We Don't Want Tragedy's LOS "Fixed", We Want It REMOVED.

[Mr.Holyroller]

2 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Dante is hardly the first frame capable of that

If anything that proves my point? His damage output with abilities is already higher than it needs to be for how much overguard he can give everyone in a few seconds compared to frost or stayanax

[LordOfKenpo]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

If anything that proves my point? His damage output with abilities is already higher than it needs to be for how much overguard he can give everyone in a few seconds compared to frost or stayanax

Kullervo can get to 20-30k og in seconds and then nuke a room also, the only difference is, his is dependent on having a good melee weapon

[Nimogrea]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

If anything that proves my point? His damage output with abilities is already higher than it needs to be for how much overguard he can give everyone in a few seconds compared to frost or stayanax

Frost and styanax do damage while they throw out their overguard though, and they can both do it quite quickly as well. I don't understand this line of reasoning. Are frames not allowed to be defensive and offensive? Or are we not allowed to do support and damaging abilities in the same warframe? Aren't those the hallmarks of good frames?

[Mr.Holyroller]

2 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

Kullervo can get to 20-30k og in seconds and then nuke a room also, the only difference is, his is dependent on having a good melee weapon

Right and kullervo can only give it to himself and is designed to be a melee weapon platform

[Mr.Holyroller]

2 minutes ago, Nimogrea said:

Frost and styanax do damage while they throw out their overguard though, and they can both do it quite quickly as well. I don't understand this line of reasoning. Are frames not allowed to be defensive and offensive? Or are we not allowed to do support and damaging abilities in the same warframe? Aren't those the hallmarks of good frames?

You have to draw a line somewhere.

Otherwise you just get more Octavia situations.

There are a lot of frames in the game and things to consider on what frames should/shouldn't be able to do. The entire concept of a frame being mediocre or needing a rework is based on what other frames can output.

Frost has plenty of things that keep in in check with having one of the lowest energy max in the game and avalanche having a short base range.

 

 

 

[Nimogrea]

1 minute ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

You have to draw a line somewhere.

Otherwise you just get more Octavia situations.

There are a lot of frames in the game and things to consider on what frames should/shouldn't be able to do. The entire concept of a frame being mediocre or needing a rework is based on what other frames can output.

Frost has plenty of things that keep in in check with having one of the lowest energy max in the game and avalanche having a short base range.

 

 

 

Again though why is it fine if the two of them can easily and quickly give out overguard *while doing damage and possibly armor stripping*, but when dante just gives overguard it's too much? Is it the damage on his other abilities? Because while his damage is good it's really not top tier.

[Darkbring]

DE still dont want to admit their choice to add LoS was a mistake.
Well, guess we have to wait for another week.

[Stormandreas]

Gonna blow your mind... DARK VERSE HAS ALWAYS HAD AN LOS CHECK, and Tragedys main source of DoTs is from Dark verse.

Now get this... Tragedy having an LoS does literally nothing to hamper it. Infact, it keeps in inline with all the rest of Dantes abilities. NOT ONLY THAT, Tragedy inadvertendly always had an LOS check because of Dark verse.

Stop crying about it and actually play the game.

On 2024-04-06 at 5:54 AM, UnKun said:

Yes, after testing again, the new LoS is still terrible. It's hard to know what you're going to hit when using a skill from the center. and sometime it still bug. Why don't they just let Dante rise to the Best of Best, like Saryn Octavia Mesa?

As I was writing the above, I noticed your comment.....

Octavia requires LoS

Mesa requires LoS

Dante does 10x more damage than either of them (i.e. he easily hits into the millions without any effort, THROUGH ARMOUR). Mesa and Octavia do not do that. Plus, Dantes range is FAR higher, and he generates Overguard. He completely rolls Saryn, Octavia and Mesa.

[LordOfKenpo]

32 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Gonna blow your mind... DARK VERSE HAS ALWAYS HAD AN LOS CHECK, and Tragedys main source of DoTs is from Dark verse.

Now get this... Tragedy having an LoS does literally nothing to hamper it. Infact, it keeps in inline with all the rest of Dantes abilities. NOT ONLY THAT, Tragedy inadvertendly always had an LOS check because of Dark verse.

Stop crying about it and actually play the game.

It does affect it. It changes the way the frame plays as you can't prime multiple groups of enemies and then detonate them all at once with tragedy. The play is now more brainless and less fun. You just also made the argument for why he doesn't need LoS, he's already limited on his priming to LoS so why should a detonator ability have it. This makes it much less fun to play him as now you have to stop in front of a group of enemies and cast 3 abilities and can't keep moving in a game based around moving fast.

[OnestarMike]

2 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

Gonna blow your mind... DARK VERSE HAS ALWAYS HAD AN LOS CHECK, and Tragedys main source of DoTs is from Dark verse.

Now get this... Tragedy having an LoS does literally nothing to hamper it. Infact, it keeps in inline with all the rest of Dantes abilities. NOT ONLY THAT, Tragedy inadvertendly always had an LOS check because of Dark verse.

Stop crying about it and actually play the game.

As I was writing the above, I noticed your comment.....

Octavia requires LoS

Mesa requires LoS

Dante does 10x more damage than either of them (i.e. he easily hits into the millions without any effort, THROUGH ARMOUR). Mesa and Octavia do not do that. Plus, Dantes range is FAR higher, and he generates Overguard. He completely rolls Saryn, Octavia and Mesa.

You're just so so so wrong on so many levels...

If I prime just one group of targets, and then because it's a space ninja game I'm flying around and just so happened to pass by a lantern, or looked in the wrong direction so that my body blocks, my tragedy has now done 0 damage; I have wasted energy. I am now frustrated that the enemies did not die after all of my setup. Removing LoS from tragedy makes all the difference in the gameplay feel of this frame. Dark verse LoS properly limits your ability to spam nuke enemies. The combination of LoS on dark verse and no LoS on tragedy makes for an active, interactive gameplay that feels fluid and responsive with next to 0 issues ever failing to do your combo. I am now incentivised to not use tragedy a whopping 1/4 of his kit is now frustrating to use. It's bad design on what was a near perfect frame release.

You clearly have not played octavia, mesa, or saryn, maybe even dante! you run 200+ strength builds on any of these frames, and the moment you chuck octavia's mallet out into the group of enemies they're dead. You cast one spore from sayrn and you can walk away from the game and watch netflix. You press mesa's 4 and enemies vanish before your eyes.

Even with archon cast speed increases, dante has to cast 3 abilities, (and often times much more than that on SP, possibly 3-5 dark verse on a nearly 300% ability strength build, to kill everything.

It sounds more like we need to buff other frames to bring them in line with how fun dante was to play, not nerf bat things 4 days out of the gate.

[vFlitz]

4 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

Gonna blow your mind... DARK VERSE HAS ALWAYS HAD AN LOS CHECK, and Tragedys main source of DoTs is from Dark verse.

Now get this... Tragedy having an LoS does literally nothing to hamper it. Infact, it keeps in inline with all the rest of Dantes abilities. NOT ONLY THAT, Tragedy inadvertendly always had an LOS check because of Dark verse.

Stop crying about it and actually play the game.

You're literally looking at what makes LoS on Tragedy particularly annoying and somehow drawing the opposite conclusion.

Yes, Dark Verse has always had LoS. Yes, this means Tragedy's real damage output always has been only possible on enemies that can be directly interacted with. But that doesn't mean putting another check on Tragedy makes no difference. LoS checks aren't perfect, they miss things they shouldn't, and because there's at least a couple seconds between ability casts, the two checks may come up with different results.

Dante is now in a unique situation of double dipping on this inconsistency, no other frame I can think of has to deal with that even if they do have LoS-based abilities.

[tucker_d_dawg]

4 hours ago, LordOfKenpo said:

It changes the way the frame plays as you can't prime multiple groups of enemies and then detonate them all at once with tragedy. The play is now more brainless

This seems counterintuitive to me: 
being able to kill/prime enemies through walls that you can't see, never have to position yourself to see, never have to coordinate how to best get them in a spot somehow requires MORE strategy than getting the max in a line of sight you can?

fun is subjective so i'm not going to argue if your play is more or less fun to you, but strategically, LoS requires more brains, not less. And that is true not just of Dante but of any frame that requires LoS.

 

[LordOfKenpo]

Just now, tucker_d_dawg said:

This seems counterintuitive to me: 
being able to kill/prime enemies through walls that you can't see, never have to position yourself to see, never have to coordinate how to best get them in a spot somehow requires MORE strategy than getting the max in a line of sight you can?

fun is subjective so i'm not going to argue if your play is more or less fun to you, but strategically, LoS requires more brains, not less. And that is true not just of Dante but of any frame that requires LoS.

 

you could never prime through walls since Dark Verse was LoS. It is just the detonation on previously primed targets that worked on them. If I spent resources to prime the targets, it feels really bad to lose that because the enemy walked around a wall or turned a corner.

[OnestarMike]

2 minutes ago, tucker_d_dawg said:

This seems counterintuitive to me: 
being able to kill/prime enemies through walls that you can't see, never have to position yourself to see, never have to coordinate how to best get them in a spot somehow requires MORE strategy than getting the max in a line of sight you can?

fun is subjective so i'm not going to argue if your play is more or less fun to you, but strategically, LoS requires more brains, not less. And that is true not just of Dante but of any frame that requires LoS.

 

You can't prime enemies through walls. Dark verse never had this ability to do so. It was supposed to be the limiting factor when it comes to tragedy. It is what encouraged mobile, tactical, active gameplay. LoS on tragedy is basically like summoning rocks everywhere for you to trip and mess up the detonation, wasting energy, and making the gameplay feel frustrating. With an ability being about 1/4 of his kit feeling really frustrating to use, it drags down the entire experience. It's clunky and honestly depressing when I go cast tragedy and I still see 50-100% of the enemies not die.

[JjYing21]

This game doesn't need LOS

[(PSN)Thanatos-Prime]

I've come upon a crux of this issue. Curse of being a design/developer leader. Community discuss with me here yall. 

Ok, so. We all know LoS is a PoS, it's inconsistent, clunky, hampers fun, parks game flow etc. This list goes on. And that's a fact. But I think I'll overreach and give DE ANOTHER potential fix. Coming from a table top game guy. 

See, in let's say miniatures games, d and d or Warhammer. We too use LoS to check if stuff can be done and how stuff resolves. BUT I've realized the failing of DE here. ORIGIN POINT. 

When we check LoS on the table we usually just sight the back of our mini and look out, if we can see the object or destination in line, your good. Any part of it. Your good. DE seems to be trying to apply this logic to a FAULTY ORIGIN POINT. I'll explain. We use the literal mini as the origin point, we say "alright he can see that" talking of the mini itself. In other words we use the mini as the Origin Point of the check. But DE seems to be saying "The player is the origin" that's very faulty logic. On the mini table that's called out, as it makes everything easier, you as the player can see a ton, the whole field, bad origin point, faulty in fact. It like looking from top down instead of mini eye level.  Top down you can realistically see EVERYTHING, but at table or mini level if you level out and look "downrange" you realize " Oh crud, there's a wall in the way and my target lines blocked" 

We have demonstrative evidence from players that DE has set the ORIGIN point of the check to be -Somehow- the over the shoulder camera, in other words they literally said to the game, "check LoS based on the camera view" this, incomprehensible decision has led to the shoddy LoS we now have, it's inconsistent due to the fact the games using the camera and fov as the origin point. If your camera is occluded, or the angle is off the check fails, it's reading frames themselves as " obstructions" and it would, the programs looking at the players camera and seeing the frames model so it's just following how they programmed it. It's seeing a "obstruction" and denying the check. 

The Crux is, I believe intuitively we as gamers are auto correcting to how it SHOULD WORK. See I asked my clan and maybe yall can give me more data. Internally, when we -my clan and those I asked mind- play, our brains are doing simple logic. "I'm the frame. My frame could likely see them, they can see my frame, LoS achieved" we all do it, wondering how that fire eximus hit us or why we didn't see him. That's DEs LoS logic, the eximus can see and be seen by the camera, maybe not necessarily us, so it passes the LoS check. All the while we are operating on table top logic, because it's smoother. 

My point comes to this. If DE wants LoS they need to alter the ORIGIN POINT to be the frame itself. Not the camera, the frame. Then it works as our minds feel it should. Round a corner enemies you didn't see em, they didn't see you, no more "hitting through walls" and it solves the fov cheeses since it makes the game check from your frames current location NOT THE CAMERA ANGLE. So if your blitzing about it should operate in theory as we expect, hitting every enemy we feel it should because it's checking from our frame to the enemy. 

They can use the more lienent check, the "render" one if they want don't matter. What matters is the origin point of the check. I believe this is called Raycast correct, a quick line check. If we set the origin point to our frames model and simply tell the game, "OK Raycast from center point - our frames model-  outward for check it should, if cited right reliably tag every enemy our brains feel it should. If they are obscured by walls or objects then no pass, if we zip around into the air or are continually moving the rays should, in theory adjust to keep the center constant. 

Essentially like a sonar I suppose, every time the code calls for a new "check" the game would do a quick "render raycast" ping back and carry on. 

Would this not maybe alleviate much of the inconsistencies? Working like this on simple logics, if we bullet jump into a stairwell, we expect to hit everything because our warframe occupies space, it's being "seen" and has "sight" but often now its a wasted ability because some silly geometry or wall occludes the third person camera -the origin point of the chec- causing failure. 

Dunno maybe I'm crazy, but the logic made enough design sense to our coders I felt I should spur discussion. 

[BionicFreak]

On 2024-04-11 at 12:22 AM, JjYing21 said:

This game doesn't need LOS

+1