Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

PublikDomain · August 21

9 hours ago, kuciol said:

You just cant balance this game, its too big for that.

Of course you can. You just don't want them to.

dwqrf · August 21

il y a 7 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

They just did it right in front of your eyes. And they're still doing it, right now!

But they are doing it much more differently that you. They take in account context, power, tier, categories, and rarity (and technicality). They aren't just doing it by popularity. Popularity is just the first stimuli pointing em that X is used too much. Is it because it's that much more powerful than the rest ? Sometime yes. Sometime no. The Ignis wraith isn't that much powerful than anything else. It's just comfortable.

Whatever you do, however you do it, some weapons are going to be on top and some other on bottom ; even if it's just about comfort ; especially in a game with a lot of categories and different tiers (mk1, normal, wraith, prisma, prime, kuva, incarnon, and such). The only way DE found to flatten the disparities between the tiers are the riven disposition.

Anyways, you cannot change usage just by stats. You can buff as much as you want semi-automatic weapons ; but if the majority of people don't like to play those in a horde shooter, they wont, you know, as they prefer AoE and chain beam. Like the Ignis or the Torid.

Grendel used to be a monster, litterally. He could eat and hold up in his belly more than 40 enemies, and then spit em out creating a aoe toxin on each enemy ; which both scaled with enemy level multiplied by numbers of enemy eaten. Most people never reach this amount of eaten enemies because of their own build limitations ; so Grendel was either too weak and useless for people that cannot build him ; or too strong for people with more ressources. So they flattened him. Is grendel fun now ? For me ; not. They destroyed the most fun part of the character (and the game) just to make sure the discrepancies between a no build and a full build weren't that big. I don't want that to happen for the whole game, just for the sake of balance.

This isn't a pvp game, balance isn't mandatory for people to have fun.

MrInubis · August 21

26 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Of course you can. You just don't want them to.

Nah, im just realistic. Would i like more weapons to be good? Sure. Is it in any way possibile to make most of them "balanced"? Hell no.

PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE · August 21

5 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Nah, im just realistic. Would i like more weapons to be good? Sure. Is it in any way possibile to make most of them "balanced"? Hell no.

Lr4 Tenno here. Agree, weapons are just skins.
All guns are balanced. Some of them are just easier to work in the hands of low mr

4thBro · August 21

14 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

This isn't a pvp game, balance isn't mandatory for people to have fun.

Finally. We sifted through 58 pages of cat litter, but we finally found an unpolished quartz!

But then, instead of deciding that an endgame will bring fun to more players, you instead decide that an endgame will actively take away from your own fun.

And this is what we've been trying to figure out for 10 novel's worth of writing.

And you'll say that you've answered it, but you haven't. You respond with fallacies, which are not valid responses. They aren't valid because they don't address the questions, often not even acknowledging them in any way at all. And so, we've been stuck in an infinite loop, where your brain is always trying to "come up with a clever response," instead of actually having the discussion. Your posts are empty, and we're stuck with the work load. We over-explain, we plug in opposing points ourselves because you won't, and we basically have been having a conversation with ourselves, trying to play both sides, just to advance the conversation and try to bring it to a conclusion. But then you come back in and say some random empty thing again, and then the whole crew backs you up, and then it feels required to try to get somewhere again.

But there's no getting anywhere. If I say 2+2=4, you say prove it.

If I say, okay go get 2 things, then another 2 things, you cut me off and say that the burden of proof is on me, and you refuse to partake in the explanation.

It's just... infinite. You always got some empty thing to say. Even when I explain why it's empty, you literally mock me for it and give me a nickname.

It's infinite.

It doesn't end.

You always got something, while somehow never having anything.

PublikDomain · August 21

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Weapon tier exist, and low tier are unused. That's normal.

It's wasteful.

And that unused content? Blandness. What flavor are you getting from a spice you never eat? It's the self-same blandness you say you don't want yet defend anyways.

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

If they do, why would anyone play a shotgun instead of a sniper rifle as the sniper will do the same damage over any distance while the shotgun will only have disavantages ?

Because you like shotguns.

Or maybe you like snipers? Who cares? I don't. You should be free to play with with what you like. That's my "perfect world". A game unbridled boring, bland metas where you can do whatever you want and not be handicapped for it. It's just an extension of the same things the developers of the game say themselves:

Quote

We want there to be lots of options instead of one ‘perfect’ option.

I want what DE says they want, just applied more broadly. All options instead of a few 'perfect' options.

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

"what's your favorite"

That is all I'm asking. And you won't answer. You balk and I think you and I both know why.

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

You cannot say you don't propose any change

Of course I can? I told you this:

On 2024-08-19 at 2:02 PM, PublikDomain said:

are you open to reconsidering this point of view that nerfs would make the game bland or take away the power fantasy? I can explain why that idea is flawed using simple math and easily-replicated examples.

And you said sure. So there is no proposed change here. I am just trying to show you why this idea that "nerfs would make the game bland or take away the power fantasy" is a flawed way of thinking. There is no proposal of changes there. We're talking about two different things at the same time - you've just got your wires crossed.

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

First, you claim people don't play with X item because it's utter garbage. Then, you claim people would still play X because they want to, even if it's garbage. So I lost you there.

Where are you lost? It is a fact that many players do not play X item because it's utter garbage. You can check this for yourself on the game's official usage stats pages: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats. And while it's true that someone, somewhere is spending some time playing with some of those garbage weapons, most players aren't. And we know this, for a fact.

What I'm then saying is that X item shouldn't be garbage. Because then people who might like it but won't play it because it's garbage will no longer have a reason to avoid it.

It's really just the same argument levied towards bad frames. Ember was "not great", and so she just got buffs. Caliban shouldn't be garbage. And so he's getting buffs. Nyx and Trinity shouldn't be useless. And so they're getting a light touch-up. We as a community are the ones demanding these adjustments. So I'm just applying that idea more broadly.

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Then, you claimed people would play a endgame even if it offer no rewards, just for the challenge of it. Then, you claim people won't grind a weapon for collection/rewards/fun/challenge of it because they already have a better gear (?????). I lost you there, again.

Yes, this is what we see. Players both play endgame content even if it offers no rewards (check any of the ingame leaderboards), and there are many who will not grind an item because they already have better gear. Even those that will grind items for the collection or the mastery still won't use that item beyond leveling it up and throwing it away, which again we can see as a fact from the official usage pages.

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

But they are stuck in a loop of "if we need to make endgame content, we need to make endgame rewards. Endgame rewards will push up even further the power creep. So we need to make harder endgame content to factor the last power upgrade. But doing so, we also need to make relevant rewards. Which only bring the power up again.... And so on." That's where they are stuck.

That is a fair assessment. Though I would like to point out, that when the idea of just not having new rewards is raised it gets pushback from you guys anyways. I'd also like to point to EDA, which adds endgame content without requiring new rewards. All of its drops also come from other locations. Having an easy, low-efficiency method and a hard, high-efficiency method is one workable approach that has already been implemented.

Edited August 21 by PublikDomain

dwqrf · August 21

il y a 6 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

You respond with fallacies

4thbro trying to get attention in a topic he can't contribute to.

RichardKam · August 21

1小时前 , PublikDomain 说:

And like, you point out that Pablo doesn't want to rework Loki. Yeah, because the game's scaling system is #*!%ed. DE's designed themselves into a corner, and you're saying "hey look DE has designed themselves into a corner", but then you won't reflect on why that has occurred or how DE could get themselves out of it? Yeah, you're proving my point!

And guess who's up for squishing next? Caliban is about to get squished up. Nyx and Trinity are getting squished up in '99. DE just stat-squished Ember up. What do you even mean they "won't do that"? They just did it right in front of your eyes. And they're still doing it, right now

No. That is not the reason why Pablo won't rework Loki, and you missed why some people worry about the Nyx and Trinity rework.

And that is why you don't understand the cons of stat squish, and why it will bring more harm than good.

PublikDomain · August 21

56 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But they are doing it much more differently that you.

Well yes, but not in the way you're suggesting. I'm not "just doing it by popularity" either. In fact, I haven't given you a single specific change. Unless you've read my thread on the topic, whatever it is you think I'm suggesting here is something you've invented.

On the topic of them doing it differently, it seems to me that DE's doing things by trying to buff their way out of their mess, and then using mechanics like Attenuation/Overguard/Gear RNG to smooth out the sharp edges. Which is one way to do it. But if you'd just pick a gif already I could continue my explanation and show you how buffs and nerfs are two sides of the same coin, and that any buff DE does could also be achieved identically with an equal and opposite nerf. Whether it's a buff or a nerf doesn't really matter to me, it's just about the practicality of it. And from my perspective, nerfs would be simpler and much more effective.

For a quick example, DE recently said this:

Quote

The Grineer are tankier by design, but the Corpus try to make the difference through their Shields. However, Corpus Effective Hit Points (EHP) are significantly lower, making them often trivial to deal with by comparison. Our goal is to reduce the discrepancy between Grineer and Corpus time-to-kill (TTK) by making Corpus Shields a bit more challenging and interesting to fight.

And so they evened out some enemy EHP scaling by doing... this:

$f_{1}(x)=1+0.015(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{2.12}$ $f_{2}(x)=1+{\frac {24{\sqrt {5}}}{5}}(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{0.72}$

$f_{1}(x)=1+0.015(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{2.12}$ $f_{2}(x)=1+{\frac {30{\sqrt {5}}}{5}}(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{0.55}$

$f_{1}(x)=1+0.0225(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{2.12}$ $f_{2}(x)=1+{\frac {36{\sqrt {5}}}{5}}(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{0.72}$

...

$f_{1}(x)=1+0.015(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{2}$ $f_{2}(x)=1+{\frac {24{\sqrt {5}}}{5}}(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{0.5}$

${{\text{Health Multiplier}}={\begin{cases}f_{1}(x),\;&x\leq 15\\(1+0.025*(x-15))*f_{1}(x),\;&15<x\leq 25\\(1.25+0.125*(x-25))*f_{1}(x),\;&25<x\leq 35\\(2.5+2/15*(x-35))*f_{1}(x),\;&35<x\leq 50\\(4.5+0.03*(x-50))*[f_{1}(x)\times (1-S_{1}(x))+f_{2}(x)\times S_{1}(x)]\;&50<x\leq 100\\6*f_{2}(x),\;&100>x\\\end{cases}}}$

...

$f_{1}(x)=1+0.0015(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{4}$ $f_{2}(x)=1+260(x-{\text{Base Level}})^{0.9}$

$T(x)={\frac {x-{\text{Base Level}}-45}{5}}$

$S_{2}(x)={\begin{cases}0,\;&x-{\text{Base Level}}<45\\3(T(x))^{2}-2(T(x))^{3},\;&45\leq x-{\text{Base Level}}\leq 50\\1,\;&x-{\text{Base Level}}>50\end{cases}}$

${\begin{aligned}{\text{Overguard Multiplier}}=[f_{1}({\text{Current Level}})\times (1-S_{2}({\text{Current Level}})]\\+[f_{2}({\text{Current Level}})\times S_{2}({\text{Current Level}})]\end{aligned}}$

And so on. The new scaling curves are an absolute mess, built on top of the mess that was the S-curve from way back when.

But if they just made armor a non-scaling enemy stat and buffed all HP and Shield coefficients they'd have achieved the same thing: armored and shielded enemies that scale more similarly. Even up to levelcap! And then we wouldn't have a dozen variations of the same formula to keep track of.

DE likes to do things in complicated ways. It gets us there, kinda, but there are simpler answers.

56 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

This isn't a pvp game, balance isn't mandatory for people to have fun.

When we've gotten so powerful we can single-handedly disrupt or take away others fun? And when the game can't support any level of challenge for us to have fun in? Yes, it has become necessary.

Balance can ensure that there is room for fun, and it can do it without needing to take away fun either.

Edited August 21 by PublikDomain

PublikDomain · August 21

38 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Sure.

Great! Then there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe give being constructive a try?

dwqrf · August 21

il y a 4 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

That is all I'm asking. And you can't even answer. You balk and stammer and I think you and I both know why.

Yes I did answer : I like the game the way it is now ; I don't need my weapons to be buffed, or nerfed, and the endgame become even more of a hassle as it is actually. It's just fine. I can accept the way the game is now. You don't.

il y a 6 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

It's wasteful.

And that unused content? Blandness.

So you are saying that new players should start the game with a Incarnon Mk99 Braton because they shouldn't see much difference of weapon power between their early gameplay and the endgame ? Where progression ? If every weapon, in every type and every categories would have the same dps ; then we won't even need enemy level between Earth and Zariman because all weapons will have the same exactly measured dps. And because of that, we can also remove all resistances and weakness to make sure all weapons have the same dps in any context. And doing that, we can also remove slash, puncture, and impact because they become irrelevant if their is no difference between armor/health/shield type. See the issue ? If we extrapolate your way of thinking, we can just get rid of any form of variety, complexity, and all go back to tetris. (Wait... Tetris pieces have different shapes, making the game unbalanced ! We should only have 1x1 square to make every piece as good as each others ! The straight bar is way too popular, nerf it !)

il y a 11 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

You should be free to play with with what you like. That's my "perfect world".

It's already the case. Or do some little green men force you to play Torid and Revenant with some mind control ?

il y a 13 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Where are you lost? It is a fact that many players do not play X item because it's utter garbage. You can check this for yourself on the game's official usage stats pages: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats. And while it's true that someone, somewhere is spending some time playing with some of those garbage weapons, most players aren't. And we know this, for a fact.

Have you personnaly tried all those weapons and frame you consider garbage ? Most of them are doing just fine. Popularity =/= Power.

il y a 14 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Yes, this is what we see. Players both play endgame content even if it offers no rewards (check any of the ingame leaderboards)

You like popularity, show me what % of the Warframe population is spamming those rewardless endgame just for fun. 0.0001% ? You don't even do it.

il y a 15 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Even those that will grind items for the collection or the mastery still won't use that item beyond leveling it up and throwing it away, which again we can see as a fact from the official usage pages.

And there is so much items you didn't even play seriously even though they were good and you know it... You cannot equip all of them at the same time. Choices have to be made, and nobody has infinite time to play everything.

il y a 18 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Though I would like to point out, that when the idea of just not having new rewards is raised it gets pushback from you guys anyways. I'd also like to point to EDA, which adds endgame content without requiring new rewards.

Full set of legendary Sanctum Arcanes were almost impossible to get before EDA (without considering month, or maybe even years of farming) ; so thankfully EDA gave us a better way to get em ; while Netracell is a good place to farm Melee adapters, and if you are really lucky, EDA drops.

dwqrf · August 21

il y a 7 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

When we've gotten so powerful we can single-handedly disrupt or take away others fun? And when the game can't support any level of challenge for us to have fun in? Yes, it has become necessary.

You can always play solo, it's possible, if you think "people shooting hordes of enemies in a horde shooter" is a issue to you ; because saying "people shouldn't be able to kill anything while shooting a horde in a horde shooter" is a really lame point of view. It make me feel you are just butthurt because you wan't to play a multiplayer game AND have a perfect 25% of the map for yourself. You strike me as the egoist digger that run out of affinity range in his own corner of a survival because "people are stealing my kills".

I'm a support main, so I never run into this issue as I spend my time buffing my squad and letting em shreds enemies. It allows them to have fun, and me, to have fun, and maybe it's not the same fun. You should try it.

And this challenge you are talking about. Any normal human spending FOUR THOUSANDS hours into one specific subject will eventually find it too easy by mastery and get bored of it. It's normal. That's not the case for people just starting it, discovering it, enjoying it. Maybe you don't remember how fun it was to be a noob, and to discover strong items and to be disapointed by bad items ; only to realize later it was just a wrong build or wrong context all along.

Go out. Smell some grass, eat some flowers, and maybe you'll realize that Warframe can be appreciated as it is without the need of changing (balancing??) every-single-thing into something that it is not.

4thBro · August 21

So should the game never get updates unless it's adding content?

Edited August 21 by 4thBro

MrInubis · August 21

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Great! Then there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe give being constructive a try?

Dude, your way of thinking is shallow AF. Thats the problem here. You got constructive problems presented to you on silver plater but you decided to ignore them and post some stupid irrelevant chart. That chart shows only what you want, doesnt answer how and i gave you legitimate problem.

You have a balanced weapon, you give that weapon to Chroma, this player has Rhino in party and sentinel thats priming. Suddenly this weapon does 10 times more dmg. Is this balanced? Than you give the same gun to Ember, she cant kill anything with it because its balanced around Chroma. See the problem? How can you solve it? I cant be any clearer than that.

Edited August 21 by kuciol

Rexis12 · August 21

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You guys also like to parrot this "guns would just be skins" thing, but what do you even mean by that? Just look at the top most popular primaries and tell me:

Is Naratuk """just a skin""" of the Ignis Wraith?

Is the Tenet Envoy """just a skin""" of the Acceltra?

Is the Shedu """just a skin""" of the Cedo?

I'm honestly confused why, for your example, you decided to chose to pick weapons that are clearly of different types and comparing them to each other.

The idea of 'Weapons being just skins' couldn't be more obvious that it would be for weapons of similar types like AR to AR and Shotguns to Shotguns.

You could've easily picked Felarx and Cedo to compare, but instead tried to compared the Shedu and Cedo?

Like I'm confused, did you purposely pick weapons of completely different gameplay styles and tried to compare them together instead of similar weapoms and how stat squishes would make them 'skins' in how their damage and functions wouldn't matter.

4thBro · August 21

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

Dude, your way of thinking is shallow AF. Thats the problem here. You got constructive problems presented to you on silver plater but you decided to ignore them and post some stupid irrelevant chart. That chart shows only what you want, doesnt answer how and i gave you legitimate problem.

You have a balanced weapon, you give that weapon to Chroma, this player has Rhino in party and sentinel thats priming. Suddenly this weapon does 10 more dmg. Is this balanced? Than you give the same gun to Ember, she cant kill anything with it because ita balanced around Chroma. See the problem? How can you solve it? I cant be any clearer than that.

By balancing the frames. He already said that a million times.

MrInubis · August 21

3 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

By balancing the frames. He already said that a million times.

But frames are vastly different and cant be balanced. Loki will never do as much dmg as Saryn, its not his thing. Do you want to destroy frames identity? What about arcanes? Should we balance around people having them? Many players dont. You dont even try to think about it.

Edited August 21 by kuciol

dwqrf · August 21

il y a 6 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

So should the game never get updates unless it's adding content?

il y a 5 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

By balancing the frames. He already said that a million times.

4thbro desperatly trying to get attention in a topic he can't contribute to.

Ambrosia_Rev · August 21

Players cried at the slight difficulty of Effervo secret boss, Archons, Netra Cells and then Deep Archimedia.
Then devs nerfed all of them.

I mean its self wrought at this point.

ShogunGunshow · August 21

Balancing the game at this point is like barreling out an ocean with a sieve. There's a solid decade of poorly thought out power creep, and every time they do do nerfs, they usually follow it up by something that power creeps even harder (See: nerfing AoE weapons to immediately follow it up with incarnons which make pre-nerf kuva zarr and bramma look like jokes).

The way bosses work with attenuated damage and some ridiculous debuffs to the player is pretty much the best they can do.

4thBro · August 21

29 minutes ago, kuciol said:

32 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

By balancing the frames. He already said that a million times.

But frames are vastly different and cant be balanced

Why not? What is this based off of?

29 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Loki will never do as much dmg as Saryn, its not his thing

Patch:

While invisible, Loki gains +10,000% faction damage.

There. Now he does more damage than Saryn. Crazy how easy that was.

32 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Do you want to destroy frames identity?

Loki still goes invisi. Identity maintained. Saryn still does poison stuff. Identity maintained.

32 minutes ago, kuciol said:

What about arcanes? Should we balance around people having them?

Yes. Why would you not? That's like asking if we should balance around day 1 players.

You obviously balance around having the things. That's why you want to get the things in the first place.

New players won't suffer because Earth missions aren't designed like you have Galv mods and incarn guns, lol. I have no idea where you thought that argument point would go.

22 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Balancing the game at this point is like barreling out an ocean with a sieve. There's a solid decade of poorly thought out power creep, and every time they do do nerfs, they usually follow it up by something that power creeps even harder (See: nerfing AoE weapons to immediately follow it up with incarnons which make pre-nerf kuva zarr and bramma look like jokes).

The way bosses work with attenuated damage and some ridiculous debuffs to the player is pretty much the best they can do.

This is so very accurate. Unfortunately.

I'm certainly not pretending it would be an easy task.

But I entirely believe that it would be an important and worthwhile task.

dwqrf · August 21

il y a 2 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

Why not? What is this based off of?

Patch:

While invisible, Loki gains +10,000% faction damage.

There. Now he does more damage than Saryn. Crazy how easy that was.

MrInubis · August 21

11 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Why not? What is this based off of?

Their powers? If you can give me an example how to balance Limbo vs Gyre vs Caliban without making them the same with different tint you can prove me wrong.

14 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

While invisible, Loki gains +10,000% faction damage.

So make him a better buffer is your answer? Dont be silly.

MrInubis · August 21

17 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Yes. Why would you not? That's like asking if we should balance around day 1 players.

You obviously balance around having the things. That's why you want to get the things in the first place.

New players won't suffer because Earth missions aren't designed like you have Galv mods and incarn guns, lol. I have no idea where you thought that argument point would go.

So its pointless to play when you dont want to waste a months just on Eidolons to get that energize, great.

4thBro · August 21

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Their powers?

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

So make him a better buffer is your answer? Dont be silly

The fact that you're not understanding the point I'm making with that, and are nitpicking my obviously exaggerated joke about 10k faction damage, is the most concise summary of this entire thread that i could possibly imagine.

Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

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