Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[Roble_Viejo]

Completely missed the main issue AGAIN: Dante's Overguard regeneration
to allies is MANDATORY to his kit, so he negates HP builds just by playing

Gauss 2, Hunter Adrenaline, anything that requires DMG to HP is turned off.
You nerfed Dante exactly in the wrong way and the LoS mess up his theme.
You took away what made Dante a Wizard, your ruined his whole flavor.

The Line of Sight to his other abilities needs to be REMOVED completely

Beyond all of this, releasing a new Warframe, including it in 2 Platinum bundles
and a Supporter Pack and then nerfing it, all in the span of 1 week, is nothing
short of nonsensical. This is bad PR, it reminds me of the old days of Scott's Nerf
Hammer, when nerfs would be done for pettiness and kept out of stubbornness.

[Mohawk666ImI]

2 hours ago, MistressOfDreams said:

Tell me you never played Warframe without telling me you never played warframe

I'm Mr 25. Only reason I ain't 30 is I was too lazy. So yes I've played it

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

20 minutes ago, RivaAurelius said:

And line of sight on saryn's spores would be stupid.

Yes, Saryn's entire design centers around an intensely overpowered mechanic. I carried Elite Archimedea with it yesterday, full stripping enemies and killing essentially everything. It was basically the first content in a while that I felt might justify using her.

There was a wonderful post that someone quoted off reddit to me, showing how Pablo has (with good humor) given up on trying to fix it. There are other frames that already have LoS that can use the improvements from this patch, and others yet still that can probably use the same LoS nerf without doing much except turning off deletion of enemies in other halls. Saryn's core design might not allow for such a thing, but her overpowered state shouldn't open the floodgates to even  more frames that clean maps, enemy unseen.

There's essentially no interest in Warframe if enemies don't do something to hinder the player, and far too many builds allow this already. We don't need more of them.

[KaosKuantico]

Stop, just stop. Do rollback, stop with the hotfixes. You guys are doing what no one asked you to do. Remove the line of sight, give us the original overguard. Just stop of messing and making it worse. Dante's update could have been a huge win, but it's getting worse with each "fix".

[MrBeat2827]

50 minutes ago, ClockworkDirge said:

Sorry Pablo, but this is not at all a fix to the issues being reported and feedback the entire community is giving you. Revert the changes entirely and just remove/reduce the Overguard given to allies. That’s all that thread you guys responded to asked for.

 

And if you keep digging in your heels on this unnecessary change that didn’t even fix the anti-synergy with very niche builds; refund those of us who paid our hard-earned money on the supporter pack and paid platinum for the Warframe bundle because you all outright lied about what you were planning to do.

I’d like this idea but where do I ask for a refund?

[Gryzbi]

Damn people don't realise Dante is freaking abbuse, open your eyes, if you have a Dante in your party no one can die, no risk and no fun (the damage, the overguard spread all are too strong).

Dante is still too powerfull even with the "balance" DE make, less overshield but a better regen of it ? it's litterally a buff, i would love get an overguard regen on Kullervo, it's much more stong.

I'm thinking about the Chroma players who can't play like "Chroma" or the "rage mod" players who can't gain energy, "Avengers arcane" who can't gain the critical buff, ect...

 People have the habit to be babysitted and it's not good at all, personnaly if i was in charge of the balance, i did a much more hard nerf, so he can be more competitve with the other Frames.

I support DE and hope they not surrender to the afk players and continue to balance the game to make it fun, not borring and lame.

[nicolajtheking2]

6 minutes ago, DarthVZ said:

Last hotfix: We listened to SOME of your feedback and implemented NONE of it. 

Let me fix that for ya.
"Last hotfix: We listened to NONE of your feedback and implemented NONE of it. "

[bokoblinprime]

il y a 1 minute, Gryzbi a dit :

Damn people don't realise Dante is freaking abbuse, open your eyes, if you have a Dante in your party no one can die, no risk and no fun (the damage, the overguard spread all are too strong).

Dante is still too powerfull even with the "balance" DE make, less overshield but a better regen of it ? it's litterally a buff, i would love get an overguard regen on Kullervo, it's much more stong.

I'm thinking about the Chroma players who can't play like "Chroma" or the "rage mod" players who can't gain energy, "Avengers arcane" who can't gain the critical buff, ect...

 People have the habit to be babysitted and it's not good at all, personnaly if i was in charge of the balance, i did a much more hard nerf, so he can be more competitve with the other Frames.

I support DE and hope they not surrender to the afk players and continue to balance the game to make it fun, not borring and lame.

and that's why you aren't in balance

 

[StarkillerHDX]

At the very least... could you add the Pageflight Status Damage back? I simply cannot understand why that functionality has been axed, out of all things. You (DE) have said yourself that Dante's problem was his Overguard, not his ability to deal damage. So why has Pageflight lost this crucial aspect of its ability, its main damage source? Just because it was undocumented? Please document it then, instead of removing it! It is not even overpowered or anything, trivializing every enemy he comes across. It is practically redundant for most enemies. It is just neat to have for niche and specific purposes. And Warframes should have niches that they excel at, right? Isn't that the whole point of having different Warframes? In this case, Dante is a support that can kill lower tier enemies, provide protection for teammates, and his niche is that he provide additional damage to status resistant foes. I'd love to see it back!

Still, I am grateful that you have bettered Tragedy's Line of Sight check, even if it largely ignores the community input in that front.

Thank you.

[KaosKuantico]

hace 4 minutos, Gryzbi dijo:

Damn people don't realise Dante is freaking abbuse, open your eyes, if you have a Dante in your party no one can die, no risk and no fun (the damage, the overguard spread all are too strong).

Dante is still too powerfull even with the "balance" DE make, less overshield but a better regen of it ? it's litterally a buff, i would love get an overguard regen on Kullervo, it's much more stong.

I'm thinking about the Chroma players who can't play like "Chroma" or the "rage mod" players who can't gain energy, "Avengers arcane" who can't gain the critical buff, ect...

 People have the habit to be babysitted and it's not good at all, personnaly if i was in charge of the balance, i did a much more hard nerf, so he can be more competitve with the other Frames.

I support DE and hope they not surrender to the afk players and continue to balance the game to make it fun, not borring and lame.

This is PVE game, go play solo

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

Just now, KaosKuantico said:

This is PVE game, go play solo

This is a coop PVE game. Designers shouldn't allow it to become a race to the bottom on speed nuking the missions when you don't play solo.

TBH, since that has already happened, they shouldn't let it get worse.

[BloodyPrimeSkull]

It's finally decided, Dante flies into the trash. Have you ever tried to play SP on a piece of S#&$? the #*!%ing OG flies away in seconds, all the time you have to rewire the defense, so as not to fly away in a couple of seconds, and when, excuse me, to attack? This S#&$ is in the trash, I'm going back to my beautiful Nidus and I won't steam my brain. heh, I liked the new frame.. #*!% it all and all your new frames. So that I can bring you at least one more cent. It's a shame. #*!% you

[Waeleto]

7 minutes ago, Gryzbi said:

Damn people don't realise Dante is freaking abbuse, open your eyes, if you have a Dante in your party no one can die, no risk and no fun (the damage, the overguard spread all are too strong).

Dante is still too powerfull even with the "balance" DE make, less overshield but a better regen of it ? it's litterally a buff, i would love get an overguard regen on Kullervo, it's much more stong.

I'm thinking about the Chroma players who can't play like "Chroma" or the "rage mod" players who can't gain energy, "Avengers arcane" who can't gain the critical buff, ect...

 People have the habit to be babysitted and it's not good at all, personnaly if i was in charge of the balance, i did a much more hard nerf, so he can be more competitve with the other Frames.

I support DE and hope they not surrender to the afk players and continue to balance the game to make it fun, not borring and lame.

You're missing the point, WE are asking for dante to NOT give allies overguard, DE doesn't seem to WANT to implement this change

Pre nerf feedback: keep dante's damage and self overguard he's fun, remove dante's ally overguard because it's disruptive to chroma/nidus/inaros
The nerf that this feedback cause: nerfed dante's own overguard, nerfed dante's dmg, dante still disruptive to chroma/nidus/inaros

[Zeow31]

il y a 2 minutes, Zooloo-the-Raven a dit :

This is a coop PVE game. Designers shouldn't allow it to become a race to the bottom on speed nuking the missions when you don't play solo.

TBH, since that has already happened, they shouldn't let it get worse.

Then delete Saryn. They're not making the race to the bottom any better, they're just making sure there's only a single winner.

[KaosKuantico]

hace 3 minutos, Zooloo-the-Raven dijo:

This is a coop PVE game. Designers shouldn't allow it to become a race to the bottom on speed nuking the missions when you don't play solo.

TBH, since that has already happened, they shouldn't let it get worse.

That only happens in low mission levels, like with every warframe

[Halo]

3 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Quick Hot Take: 

Nerf Saryn, your pride and joy, then
Nerf Frost then
Nerf Mag harder then
Nerf Harrow then
Nerf Equinox then
Nerf Caliban then
Nerf Khora then
Nerf Hydroid then
Nerf Baruuk then
Nerf Gauss then
Nerf Trinity then
Nerf Ember then
Nerf Styanax harder then
Nerf Lavos then
Nerf Limbo then
Nerf Mirage HARDER then
Nerf Loki then (you won't even look at him since it's "past his time" anyway)
Nerf Protea then (an upcoming prime)
Nerf Garuda then

You wanna go full scorched earth? Then do it already, because this is where it's leading to. 

I can go on forever at this rate, but these frames will be affected by such, and that isn't everyone, and if this does really occur, we're living in a goddamn crappy reality...

Edited April 5 by Halo

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

9 minutes ago, Zeow31 said:

Then delete Saryn. They're not making the race to the bottom any better, they're just making sure there's only a single winner.

Or, I could just leave her in the warframe slot and rarely use her, which is already the case.

Don't resort to emotionally charged demands, either of me or of people balancing the game. A bad situation isn't handled by making it worse or failing harder, and my mastery of the game isn't made "better" by deleting things when I can just shelve them and do something else.

[Mayhem-Ivory]

Let me just explain for a moment what you did with Dante and his Tragedy:

You know tose weapons that can be placed in locations and detonated later? Things like the Penta, Castanas, Talons, or most recently the Aegrit. You throw them into places or onto enemies, and then you press a button and they go boom.

All these weapons are already not good; more appropriate to say, they are all bad (even the Aegrit after the ammo nerf).

Now, imagine if these weapons required Line of Sight and had a maximum range as well while we're at it. Imagine they had a timer, and you'd just lose the grenade along with the ammo you spend if you dont trigger them within a few seconds while looking at them. Suddenly they would feel pretty awful; you couldn't even move through a curved hallway without them being deactivated automatically.

Thats what you did to Dante. He tags enemies - and he is supposed to be able to move around and tag a lot of groups - but now if he is in the wrong place, its impossible for him to detonate the tagged enemies.

It's not fun. I had fun, now I don't. That is why I'm upset. The way you guys went about it just makes me disappointed.

[ShaloomHD]

18 minutes ago, Gryzbi said:

Damn people don't realise Dante is freaking abbuse, open your eyes, if you have a Dante in your party no one can die, no risk and no fun (the damage, the overguard spread all are too strong).

Dante is still too powerfull even with the "balance" DE make, less overshield but a better regen of it ? it's litterally a buff, i would love get an overguard regen on Kullervo, it's much more stong.

I'm thinking about the Chroma players who can't play like "Chroma" or the "rage mod" players who can't gain energy, "Avengers arcane" who can't gain the critical buff, ect...

 People have the habit to be babysitted and it's not good at all, personnaly if i was in charge of the balance, i did a much more hard nerf, so he can be more competitve with the other Frames.

I support DE and hope they not surrender to the afk players and continue to balance the game to make it fun, not borring and lame.

DANTE is powerful when your playing low end stuff... taking in endless til you hit 300 plus level then tell me OG or dante is powerfull you fool and OG regen again is like hp regen at high content nothing do you plsy the same game has we do? 

then with chroma DE needs to change OG to class has hp not nerf dante 

and dante is the only babysitting frame? lol get real 

dante wasnt a AFK frame have you played him in high content? or you still on base star chart get in the bin with all this trash your pulling out you mouth 

[Syrtica]

4 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Sorry if I'm not understanding this right, but will this create a difference in LoS ability performance based on client settings? For example, in dense enemy crowds, would someone with max FoV hit more enemies than someone with min FoV (due to the relative sensitivity of rendered vs raycast)?

EDIT: nvm, been reading posts coming in and it looks like client settings do affect things, in addition to the Warframe itself blocking LoS.

Edited April 5 by Syrtica

[Zeow31]

il y a 9 minutes, Zooloo-the-Raven a dit :

Or, I could just leave her in the warframe slot and rarely use her, which is already the case.

Don't resort to emotionally charged demands, either of me or of people balancing the game. A bad situation isn't handled by making it worse or failing harder, and my mastery of the game isn't made "better" by deleting things when I can just shelve them and do something else.

OK ... So, you say that brainless speed nuking is bad and when I point out that there is so much worse nukers out there you answer is ... "But I don't use her tho'" ?

You do realize you're not the only one playing this game, right ? ESO has been an AFK farm for years no matter what you bring because there will always be a Saryn in there.

Edit :

I'm not making emotionally charged demands, I demand consistency. Nerfing Dante like they did within a week after a decade of Saryn dominance makes it pretty clear who's the favourite kid here. Pretending this hotfix does anything for balance is like saying me recycling offsets the pollution of the nearby Asbestos mill.

Edited April 5 by Zeow31

[MetallicPulse]

For all of this commotion the community, if this is going to stay the way it is on Friday - people deserve their platinum back from the bundles bought. Realistically you can't just gut a frame, issue minimal changes so it's less worse and just ;eave it for a weekend.

The warframe youtubers were  staving for content, your casual playerbase wasn't around. 

Money was made off the update.

This really feels like the quota was achieved, send in the artillery and nuke Dante's kit. That is not how your players want to feel, and not how a business should be run. Extremely predatory behavior it needs to be reverted and you guys need to start restructuring how you approach nerfs especially with your timing.

[Melonbro53]

5 hours ago, Vazumongr said:

I guess I'm in the minority when I say I am in favor of LoS checks and believe that mindless one-button-nukes in a 30m+ radius are bad for the overall health of the game in majority of cases. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Dante isn't a "one-button-nuke" he takes time to set up his nuke fully, like casting page flight(3 casts), then two dark verses, then tragedy. That is 6 ability casts. Other nuke frames only need 2-3 casts for their nuke, and half of those go through walls. Dante was over nerfed and people are rightly mad about it. 

 

Fully revert Dante changes or give Saryn LoS on spores and misama 

[ShaloomHD]

2 minutes ago, Melonbro53 said:

Fully revert Dante changes or give Saryn LoS on spores and misama 

and the rest of the nukers and ccs i feel like they shouldnt pick and choose what frame should and shouldnt have LOS either all them should or all of them shouldnt have 

[StarkillerHDX]

I've just read a great idea on a Reddit thread about Tragedy, by Cross66. I think it would be a fantastic compromise. Apologies if it has already been mentioned here.

Keep the LoS restrictions that Dante has now, but, enemies specifically hit by Dark Verse get "marked", either for a few seconds or indefinitely, doesn't matter. Marked enemies will be hit by Tragedy regardless of whether they're in LoS (but within range of course). That way, the Dark Verse and Tragedy combo stays consistent and reliable, but makes Dante unable to mindlessly nuke low level maps with Tragedy without even looking at anything.