Kuva Sobek should not be allowed to use Acid Shells

[ToastyGrimlock98]

18 minutes ago, FiveN9ne said:

Lmao, there you go again telling people my opinion instead of me. Amazing how you know better than me about the things i say and think. You should tell DE this amazing ability of yours and they will listen to every suggestion you make. At this point i hope this thread gets locked and deleted because you seem more and more like a troll.

Aggresive behavior, defensive position taken in argument, side track topic to something else.

I’m right aren’t I? You do only value weapons for their riven dispo.

this isn’t a troll post. It was me trying to prove a point and only really half succeeding at it while also being reminded of the WF forums reputation.

DE should actually consider player feedback more often. More often than not it usually just feels like they just use it as an excuse to make something worse. They should strive to make more good changes based on feedback.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

13 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Nobody is directly calling you out because they’re not the ones being the big attention grabber here. I am. I’m the one that made the thread and your comments have all been in direct response to me. And I have been directly responding to you and everyone else.

You want to prove that you’re not just showing bias in favor of the people against Scattered Justice being usable on Kuva Hek. Go back to those comments and question those people’s logic for why it makes sense to them that it shouldn’t. And don’t use me setting up this thread in the first place as an excuse not to.

 

No one is "directly calling me out", because I am not quoting them and challenging anything they wrote with bad argumentation or rhetoric. You are doing that online internet tendency of creating "two sides" and dividing people into those two sides, because for some subjective personal reason you don't like people having nuance and the capacity for multiple perspectives. Some of which may not be as extreme as yours. The same reason as why I am not scrutinising other peoples posts or "calling them out" either. Its normal and fine to look at peoples posts and thoughts and think yeah, "I get what they are saying", even if you might not necessarily agree with every single little detail.

I don't have to prove anything, and I don't think people are showing bias, I think people are generally showing acceptance, awareness and understanding, which they can also show even if they might have a different preference. Then even having a different preference, they could articulate that differently than you have. Then again, their preference may not be overt or extreme like yours, and its also fine to have an overt and extreme preference, like you do, just be mindful of distorting other peoples perspectives to fit a narrative you have created. 

I don't need to question anyone else's logic, they are all generally consistent and fine in context. I'm not using you for anything, you reply, I'll probably find something relevant to say with what you said, and then reply back. For example in this reply, you went from earlier asking me why I aren't scrutinising other peoples posts, and just yours, to now how "people are ignoring me" to focus on you the big attention grabber, as if our arguments and points have been the same? What kind of twist is that? You don't have to reply to everyone that disagrees with you. Especially if you can't genuinely understand their perspective, because then the thread will just become people correcting you over and over, and not because of what views you have, but your inability to have a sincere and genuine normal conversation, by claiming they are saying or doing things they aren't. 

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

13 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

DE should actually consider player feedback more often. More often than not it usually just feels like they just use it as an excuse to make something worse. They should strive to make more good changes based on feedback.

 

They should, DE should. 

However you are doing this thing, and its pretty common, but you are mischaracterising other peoples points, to fit the idea that are coming to their points or perspectives through illogical or inconsistent means, and that you are just giving good and consistent feedback. Except just by reading through the thread, its easy to see that you have been the one making false claims, misrepresenting others views, side tracking by inferring about other peoples motives and character, trying to pit different people against each other, not being able to sincerely understand other peoples points. 

For your criticism of DE and the idea they should be better about getting feedback (which they generally should)... Imagine if they handled feedback the way you have in this thread? Good feedback requires sincerity, and neutrality is also important when recognising that other players may have different and competing perspectives, that are of different natures and strengths. Its all pretty normal, average and mundane for people to be different that way. Trying to "rally the troops" over getting DE to course correct over Scattered Justice, admirable, but some people will just care more about things like Regal Aya, Heirlooms, and even Dante changes. 

As one Kuva Hek fan to another, I am sorry Scattered Justice doesn't work, it would have been cool to see, and I am sorry that someone moved your other thread to bug reporting, but also the people posting in this thread aren't your enemy. You don't have to try and "gatcha" with your arguments and points. You don't have to be so confrontational. More people would probably be supportive of your actual goal and intent, if you were just sincere and straight forward instead of just trying to question their logic and consistency for hoping or wanting Kuva Sobek to be able to use Acid Shells. 

[ToastyGrimlock98]

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

No one is "directly calling me out", because I am not quoting them and challenging anything they wrote with bad argumentation or rhetoric. You are doing that online internet tendency of creating "two sides" and dividing people into those two sides, because for some subjective personal reason you don't like people having nuance and the capacity for multiple perspectives. Some of which may not be as extreme as yours. The same reason as why I am not scrutinising other peoples posts or "calling them out" either. Its normal and fine to look at peoples posts and thoughts and think yeah, "I get what they are saying", even if you might not necessarily agree with every single little detail.

I don't have to prove anything, and I don't think people are showing bias, I think people are generally showing acceptance, awareness and understanding, which they can also show even if they might have a different preference. Then even having a different preference, they could articulate that differently than you have. Then again, their preference may not be overt or extreme like yours, and its also fine to have an overt and extreme preference, like you do, just be mindful of distorting other peoples perspectives to fit a narrative you have created. 

I don't need to question anyone else's logic, they are all generally consistent and fine in context. I'm not using you for anything, you reply, I'll probably find something relevant to say with what you said, and then reply back. For example in this reply, you went from earlier asking me why I aren't scrutinising other peoples posts, and just yours, to now how "people are ignoring me" to focus on you the big attention grabber, as if our arguments and points have been the same? What kind of twist is that? You don't have to reply to everyone that disagrees with you. Especially if you can't genuinely understand their perspective, because then the thread will just become people correcting you over and over, and not because of what views you have, but your inability to have a sincere and genuine normal conversation, by claiming they are saying or doing things they aren't. 

 

Theres a difference between nuance and hypocrisy.

Well until you start showing tangible proof that you’re truly unbias to this then I don’t really see a reason to further discussion with you as arguing with you is literally no different than arguing with anyone else on this topic.

I feel like I misrepresented my argument of me being the big attention grabber here. But it basically boils down to your “neutral perspective” on the topic is doing more to defend the view I’m opposing simply because you display no desire to look at the other side of the argument and ask “why do you think that?”

You claim that everyone else’s arguments have been sound and consistent, but have you actually read their arguments? They literally pull irrelevant and contradictory nonsense to try and justify their side. To the point where I dropped the who “nerf Kuva Sobek” act just to ask what was wrong with these people.

Regardless of what you say or how you feel. Your actions show you clearly picking a side.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Just now, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Theres a difference between nuance and hypocrisy. Well until you start showing tangible proof that you’re truly unbias to this then I don’t really see a reason to further discussion with you as arguing with you is literally no different than arguing with anyone else on this topic. I feel like I misrepresented my argument of me being the big attention grabber here. But it basically boils down to your “neutral perspective” on the topic is doing more to defend the view I’m opposing simply because you display no desire to look at the other side of the argument and ask “why do you think that?”

You claim that everyone else’s arguments have been sound and consistent, but have you actually read their arguments? They literally pull irrelevant and contradictory nonsense to try and justify their side. To the point where I dropped the who “nerf Kuva Sobek” act just to ask what was wrong with these people.

Regardless of what you say or how you feel. Your actions show you clearly picking a side.

 

Agreed about nuance and hypocrisy. 

You are free to not further the conversation with anyone, including myself, no one is holding you hostage. I am choosing to reply to you, because I enjoy talking about Warframe, and rhetorical techniques and argumentation. I don't think I need to show "tangible proof that I am truely unbiased to this", because what does that even actually mean? What is that criteria? Why do I have to demonstrate it, and you don't? Assuming you haven't, which may not be accurate, depending on what you consider "tangible proof of lack of bias on the matter". 

I think you are being misrepresented, because your original rhetorical method wasn't successful, because people took you at face value, and attempting to have an opinion on Kuva Sobek and Acid Shells preemptively rather than what you clarified later was about taken issue with DE over Kuva Hek and Scattered Justice. Then even when you were clarifying, you fell back on relatively weak points and arguments (consistency) that other people quickly pointed out as such, but then your resulting approach was to get defensive and to start passively and actively accuse others of, well a lot, except actually just pausing for a moment and reflecting that maybe your points and arguments could be improved, so that your feedback is also stronger and better. 

Neutrality can depend and differ in the context and variables present. Your accusation of neutrality carries with it implicit complacency or apathy in the sense of not being willing to take action or a stand, when it can also be the absence of strong emotions, or a relative stance, also devoid of strong emotions, around understanding or acknowledging realistic or likely consequences and actions. For example, what is something you know that other people are critical of in Warframe, that you don't necessarily disagree with, but also don't necessarily feel strongly about.

This is why I asked you, if this issue is worth quitting the game over to you. Which you didn't address. Why? Well probably because even if you might have strong feelings over the matter, your feelings and opinion isn't so strong you will quit the game. So if you don't see it changing? You are considering and acknowledging the lack of change, but you are also engaging with the game, so you are somewhere on the scale, between those that might have some feelings but not strong feelings, and those that might have feelings so strong, they consider it "cowardly to stay and support DE over this important matter". So you should be in theory, be able to understand and relate to people who don't feel as strongly as those people. 

So to me, you just aren't that good at actually honestly and competently understanding other peoples points and views, without rearranging them to seemingly make sense to you, so you can then address it. Also when I say honestly, I don't mean as far as your character and intentions. I mean, as far as accurately assessing and interpreting others points, as they would agree and acknowledge. Like when you disagree with someone, but you both acknowledge and agree that the other did understand your point and argument. Thats not happening here a lot with you, because so many of peoples replies to you have been "I didn't say that". So we can't even get to a point of agreeing to disagree, because you don't seem to actually understand other peoples points. Which should be relatable to you, if you felt misrepresented. If you feel misrepresented, maybe, try not to misrepresent others? 

Relative to you, in regards to other peoples points and arguments, I said they are generally showing acceptance, awareness and understanding, and that they are all generally consistent and fine in context. I never claimed that everyone else's arguments "have been sound and consistent", again, quote me. Context is important, and again you have made a claim, that I out right demonstrated as questionable, because you made a claim about what other people have been saying or said, then when actually directed asked to just quote the instance, you ignore and don't address that point anymore. An argument being sound and consistent requires a lot more involvement and establishing of criteria and context. Its why I emphasised that peoples posts are pretty fine in context and why there isn't a random need to try and be confrontational over them. Without establishing parameters and context for what we should classify as consistency specifically in a given conversation, it would be difficult to make any meaningful observations about whether they are being consistent or not and whether the reason makes sense or not. 

They don't have a "side", if thats your prerogative to assume that this is some hostile, online drama, with little sides, where people have to fight and bicker, and flame each other, especially those on the other side. I mean sure, I can't stop you, but I will point out that its unneeded, and you ever think the reason why you don't see any reason to continue discussing this with me, but I am happy to continue, is because I don't think this is a "sides" issue, and I keep pointing out how you misidentify peoples arguments and points, when you just seem to want to generalise the "others" as being the "unreasonable ones". 

Given how badly you have attempted to interpret and then address other peoples actions and arguments, which again, isn't unusual, misunderstandings can happen often, but you (as in everyone) can either acknowledge that as happening or they can double down. You seem to like double downing, but given that, you don't think its a little funny to make claims about whose actions clearly demonstrate something?

[drnlmza]

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long without anyone mentioning that the Sobek has it's own Steel Meridan augment - Shattering Justice.

 

Any argument for consistency would be for the Kuva Sobek not to be able to use that (since it's a syndicate augment, like Scattering Justice), not about Acid Shells.

[Novashank]

L take my dude.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

14 hours ago, drnlmza said:

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long without anyone mentioning that the Sobek has it's own Steel Meridan augment - Shattering Justice.

 

Any argument for consistency would be for the Kuva Sobek not to be able to use that (since it's a syndicate augment, like Scattering Justice), not about Acid Shells.

For consistency sake it shouldn’t be allowed to use either.

As Scattered Justice being a syndicate mod has nothing to do with it being unusable on Kuva Hek.

3 hours ago, Novashank said:

L take my dude.

Thats the point.

[Novashank]

45 minutes ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Thats the point.

Well then 8/8 gr8 b8 m8, l8r! 

[Liberator_Numen]

On 2024-04-26 at 4:51 PM, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

or just make Scattered Justice usable on Kuva Hek.

That's the dream...But it's a nightmare from a balancing perspective, in spite of all the options we already do have that could outperform it.
Consistency is a weird thing in this game.
The least they can do is throw a Vaykor Hek skin my way for the trouble.

[Grave.Knight]

15 meter explosion dealing 450 +45% enemies max health on enemy death is not remotely the equivalence of +200% multishot.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

4 hours ago, Grave.Knight said:

15 meter explosion dealing 450 +45% enemies max health on enemy death is not remotely the equivalence of +200% multishot.

It’s an increase it damage output. For a weapon that should already be dealing decent damage. Literally the logic DE used for Scattered Justice. Therefor Acid Shells shouldn’t be usable on Kuva Sobek

6 hours ago, Liberator_Numen said:

That's the dream...But it's a nightmare from a balancing perspective, in spite of all the options we already do have that could outperform it.
Consistency is a weird thing in this game.
The least they can do is throw a Vaykor Hek skin my way for the trouble.

Dante’s literally nuking rooms up to level 300 like it’s nothing.

giving a single target weapon more damage isn’t going to suddenly break the meta.

[RyllusPurple]

On 2024-04-26 at 5:55 PM, LittleLeoniePrime said:

Since when are we asking for preemptive nerfs?

Dante players still mad about Saryn

[LittleLeoniePrime]

6 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

giving a single target weapon more damage isn’t going to suddenly break the meta.

correct. now rethink your OP.

[HBdoesMC]

I'm so happy you made this post, it's stuff like this that really drives the community forward as a collective into new different directions. Without incredibly bad takes with basically nothing to back them up, we would never be able to tell the good ideas from the terrible ones. 

But like, on a real note, I genuinely hope your just trolling. There is no way you actually thing that's a good idea, assuming you have actually read some of the responses you've gotten, you know there are plenty of other weapons that still have access to their respective augments and the K-Hek is kinda the outlier here. 

 

(dyslexic, sorry for any/all grammatical errors 💜) 

[ToastyGrimlock98]

2 hours ago, HBdoesMC said:

I'm so happy you made this post, it's stuff like this that really drives the community forward as a collective into new different directions. Without incredibly bad takes with basically nothing to back them up, we would never be able to tell the good ideas from the terrible ones. 

But like, on a real note, I genuinely hope your just trolling. There is no way you actually thing that's a good idea, assuming you have actually read some of the responses you've gotten, you know there are plenty of other weapons that still have access to their respective augments and the K-Hek is kinda the outlier here. 

 

(dyslexic, sorry for any/all grammatical errors 💜) 

It’s not my idea. It was DE’s idea for Kuva Hek. Stands to reason they should be consistent for all weapons.

6 hours ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

correct. now rethink your OP.

No, DE should rethink letting Scattered Justice on Kuva Hek. And don’t stop thinking until they decide to let it on Kuva Hek.

or make all weapon augment ineligible for all upgrade variants.

[xerrus]

3 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

It’s not my idea. It was DE’s idea for Kuva Hek. Stands to reason they should be consistent for all weapons.

No, DE should rethink letting Scattered Justice on Kuva Hek. And don’t stop thinking until they decide to let it on Kuva Hek.

or make all weapon augment ineligible for all upgrade variants.

Being consistent would mean allowing the Kuva hek to have scattered justice (which as someone who used the hek+ variants for a good chunk of their playtime I say bring it on!) so I'll agree there.

If you wanted to suggest "consistency" to have the kuva hek be able to have scattered justice, you probably should have just said that to begin with, might have had a more positive/supportive response?

[LittleLeoniePrime]

11 hours ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

DE should rethink letting Scattered Justice on Kuva Hek. And don’t stop thinking until they decide to let it on Kuva Hek.

now read the statement you quoted me on again and reread your OP. Just make a clearer and more straight forward post next time that nobody will misunderstand.

Edited May 1 by LittleLeoniePrime

[Eedu777]

As for my opinion on your post: No. And Heres why:
If Kuva Sobek doesn't get its augment, Regular Sobek will be much better due to the access to its Augment. It with Saryn can clear Steel Path rooms no problemo.
 Also it would spark a fire in the community about it. ''Why does Kuva Ogris have its augment, but not Sobek?''
And me: '' If Tenet Detron gets to use its own augment, Then Why Not Kuva Sobek?''

So, what is your point? To bait and troll? Cause Frustration and headache? Get attention from people through the use of a bad take?

[ToastyGrimlock98]

1 hour ago, Eedu777 said:

As for my opinion on your post: No. And Heres why:
If Kuva Sobek doesn't get its augment, Regular Sobek will be much better due to the access to its Augment. It with Saryn can clear Steel Path rooms no problemo.
 Also it would spark a fire in the community about it. ''Why does Kuva Ogris have its augment, but not Sobek?''
And me: '' If Tenet Detron gets to use its own augment, Then Why Not Kuva Sobek?''

So, what is your point? To bait and troll? Cause Frustration and headache? Get attention from people through the use of a bad take?

Prove that DE’s logic behind Scattered Justice not being allowed on Kuva Hek is stupid.

[Eedu777]

49 minutes ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Prove that DE’s logic behind Scattered Justice not being allowed on Kuva Hek is stupid.

Since Dual Toxocyst Incarnon has so much Multishot and can kill liches fast and easily, i see no reason as to why DE should limit the potential of Kuva Hek.

I have a riven for it that has 94.5% Multishot paired with Galvanized Hell, i get +200% Multishot right there, but that is no excuse to limit the poor thing.
 My Kuva Hek is used for killing Liches. thats it. and heres Dual toxocyst doing the same thing and killing crowds by the 200s (if i remember correctly of course).
  Preventing the usage of Scattered Justice on it maybe related to crashing: Shoot all 4 barrels with +40 multishot causing a hard crash in playtesting.-
 im assuming that of course, not hard facts since im just another guy on the internet.

So, there is probably a reason to limiting Kuva Hek from using Scattered Justice, but i just cannot think of a good one. therefore there really isn't
 Power Creep is abundant as is. And there are weapons that can outperform it *ahem, looks at Vasto and dual toxocyst incarnon form*  Those guns can have massive Multishot, so why can't Kuva Hek?
 

Edited May 1 by Eedu777
i could edit and write better. just let me know.

[Joylesstuna]

Ok but no.

[ChaoticOrderly]

Just ask for Scattered Justice to work on Kuva Hek. Anyone reading this immediately knew that is what the OP really wanted.

[Ntrophy]

Wait till this guy finds out the tenet detron has been using thermagnetic shells for years…

[Venus-Venera]

Am 26.4.2024 um 23:12 schrieb ToastyGrimlock98:

It was decided that since Kuva Hek was already better than regular Hek that it shouldn’t be allowed to use the Hek’s augment mod Scattered Justice.

This logic should be maintained with Kuva Sobek should not be allowed to use Acid Shells as it will most likely already be far stronger than regular Sobek and therefor shouldn’t have access to an augment that grants it more damage.

too early to evaluate. first wait and see how the weapon actually performs...