Capped Arcane Purchases from Operation: Belly of the Beast (DevShorts #14)

[Stormandreas]

I'll keep it brief.
In todays Devshorts, Rebecca mentioned that in Gargoyles Cry they "saw a lot of people doing a very serious amount of grinding".

This led to her mentioning that they are going to cap the amount of rewards you can purchase from the Event shop.
No. Don't.
This is an absolutely terrible idea.

Warframe, is a grindy game. That is fact. If players want to grind to insane degrees, let them. Thats what they want to do. Players wanted to grind out multiple sets of arcanes, so they did.
All this will do is eliminate the events replayability if people ARE wanting to replay it and get rewarded for doing so.
Completely removing that option, means you make yet another content island that players forget about. Do it once, get the stuff, never do it again.
Many people grinded out multiple sets of Arcanes during Gargolyes Cry AND Scarlet spear, for trading, helping friends or new players out or even doing giveaways with. Why does DE feel the need to stamp all that out!?

Imagine if Plague Star capped players at 20 forma. Now what?
Or capping Dog Days to only 1000 Nakak pearls per week?

How far is this going to go...

If the problem was just that one event, maybe look at why players were doing "a very serious amount of grinding" for that one event, and improve drop rates on future events, rather than go down an extreme and very ridiculous route of capping players.

Capping players from being able to even enjoy the game the way they want to enjoy it, is a surefire way to kill your game.

DO NOT DO THIS!!!!

Edited April 30 by Stormandreas

[fo3nixz]

 

[Zakkhar]

6 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Imagine if Plague Star capped players at 20 forma. Now what?

Nothing. You just live your life and do other things. What if it was capped from the begining? You wouldnt have any problems with that because the bird was born in cage already.

 

8 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

If the problem was just that one event, maybe look at why players were doing "a very serious amount of grinding" for that one event, and improve drop rates on future events, rather than go down an extreme and very ridiculous route of capping players.

Dunno how others, I did this because Assasinationn dropped the new arcanes and everone were doing it so the runs wennt pretty smooth. It had nothing to do with the event as I already had all my stuff from Scarlett Spear/Orphix Venom.

[Voltage]

I want to acknowledge that this is a DevShort and more information will come from the Devstream in May. Rebecca shared this as not to blindside players when they hear this information next month. I'm writing this feedback to be a point of conversation prior to the Devstream in May.

I'm a bit confused with Rebecca's reasoning here. She talks about doing this as not to burn out players on an excessive farm, but historically, Warframe has always had Operations, Events and Tactical Alerts a player can farm extensively to earn items worth trading later if they choose. It's always been at a players' discretion with how much they want to play in these time-limited farms. Rebecca mentioning burn out feedback is also a bit strange, considering how unchanged Nights of Naberus, Dog Days and Plague Star are for 4, 5, and 7 years now, respectively.

Potentially grindy events (if a player decides) have been a thing for a very long time in Warframe:

1. Operation: Gargoyle's Cry (2024) for Eidolon/Trials Arcanes, Basmu and Ceti Lacera
2. Operation: Orphix Venom (2021) for Eidolon/Trials Arcanes, Basmu and Ceti Lacera
3. Operation: Scarlet Spear (2020) for Eidolon/Trials Arcanes, Basmu and Ceti Lacera
4. Nights of Naberus (2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023) for Exodia Contagion, Exodia Epidemic, Basmu and Ceti Lacera
5. Operation: Plague Star (2017, 2018 (two appearances), 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2023) for Exodia Contagion, Exodia Epidemic, Forma, Fulmination and Sacrifice
6. Dog Days (2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023) has quite a steep grind each year that comes with negative feedback each time it returns.
7. Tactical Alert: Wolf Hunt (2019 and 2023) for Wolf Sledge
8. Hallowed Nightmares (2016, 2017, 2018) for Aura Mods
9. Tactical Alert: Project Undermine (2015) for Electric 60%/60% Status Mods 
10. Tactical Alert: Emergency Exit (2015) for 120% Slash Mods

This is just the list I can think of since I started playing in 2015 and not comprehensive.

This caveat to the event rewards concerns me for a few reasons:

Firstly, Operation: Gargoyle's Cry like any event had some exploits (namely FPS affecting Damage Attenuation) among other things. Then there was also a subset of players who were duplicating Arcane Energize (I was only made aware of this through a PSA to larger traders like myself to avoid "bad Energizes" (similar to bad Platinum). I know Rebecca wouldn't publicly address this, but I do wonder if this is a reason for capped purchases. The feeling I am getting from this announcement is the same I got when Steel Essence purchases for Kuva and Relics were capped from Teshin's Steel Path Honors (and we still see a large presence of AFK Steel Essence farming in Mot with Tenet Envoy throughout Bilibili and Eastern player circles ).

Secondly, I am concerned for future events. One of the only "end-game" things to do in this game is farm valuable items to trade. The most obvious thing to farm are time-limited items. Whether this is an unvaulted piece of Prime gear, Exodia Contagion, Basmu, large quantities of Arcane Energize, or even Sacrifice from Plague Star, players typically farm many duplicates of these to trade later and fuel their costs as players (whether that be slots, cosmetics, boosters, Forma, or more Trading/Riven Mods). This sets a rocky precedence, and I would like DE to clarify if this is just for this event, or if this is a new thing going forward.

If Events, Operations and Tactical Alerts have capped rewards purchases, this puts a massive damper on the nature of F2P for many players. Player burnout is often not within DE's responsibility to solve directly. Intervening in this capacity is unexpected to see from me (as I outlined every other event where you just farmed as you liked). 

That's all. I'm a bit bummed that we haven't had a scored Operation in several years now, and capping Arcane purchases further kills the mood for me. I hope DE gives us more transparency on this in the Devstream given Rebecca has limited time on DevShorts. I'm suspicious about this change, and I really hope this isn't the future for exclusive rewards through events. We've been seeing "capped" purchases on items for a while now in various updates, and it's becoming too normalized, entering reward structures they have no business being a part of. The game having freedom in how much you farm (within reasonable limitations) for 10 years and now retracting on year 11 is questionable.

Edited May 1 by Voltage
Thread merged.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

They just want to drag out how long people do the event for. It doesn't change the overall time it takes to get all the shop stuff. So it’s overall a change that doesn’t help the player in the slightest and that can only mean there’s a secondary motivation behind this choice.

If they actually cared about burnout they’d make the event more rewarding so people aren’t farming a mission 10 times just to get enough currency for a single item like how it feels with every event that gives arcanes.

Eh, not the first time DE’s blatantly lied about their intentions or reasonings behind a decision.

 

[ExcaliburSpecter]

47 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Capping players from being able to even enjoy the game the way they want to enjoy it, is a sure-fire way to kill your game.

They are starting to go down this path more and more.

Its like they don't want us to have fun the way we want to have fun. They want us to have fun in their idea of fun.

so many silly fun builds I used to run have been destroyed and rendered useless and it just took the fun out of it for me.

I'm already Dreading the moment my current silly damage cap build gets nerfed (AGAIN).

[ExcaliburSpecter]

38 minutes ago, Voltage said:

She talks about doing this as not to burn out players on an excessive farm

they have no need to cap the amount you can get, if we want to do it let us. and if someone is going to get burnt out let them have their own self restraint and stop themselves if they need to, don't take away the opportunity of grinding out a ton of Arcanes. I swear if they cap it im not doing the event

[Numerounius]

I think a cap like that is going to do the complete opposite of what they want and have people see it as a grind target thus putting more people on it not less for the wrong reason. I didn't mind previous operations and Plague stars since there was no cap so I was able to get what I wanted early on without having to worry. If it is an extremely high cap like Kuva Steel Essence cap sure since most people aren't going to reach it but not if its 20 arcanes per day or something that severely handicaps players on top of the limited time event.

Currently suffering through the Cavia standing cap for melee arcane adapters for getting my melee builds to end-game complete status right now.

The concept of a standing cap is fine but not when you have to grind for it everyday and be told to stop and come back tomorrow. If it instead rewards a resource to turn in for a cap everyday like Little Duck or Entrati I think that is fine.

I think there is a chance it may still be fine depending on how its implemented such as it having a super high cap that a reasonable player playing 8 hrs a day won't be able to hit or something that evens out the playing field for both high grinders and everyday players like a resource turn-in cap limit. Hopefully it is reasonably communicated beforehand since there have been some attempts at this in Warframe that have gone bad.

[(PSN)rexis12]

The #*!%ing Sibear is still 30k Cryotic, the Sporothrix and Arum Spinoza in the same situation, and who knows how many other dumb Grindy burn out inducing bullS#&$. 

Either actually fix all of that, or stop trying to look like you "Care for the Community" Like the stupid Steel Essence Cap on Kuva and Relics. 

[Voltage]

34 minutes ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

They just want to drag out how long people do the event for. It doesn't change the overall time it takes to get all the shop stuff. So it’s overall a change that doesn’t help the player in the slightest and that can only mean there’s a secondary motivation behind this choice.

If they actually cared about burnout they’d make the event more rewarding so people aren’t farming a mission 10 times just to get enough currency for a single item like how it feels with every event that gives arcanes.

This was my gut reaction as well. As I said in OP, you look at Nights of Naberus, Plague Star, and Dog Days staying close to the same for years, this change just seems questionable.

35 minutes ago, ToastyGrimlock98 said:

Eh, not the first time DE’s blatantly lied about their intentions or reasonings behind a decision.

I don't feel that DE outright lie much, but they are professionals when it comes to damage control for sure, and they very often miss details that almost feel deliberate at times.

[ExcaliburSpecter]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

The #*!%ing Sibear is still 30k Cryotic, the Sporothrix and Arum Spinoza in the same situation, and who knows how many other dumb Grindy burn out inducing bullS#&$. 

Either actually fix all of that, or stop trying to look like you "Care for the Community" Like the stupid Steel Essence Cap on Kuva and Relics. 

I feel this post

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Nothing. You just live your life and do other things. What if it was capped from the begining? You wouldnt have any problems with that because the bird was born in cage already.

I know threads got merged, but this is why it seems questionable:

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

I'm a bit confused with Rebecca's reasoning here. She talks about doing this as not to burn out players on an excessive farm, but historically, Warframe has always had Operations, Events and Tactical Alerts a player can farm extensively to earn items worth trading later if they choose. It's always been at a players' discretion with how much they want to play in these time-limited farms. Rebecca mentioning burn out feedback is also a bit strange, considering how unchanged Nights of Naberus, Dog Days and Plague Star are for 4, 5, and 7 years now, respectively.

Potentially grindy events (if a player decides) have been a thing for a very long time in Warframe:

1. Operation: Gargoyle's Cry (2024) for Eidolon/Trials Arcanes, Basmu and Ceti Lacera
2. Operation: Orphix Venom (2021) for Eidolon/Trials Arcanes, Basmu and Ceti Lacera
3. Operation: Scarlet Spear (2020) for Eidolon/Trials Arcanes, Basmu and Ceti Lacera
4. Nights of Naberus (2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023) for Exodia Contagion, Exodia Epidemic, Basmu and Ceti Lacera
5. Operation: Plague Star (2017, 2018 (two appearances), 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2023) for Exodia Contagion, Exodia Epidemic, Forma, Fulmination and Sacrifice
6. Dog Days (2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023) has quite a steep grind each year that comes with negative feedback each time it returns.
7. Tactical Alert: Wolf Hunt (2019 and 2023) for Wolf Sledge
8. Hallowed Nightmares (2016, 2017, 2018) for Aura Mods
9. Tactical Alert: Project Undermine (2015) for Electric 60%/60% Status Mods 
10. Tactical Alert: Emergency Exit (2015) for 120% Slash Mods

This is just the list I can think of since I started playing in 2015 and not comprehensive.

This caveat to the event rewards concerns me for a few reasons:

Firstly, Operation: Gargoyle's Cry like any event had some exploits (namely FPS affecting Damage Attenuation) among other things. Then there was also a subset of players who were duplicating Arcane Energize (I was only made aware of this through a PSA to larger traders like myself to avoid "bad Energizes" (similar to bad Platinum). I know Rebecca wouldn't publicly address this, but I do wonder if this is a reason for capped purchases. The feeling I am getting from this announcement is the same I got when Steel Essence purchases for Kuva and Relics were capped from Teshin's Steel Path Honors (and we still see a large presence of AFK Steel Essence farming in Mot with Tenet Envoy throughout Bilibili and Eastern player circles ).

Secondly, I am concerned for future events. One of the only "end-game" things to do in this game is farm valuable items to trade. The most obvious thing to farm are time-limited items. Whether this is an unvaulted piece of Prime gear, Exodia Contagion, Basmu, large quantities of Arcane Energize, or even Sacrifice from Plague Star, players typically farm many duplicates of these to trade later and fuel their costs as players (whether that be slots, cosmetics, boosters, Forma, or more Trading/Riven Mods). This sets a rocky precedence, and I would like DE to clarify if this is just for this event, or if this is a new thing going forward.

If Events, Operations and Tactical Alerts have capped rewards purchases, this puts a massive damper on the nature of F2P for many players. Player burnout is often not within DE's responsibility to solve directly. Intervening in this capacity is unexpected to see from me (as I outlined every other event where you just farmed as you liked). 

That's all. I'm a bit bummed that we haven't had a scored Operation in several years now, and capping Arcane purchases further kills the mood for me. I hope DE gives us more transparency on this in the Devstream given Rebecca has limited time on DevShorts. I'm suspicious about this change, and I really hope this isn't the future for exclusive rewards through events. We've been seeing "capped" purchases on items for a while now in various updates, and it's becoming too normalized, entering reward structures they have no business being a part of. The game having freedom in how much you farm (within reasonable limitations) for 10 years and now retracting on year 11 is questionable.

Players have always had freedom when it comes to farming events. This is turning a new corner that doesn't benefit players to be quite honest.

Edited May 1 by Voltage

[L3512]

2 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

The #*!%ing Sibear is still 30k Cryotic, the Sporothrix and Arum Spinoza in the same situation, and who knows how many other dumb Grindy burn out inducing bullS#&$. 

Either actually fix all of that, or stop trying to look like you "Care for the Community" Like the stupid Steel Essence Cap on Kuva and Relics. 

Both Mirror defences, Conjunction Survival, and Alchemy all have rare items with low drop chances on C rotation. They are all AABC rotations and apart from alchemy, fixed times per completion.

Melee arcane adapters are 50k standing where as an amp arcane adapter, which you need significantly less of, cost 20k.

If they want to cap Arcane purchases to reduce burn out then hopefully I can buy 1 Arcane engerise per mission completion and save my time.

Edited May 1 by L3512

[L3512]

#*!% it, let's add the the Sp Circuit grind as well because rank 7 on the reward track is like the 50% of the way to rank ten. At least Kahl is now dead and player's should be grinding Cavia standing for melee arcane adapters so the weekly to-do list is a bit streamlined.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I understand it. 

Don't know how I personally feel about it beyond that, but I understand it.

Ist probably important for them to consider addressing because of potential retention issues. Like the example that she touched on loosely was IIRC 2 maxed sets of Arcane Energise right?!? Thats still a lot of grinding. Like I personally grinded what felt like a lot for Orphix Venom, and I did that with friends, clan mates, and I rounded out several Arcane sets, not enough to have been disqualified, but then again I wasn't trying to necessarily get more than plus two sets of Arcane Energise, so... to myself it really depends on the implementation. 

Like, based on that, the only people who would negatively be affected, would be people who like to sell Arcanes for Plat. If they are upset, then fair enough, but if you are grinding so hard in such events to have multiple sets of very specific and certain Arcanes, just because you rely on them for Platinum? Ehhh, I can see why DE would want to distance themselves from such behaviour and mentality. It does bring into the question around the rights and agency of a player. I have seen a few player posts/screen shots, that if not edited, pretty much imply that the player behind them have done things like 2000 PT runs, and like 5 Tridolons a day on average since their release, 

You ask most people if they have done that many, and most of them would be like definitely not, and most wouldn't want to, but many like having the perception of freedom with doing that, if they wanted... Not being limited in other words, which makes sense, just that also... Like its weird, because a lot of people are attracted to such events, as far as Arcanes, because they don't like Eidolons... and such events is one of the few alternatives to Eidolons... as in the grind for Eidolons. Someone could argue, "well if you are worried about players over grinding, why not introduce more permanent alternative ways for players to also get those Arcanes, so some might not have such a pressure and want for them in such events, and so players also don't have to grind Eidolons so hard either?" which I think is also a decent argument, but also goes back to the context of implementation, since you could argue that player is within the limitations if they can grind out 2 sets of say Arcane Energise. Why would they need more than 2? Even having 2 sets isn't needed, unless your plan is to sell them. So then the argument is that there are people grinding so hard, its less about them having an alternative way to acquire certain Arcanes only available from Eidolons, but people looking for ways to stockpile Arcane sets to make big Plat, and the allure and attraction of that is going to make them grind a lot... a lot more than they might otherwise, which may start to enter territory that might make some uncomfortable. 

DE also generally has access to data we don't always get to see )personally I wish we had more transparency in general), but I feel like such a move, would only actually address some players, but then a lot of players may be bothered just from perception alone. Which like i get, but I think some people can't put things into context well. Who is DE to say that I can't fight Profit Taker 100 times a day every day for a decade? I am going to do that to prove them wrong out of spite! You'll all see! We'll see whose laughing when I have infinite Toroids at my disposal! 

 

On 2024-04-30 at 11:48 PM, (PSN)rexis12 said:

The #*!%ing Sibear is still 30k Cryotic, the Sporothrix and Arum Spinoza in the same situation, and who knows how many other dumb Grindy burn out inducing bullS#&$. 

Either actually fix all of that, or stop trying to look like you "Care for the Community" Like the stupid Steel Essence Cap on Kuva and Relics. 

Its possibly an issue due to how data is created, recorded and made available to them. 

If they run an event like Gargoyles Cry, they are going to be able to see that there was a very small % of players that may have grinded excessively just to purchase a select item (like Arcane Energise over and over). Like hypothetically a few players that just played 16 hours a day, just to buy Arcane Energise over and over. 

Comparing that to data around Sibear is hard, because there is lack of data, as far as many players frustrated by the grind so not doing it because its frustrating to get that much Cryotic, or even just relatively, in the sense, that in terms of hours and effort? Without a resource booster or Smeeta or Relic cracking options to speed up Cryotic gain, how long would it take a person to get enough Cryotic to make a Sibear? Then lets say its something like 16 hours, which it isn't, but lets just say it is... Thats still 1 day. Also you can't sell the Sibear that way. I mean, with the Cryotic and all that, to make Plat. You ca technically gift it to people with Plat, but you probably get what I mean. Anyway, one is positive data, the other is negative data. Hard to compare. 

You won't likely (well I mean you can't) have people just grinding Sibears to sell to other people. Same with your other examples. Mater of player feedback versus internalised data. Both come with positives and negatives.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall sentiment though to be clear (and with your examples, I actually just straight up agree, those grinds suck, and should be improved, like Wolf Sledge and Stalker weapons finally are), and I myself can think of some examples that could fit better, and I am also personal critical of the SE caps on Kuva and Relics, but I can see why this would be different, especially as far as how internal data is collected and motives/intent. Like there is an argument to be made that they probably don't want too many Arcane Energises so readily available, but... considering they also rolled out an Arcane Dissolution system, to me, also indicates they might not be so precious over it, in that context. 

 

[Stormandreas]

12 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I understand it. 

Don't know how I personally feel about it beyond that, but I understand it.

Ist probably important for them to consider addressing because of potential retention issues. Like the example that she touched on loosely was IIRC 2 maxed sets of Arcane Energise right?!? Thats still a lot of grinding. Like I personally grinded what felt like a lot for Orphix Venom, and I did that with friends, clan mates, and I rounded out several Arcane sets, not enough to have been disqualified, but then again I wasn't trying to necessarily get more than plus two sets of Arcane Energise, so... to myself it really depends on the implementation. 

Like, based on that, the only people who would negatively be affected, would be people who like to sell Arcanes for Plat. If they are upset, then fair enough, but if you are grinding so hard in such events to have multiple sets of very specific and certain Arcanes, just because you rely on them for Platinum? Ehhh, I can see why DE would want to distance themselves from such behaviour and mentality. It does bring into the question around the rights and agency of a player. I have seen a few player posts/screen shots, that if not edited, pretty much imply that the player behind them have done things like 2000 PT runs, and like 5 Tridolons a day on average since their release, 

You ask most people if they have done that many, and most of them would be like definitely not, and most wouldn't want to, but many like having the perception of freedom with doing that, if they wanted... Not being limited in other words, which makes sense, just that also... Like its weird, because a lot of people are attracted to such events, as far as Arcanes, because they don't like Eidolons... and such events is one of the few alternatives to Eidolons... as in the grind for Eidolons. Someone could argue, "well if you are worried about players over grinding, why not introduce more permanent alternative ways for players to also get those Arcanes, so some might not have such a pressure and want for them in such events, and so players also don't have to grind Eidolons so hard either?" which I think is also a decent argument, but also goes back to the context of implementation, since you could argue that player is within the limitations if they can grind out 2 sets of say Arcane Energise. Why would they need more than 2? Even having 2 sets isn't needed, unless your plan is to sell them. So then the argument is that there are people grinding so hard, its less about them having an alternative way to acquire certain Arcanes only available from Eidolons, but people looking for ways to stockpile Arcane sets to make big Plat, and the allure and attraction of that is going to make them grind a lot... a lot more than they might otherwise, which may start to enter territory that might make some uncomfortable. 

DE also generally has access to data we don't always get to see )personally I wish we had more transparency in general), but I feel like such a move, would only actually address some players, but then a lot of players may be bothered just from perception alone. Which like i get, but I think some people can't put things into context well. Who is DE to say that I can't fight Profit Taker 100 times a day every day for a decade? I am going to do that to prove them wrong out of spite! You'll all see! We'll see whose laughing when I have infinite Toroids at my disposal! 

I understand they want to reduce burnout.

I don't understand why they are trying to do it in the worst possible way.

It makes no sense to flatout stop players being able to earn rewards in an TIME LIMITED EVENT. The time limit is already a cap. There's a deadline.
Adding a daily cap is also not a good idea for a time limited event either.
Rebecca said they are thinking on 2 Arcanes max. Not Arcane Energize, just Arcane (general).

The issue here is it's choking player choice and autonomy. Something that is a MASSIVE no-no in games design for games like this.
Removing player choice and action, removes the sense that the player is in control and can make their own decisions. It creates a feeling of dread and discomfort. This is why when they add alternate ways to farm certain things, it's praised, because adding player autonomy is a very good thing in an MMO.

There are exceptions ofc. They have started doing this with the ship Sumdalis. Cosmetics that can only be acquired in certain ways is fine.

Anyway, while yes, the main people this effects are those who want to grind the event. Key phrase there, want to.

If you DON'T want to grind out multiple sets, then don't.
If you DO want to grind out multiple sets, then do.

Removing that choice removes player freedom. 

The other thing this removes is the ability for players to make use of the event to stock up on items to then either give them away, help out friends/clanmates or for trading.
By limiting those who are grinding for giving items away and helping others, they are actually pushing players to the normal grind, which in and of itself, pushes players to trading.
It will absolutely have the opposite effect of what you think they are wanting.

Lets also not forget, this event will likely be inaccesible to anyone who hasn't done Whispers in the Wall, meaning that there is very likely a chunk of players who would want to participate, who can't.

I for one grinded out multiple sets of Arcanes during Gargoyles Cry to sell and giveaway to my community. I didn't do this in Scarlet Spear or Orphix Venom because I couldn't be bothered.
I farmed out 500 forma from Plague Star and I'm super grateful I did because I've already used 170 of them making and modifying builds.

Did I have to? No.
Did I WANT to. Yes.

That's the difference. Stopping burnout =/= stopping players having choice.

[ToastyGrimlock98]

17 hours ago, Voltage said:

This was my gut reaction as well. As I said in OP, you look at Nights of Naberus, Plague Star, and Dog Days staying close to the same for years, this change just seems questionable.

I don't feel that DE outright lie much, but they are professionals when it comes to damage control for sure, and they very often miss details that almost feel deliberate at times.

“Yareli is the new powerful Warframe coming out”

”We don’t want abilities that are just better versions of other abilities” *Meanwhile Octavia exists*
 

“We’re only going to nerf melee a little”

”We’re making a werewolf Warframe”

and on the damage control side. The way they handled the Heirloom pack was an atrocity. People take issue with skins being locked behind $90? Just ramp up the amount of premium currency in the pack. Because making a $30 cosmetic only pack was just unreasonable.

[NekroArts]

1 hour ago, Stormandreas said:

Rebecca said they are thinking on 2 Arcanes max. Not Arcane Energize, just Arcane (general).

At 9:38

Quote

...I think we're going to make this store "beatable" because we got some feedback and we saw people doing um a very serious amount of grinding, which is just... Sometimes we get a little shy when we're like "yeah, go grind for 30 days straight and get [Arcane]... Like it's not that we don't want you to get the Arcanes, we're going to let you get them, of course, but will you'll be able to get a hundred sets? No. It's a burnout precaution, so our intention and my um... approach uh... discussing with the team on this "is there a way we can give you the Arcanes in a event, but not have you burn yourself out and just just do it. Like I'm thinking two sets max for the store, so you can get two sets of Arcane Energize for example. That's just an honest wild card thing and that's uh... relevant to you if you are planning things out.

Disregarding the "burnout" parts, she heavily implies (if not explicitly) said that you'll only be able to get two sets of each Arcanes and not individual Arcanes in general. Even then, she seemed skeptical of that number and so am I - it's too low, it might be higher just not the "high" you and the others want.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

5 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

I understand they want to reduce burnout. I don't understand why they are trying to do it in the worst possible way.

It makes no sense to flatout stop players being able to earn rewards in an TIME LIMITED EVENT. The time limit is already a cap. There's a deadline.
Adding a daily cap is also not a good idea for a time limited event either. Rebecca said they are thinking on 2 Arcanes max. Not Arcane Energize, just Arcane (general). The issue here is it's choking player choice and autonomy. Something that is a MASSIVE no-no in games design for games like this.
Removing player choice and action, removes the sense that the player is in control and can make their own decisions. It creates a feeling of dread and discomfort. This is why when they add alternate ways to farm certain things, it's praised, because adding player autonomy is a very good thing in an MMO.

There are exceptions ofc. They have started doing this with the ship Sumdalis. Cosmetics that can only be acquired in certain ways is fine. Anyway, while yes, the main people this effects are those who want to grind the event. Key phrase there, want to. If you DON'T want to grind out multiple sets, then don't. If you DO want to grind out multiple sets, then do.

Removing that choice removes player freedom. The other thing this removes is the ability for players to make use of the event to stock up on items to then either give them away, help out friends/clanmates or for trading. By limiting those who are grinding for giving items away and helping others, they are actually pushing players to the normal grind, which in and of itself, pushes players to trading. It will absolutely have the opposite effect of what you think they are wanting.

Lets also not forget, this event will likely be inaccesible to anyone who hasn't done Whispers in the Wall, meaning that there is very likely a chunk of players who would want to participate, who can't. I for one grinded out multiple sets of Arcanes during Gargoyles Cry to sell and giveaway to my community. I didn't do this in Scarlet Spear or Orphix Venom because I couldn't be bothered. I farmed out 500 forma from Plague Star and I'm super grateful I did because I've already used 170 of them making and modifying builds. Did I have to? No. Did I WANT to. Yes. That's the difference. Stopping burnout =/= stopping players having choice.

 

I agree with a lot of your points and reasoning, the bit that I am personally unsure of, was Rebecca's framing and phrasing in the video. Like it was roughly 10 minutes into the video, and she said something like "two sets max for the store, so you can get like two sets of Arcane Energise for example", because it may very well mean she means two sets total maximum. Like if you get one set of Arcane Energise and one set of Arcane Grace, thats it, you can't get anything else. I think the conversation is different than if she means you can't get more than two sets of any one particular Arcane. 

I'd personally be much more critical of one of those implementations over the other. 

 

[Stormandreas]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

I agree with a lot of your points and reasoning, the bit that I am personally unsure of, was Rebecca's framing and phrasing in the video. Like it was roughly 10 minutes into the video, and she said something like "two sets max for the store, so you can get like two sets of Arcane Energise for example", because it may very well mean she means two sets total maximum. Like if you get one set of Arcane Energise and one set of Arcane Grace, thats it, you can't get anything else. I think the conversation is different than if she means you can't get more than two sets of any one particular Arcane. 

I'd personally be much more critical of one of those implementations over the other. 

 

Yes, she said they were wanting to do 2 sets [of one arcane] "max". This means 42 of that respective arcane max for the entire event.So, max of 42 Energize.
That would mean you can still go and buy 42 Grace, but if you don't want to purchase those and you want more energize, well, tough luck, DE says no fun allowed.

Either implementation is bad. One is of course worse than the other, but neither are good.

Both are limiting
Both chokehold players
Both is essentially telling players "Stop playing our content and do something else", which is the worst message to ever send any player.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

26 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Yes, she said they were wanting to do 2 sets [of one arcane] "max". This means 42 of that respective arcane max for the entire event.So, max of 42 Energize.
That would mean you can still go and buy 42 Grace, but if you don't want to purchase those and you want more energize, well, tough luck, DE says no fun allowed. Either implementation is bad. One is of course worse than the other, but neither are good. Both are limiting Both chokehold players Both is essentially telling players "Stop playing our content and do something else", which is the worst message to ever send any player.

 

Again sure, but like the post above mine, my interpretation of what she said isn't so conclusive. 

I understand that for you it was, and thats okay. I am not trying to insist that your interpretation is incorrect or inaccurate, just that my interpretation, that it wasn't so clear or conclusive, was different. Everything can be relative, depending on framing, and personally, I wouldn't want to waste energy speculating unless I had more conclusive information to go off.

[ominumi]

This is interesting. I'll await for the event to end just for the results on how players react to the changes. Rewards shouldn't be the only driving force so players have a means for the content. It should be the gameplay first, loot as an extra benefit.

[Stormandreas]

On 2024-05-01 at 10:02 PM, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

Again sure, but like the post above mine, my interpretation of what she said isn't so conclusive. 

I understand that for you it was, and thats okay. I am not trying to insist that your interpretation is incorrect or inaccurate, just that my interpretation, that it wasn't so clear or conclusive, was different. Everything can be relative, depending on framing, and personally, I wouldn't want to waste energy speculating unless I had more conclusive information to go off.

It doesn't matter what way either of us interpret what she said. Either outcome is bad for the event, game and players.

That I think we can agree on.

On 2024-05-01 at 10:17 PM, ominumi said:

This is interesting. I'll await for the event to end just for the results on how players react to the changes. Rewards shouldn't be the only driving force so players have a means for the content. It should be the gameplay first, loot as an extra benefit.

As altruistic as that is, that's just not what happens with games like Warframe.

Players play looter shooters to get the loot. The gameplay is a means to an end for that result. If the gameplay is good, GREAT! If it's bad, Looter Shooter players will still slog through it to get the loot, whether that's at a minimum amount or more, same principle applies.

A friend of mine set himself a goal of 1k forma during Plague star. That was his goal, and he hit it. Did he have to? No. Did he slog through it? Yes.
It's what he wanted to do, so he did just that.
Doesn't mean everyone has to, but having that option is the better scenario.

[Joezone619]

I think its a good idea... in moderation. 2 full sets, is not moderation. More like 10-15 full sets, an unrealistically high limit, so that players who farm ludicrously are capped, where as the average person who barely gets 1 set of anything can go on unaffected.

If your gonna make a change based on a niche group of players, target those niche players, not everyone.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

39 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

It doesn't matter what way either of us interpret what she said. Either outcome is bad for the event, game and players.

That I think we can agree on.

 

For me it does matter. Again, if you feel differently, thats totally fine. I am not suggesting you should have the same take or perspective as me. Do you think that rephrasing the wording will suddenly get me to change my mind, after I have stated it multiple times? 

I personally have much more sympathy for a player who might want to get their own first set of Arcanes than someone who already has every Arcane set, and is grinding the event super hard because they see it as an opportunity to grind out multiple Arcane Energise in order to sell for Plat. I still have sympathy for the latter too, and for example, your specific situation, I think having give aways and showing generosity for others is very noble and great for Warframe. Not all people that necessarily grind out multiple Arcane Energise sets just to sell for high Plat Prices. Then even with those that do, thats valid. Warframe has a lot of things that cost Platinum, people grinding stuff to trade to get themselves Platinum, its a pretty obvious interaction thats going to happen. 

I have a bit more sympathy for the former type of player though, because I think some players turn Warframe into a second job, and that influences on how they treat and deal with other players. Some can lack self control, and just become over reactive and toxic towards the games and others, because Warframe has become too addictive and routine for them to let go, even if everything about the game pisses them off. To be crystal clear and transparency, just in case, I am not implying thats you, I just know some people like that. They sort of hate the game, but just play it to earn Plat, and they treat other people who play the game horribly, unless they are friends, but they justify their bad behaviour to others, because they talk about Warframe like its a job, and they are a hard working grinder who deserves more, and its fine to rip off and scam people. The idea of playing the game as a game, for fun, is now a lost and foreign concept. Again, to be super clear, I know not all people who grind for stuff to sell, are like that. I after all sell a fair bit of Arcane Energise (single copies usually), to such players who sell them in sets, and many of them are super nice and friendly, and probably much like you, with community based give aways and prizes. Just that again, I'll have a bit more sympathy for the player who just wants to have their own set of a tool to have fun in the game, because they might not want to deal with trading with other players, so they don't have as many alternatives. 

So I agree to some extent, but there is still important and nuanced difference for me, hence why what she meant might matter more to me, and I respect your right to feel or believe differently. 

Hope that clarifies my stance for you.