tracking Demos in Lua compared to other Disruption missions.  I disagree with you on stereo audio's general helpfulness though.

Largely moot now, of course.

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

2 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Stereo manipulation is only helpful if it is directly to your left or right, otherwise it is not precise enough to locate off of. If you are facing the source head on or have your back to it, you receive zero directional information about it.

what do you mean it's only helpful if it's directly in the left and right? I dunno if it's just me, but I can clearly hear the gradient in volume when turning the camera around, facing demo, turn my camera to the right, the audio in my right slooowwwllly drops, till obviously it's facing entirely left, any further turning makes that gradual sound return.

Also, again, we can infer that you're going to be standing between the demo and the conduit if you're hearing the demo, but can't tell where it is, so obviously you'll be moving away from the conduit,
also again again, you can infer the distance by the volume going up and down the closer, and the further you are to the demo

 

 

6 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

It also provides no information about it's vertical positioning.

if you're close enough to care about vertical positioning, then you're in a situation where you can most likely see the red circle emitted by a demo, also, you can figure out height, if you really need  too, by jumping, you may not have a speaker atop your head, or in the front and back, but you most certainly do have the ability to move the hearing implement all about in the game world and gauge distance by using that.

[(PSN)rexis12]

The best thing about thus, is that @CrownOfShadows trying to say that the auditory cue of Disruption being terrible means that Disruptions initial concept of using sound as a auditory indicator was flawed and that this wasn't just an accessibility improvement but an actual improvement in providing the necessary information for players to actually engage in the game mode.

So again, this is hilarious to me. 

"The game actually gives me the proper information?! This game mode is RUINED!!!!!"

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

25 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

The best thing about thus, is that @CrownOfShadows trying to say that the auditory cue of Disruption being terrible means that Disruptions initial concept of using sound as a auditory indicator was flawed and that this wasn't just an accessibility improvement but an actual improvement in providing the necessary information for players to actually engage in the game mode.

So again, this is hilarious to me. 

"The game actually gives me the proper information?! This game mode is RUINED!!!!!"

Honestly, on retrospect, it is funny, especially with the whole I think the audio is satisfactory in guiding the player, and I'm the one in support of people who need the visual aid having the visual aid, and that right now, besides maybe a fade in the closer you get to it (though that still would be obvious) it works just as the audio does, just visually instead of aurally.

[CrownOfShadows]

27 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

That seems true, based on how much more difficult I always found tracking Demos in Lua compared to other Disruption missions.  I disagree with you on stereo audio's general helpfulness though.

Largely moot now, of course.

Oh it's helpful, wasn't trying to say it's useless. It just has major blind spots and weaknesses.

If you have two tunnels in front of you, one leading off to the left and another leading off to the right, but both leading away in the same general direction (common on Olympus for sure) you are unable to tell which tunnel the sound is coming from even if you spin around.

Distance matters a lot with stereo. If the object is nearby stereo is more helpful (because you are rotating through degrees faster and causing it to modulate faster, allowing you to pinpoint it more precisely). But a distant object rapidly becomes relegated to hemispheres. This is true even with real-world sounds. Very distant sounds are very hard to get direction on.

[nslay]

On 2024-03-30 at 10:27 AM, Chewarette said:

Going a bit hard on superlatives there. You forgot "tedious" as well. Running into hallways hoping to hear the beep (hidden amongst Nora, Lotus or Alad telling you about their passionate lives), just for the demolyst to be found 300m away by a teammate and killed 5 seconds afterward while you're trying to reach him... Yeah, that's "tension", "suspense", "exploration" for sure

I'm also not sure where the "danger" is coming from though. I mean, just as dangerous as exterminate, survivals or defenses 

You still have the character dialogue sound turned on? There's a lot of sound-based hints in the game such that it's a disadvantage to hear any characters talking. For example, hidden Sabotage/Bounty caches make a sound, rare caches that reward boosters and Forma make a sound and the new laboratory syndicate medallions also make a sound. Same with in-game music... it is also a disadvantage to have in-game music turned on. DE put all these resources into voice acting and amazing in-game music that it baffles me that they added sound-based cues to the game at all! It was short-sighted IMO. Everything should have a visual equivalent somehow... for accessibility reasons and so that you are not at an advantage for simply turning off all in-game character dialogue sound and music.

IMO: I'd just like to add that hearing Lotus (or Nora!) or whoever tell you the same thing for the thousandth time (literally!) can drive you insane! It drives me crazy anyway! Bites you in the behind when you leave it off for quests though :(

 

[Chewarette]

5 hours ago, nslay said:

You still have the character dialogue sound turned on? There's a lot of sound-based hints in the game such that it's a disadvantage to hear any characters talking. For example, hidden Sabotage/Bounty caches make a sound, rare caches that reward boosters and Forma make a sound and the new laboratory syndicate medallions also make a sound. Same with in-game music... it is also a disadvantage to have in-game music turned on. DE put all these resources into voice acting and amazing in-game music that it baffles me that they added sound-based cues to the game at all! It was short-sighted IMO. Everything should have a visual equivalent somehow... for accessibility reasons and so that you are not at an advantage for simply turning off all in-game character dialogue sound and music.

IMO: I'd just like to add that hearing Lotus (or Nora!) or whoever tell you the same thing for the thousandth time (literally!) can drive you insane! It drives me crazy anyway! Bites you in the behind when you leave it off for quests though :(

 

Personnally, I'm keeping the in-game sounds because I like them. They're great for immersion, soundtrack is cool af, and I'm not getting tired of some dialogues.

[Drachnyn]

You can go on the technical level of how stereo sounds work or whatever all you want, it doesnt change the fact that hearing the beeping instantly told you the direction. Knowing the direction is everything you need to know to find the demo. All the marker does is even the playing field.

[Aruquae]

As someone with crappy hearing, this helps me so very much

Sure, just make it faded and blink in tune with the demolished noise, but keep the range as is… I can’t hear for S#&$ 

[Tsukinoki]

15 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Ok a few things here:

1. Define "auditory range". (Not all of us have impressive sound systems turned up to the max, some of us are just on computers. Not all of us mute all other sounds)
2. The audio works fundamentally different because it starts low and gets louder. There is no visual alignment with this mechanic, it just marks it instantly. This is not what I would call "a tiny bit" of a discrepancy.
3. Compounding with the above issue, there are other audio things happening which (intentional or not) further obscure sounds especially when they are low volume. The visuals have no such additional layer of obscuration.
4. Further, the audio is not directional, it's proximal. Meaning you can hear the sound but you don't know exactly what direction it's coming from. This is not the case with the visuals where you know with absolute certainty the exact direction (and also the exact precise location of it, which is another thing sound cannot tell you).
5. Even further, for whatever reason the audio will often be blocked or significantly muted by doors or certain architecture, making it harder to find. Searching for it often involved opening doors to allow sound through or going down hallways or tunnels. Visuals suffer no such issues.
6. I'm aware of the design issues on Armatus and have previously commented on them.

To answer your questions:

1. As I mentioned in the post: 1 to 2 rooms roughly.  That's it.
   Further it's funny how you complain that you can't hear it as well as other people...and then go on to defend that like that's a good thing?  Honestly with the marker you're getting the experience of someone with a good sound setup and the other sounds set to low/muted (not how I play personally but there are people who do that for various reasons)
2. Here's the thing: in 90-95% of cases, if you could hear the sound at all you knew exactly where it was coming from!  So how is the visual marker at that point any different?
   Especially since the marker fades in and out with the audio cue, meaning that between the series of beeps you have no clue where the demo is?
3. So basically you're saying "Hey, if I gimp myself by muting the in game audio the visual cue completely undoes that!!!!!"  And at that point I have to ask if you're actually being completely serious here.
   You're complaining that the visual cue puts you on level ground with the players who don't intentionally gimp their experience in the game mode.  And acting like that is a bad thing for some reason?
4. The audio has always been directional in a good stereo setup.  You could quite easily tell "Oh the demo is coming down on the right hand hallway, so head there and find it...."
   And again, if you were within the range to actually hear the cue you could already tell what direction the demo was in 90-95% of the time anyways due to how simple and straightforward the maps are in this game.  There wasn't any great amount of guess-work with the sound cues before, this just levels the playing fields between the people who had no problems with the sound cue system and the people that did.
5. And it works roughly the same here!  If the beeping would be blocked in game so it wouldn't play on your end it won't create an icon on the map to follow in game!  Further if the sound fades away or is cut off and you haven't gotten within sight of the demolyst the icon disappears as well, leaving you in the dark until the beeping starts again!
   Which is essentially how it worked before, just again with a leveled playing experience that doesn't screw over people who can't hear the beeps for one reason or another!

 

I mean seriously, you're complaining that a feature that levels the playing field is ruining the game mode and then utterly refusing to actually approach the conversation like a rational person when presented with evidence to the contrary.

The game mode hasn't been ruined.
Hek it hasn't even been noticeably changed with the addition.
You still need to head in the right direction of the demolyst to hear the beeps and see the icon on your minimap.  It still has a range limitation that is the same as the auditory cue that would tell you where the demolyst was before.  The only thing it does is actually level the playing field between the people who can hear the beeps and knew instantly where the demolyst was coming from and the people who couldn't.
And due to it not being 100% in sync the auditory cue pretty much always plays just slightly before the visual cue.

And to see you try to argue "But if your sound setup was terrible or you couldn't hear the sounds you don't deserve to know where the demolyst is coming from!!!' is kinda sad honestly.

14 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

As someone with crappy hearing, this helps me so very much

Sure, just make it faded and blink in tune with the demolished noise, but keep the range as is… I can’t hear for S#&$ 

Here's a neat thing: It already does!
Sure it's not a 100% perfect sync, especially if you aren't the host, but it does actually disappear and reappear with the beeps, so when the demolyst is quiet and you haven't spotted it then it doesn't appear on your minimap.

Edited April 1 by Tsukinoki

[Aruquae]

4 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Here's a neat thing: It already does!

:o

This is amazing! Usually I try to avoid disruption for obvious reasons, but now… I can finally farm base Gauss

Yay QoL win!

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

15 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

The audio has always been directional in a good stereo setup.  You could quite easily tell "Oh the demo is coming down on the right hand hallway, so head there and find it...."

I can't wait till you get a response saying that "stereo doesn't equal directionality" like the one I got in the last page.

Overall I have nothing else to add to your comment since I agree full heartedly with your words, just wanted to say that since I'm glad there's more people who are seeing that you can tell where the demo is by audio just as well as the visual marker, and that's always been the case. you get a like.