LoS Fixes for Dante’s Tragedy coming in next Hotfix

[Sir-Lorkhan]

à l’instant, Shodian87 a dit :

Okay, then don't? Lol

He's got other ones. I don't understand this mentality. 

Making a frame good only to ruin him after. You must be a Saryn main. More brain dead than her isnt possible. We should nerf her to then. Add los to her powers. 

[Shodian87]

Just now, Sir-Lorkhan said:

Making a frame good only to ruin him after. You must be a Saryn main. More brain dead than her isnt possible. We should nerf her to then. Add los to her powers. 

Okay. Also my most used Frame is Loki and Vauban.

[Digital_Malz]

4 minutes ago, Mayhem-Ivory said:

This is a joke. Nobody wants you to "fix" the line of sight. It needs to go completely.

Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with:

• Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning

This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible!

• to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight

Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam.

And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it.

Since I can't like multiple times, I'll share it. Just a simple and PERFECT argumentation.

[Nero.DMC]

2 minutes ago, Shodian87 said:

Okay, then don't? Lol

He's got other ones. I don't understand this mentality. 

That is the whole point... Dante was never going to pull the damage numbers other frames had but that was fine his kit was fun to play and responsive, you felt the weight of his abilities, now you hit 3 enemies and you are not really doing any damage, you can achieve much much better performance just shooting things, Dante whole thing as a "caster" frame is broken now for no reason at all beside some idiots complaining about him

[Gandalf_White]

Just now, Shodian87 said:

Okay, then don't? Lol

He's got other ones. I don't understand this mentality. 

...a floating book which is... more useless than your weapons, an exalted weapon which serves mostly as a status primer and owls which boost status damage. Both owls and noctua itself are meant to be used in conjuction with dark verse and tragedy... Overguard which dies the moment you go to steel path and the regen/s relies on you getting kills, again, meant to be synergised with tragedy..

[JonesmanThe64th]

Remove the line of sight, Just make it so team mates get half the overguard cap he has, if any, just to satisfy those still using chroma. The problems Dante had are actually problems with chroma's design and overguard mechanics on players.. fix those if they're broken. Don't break frames that use overguard. Make overguard HP with benefits. Have rage, chroma, and DR work with it.. otherwise its a pointless hp well in higher play and melts in seconds.

[Museigen]

45 minutes ago, Mayhem-Ivory said:

This is a joke. Nobody wants you to "fix" the line of sight. It needs to go completely.

Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with:

• Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning

This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible!

• to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight

Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam.

And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it.

Couldn't have said it better myself. This change actively took the tactical positioning out of Dante and just made the spam "strategy" the only viable option.
EDIT: But let's not focus on the LoS problem alone. The whole kit was gutted one way or another.

Edited April 5 by Museigen

[SudoSamurai]

This just needs a full revert, DE. 

This is not a change focused on fun, but on some imaginary power creep boogeyman. The only complaints people have are very specific, niche builds not wanting Overguard against their will. You even stated in your patch notes that "we recognized that it’s not the damage Dante can deal that needed to be addressed, but rather his accumulation of Overguard" and then completely removed his ability to box break or even hit enemies he can clearly see over a desk. Brozime's video and his comment at the end of "ok, well I'm not playing Dante anymore" are the perfect encapsulation of how this update feels. Nerfs that were not needed or wanted so poorly executed it boggles the mind.

As others have stated here, Dante was the first frame that really felt perfect for me. Love his aesthetic and loved his kit. It didn't matter that I wasn't match kill count or even that some squads were killing so fast that my overguard wasn't useful, it was just fun to play. Some games I got to carry squads, some games I only contributed a small amount. Just pure, unadulterated fun.

Please revert the LoS changes at the very least. I can live with less OG, but gimping his kit entirely just kills my excitement to keep playing, man.

[Zomiku]

16 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

We've been poring over your comments regarding the balance changes to Dante. We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. As with everything in Warframe, iteration is always possible, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how Dante feels now that these alterations are in your hands. 

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

We are still actively reading your feedback and encourage you to continue to share your constructive thoughts after spending time playing Dante with the changes. Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts with us thus far!

--
To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

@[DE]Megan  Can someone please explain to us your philosophy and vision to justify the need for this 'minor tweak'? Other Tenno here have provided plenty of reasons why it is detrimental in terms of enjoyability, game mechanics, and Dante's theme.

Maybe if you actually speak to players and describe your point of view, you could lower the tension, and perhaps most people would agree with your constructive argumentation.

And just to add my two cents about this philosophy:

Before the hotfix, you could tag one group with Verse, then tag another, and finally cast Tragedy to kill them (or not, it depends).
Now, you need to cast Verse on the first group, then on the second group, and position yourself correctly to hit them with Tragedy. Due to the LOS mechanic and moving enemies, there will be enemies that are not affected by Tragedy. Additionally, you can't cast another Tragedy to kill or damage them - you need to cast two Verses first.

Don't you think that such complicated actions for a game where we have really powerful nuking frames (or simply using firearms) is not just unnecessary, but also contrary to the game's core mechanics? It not only adds unnecessary complexity but also undermines the very philosophy of the game, which is centered around fluidity and impactful gameplay.

[yongluofanchen]

16小时前 , nicolajtheking2 说:

当谈到我们玩家想要的东西时，DE 可能相当顽固和/或愚蠢。

They will perish in arrogance, like the Orokines they created

[Nero.DMC]

12 minutes ago, Zomiku said:

@[DE]Megan  Can someone please explain to us your philosophy and vision to justify the need for this 'minor tweak'? Other Tenno here have provided plenty of reasons why it is detrimental in terms of enjoyability, game mechanics, and Dante's theme.

Maybe if you actually speak to players and describe your point of view, you could lower the tension, and perhaps most people would agree with your constructive argumentation.

And just to add my two cents about this philosophy:

Before the hotfix, you could tag one group with Verse, then tag another, and finally cast Tragedy to kill them (or not, it depends).
Now, you need to cast Verse on the first group, then on the second group, and position yourself correctly to hit them with Tragedy. Due to the LOS mechanic and moving enemies, there will be enemies that are not affected by Tragedy. Additionally, you can't cast another Tragedy to kill or damage them - you need to cast two Verses first.

Don't you think that such complicated actions for a game where we have really powerful nuking frames (or simply using firearms) is not just unnecessary, but also contrary to the game's core mechanics? It not only adds unnecessary complexity but also undermines the very philosophy of the game, which is centered around fluidity and impactful gameplay.

you actually need to spam tragedy now, there is no reason to position yourself at all you will hit enemies based mostly on luck anyway...

the enemy is at a sligly different elevation? 0 damage
the enemy is behind other enemy? 0 damage

the enemy body is 80% visible but its behind a tiny box? 0 damage

so now you spam tragedy and hope for the best, tbh dante just feel like crap to play, you dont hit stuff right in front of you... DE really really screwed it so much this time awful change. They rushed this S#&$ change and they should be ashamed after reasuring us they would not do exactly this... yet they did it anyway lying to our faces multiple times...

[GamerWitch5]

My thing is that Dante wasn’t  a direct click to kill frame you have to build status effects and cast an ability 2x for him to have good damage so its not like other frames where you can click a button and clear the room… The nerf was extreme especially because no one at least not the majority of players said anything about the damage he was dealing just overguard. It’s really sad because i was so excited about him and now i feel like if i play him others will think of it as a burden that im using him. Brozime even said it there was not enough time with him played to justify this kind of nerf. I know everyone is asking so literally just undo the “fix” to him so we can enjoy him again… and maybe in the future do what you did with mirage and ask the community what we think should be done and not just do it……..

[DogeManX]

Revert it please DE. Dante feels so horrible to use now. 

[Mayhem-Ivory]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb [DE]Momaw:

 

We appreciate the video, since it showcases the problem with the current Line of Sight checks in a very analytical and accurate way.  However, the behavior in the video is what is being fixed. See attached video for the upcoming improvements to how we check for LOS that were mentioned in the first post.

I believe you are missing the point. This is a red mark; it is evidence that no thought or testing went into that change. It reeks of knee-jerk reaction; otherwise such a blatant mistake wouldn't have made it into the game to begin with.

You claimed to be listening to the community; and yet even though the community was in total agreement for the first time in ages, you did the exact thing people asked you not to. You touched Tragedy - not just that, you made it unfun. And that after you yourself stated in that same hotfix that Dante's damage was not an issue to begin with. All the while removing Pageflights interaction for ... dealing too much damage.

The reason people are posting this is not to make you aware of just how bad the LoS is; they are posting it because it is a big red handprint that shows how thoughtless and without reason this change was from the perspective of the community. It shows you are playing fast and loose, rather than trying to understand the situation.

It's a sign of people losing trust in your ability to properly address this situation. Which is a real shame with how much goodwill the new team had gotten with the community due to all the recent Quality of Life improvements.

Edited April 5 by Mayhem-Ivory
typo

[Melonbro53]

Since people only complained about Dante giving out too much overgaurd, why was his damage nerfed too? Why was Pageflight nerfed, why was Tragedy nerfed? Now the best way to play Dante is subsuming over Dark Verse with a damage buff while spamming Noctua and Triumph.  

[Zabor44]

Hi, I mainly play Yareli (not even a fan of the new Loyal Merulina augment because I think it detracts from the appeal of the frame), Wisp and Xaku. When I stumbled on Dante I found a compelling and exiting new frame to play with. 

Overall the OG nerf isn't that terrible per se, but as stated form other members it doesn't still solve the main issue, not triggering Hunter Adrenalin-like mods and effects, so, no real fix there. 

Fortunately I didn't invest much in the frame, even if I was planning to do so. But the LoS nerf is pretty much unacceptable. It detracts from the cool mechanic of "tagging" enemies in different rooms with statuses and the punishing with its Tragedy ability. As another user suggested somewhere else (I don't remember where) maybe remove the LoS requirement but make tragedy a cone ability a bit like Dark Verse. At the moment it's simply better to just spam Dark Verse for damage and don't use Tragedy at all. If it wasn't for Pageflight and Warden I would simply swap Final Verse with another helminth ability.

Also, I don't think that a week from release is enough to assess his "domiance": it's a new frame, has a cool and well-thought kit that synergizes well, what did you expect would happen? It's just normal that many many people wants to try and fine-tune the newest toy. It's also incredibly easy to farm.

A full revert would not solve the main issue (OG) but at this point I think it's the only thing to do to regain some trust from the playerbase. I can't imagine the frustration of people having bought it day one for 15 bucks and maybe having invested plats and a lot of formas on him. This behaviour is just joking with the average player free time.

If you say you listen to the community, then it would be extremely easy to understand the vast majority point of view and take actions accordingly.

Dante is still "fun" to play as, but fun in a "casual" sense. In this state there are simply better options at all the things he does and I think he will soon be forgotten.

 

P.S.: Sorry for any typos or grammar errors but english is not my main launguage.

Edited April 5 by Zabor44

[DeadlyDullahan]

50 minutes ago, Shodian87 said:

Dante will be fine once they fix LoS. He's still fun to plqy.

There are other frames that have been suffering from LOS issues for several years now and those complaints have fallen on deaf ears. I'm highly skeptical the general attitude towards addressing long standing issues is going to change overnight and while I'm sure a majority of the community would be ecstatic about the idea of DE going back and fixing said issues, as they have done before with other issues and with some success, I highly doubt they view these things as being at the top of their priority list right now when they're actively continuing to implement the same broken systems into future content and then expecting us to not be upset about it. What's being offered here is not a fix or a solution, it's another thrown together patch-job overtop an increasingly problematic pattern wherein rather than taking a step back it's easier for them to kick this can down the road to deal with it another day.

That said- it's their game and however they choose to handle this is entirely up to them but frankly it has felt disingenuous and disappointing knowing how capable they've been in the past about being on the same page with the community and yet somehow repeatedly managing to be so egregiously tone deaf in the face of criticism.

[Crackensan]

17 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

We've been poring over your comments regarding the balance changes to Dante. We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. As with everything in Warframe, iteration is always possible, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how Dante feels now that these alterations are in your hands. 

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

We are still actively reading your feedback and encourage you to continue to share your constructive thoughts after spending time playing Dante with the changes. Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts with us thus far!

--
To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

As a note; Gyre can do this https://new.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1bwb38m/in_honor_of_dantes_nerf_here_is_gyre_nuking_a/

Is she also lined up for a LOS nerf too?

[Rich_Rulez]

I'm confused

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

And yet all I'm seeing is REVERT THE CHANGES. Is this the reason why he was nerfed initially? Because sprinkled through the comments ppl asked for a nerf, when clearly that wasn't the majority of players.

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 hours ago, Waeleto said:

I agree 100%, people complained about the overguard dante GIVES to allies so they proceeded to nerf HIS OWN overguard by 60%, that was so disrespectful and uncalled for

No need for me to even talk about tragedy nerfs that is just hilarious, this whole situation feels like a circus

Indeed

3 hours ago, KaosKuantico said:

If only this could bee the official hotfix. I would be fine as long as they remove the Line of Sight 

I only wish as well

it's a simple fix as well, just revert it all and either reduce the hek out of OG on allies or remove all altogether, or better yet to your job and make mods like Rage work with OG, rather than Nerf, nerf, nerf

They claim to listen to feedback but look at the 1st 3 posts with over 100 likes, it's gonna be ignored, only time we had a revert was cuz people started to take this matter to twitter IIRC

Edited April 5 by Circle_of_Psi

[NuxWalpurgis]

1 hour ago, Mayhem-Ivory said:

This is a joke. Nobody wants you to "fix" the line of sight. It needs to go completely.

Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with:

• Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning

This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible!

• to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight

Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam.

And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it.

Quoting this post because it pretty succinctly describes the actual problem with your nerf philosophy and overall design philosophy, DE.

It's flagrantly obvious that you don't actually PLAY the game you're trying to balance, especially when the entirety of everyone's complaints with Dante had NOTHING to do with his abilities and everything to do with Overguard as a mechanic.

These changes don't need a rework. They don't need a line of sight fix. They don't need some tweaking and rebalancing.

 

They need to be reverted entirely. 5 days from the newest warframe's release is NOT enough time to gather data for an actual minor tweak, much less the absurdity of this nerf. It killed his identity less than two days after most players who didn't buy Dante could even play him.

 

If you want constructive feedback, consider this. Unless this change is reverted, I'm not buying any new release frames or weapons until I'm aware that they aren't going to be nerfed into irrelevance with false justifications when Octavia can render Steel Path an AFK-fest. Especially when your own words about "minor tweaks" and "not touching damage" and "taking time to carefully consider balance and stats first" are outright lies.

 

This was a nerf. And you lied about it.

[UmbralHalo]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Nero.DMC:

you actually need to spam tragedy now, there is no reason to position yourself at all you will hit enemies based mostly on luck anyway...

the enemy is at a sligly different elevation? 0 damage
the enemy is behind other enemy? 0 damage

the enemy body is 80% visible but its behind a tiny box? 0 damage

so now you spam tragedy and hope for the best, tbh dante just feel like crap to play, you dont hit stuff right in front of you... DE really really screwed it so much this time awful change. They rushed this S#&$ change and they should be ashamed after reasuring us they would not do exactly this... yet they did it anyway lying to our faces multiple times...

FR. They keep lying nowadays. I think we should get used to it.

 

Them: We won't change after Tencent bought us. 

 

They changed. 

 

Them: We'll fix the raids and bring them back.

 

The raids are dead, like so many other promises.

 

Them: We won't repeat stuff like Excalibur Prime.

 

They introduced the Heirloom Collection.....

 

Only thing we can do, is speak with our wallets, bc they don't listen to their players anymore like Past-DE did. I feel like they take a lot for granted nowadays. They are in such a position now, that they can show their true colours and not go bankrupt by doing so. It will just be interesting to see, what their true colours are going to look like.

Edited April 5 by UmbralHalo

[Kenshikon]

We literally just want this hot fix gone, calling it heavy handed would be an understatement 

1 minute ago, UmbralHalo said:

To be fair, not the first time they are lying to us. I think we should be used to it by now.

 

Them: We won't change after Tencent bought us. 

 

They changed. 

 

Them: We'll fix the raids and bring them back.

 

The raids are dead, like so many other promises.

 

Them: We won't repeat stuff like Excalibur Prime.

 

They introduced the Heirloom Collection.....

 

Only thing we can do, is speak with our wallets, bc they don't listen to their players anymore like Past-DE did. I feel like they take a lot for granted nowadays. They are in such a position now, that they can show their true colours and not go bankrupt by doing so. It will just be interesting to see, what their true colours are going to look like.

I am legit never spending money again if this is the treatment DE gives to players

[Stelthmastr]

17 hours ago, CjoewD said:

Since LoS is not getting reverted, can I just get a refund? Ive never asked for a refund in my like 11-10 years of playing. Is there a request ticket i can fill out?

I already put a ticket in asking for a refund on the platinum and forma I already spent on Dante and Noctua. It was denied within 3 hours.

 

16 hours ago, DanteTheHawk said:

Can we just get our refunds? I would like my plat and forma back and you can have your nerfed Warframe. 

Unfortunately I already put a ticket in for a refund and it was denied extremely fast. They said they can only refund purchases "if the item isn't used." Excuse me, what? 

[DeadlyDullahan]

10 minutes ago, Rich_Rulez said:

I'm confused

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

And yet all I'm seeing is REVERT THE CHANGES. Is this the reason why he was nerfed initially? Because sprinkled through the comments ppl asked for a nerf, when clearly that wasn't the majority of players.

The issue is LOS as a whole. 1 quick remedy hotfix to address the most immediately noticeable issues pertaining specifically to Dante is not going to save us from future issues that will arise with the LOS system in its current state. short of giving it the proper attention it needs what this will end up looking like is future LOS bugs & issues that will go months or years without being fixed because it's not at the top of the priority list which ultimately means shelving the frame depending on how bad said bugs & issues are. That whole headache of a scenario is easily avoidable in this situation by just not having LOS and instead tuning something else about the ability to keep it more in line with what they expect its performance to be. DE is literally creating more work for themselves that they'll inevitably neglect because of more pressing concerns and priorities. The addition of LOS is by no means necessary and is roughly the equivalent of taking the nuclear option in terms of balancing.