I genuinely cannot understand Deep Archimedia sympathizers

[Lord_Drod]

It's a f2p game.  I'm sure they make more money off RNG formats while also creating more difficulty without having to create and balance a complex and demanding mode.  It's a win win.

The challenge wouldn't be as prevalent if you can pick optimal choices for mirror defense or disruption.

The core gameplay has to provide this and rng will mask or suppress a lot of the setups that trivialize the missions.

I'm always hopeful for new game modes even if they personally aren't what I'm looking for.  

While I'd like freedom to run my choice of gear as well I don't think it would enhance my experience of the mode too much.

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, sXeth said:

Simple flaw in this argument, nothing about the randomization actually serves to prevent that. Whatever difficulty it may impose or not is not by any actual design.

Consistently anyways. There’s essentially an equal (or greater even) possibility that you get inane overpowered nonsense as you get whatever you happen to consider the bottom tier or completely unowned options.

Since the randomization allows for this, the argument that it produces difficulty is inherently faulty. Even more so considering Ted from recruiting chat can just hop in with you and use whatever the F he wants (presumably because otherwise there’d a whole separate level of toxicity issues if one person could derail the squad score.

It doesn't prevent it, but it does reduce it. If you're only overpowered 50% of the time that's still less than being overpowered 100% of the time. It is faulty, and that's because it's a bandaid. Actually balancing the game is hard work and doesn't immediately make money like selling the new overpowered shiny and you have to deal with all the Gamer Rage™. Bandaids like balancing via RNG (Rivens, old Tau drop rates, Duviri, this) or the various damage mitigation mechanics (Attenuation, adaptation, immunity, overguard, etc.) let DE throw a sheet over the whole thing in one go, and while it doesn't address the underlying rot it's still more effective than doing nothing.

[shadownite901]

As an MR30 player who just unlocked Archemedia... yeah. Can't get Deep Archemedia open because I don't have dante built because of the LoS nerf, my Mesa is okay but not great, and I don't own Sevagoth, then after that I either don't own or don't have builds on any of the weapons that could possibly kill one of those Necramechs. So since I'm not allowed to use the stuff that I spent thousands of hours grinding out and putting forma in, spent literally hundreds of thousands of plat on rivens for (collectively, ofc, but some of the rivens are easily worth 5 digits in plat) and was fully prepared to bring into harder content, I'm just SoL. This is absurd!

I built my arsenal to handle this, and it does, but since I can't use what I built, I lose? Thanks DE. Very interactive content. "Endgame" almost as bad as Destiny...

The rng ruined Duviri for me. I was really excited for this. Was. 

[AnxiousChammy]

9 minutes ago, shadownite901 said:

I don't have dante built because of the LoS nerf, my Mesa is okay but not great,

LoS the frame still puts in work. I haven’t touched my build in terms of changing it since the LoS change still puts in high numbers. Just build him instead of missing out for nothing. Your mesa is okay as you put it, might as well look up builds or build her to be great or close…her alone lets you go about without having to worry about the weapons you are talking about that can’t kill anything. Missing out when the first two frames you mentioned can easily propel you further. Sad to hear 

[shadownite901]

2 hours ago, AnxiousChammy said:

LoS the frame still puts in work. I haven’t touched my build in terms of changing it since the LoS change still puts in high numbers. Just build him instead of missing out for nothing. Your mesa is okay as you put it, might as well look up builds or build her to be great or close…her alone lets you go about without having to worry about the weapons you are talking about that can’t kill anything. Missing out when the first two frames you mentioned can easily propel you further. Sad to hear 

You're right. It's simply annoying. My typical playstyle heavily prefers either supports (which Dante is kinda, so that isn't terrible) or else weapons platforms, which Mesa is not really, unless you're counting Peacemakers which aren't the weapons I want to use so she doesn't count in this instance. 

Also, I don't approve of the inability to get any resources back when better versions of items come back, so I'm typically averse to building things that I know will get better versions in the future, such as non-prime warframes. Dante is an exception to the rule here as I thought his kit was really cool, and he uses a low-forma build, so it's fine. That said, on principle I don't support the LoS nerf and I'm really inclined to just feed him for completion (that's where my Sevagoth went, btw). I'm not because my gf really likes him and we play him together, but I don't care to invest more consumable resources into something that will be deleted permanently with no return in 3 years, especially after having played this game for double that many years and seen so many other things go down the drain. For example, I scrapped my 8 forma, exilused Akarius today. I built those on release. Guess how many forma I got back? And the plat from the forma bundles I almost certainly purchased to do that? Yeah, not really sold on building things that just vanish anymore...

And all of that is aside from the point completely, which is that while I could quite easily sub roar instead of dispensary onto my Mesa and get a friend to play any number of buffing frames (and that's about all of the changes I think I'd really have to make, too), it simply isn't fun to be told that the only way to progress is to play frames that I know aren't fun and use literally not any weapons because they don't work well enough on the mechs, especially since I don't have a frame to buff them as I would in normal play. If I could only play Gauss, the Gotva Prime would be fine. On the other hand, I'll eat any frame restriction if I can just lug my Boar along.

 

I'm a support player at heart. I have support builds on every frame I can, from obvious ones, such as Trinity, my main, to less obvious ones, like Ember and Garuda. I'm no stranger to adapting builds and beating things. I also really really don't like that I'm forced to tunnel only the most efficient Mesa build or fail. I don't get to choose to use one of any number of other builds that are custom made specifically for content like this, or pull out a weapon that can simply handle those enemies, no buffs required. It's playable and beatable, sure. It's frustrating because I've spent thousands of hours perfecting an subset of this massive arsenal to have it invalidated by this silly facade of difficulty, and it misses the point of video games - fun. 

[Kainosh]

On 2024-04-07 at 6:07 AM, ChaoticOrderly said:

The concept of difficulty in Warframe has now been warped to owning everything in the game, understanding how it all works, and having functional build for every single item in the game.

OR you can communicate and help each other (friends, clanmates and such).  

Yesterday, I equipped unpolarized Korinth and Magnus....equipped my barely optimized Garuda and did a few PUG runs.    Unlocked Elite in 3rd try.

 

And it didn't feel like I was useless.   Garuda's instakill on 40% and bleed proc chance was useful, and i even got some blood bomb nukes in.    And during disruption i killed lots with my Necramech.  

 

Point is....its a teamwork mode.  And you can help your team even with a crappy build, thanx to Operators, Necramechs and many other things you can do. Even just spreading status effects without killing is a huge boon.  

[shadownite901]

11 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Point is....its a teamwork mode.  And you can help your team even with a crappy build, thanx to Operators, Necramechs and many other things you can do. Even just spreading status effects without killing is a huge boon.  

 

While I appreciate the option to not do the challenges and help my allies succeed, that's not what teamwork is. That's called carrying.

 

And I understand that you can put in work with some of the options available sometimes, but also sometimes you have to really stretch a lot farther with frames that have less options in their kits. Imagine if the only frame you owned of the 3 options was Ash, and it was a week with the -duration modifier. You can play Shuriken Shred to be sure, but that only goes so far, and there's really only so far you can push the "I contributed" logic before it's basically just a carry. 

 

Teamwork, by comparison, would insinuate that we are helping each other to a large extent, and while this isn't always necessary, I think in the context of endgame content in a looter shooter it's appropriate to say to some extent we are also both getting rewarded (as in a carry, only one player gets rewarded. The other is just there to help or carry).

 

When I play all challenges and my buddy plays Revenant Torid and clears everything for me, it's hardly a team game where we both help each other and both get rewarded. It's much much more like he makes sure I win and I get rewarded. Then we run it back the other direction. This doesn't make the randomization add challenge, it simply makes the randomization force us to act like mr8 players clearing sorties for the first time. Sometimes you get to feel like that mr8 player who coincidently did some things okay on the way there, or happened to find the right mission type, and you get to say "I contributed!!!" and feel all cool, because you know you never would've won on your own but at least you did something. Other times you get to feel like that guy who is rocking full sprint speed mods on his volt and full ammo max/mag cap/ips mods on his tigris. Those times certainly aren't fun.

 

Now, to be fair, this isn't every week. I'm sure the boar will pop up sometimes, as will Trinity and Garuda and Gauss (frames that I frequent), but the fact that it happens at all this late into the game when so many players have put so much time and effort into not having to feel like that again.... It's a shame.

[Drachnyn]

I dont think pointing at the possibility of carry 4 carry runs makes a lot of sense. You can just choose to not do it. Matchmaking doesnt really lend itself to that kind of stuff since you can just easily get grouped with 3 other people looking for a carry. Meanwhile in recruitment chat you can clearly say what kind of run you are looking for.

[sinamanthediva]

On 2024-04-10 at 5:39 AM, LemuriaLight said:

I'm all for more challenging content, but as it stands right now, EDA is just a lottery whether you get good gear or not (without considering leeching)

This week's mission just shows the crux of the problem, defense and assassinate are really just DPS checks and if you have bad RNG loadouts the missions can become impossible

If DE wants to encourage teamwork this is absolutely the wrong way to go, just go look at any MMO raids, MOBAs or even how people used to do Eidolons, you need to let people define roles and work out team comps, and make the enemies actually require teamwork to deal with (like drawing aggro, hitting multiple places at the same time, one party to cc and one party to DPS etc.)

you randomize everyone's equipment then of course they are going to min-max themselves because how can they synergize with their teammates who have random equipment?

Never take away player agency

 

On the subject of Teamwork this mission hardly promotes Teamwork due to the fact Rewards are Individualized and not equally shared amongst Team-mates.  It is basically promoting sort of Teamwork but which only rewards you with a unique random prize won from pure RNG.    I had a bad time choking down the Tau Shard Wheel of Shame from the Archon Hunts, but back then it was the only option to get a Tau, so I was forced to grin and bear it.  Now the bad design choice has spread like the plague and infected yet another game mode and stripped the concept of Teamwork out from a mission that is most certainly best suited for proper Teamwork.  It's every man(woman/they/them/etc.) for himself/their-self if we are not sharing a common reward. How nice it is for the Team-mate that got carried to earn a Tau Shard while every other Team member was awarded a Melee Adapter!  Super fun right!  Why is it that we all are not earning the same Reward like every single mission in the game?  Exceptions being Archon Hunts and Fissures (which by their very definition are not Team based to begin with since we all bring our own personal Relic choice.)  It just one more thing to add to the dislike of Archmed. Missions.  Fake difficulty by forcing subpar weapons and mechanics upon us is not my idea of difficulty but more of an annoyance to endure.  It's definitely not a preferred ideal method of making a game challenging but apparently it's good enough for some players.   The question being is there enough people not liking the mode to convince DE to make improvements that don't rely on RNG gimmicks and overburden-some negatives to be a "challenge." Only time and enough voices will tell.  There is nothing wrong with wanting DE to make the game better without relying on cheap parlor tricks and lazy negatives to achieve a mission challenge. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[Joylesstuna]

On 2024-04-23 at 12:14 AM, sinamanthediva said:

On the subject of Teamwork this mission hardly promotes Teamwork due to the fact Rewards are Individualized and not equally shared amongst Team-mates.  It is basically promoting sort of Teamwork but which only rewards you with a unique random prize won from pure RNG.    I had a bad time choking down the Tau Shard Wheel of Shame from the Archon Hunts, but back then it was the only option to get a Tau, so I was forced to grin and bear it.  Now the bad design choice has spread like the plague and infected yet another game mode and stripped the concept of Teamwork out from a mission that is most certainly best suited for proper Teamwork.  It's every man(woman/they/them/etc.) for himself/their-self if we are not sharing a common reward. How nice it is for the Team-mate that got carried to earn a Tau Shard while every other Team member was awarded a Melee Adapter!  Super fun right!  Why is it that we all are not earning the same Reward like every single mission in the game?  Exceptions being Archon Hunts and Fissures (which by their very definition are not Team based to begin with since we all bring our own personal Relic choice.)  It just one more thing to add to the dislike of Archmed. Missions.  Fake difficulty by forcing subpar weapons and mechanics upon us is not my idea of difficulty but more of an annoyance to endure.  It's definitely not a preferred ideal method of making a game challenging but apparently it's good enough for some players.   The question being is there enough people not liking the mode to convince DE to make improvements that don't rely on RNG gimmicks and overburden-some negatives to be a "challenge." Only time and enough voices will tell.  There is nothing wrong with wanting DE to make the game better without relying on cheap parlor tricks and lazy negatives to achieve a mission challenge. 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

Beautifully said.

[Karyst]

On 2024-04-22 at 9:28 AM, shadownite901 said:

As an MR30 player who just unlocked Archemedia... yeah. Can't get Deep Archemedia open because I don't have dante built because of the LoS nerf, my Mesa is okay but not great, and I don't own Sevagoth, then after that I either don't own or don't have builds on any of the weapons that could possibly kill one of those Necramechs. So since I'm not allowed to use the stuff that I spent thousands of hours grinding out and putting forma in, spent literally hundreds of thousands of plat on rivens for (collectively, ofc, but some of the rivens are easily worth 5 digits in plat) and was fully prepared to bring into harder content, I'm just SoL. This is absurd!

I built my arsenal to handle this, and it does, but since I can't use what I built, I lose? Thanks DE. Very interactive content. "Endgame" almost as bad as Destiny...

The rng ruined Duviri for me. I was really excited for this. Was. 

You got me at Can't get Deep Archemedia open because I don't have dante built because of the LoS nerf, my Mesa is okay but not great. My dusty nezha that I mained two years ago can do this week's EDA yet your grinded gear can't? What gives?

[Karyst]

2 minutes ago, Karyst said:

You got me at Can't get Deep Archemedia open because I don't have dante built because of the LoS nerf, my Mesa is okay but not great. My dusty nezha that I mained two years ago can do this week's EDA yet your grinded gear can't? What gives?

I wonder, if I drop 5digit in plat on a riven, but mod it wrong and don't shoot in the weakpoints in DA that enemies have and fail DA, does that mean that DE is active tripping me of? And on the other hand If I use gear that I have correctly modded, even without riven, learn the enemies, their attacks and weaknesses and understand the objective, the handicaps that are present in the current weeks DA and complete DA, does that mean that DE made DA too easy and is basically acting as charity in giving me 'free' arcanes and shards? Will you people ever consider a balanced approach?

[mihaejl]

just say youre a meta slave who cannot compute that almost every weapon is moddable so it does DA and the only people who actually need the op minmax build are the people hitting lvl cap

 

and to add to the point of "Endgame should be defined by having the player push its arsenal to it's limit" when we all know the same 4 frames that push level cap xd

if it was aimed for that youd have octavia ash saryn there.

 

everything under a lvl 1000 is doable with any random loadout and under 5 forma 

 

argue with your wall 

[Traumtulpe]

4 minutes ago, mihaejl said:

everything under a lvl 1000 is doable with any random loadout and under 5 forma

You can do level 9k with an unmodded warframe. Irregardless of that fact, I have *no* interest at all in playing Limbo. At all. Ever. I don't want to play Limbo. I hate playing Limbo. His abilities are trash and best not used at all - as they are actively detrimental to his team.

Yes I can do DA with Limbo. I did it solo in fact, with all modifiers, because I didn't want to bother other people and force them to suffer Limbo's irritating abilities that are basically griefing others incidentally.

I can also equip two garbage weapons that deal no damage and are bugged to be basically nonfunctional, and that DE wil never fix because they don't give a flip.

But for DE to tell me: "This week you're playing Limbo, bud, and you're going to equip this bugged trash that we can't be bothered to fix for 3 years and counting. *Or* you're not playing at all. Your choice." is just a retard move. It makes no sense, it does no good.

Since DE isn't going to fix their flip, they should stop forcing people to use said flip. Don't fix bugged items? Don't force people to use the bugged crap. How is this not obvious?

[Shodian87]

43 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

But for DE to tell me: "This week you're playing Limbo, bud

False, they choose three different frames. Not just one.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, Shodian87 said:

False, they choose three different frames. Not just one.

2 of which I do not currently own (Helminth ate both).

[sinamanthediva]

8 hours ago, Joylesstuna said:

Beautifully said.

Thank you, that means a lot!  It's hard to get people to listen to what you have to say, let alone agree with it. I find it fascinating to read such a wide variety of opinions, all about the same topic.  Sometimes it's confusing to me to try and understand why people think the way they do, but do appreciate the time people have invested in this game.  Because at the end of the day, we all are here in the forums because we do care about Warframe and only want it to succeed.  Getting people to agree with the How is never an easy task, as people are very stubborn sometimes, me included, with changing their opinions about what is best for the game.  We can only hope that our input will steer DE in the best direction possible so we can continue playing a game that we all enjoy!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

Edited April 24 by sinamanthediva
spelling and grammar corrections

[MaxTunnerX]

As long as there are masochistic players that want difficulty for any cost and as long as RNG stays the easiest and most feasible way to prolong the game and promote buying things for plat, these modes are here to stay. I still hope for these things to be optional one day, but thats probably what neither the players "omg why does someone get the same reward as me when I had it on hard mode and they didnt", neither the devs (downright cutting down profits) will let happen.

Edited April 24 by MaxTunnerX

[MaxTunnerX]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I have *no* interest at all in playing Limbo. At all. Ever. I don't want to play Limbo. I hate playing Limbo. His abilities are trash and best not used at all - as they are actively detrimental to his team.

ROFLMAO, this is the best. Couldnt agree more. As much as I like limbo in an RP way, functionally hes just a troll/griefer at best and a liability otherwise.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, MaxTunnerX said:

functionally hes just a troll/griefer at best and a liability otherwise

"I'm not *griefing* people, I just play Limbo the way his abilities work. Of course I'm going to banish every single enemy in the exterminate mission without killing them. Of course I'm first at every mobile defense target and dutifully put down my 2 minutes long lasting Cataclysm to protect it, not my fault that nobody can attack anything or put in the data mass!"

[Agall]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

"I'm not *griefing* people, I just play Limbo the way his abilities work. Of course I'm going to banish every single enemy in the exterminate mission without killing them. Of course I'm first at every mobile defense target and dutifully put down my 2 minutes long lasting Cataclysm to protect it, not my fault that nobody can attack anything or put in the data mass!"

There's a reason you can roll out of Limbo's stuff. Yeah it can be annoying when I have to stop and think about why an enemy isn't dying, but once I know its because there's a Limbo on the team, its an easy fix.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Agall said:

There's a reason you can roll out of Limbo's stuff. Yeah it can be annoying when I have to stop and think about why an enemy isn't dying, but once I know its because there's a Limbo on the team, its an easy fix.

And now you roll out of your stupor and think long and hard about how rolling fixes *enemies* being in the rift.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

30 minutes ago, MaxTunnerX said:

As long as there are masochistic players that want difficulty for any cost and as long as RNG stays the easiest and most feasible way to prolong the game and promote buying things for plat, these modes are here to stay. I still hope for these things to be optional one day, but thats probably what neither the players "omg why does someone get the same reward as me when I had it on hard mode and they didnt", neither the devs (downright cutting down profits) will let happen.

Yeah, the sad truth, I'm afraid. But that is EXACTLY why we have to speak up and against this. The louder the backlash and the more people supporting changes - the higher the chances of said changes to happen. At least with the developer side of things - sometimes the happiness of the player base and reputation of being "devs who listen to the community" are more important than some miniscule income bonus.

At the same time tho... We can't do anything about the "elitist" types in the community, sadly. They'll always exist, always put themselves above all others, talk down on "plebs" below them and also try to create fake backlash such as you described - the whole "omg why does someone get the same reward as me when I had it on hard mode and they didnt" thing.

Edited April 24 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_
Typo

[Agall]

19 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

And now you roll out of your stupor and think long and hard about how rolling fixes *enemies* being in the rift.

I play the game to bathe in the blood of my enemies, Limbo makes things way too dry. So yes, rolling fixes the problem Limbo creates.

At no point have I ever thought, "Wow, I'd love to be unable to kill anything right now" in the 10.5 years I've played this game.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Agall said:

I play the game to bathe in the blood of my enemies, Limbo makes things way too dry. So yes, rolling fixes the problem Limbo creates.

I think you might need to do some more rolling, but you're getting there. Hint: If an enemy is banished, and you roll because you think you're banished and that's why you can't shoot it, you *still* can't shoot it.

And if you carry a data mass and want to put it into a mobile defense target that's inside of a Cataclysm, rolling unfortunately also doesn't end Cataclysm.