Jade Shadows - Dev Workshop: Enemy Resistances and Status Rework (LIVE!)

[moondog548]

1 hour ago, Aphyllorchis said:

First of all: DE Please don't group multiple changes together espechially not ones as disruptive as the Armor and Faction damage ones. It makes it way more difficult to see the effect of each individual changes has on the game and ends up with essentialy three diffrent discussions in the same forum thread.

Second: I do like the proposed damage type changes in general, although im not sure about Magnetic getting a bonus against overguard, mainly because i dislike overguard on enemys as it weakens CC both from Abilitys as well as from status effects and therefore adversly makes pure damage (both in form of Crit weapons and high damage abilitys) more useful, i.e "i might not be able to disable you right now but i can still kill you" (Kullervo says Hi) wich seems counterproductive to me, as far as im concerned, we need the opposit effect so: " i might not be able to kill you right now but i can still disable you". This could potentially be achived by removing overguard and instead multiplying the health of units which used to have overguard by 4 or potentially even 8. (or give 600-1200 extra alloy armor). The fact that there are at least 13 Exeptions to overguard should also give you a hint that it isn't a great mechanic. Magnetic could instead get the effect that another user suggestet: each Magnetic proc gives a 5% chance for EVERY hit, gun, meele, ability, everything to be rolled a second time. (as if the enemy had been shoot/hit/magict twice) For now that would be limited to 50% but still results in a very interesting mechanic that despite giving a comparatively low damage bonus, could be useful for some builds by making Crits more consistent and building meele counter faster. I know some of you are going to hate me for this, but i do belive bothe Toxic and Viral need a little nerf. They are just to good, especially with the proposed changes. Toxic could be changed to only Bypass 50% of the shields (100% for the procs) the specific value could be tweaked according to feedback and statistics of course, this way it would retain its unique function but end up slightly weaker in comparison to magnetic, which it currently absolutely dominates. Viral should in my opinion loose its initial 100% bonus damage, this way at 10 stacks it would "only" multiply the incoming damage by 250% instead of the current 325%. That is already more than any other status effect could possibly do and way stronger than what i propose for Magnetic, therfore it should stay the strongest, but the difference to other elements gets slightly smaller.

Third: The proposed Armor change is quite interesting, and i belive the max Armor cap should be used, although with some slight tweakes. Right now the EHP (Effective Health Points) of Armored Enemys scale exponentially because both their HP (Health) and Armor get incereased and Armor is essentially a Health multiplier (every 300 Armor increase the EHP by 2x) so if you double the HP and increase the armor by 300 you quadrupled the EHP, wherease if you increase the HP and Shield which are Additive this does not happen. For example: 100 HP + 300 Armor = 200 EHP,    200 HP + 600 Armor = 800 EHP,   100 HP + 100 Shield = 200 EHP,   200 HP + 200 Shield = 400 EHP. This results in Armored Enemys becoming way tougher as the Level increases compared to ones without Armor. At Level 15 a Corpus Tech has 950 EHP whereas a Level 15 Grineer Heavy gunner has 1.518,67 EHP so roughly 1.5x as much, so far so good. At Level 100 however the Corpus Tech has 81.415,75 EHP the Level 100 Heavy gunner has 700.733,13 EHP roughly 8.5x as much EHP! A trend which only continues with increasing level and gets worsend by Steel Path. Unsurprisingly this creates a huge power difference, and makes anti Armor absolutely mandatory. Because of that i do not think it is a good idea to increase Grineer health to keep a similar TTK (Time to Kill) as we have now, and instead the EHP of Equivalent/Similar Grineer and Corpus units should be brought closer together, obviously we can't immideatly reduce the EHP of Grineer units to 1/10 - 1/40 of their current values (just in the "normal" level range) and we can't increas Corpus EHP by factor 10 or more either, but a temporary middle ground should be possible. That way the Players get time to Adjust to the Changes and the Developers can try to tweak and Balance the game, to make it Fair and fun, without turning the enemys into complete pushovers. The final goal However should (at least in my opinion) to be to have a fixed armor value that does not change regardless of Level (i'd suggest 3000 max for non Steel Path and 6000 max for Steel Path as this should keep 80% Armor strip competitive compared to full Armor strip). Changing the Armor formula however seems like a very bad idea, as it currently is a very elegant and easy to understand formula wich Scales absoluetly linear. I also don't think full Armor strip should be removed, as the problem of even 20% armor still being a huge damage reduction, can be solved by limiting the maximum armor, something wich DE is already planning to employ with the next update. Note: DE if you don't like 100% Armor strip why are you introducing so many new ways to do it? even Jade is supposed to get an ability for it, as if Resurrecting allys from afar wasn't strong enough. 

Fourth: Please scrap the idea of throwing out all of the different Health types, in favor of faction Healt, it produces super weird interactions like Grineer meat being super vulnerable to Corrosive and Corpus Meat being super resistant, takes a lot of the flavor out, limites build variety, forces Players to switch loadouts (something which i at least do not like at all) and inadvertedly makes Viral + Heat even stronger, after it will get a passive buffe from the reduced maximum armor anyways. And as a bonus doesn't even help New Players with modding all that much, as there are many more things that can affect and make or break a build than just the elements. from what i can tell you could achive 95% of your stated goal by just writing the best elemental combos for each faction on the Starchart and leaving everything else as is. Oh and one little request from me should you decide to do that: please don't put any physical elements on there, it could easily confuse new players, and i can't think of many situations in wich modding for a physical element is very useful. Lets face it no matter how many impact mods you put on a Soma, it wont turn into a great anti Corpus weapon, one Toxic mod however...

 

If anyone actually made it this far: thank you for reading and sorry for my bad english.

Outstanding SOOTH post! Lawd, I hope Pablo gets this far! 😅

[deinonychus1]

While I love the idea of consolidating health, armor, and shields, maybe make two health types? It doesn't feel right that, say, toxin or viral would be especially useful against mechanical enemies, like corpus robotics, grineer machines, and sentient drones. Maybe two health types would strike that balance between logical sense and convenient streamlining.

[vixenpixel]

9 hours ago, Aphyllorchis said:

If anyone actually made it this far: thank you for reading and sorry for my bad english.

I only read this. :c I'm sorry!

[Aphyllorchis]

Zitat

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Aphyllorchis:

Fourth: Please scrap the idea of throwing out all of the different Health types, in favor of faction Healt, it produces super weird interactions like Grineer meat being super vulnerable to Corrosive and Corpus Meat being super resistant, takes a lot of the flavor out, limites build variety, forces Players to switch loadouts (something which i at least do not like at all) and inadvertedly makes Viral + Heat even stronger, after it will get a passive buff from the reduced maximum armor anyways. And as a bonus doesn't even help New Players with modding all that much, as there are many more things that can affect and make or break a build than just the elements. from what i can tell you could achive 95% of your stated goal by just writing the best elemental combos for each faction on the Starchart and leaving everything else as is. Oh and one little request from me should you decide to do that: please don't put any physical elements on there, it could easily confuse new players, and i can't think of many situations in wich modding for a physical element is very useful. Lets face it no matter how many impact mods you put on a Soma, it wont turn into a great anti Corpus weapon, one Toxic mod however...

 

On that note: overframe.gg is a great tool for figuring out how to mod weapons as you can try out different mod combinations and immidiatly see how each and every mod affects your DPS (Damage Per Second), without investing large amounts of resources. Part of why it is so great is that users can write an explanation for why they did what they did, and other users can vote for it. So why not introduce something like this in WF? Hell you could even add something like Target DPS and TTK (Time to kill) for every enemy the player has scanned (with a level slider and Steel Path toggle like in the Simulacrum) to make scanning more useful and show exactly how the different build choices affect each and every enemy.

[Azamagon]

12 hours ago, deinonychus1 said:

While I love the idea of consolidating health, armor, and shields, maybe make two health types? It doesn't feel right that, say, toxin or viral would be especially useful against mechanical enemies, like corpus robotics, grineer machines, and sentient drones. Maybe two health types would strike that balance between logical sense and convenient streamlining.

Agreed. Streamlining is good and all, but it does feel it is going a bit too far. As you say, having the same weakness on robotics and living organisms feels... off.

[deinonychus1]

On 2024-06-09 at 5:38 AM, Azamagon said:

Agreed. Streamlining is good and all, but it does feel it is going a bit too far. As you say, having the same weakness on robotics and living organisms feels... off.

Right. It's not much more effort or trouble understanding, just flesh health and machine health: not going super in-depth like the current system's thirteen health types, just the two. 

Edited June 11 by deinonychus1
Wrong number

[_GoodLuck_]

@[DE]Pablo Will Snow Globe with 1,000,000HP limit (cap) be removed or capped to int32? It's difficult to use Snow Globe against high level units (like 9999lvl in Chain mode)

 

EDIT:

Also some of AoEs passes thru Snow Globe:

(Enemy used: Napalm)

 

Edited June 14 by _GoodLuck_

[Kenflesh]

В 02.06.2024 в 18:56, PrimeSumix сказал:

Bro stop nerfing enemies and try buffing elements... Idk about the rest but i'm tired of this game being so easy, DE don't you see how ppl deal 2 billions dmg, one shot acolytes and can't die cus enemies are trash??? My biggest dream is a gigantic buff to basically every enemy in this game so that it's actually challenging and fun.

Just take all the mods out of your guns and killing enemies will become very challenging and fun just like you wanted.

[ThomasBrody]

On 2024-06-08 at 10:16 AM, Aphyllorchis said:

First of all: DE Please don't group multiple changes together espechially not ones as disruptive as the Armor and Faction damage ones. It makes it way more difficult to see the effect of each individual changes has on the game and ends up with essentialy three diffrent discussions in the same forum thread.

Second: I do like the proposed damage type changes in general, although im not sure about Magnetic getting a bonus against overguard, mainly because i dislike overguard on enemys as it weakens CC both from Abilitys as well as from status effects and therefore adversly makes pure damage (both in form of Crit weapons and high damage abilitys) more useful, i.e "i might not be able to disable you right now but i can still kill you" (Kullervo says Hi) wich seems counterproductive to me, as far as im concerned, we need the opposit effect so: " i might not be able to kill you right now but i can still disable you". This could potentially be achived by removing overguard and instead multiplying the health of units which used to have overguard by 4 or potentially even 8. (or give 600-1200 extra alloy armor). The fact that there are at least 13 Exeptions to overguard should also give you a hint that it isn't a great mechanic. Magnetic could instead get the effect that another user suggestet: each Magnetic proc gives a 5% chance for EVERY hit, gun, meele, ability, everything to be rolled a second time. (as if the enemy had been shoot/hit/magict twice) For now that would be limited to 50% but still results in a very interesting mechanic that despite giving a comparatively low damage bonus, could be useful for some builds by making Crits more consistent and building meele counter faster. I know some of you are going to hate me for this, but i do belive bothe Toxic and Viral need a little nerf. They are just to good, especially with the proposed changes. Toxic could be changed to only Bypass 50% of the shields (100% for the procs) the specific value could be tweaked according to feedback and statistics of course, this way it would retain its unique function but end up slightly weaker in comparison to magnetic, which it currently absolutely dominates. Viral should in my opinion loose its initial 100% bonus damage, this way at 10 stacks it would "only" multiply the incoming damage by 250% instead of the current 325%. That is already more than any other status effect could possibly do and way stronger than what i propose for Magnetic, therfore it should stay the strongest, but the difference to other elements gets slightly smaller.

Third: The proposed Armor change is quite interesting, and i belive the max Armor cap should be used, although with some slight tweakes. Right now the EHP (Effective Health Points) of Armored Enemys scale exponentially because both their HP (Health) and Armor get incereased and Armor is essentially a Health multiplier (every 300 Armor increase the EHP by 2x) so if you double the HP and increase the armor by 300 you quadrupled the EHP, wherease if you increase the HP and Shield which are Additive this does not happen. For example: 100 HP + 300 Armor = 200 EHP,    200 HP + 600 Armor = 800 EHP,   100 HP + 100 Shield = 200 EHP,   200 HP + 200 Shield = 400 EHP. This results in Armored Enemys becoming way tougher as the Level increases compared to ones without Armor. At Level 15 a Corpus Tech has 950 EHP whereas a Level 15 Grineer Heavy gunner has 1.518,67 EHP so roughly 1.5x as much, so far so good. At Level 100 however the Corpus Tech has 81.415,75 EHP the Level 100 Heavy gunner has 700.733,13 EHP roughly 8.5x as much EHP! A trend which only continues with increasing level and gets worsend by Steel Path. Unsurprisingly this creates a huge power difference, and makes anti Armor absolutely mandatory. Because of that i do not think it is a good idea to increase Grineer health to keep a similar TTK (Time to Kill) as we have now, and instead the EHP of Equivalent/Similar Grineer and Corpus units should be brought closer together, obviously we can't immideatly reduce the EHP of Grineer units to 1/10 - 1/40 of their current values (just in the "normal" level range) and we can't increas Corpus EHP by factor 10 or more either, but a temporary middle ground should be possible. That way the Players get time to Adjust to the Changes and the Developers can try to tweak and Balance the game, to make it Fair and fun, without turning the enemys into complete pushovers. The final goal However should (at least in my opinion) be to have a fixed armor value that does not change regardless of Level (i'd suggest 3000 max for non Steel Path and 6000 max for Steel Path as this should keep 80% Armor strip competitive compared to full Armor strip). Changing the Armor formula however seems like a very bad idea, as it currently is a very elegant and easy to understand formula wich Scales absoluetly linear. I also don't think full Armor strip should be removed, as the problem of even 20% armor still being a huge damage reduction, can be solved by limiting the maximum armor, something wich DE is already planning to employ with the next update. Note: DE if you don't like 100% Armor strip why are you introducing so many new ways to do it? even Jade is supposed to get an ability for it, as if Resurrecting allys from afar wasn't strong enough. 

Fourth: Please scrap the idea of throwing out all of the different Health types, in favor of faction Healt, it produces super weird interactions like Grineer meat being super vulnerable to Corrosive and Corpus Meat being super resistant, takes a lot of the flavor out, limites build variety, forces Players to switch loadouts (something which i at least do not like at all) and inadvertedly makes Viral + Heat even stronger, after it will get a passive buff from the reduced maximum armor anyways. And as a bonus doesn't even help New Players with modding all that much, as there are many more things that can affect and make or break a build than just the elements. from what i can tell you could achive 95% of your stated goal by just writing the best elemental combos for each faction on the Starchart and leaving everything else as is. Oh and one little request from me should you decide to do that: please don't put any physical elements on there, it could easily confuse new players, and i can't think of many situations in wich modding for a physical element is very useful. Lets face it no matter how many impact mods you put on a Soma, it wont turn into a great anti Corpus weapon, one Toxic mod however...

 

If anyone actually made it this far: thank you for reading and sorry for my bad english.

First of all: Some changes NEED to be shipped together because they indirectly or directly affect each other and compliment each other.
Discussing these changes together are NEEDED. The general theme is the same, How do players deal with the EHP scaling of enemies versus their arsenal (Status effects/Elemental Damage)

Second of All: Occasional enemies with overguard is fine and healhthy. You already have enemies that you can disable that you can't kill instantly unless you are using the S tier items.  Also the answer to toxic isnt to nerf it lower than magnetic  either. You are basically just flipping the roles, with magnetic supposedly going to be  slightly less than toxic now, instead make toxic slightly less than magnetic , which just ends up with the same issue. One will just be better even if the other is close, its use will be lower.

Third of all:  The current armor formula is anything but easy to understand for players in game. Why does reducing an enemies armor 90% of the way , they maintain a massive amount of damage reduction like they are basically untouched? Effectively it might be linear scaling, by in game, a steel path heavy enemies with 90% of its armor removed still feels absurdly tanky. Better to just full strip. Why would making the armor cap and therefore the damage reduction absurdly low be better? It would  just make the meta shift from armor reduction a needed to being completely ignored. Which is not what they want.  The goal is to make armor stripping very strong, but an enemy having armor not delete your player damage in a way that hinders build decisions.

Also, incase you missed it, the workshop said any enemy with armor will have a minimum so jade will not be full stripping. They most likely showed jade off on a build that didnt have min armor enabled.

Fourth: The current system already limits build variety. With a focus on Armor and if it doesnt have armor then it's just viral all the way. The changes might take some of the special and "lore" based damage affected x y z, but will expand build variety. Because as of now, You are only gearing to deal with armor, and if it doesnt have armor or a special damage reduction, the damage you are using to damage its health doesnnt really matter with the level of power thats in the game. 
I don't understand how you are complaining about switching loadouts per enemy factions on one hand, but then saying the current game has better build variety.  You are basically destroying your own arguments. You like all the special things that come from the current system, but you only want to use a single loadout versus everything (which just happens to overlap with the meta of armor). Viral and heat loadouts may be getting an indirectl 20% buff, but every thing else is getting a 50% + buff in terms of usefulness against high level enemies so the meta actually ends up being much closer overall. Writing the current "best" elemental combos is impossible, because the game revolves around Removing armor, then doing viral. Thats the whole meta. IF they just list out the faction damage reductions and increases as they are, its just information bloat and will confuse players because really, as of now, the only real threat is ARMORED enemies. I dont see how you are afraid of confusing new players then on the other hand want to paste the current info graph of each faction in game, despite not actually directly being related to the meta (who cares what cloned flesh is weak to when the enemies that you are damaging with JUST cloned flesh die instantly) No reason to not include physical damage on the starchart along with elements.

 

[insanitybit]

I'm just hoping they stealth fix Gas to take elemental mods into account.

Edited June 17 by insanitybit

[VENDOMINUS]

Didn't they specifically nerf it because it was too strong. I think that is DE's current stance on the Gas matter.

[Traumtulpe]

3 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

Didn't they specifically nerf it because it was too strong. I think that is DE's current stance on the Gas matter.

They nerfed Gas's triple scaling with faction damage to the standard double scaling <- This is fine.

They nerfed Gas's double scaling with stealth multiplier to standard single scaling <- This is fine.

They nerfed Gas's damage type from Toxin to, well, Gas. <- This is pretty bad, -50% against all Grineer? Ouch.

They nerfed Gas's stacking from the standard unlimited to a cap of 10. <- Okay you just killed Gas dead.

They nerfed Gas's scaling from the substandard "only Toxin mods" to "no elemental scaling". <- Stop, it's already dead!

Edited June 18 by Traumtulpe

[Traumtulpe]

15 hours ago, insanitybit said:

I'm just hoping they stealth fix Gas to take elemental mods into account.

Gas does take elemental mods into account - "Gas" elemental mods, that is. Of which there are zero in the game. This is not a guess, you can test it by using Lavos's new augment to buff your weapons with Gas damage.

[insanitybit]

Okay, well, then I hope that they fix *that*. As in, it should scale with the toxin and heat mods. I think your post really demonstrates nicely where things went from "this nerf is appropriate" to the current really really bad state. If I could undo any of those changes it's probably the elemental scaling, and adding heat scaling. I'd probably change some aspects of the cap as well so that weaker procs don't overwrite stronger procs. I think these would be really reasonable changes that would take Gas from extremely bad, even in the niche where it's intended to be good, and put it into at the very least "not great in general, maybe okay in its niche". It would take more work to fix it properly but I'm not gonna propose a ton of changes at once when I think even just elemental mods alone would be massively helpful.

Edited June 18 by insanitybit

[HasagiReportJngl]

"Great". All builds now have to be completely remaked. And goodbye gas, cold, and radiation. Blast has become even more trash that it was. Viral now exists only for status procs, it became useless as damage type.

Please bring it back.

Edited June 18 by HasagiReportJngl

[Forgek]

Chiming in to say that in Simulacrum testing, my slash melees now feel like wet noodles. Rest in peace Reaper Prime, it basically does an insignificant fraction of what it used to do, even after changing damage type to match the enemy I was hitting. At least, the heavy attack build is ultra dead. And more specifically, the slash procs do almost no damage at all.

On the other hand, my Acceltra feels more powerful on initial hit, but the Hunter Munitions procs seem to, as noted before, do nothing. Seems Slash is totally dead in the new meta? I feel like I need *waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay* more than 3 forma to make up for this.

[[DE]Sam]

Howdy Tenno,

We've received reports of Slash Status Effects not functioning correctly, and we're actively working to resolve this issue! For added information, this is unintentional, and the bug is currently seemingly limited to just the Simulacrum. For now, we're working on resolving this with a near-future Hotfix.

However, with the Update live, this thread will now be locked. But, we're keeping an eye on Status Rework feedback still! 

Thank you!