The next reworked frame

[Venus-Venera]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb (PSN)NinjaBlade626:

Upset much? why even get upset at the end of the day the aug is in the game and my idea of shuriken aug more likely won`t happen, get over yourself.

In my opinion it is used too rarely. But if it does, then it's a very first-class skill with aug and people don't want to miss it. So I can understand the negative emotions very well.

I especially loved the skill with aug at Khora. She then has a very good 4-skill set with which I can really play any content. armor strip is damn useful later-

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

2 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

my opinion it is used too rarely. But if it does, then it's a very first-class skill with aug and people don't want to miss it. So I can understand the negative emotions very well.

Don’t need you putting words in my mouth for me thank you, the main point of the discussion was ninja said shuriken was useless, my point was in team play it can be useful there was no “negative emotion” it was simply a difference of opinion ninja got tilted end of.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Keep seeing the same Frames pop up on posts here but very little of them are including details. So:

Chroma: Has 2 extremely powerful powers. Spectral Scream is barely useful though. He should be pushed to the back of the list. Have Spectral either changed or replaced and have Effigy buffed. Minimal changes.

Nyx: Thought this one was a joke until I saw it pop up 2 or 3 more times. Earlier I came out of missions in Entrati Labs where I used Mind Control (with augment) on enemy Nechramechs that spawned, so I had 1000%+ ally helping me wipe out rooms. Psychic Bolts could do with a very slight tweak but not much. Chaos can be extremely useful when used correctly. And Absorb just needs to be adjusted so attacks don't melt your energy in seconds and given the ability to move like the augment. Side by side with Chroma at the back of the list. Minimal changes again.

Equinox: This is a strange one because Equinox can pretty easily still be powerful, she's just confusing. Equinox just needs a streamline, not a rework. Realistically it'd be better if, like Limbo, Equinox's dodge changed her between Day and Night. This frees up a slot for a power. Considering she still might just be the most powerful nuke frame when used right, the new power would be better off being a defensive one. Streamline the other 3 powers so that each "phase" just focuses on one very specific and clear thing. Also keeping the back of the lists bench warm. Very minimal changes needed.

Atlas: Good idea, bad implementation. The frame either needs some serious buffs, or a complete overhaul. Given the Inconsistency of AI Allies, the Rumblers just gotta go. Its one of those ideas that looked better on paper than it turned out. The rest of his kit is middling -> awful. Atlas gets the number 2 spot for a rework.

Banshee: Sonic Boom and Sound Quake need buffs, the other 2 are really, really powerful, even now. Im sorry to say that if youre not seeing Silence and Sonar being useful, they arent being used correctly. With Banshee though she doesn't need powers changed or switched out, just buffed. She'd be middle of the list simply because she'd be a few days of math and a hotfix to implement. Get her out of the way in between.

Trinity: Deserving of the number 3 slot. Trinity doesn't have "bad" powers, she has "extremely outdated" powers. The game over the years has continued to move towards a non-stop always running and jumping from room to room kinetic theme. And that's why Trinity got left behind. 2 of her powers literally ask you to stop moving and stand near a hovering enemy who now gives out energy/health. And the recent Shield Gating / Mod improvements have made her Blessing power (almost) redundant. Plus the Helminth has a version of Blessing preinstalled in it. Link could stay but with some improvements. But at this stage she needs 3 brand new powers. So number 3 she goes.

Vauban: Genuinely shouldn't even be in here. I'm not entirely sure why he's mentioned at all. 3 good powers without Augments, and one with the Augment. Removed from the list entirely.

Valkyr: A difficult one. She can be extremely powerful and useful, but that's all because of one power and everyone using the same setup. She has a bit of a "Revenant problem", where 2 of her other powers are actually kinda good, but Hysteria just makes everything else she has redundant. So it's not so much she has bad powers, it's that she has one power that's actually too powerful and overshadows everything else. So Hysteria would need a change, maybe with a cooldown timer. You could almost implement the "Lavos system" into her, so when Hysteria is on cooldown, using her other powers properly will reduce the cooldown. She'd take a place in the middle alongside Banshee, possibly before her.

And then there's Caliban...

Let's keep this short. His 1 is useless, and arguably the worst power in the entire game. His 2 is just awful, a poor man's excuse for Rhino's stomp but without the slow effect, 99.9% useless. His 3 has got to be this games Gold Medal Winner for "Good idea, Bad Implementation". The shields they give are bad, especially as they wander off and stop giving them. Their attacks are bad. Their aggro is bad. They genuinely contribute nothing except an extra 2 seconds of shields before you die. And his 4th, Jesus... we had Pillage and Fire Blast and all these other Armour/Shield strip powers that hit in a 360° angle for years, and here's a cool looking beam that only strips defences as long as enemies run over a small area....

Caliban takes the top spot. There are definitely older frames who need help. There are certainly frames with powers that are just frustrating because they could be good but aren't. But Caliban is the definition of tragic. You could buff all his powers 2x or 3x and he'd still be just as bad. And his fix could be sooo simple;

Give his 1 Mirages Prism above his head while he's spinning and now he's using that annoying Battalyst attack that always catches you off guard. Lore accurate. Change his 2 to be the Armour/Shield strip, same animation, same cool Sentient sound. Change the Sentients he calls with his 3 to be Ranged Attack Sentients that always stay within 10m of you. And his 4th can then just be a really cool, really damaging beam now that his 2 takes care of defences. Extra damage against enemies already attacked by the Ranged Sentients.

Right now he's genuinely the only Warframe with 0 good powers. So my list is:

1. Caliban

2. Atlas

3. Trinity

4. Valkyr

5. 3 days of work on Banshee

6. Chroma

7. Nyx

8. Equinox

[Raarsi]

3 hours ago, MaxTunnerX said:

Lmao, I like how you basically shame "listening to community".

That was more or less how Pablo put it since when the Inaros rework was first brought up in a devstream, he basically went on record saying that he didn't think it was that necessary and that it was only being done because of how much demand there was for it.

Meanwhile, not only was I one of those people meme'ing about how godawful Inaros was, I'm pretty sure I even made a thread called "Yet Another Inaros Rework" or something like that (I'd check, but I can't be bothered).

3 hours ago, MaxTunnerX said:

Or do you want the game driven by the vocal minority instead? I dont (and Im part of it).

As a fellow moronic forum regular, I wholly agree.  It's why I still point and laugh at boomers still whining about losing their precious Void Dash.

Anyway, now that nearly a month has passed since I brought up anything in this thread and I've had plenty of time to go through some frames I haven't touched in some time, I'm still not completely sure who would be next.  Definitely some contenders (I'm personally keeping an eye on Atlas), but I think the next big request should be instead for transparency on how DE tests frames and showing what parameters are used to declare a frame "playable" in most or all current content.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PSN)FrDiabloFr:

Don’t need you putting words in my mouth

Hm. how did you come up with that....? I'm not your mom and I don't want to be...
Actually, you should have started the whole thing like an adult. because it is disgusting and absolutely abnormal...... please correct your behavior urgently!

I can't even think normally when I read this.... make sure that people read it too, for whom the things you write are absolutely not okay...

[Pakaku]

Not in favour of any "reworks" if it's the same Pablo one-trick pony that squanders the majority of the frame's gameplay identity

[(PSN)Sentiel]

7 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Not in favour of any "reworks" if it's the same Pablo one-trick pony that squanders the majority of the frame's gameplay identity

This is why I would rather prefer some minor tweaks instead of reworks.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

16 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

Hm. how did you come up with that....? I'm not your mom and I don't want to be...
Actually, you should have started the whole thing like an adult. because it is disgusting and absolutely abnormal...... please correct your behavior urgently!

I can't even think normally when I read this.... make sure that people read it too, for whom the things you write are absolutely not okay...

 

3 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

So I can understand the negative emotions very well.

You said about negative emotions, there was none, between me and ninja our opinions differed you then piped up saying negative emotions lol then sent that unhinged, creepy response, get well soon amigo:)

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Sentiel:

This is why I would rather prefer some minor tweaks instead of reworks.

The main thing is that the whole thing is done for honorable players. Because at the moment, no matter how you spin it, it's all about real life cash milking.
because “tweaks” or “reworks” can bring good things. at least in theory...

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Going with either Banshee or Nyx

Their play rates are the lowest in the game, because both their 4th abilities cement you in place (before augment mods).

In a game all about mobility, asking you to sit still goes against the grain.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Magician_NG:

Going with either Banshee or Nyx

Their play rates are the lowest in the game, because both their 4th abilities cement you in place (before augment mods).

In a game all about mobility, asking you to sit still goes against the grain.

Unfortunately, the warframes are too old, where most of them have a lot of formas in them. therefore it will hardly happen.

[Aruquae]

4 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

Unfortunately, the warframes are too old, where most of them have a lot of formas in them. therefore it will hardly happen.

Hydroid

That is it, that’s my counter argument 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Aruquae:

Hydroid

That is it, that’s my counter argument 

could be real. because warframe is unpopular? At least that's how I see it all. Now the question is, in which direction should it go?
because I wouldn't rely on devs. Ignorance and loss of connection to reality is a well-known diagnosis

 

In any case, I would like to see this warframe in publics more often. At the moment it's rarely the case... unless it's about sp circuit :-)

[(PSN)Sentiel]

48 minutes ago, (PSN)Magician_NG said:

Going with either Banshee or Nyx

Their play rates are the lowest in the game, because both their 4th abilities cement you in place (before augment mods).

In a game all about mobility, asking you to sit still goes against the grain.

Can you elaborate on Banshee please? I'll agree her 4 is horrible, but the rest of her kit is solid and she's a queen of Disruption for me.

[Aruquae]

22 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

could be real. because warframe is unpopular? At least that's how I see it all. Now the question is, in which direction should it go?
because I wouldn't rely on devs. Ignorance and loss of connection to reality is a well-known diagnosis

True, and yea that’s what I was getting at. His usage wasn’t too low only because he had his niche as a farmer. It ain’t much I guess, but it was honest work. Was still low, and that was his only use… an augment. 
As for relying on the devs, you’re right. Hydroid himself took like… what a decade ago? And they only reworked him about a half a year ago now right? 
Maybe someday we’ll get an augment that fixes all of their problems, and if the devs are feeling generous… a full rework in a few centuries. 

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Can you elaborate on Banshee please? I'll agree her 4 is horrible, but the rest of her kit is solid and she's a queen of Disruption for me.

I believe both of their problems mostly stem from the fact that CC is slowly becoming more and more irrelevant, and these frames are known for their great CC. 
Banshee’s third for one, it’s good for the initial stun, but when it’s not paired with gloom… it’s quite short. It’s enough, yes, but then you balance it with range. Her weak points are buggy as hell, sometimes I hit the weak points with a SNIPER, AND IT DOESN’T DO ANYTHING. 
Nyx, great for CC. Her fourth is great if you don’t want energy. And like I said… CC becoming more and more irrelevant (yes yes, my own bias opinion I know… it just seems DE hates CC…)

[Tiltskillet]

19 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Her weak points are buggy as hell, sometimes I hit the weak points with a SNIPER, AND IT DOESN’T DO ANYTHING. 

The highlighting is just a flag saying "Hit this general body part.   So the good news is you don't need to hit the exact spot.  Like on a humanoid, a Sonar weakspot includes the foot and the upper thigh and butt.  Even though the highlighted spot is basically just around the knee.

The bad news is it can be hard to tell which area is indicated, especially on the upper body, as arm position and angle can make it deceptive.  And non-humanoids can sometimes confuse things further.

It could definitely be better implemented.

Edited May 13 by Tiltskillet

[(PSN)Sentiel]

17 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I believe both of their problems mostly stem from the fact that CC is slowly becoming more and more irrelevant, and these frames are known for their great CC. 
Banshee’s third for one, it’s good for the initial stun, but when it’s not paired with gloom… it’s quite short. It’s enough, yes, but then you balance it with range. Her weak points are buggy as hell, sometimes I hit the weak points with a SNIPER, AND IT DOESN’T DO ANYTHING. 
Nyx, great for CC. Her fourth is great if you don’t want energy. And like I said… CC becoming more and more irrelevant (yes yes, my own bias opinion I know… it just seems DE hates CC…)

I don't disagree when it comes to CC but most of their problems can be fixed with tweaks instead of reworks.

If I go in depth on each of them...

 

Bashee

She needs a new passive. Having your weapons silenced doesn't provide any benefit since she also has Silence which does the same thing and spreads it to your team as well.

Sonic Boom by itself seems like doesn't do anything but it pushes enemies away. It works on Demo Units and even on the otherwise invulnerable enemies in EDA. The augment armor strips which is awesome imo.

Sonar by itself is an amazing ability but I'll agree it's unreliable. That's something that needs fixing more than reworking.

Silence seems initially lackluster since it stuns only once, but since it's a active effect, you can learn the range and stun enemies repeatedly. I would give it a visual border to make doing this easier. Also, it has a invaluable feature of shutting down enemy abilities.

Sound Quake needs a lot of love. It's a very bad ability even with the augment. Perhaps with the Orange Archon Shards that deal with Blast and if Blast gets rework it might be decent, but it's the one ability that should get looked at.

All in all, some minor tweaks and a closer look at her 4 and she's golden imo.

 

Nyx

Now, Nyx is in a much worse spot imo and she is my second most played Warframe.

Her passive is trash, especially since you cannot see it's effect, so it might not even work and you wouldn't know about it.

Mind Control isn't a bad ability but the Mind Controlled enemy AI needs tweaking. It needs to be more aggressive, move faster, attack faster, and be more accurate. Also, it would be nice to be able to press the ability again to refresh the duration and hold it to cancel it. While I can buff the enemy to over 9000% (meme intended but Incarnon weapons really can do it) it doesn't matter if they can't hit. The augment needs to be changed since 500% is easily lost in thousands. I would replace it with short range defence stripping AoE around the Mind Controlled enemy so it's more likely to kill something.

Psychic Bolts need better guidance. They often home in on the same enemy while ignoring others. Also, while the augment increases their number, it also introduces a unnecessary stun. If you hit an enemy with it and then cast Mind Control, which you'll generally do increase the damage dealt and thus increase the Mind Control damage buff, the controlled enemy will be kept in stunned animation until it runs out or you recast Psychic Bolts again.

Chaos needs to make the enemies ignore Nyx. As it is now they can still intentionally target her. Also, recasting it should stun the enemies again. It costs 75 energy so it should be more potent.

Absorb should allow you to use the Operator because just sitting idly is boring. The buff should have it's base duration at least doubled and it should work like Roar. You need to sacrifice a lot of time and energy to get decent numbers on the buff so the result should be worth it. The visuals should be toned down. Regardless of which version of Absorb I use, even with reduced ability effects and black energy, I can't see over the bubble and the particle effects.

 

As you can see, I don't believe they really need a rework, just some tweaks, even though some of them are more thorough but that's because their abilities have mechanical issues and are outdated.

[stormy505]

A. Frames that people think are fine but could use some love: 

Equinox: Could potentially see new life once armor and status gets changed cause she really, really hates ANY armor on enemies. Although, beyond that, both forms should have separate mod loadouts cause they want different things. A frame with 7 abilities and you use 2.

Ivara: MAN have exalted weapons aged not great. She's... ok. Cause invisibility is so inherently busted as a survivability tool it's really hard to balance stealth frames. But I'd love to exalted weapons as a whole to be looked at. (let us use ALL mods.)

B. Frames that have kits people are attached to but could us some love:

Loki: Yeah, idk... Same issue as ivara except he doesn't even lose invisibility on shooting and has full mobility. That's really, really hard to balance. Also, I get why FULL cc frames aren't going to be in the spotlight for a long time. It's hard to make a mode that wants CC, still has players actively killing stuff, and isn't absurdly difficult. Like really, really hard.

Nidus: People praise him... but I feel like they haven't touched him in SP circuit if they still see him as a good frames. Holy... health tanking when you're working with such low values I just meh... Like, saryn can health tank with gloom cause you NEED to one shot her to kill her. Nidus dies sooooo fast even with the full umbral, adaptation, tank arcanes etc setup.

These two are hard af to rework cause they're both pretty well liked despite not really being that good.

C. Frames that need tiny touch-ups:

Harrow: Like, an augment that let's him play nice with other people would be nice FOR A SUPPORT FRAME... His buffs are real good, SOLO survival SP his KPM is pretty good with good weapons. And he survives comfortably. His only issue is he hates playing with other people cause he needs to setup on alive enemies. And his squad won't let that happen. I don't really care if the augment gives like worse buffs but lets teammates contribute to his buffs. But let me play him with people and have an ok time.

Excal: Similar to ivara, exalted weapons need access to the shiny new toys IMO. Also, I feel like we should revert that change to minimum combo duration on some setups. That really, really hurt Excal and Baruuk. (Although barukk doesn't care THAT much, Excal does.)

D. Frames that could use a large overhaul:

Banshee:

Valkyr:

Oberon:

Limbo:

Nyx:

Chroma:

All of em need a lot of help... these 6 are also pretty hard cause a lot of their core kit just hasn't aged well so it'd be like creating an entirely new frame except with the constraints of trying to keep their theme intact.

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

She needs a new passive. Having your weapons silenced doesn't provide any benefit since she also has Silence which does the same thing and spreads it to your team as well.

Similar, and probably too much overlap especially with longer range Silence, but technically not the same.  Silence prevents targets within its radius from reacting to noise.  Silent weapons prevent the noise entirely, so don't care about range or alert level or targets that are immune to AI manipulation. 

8 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

I don't really care if the augment gives like worse buffs but lets teammates contribute to his buffs.

Warding Thurible and Tribunal both kind of do this to an extent.

Personally though I'd rather he had a little more independence from squad issues without using an augment.   e.g., a small amount of Thurible energy return from squad kills and better ability to charge up Retaliation on Covenant when squad CC is preventing him from taking damage.

[Waeleto]

My vote goes to banshee

[stormy505]

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Warding Thurible and Tribunal both kind of do this to an extent.

ooo I missed these. I'll experiment w them and see how they feel.

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Personally though I'd rather he had a little more independence from squad issues without using an augment.   e.g., a small amount of Thurible energy return from squad kills and better ability to charge up Retaliation on Covenant when squad CC is preventing him from taking damage.

Yeah I'd like for them to be more built into his kit, although he isn't super greedy on mod space, tribunal augment really feels like it should just be apart of the ability cause man without the qol in solo play vs group play is wild. I still haven't fully tested with it. But yeah would be nice.

[Tiltskillet]

25 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

although he isn't super greedy on mod space,

Hah, I think of him as being one of the tightest, maybe only behind Oberon, at least when it comes to using him "as designed".   He doesn't need efficiency particularly--although its tragic to have deeply negative efficiency when his energy generation fizzles out--but everything else is really useful.   And he's the only frame I still use Natural Talent on, because unlike it, cast speed shards don't speed up Thurible's channel.  Long story short, I never seriously use any of his augments. 

I should just replace Thurible with Nourish like a lot of people do, but I'm very fond of making his kit work.

 

[stormy505]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

And he's the only frame I still use Natural Talent on, because unlike it, cast speed shards don't speed up Thurible's channel. 

Bruh. I remember doing a bug report back in like, late 2022 for this. I really thought it would be fixed by now. Welp.

[stormy505]

12 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

And he's the only frame I still use Natural Talent on, because unlike it, cast speed shards don't speed up Thurible's channel.

Yeah that was my first thought on what to replace with shards. But I'm gonna remove constitution for the augment for some duration shards. At least in the co-op build. Although I really wish they would just fix this bug(?) so I could use some cast speed shards instead cause those are more universal for application.