Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[4thBro]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

And you are both trying to change Warframe into some exact copy of a product that they made.

 

There is a reason that I tell you what fallacies you're using.

It isn't for my own entertainment or health.

QUITE on the contrary, I am neither entertained by doing so, nor is it very good for my mental health because you legitimately do not understand the importance of fallacies.

 

But what this fallacy means in this context is...

You are assuming that [adding endgame to Warframe] will somehow completely warp the game into something else, which requires VERY MANY extra steps be taken, or VERY MANY extra dots be connected, and none of which are being suggested by any of us.

And, if we're being honest... it's baffling that you think adding an endgame to WF would be more game-changing than when they added Archwings or Railjacks.

HELL, WHAT ABOUT OPERATOR?

Not only did that put in something in the game that now exists for EVERY MISSION, but it even DRASTICALLY changed the perceived lore of the Frames you have been playing the whole time!!

 

This game is NOTHING BUT crazy new insane additions being added into it. And YOU, Mr. I Love Warframe So Much Just The Way It Is, apparently love all of those crazy new insane additions.

So why can't an endgame just be another great new thing on the list?????

[MrInubis]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And again, I did. I presented five reasons why the current system is problematic, ranging from the major (instilling bad habits, confusion and disappointment in new players) to the minor (it's annoying for vets sometimes).

They are factually incorrect. How many topics did you see about this being a problem? Did you see anyone complaining on chat? I didnt. Just because you think it is like that doesnt make it true.

 

6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So what the devs say is what a Warframe is supposed to do/be is unquestionable truth if it's in a devstream or in an out-of-game marketing release, but what they write in the game itself is completely vapid marketing nonsense.

Sure, that makes sense.

But it is like that. Skill descriptions are made with flavour in mind. What devs say outside of game is without sugercoating.

 

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So... why are you now against the idea of adding another avenue for players to do this?

Because you will have to rebalance everything, you said it yourself.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

They are factually incorrect. How many topics did you see about this being a problem? Did you see anyone complaining on chat? I didnt. Just because you think it is like that doesnt make it true.

That's an anecdotal claim that you, personally, haven't seen any complaints. But that isn't evidence that it is or isn't a problem - it's just evidence (anecodtal, flimsy evidence) that people aren't talking about it.

It's pretty evident that you can't actually argue against my points, or even come up with a reason why the current system is good past 'that's how the game currently is'. Because if you could, we would be having that debate.

6 minutes ago, kuciol said:

But it is like that. Skill descriptions are made with flavour in mind. What devs say outside of game is without sugercoating.

Except devstreams are also marketing. It's a way to produce engagement between the playerbase and the people developing the game, which is marketing.

Like, they're not gonna go on stream and say "Hey guys we made this new Warframe. Here's his 4, it sucks!" There is innately a sugar-coating to everything DE does that's public-facing.

9 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Because you will have to rebalance everything, you said it yourself.

And I, and evidently others, think it'll be worth it in the long run. DE has done it before, changing more things even (such as Melee 3.0 or Shrine of the Eidolon, both updates hitting literally hundreds of items apiece, and the recent Jade Shadow's damage type rebalance which affected literally the entire game), and it's likely they'll do it again.

[4thBro]

Soooooo, a lot of posts were deleted earlier, and among them were the ones where I tried to keep the discussion point focused on individual remarks that were going by unaddressed.

 

I'm not really sure why those, and other posts, were removed.

But can we go back to that?

We still got a lot of remarks that need some accountability. These guys want to make a lot of wild claims all at once, because a lot of them get lost in the chaos. But if we can unanimously focus on certain things, and power through their 10+ redirection attempts, they will either finally address each point with a direct response, or they will bow out of the conversation without ever claiming responsibility for whatever strawman remark they've made (or whatever other fallacy we decide to focus on).

 

The truth is that you guys are being WAY too patient and nice to a group of people that are CLEARLY not holding an honest discussion. You're still trying to play it slow, and guide them through little hoops one at a time. But, my guys - that's just not going to do it. They take advantage of patience and honesty. They refuse to go through the simplest of hoops. How much longer are you going to try it your way?

You have to cut through the BS with a firm knife. Repeat the question over and over if necessary. Do not let them sow more chaos, do not let them redirect the conversation deeper into the Lost Woods.

Cut through it.

It's the only way to get anywhere.

[RichardKam]

2小时前 , PublikDomain 说:

That's... how surveys work? You survey a subset of a population. Like...?

And ofc when presented with any sort of data whatsoever the immediate response from people with this mindset is to attack the source. It's not good enough, it's not real, well I didn't respond to it, etc. instead of presenting data of your own data or admitting that the idea that "most players only play for 100h" is just plain dumb. Ingame profile stats say I've played for 4,149. They say you've played for 5,186. Loza for 3,243. Kuciol and 4th for "only" 1,352 and 1,305 respectively. Virtus for 3,594, Tiltskillet for 4,624, Zimzala for 1,149. OP for 1,655. Noticing a pattern? And that's just what, mission time?

Sorry dude. You using forum user stat as a playbtime statistic is a perfect example of sampling bias, because, at the very least, most players don't even use the official forum. They use discord, twitter, reddit, or none at all. Why? Because even DE don't pay attention to the official forum.

The only reliable survey is in-game survey, which we don't have access to. But DE do.

And regardless of survey this, survey that, the game is always balanced around normal star chart, not SP star chart.

[MrInubis]

9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That's an anecdotal claim that you, personally, haven't seen any complaints. But that isn't evidence that it is or isn't a problem - it's just evidence (anecodtal, flimsy evidence) that people aren't talking about it.

It's pretty evident that you can't actually argue against my points, or even come up with a reason why the current system is good past 'that's how the game currently is'. Because if you could, we would be having that debate

Your points are made with 1 simple flaw that makes them irrelevant. You act like skill suddenly stops working as dmg dealing and is suddenly forced into his secondary role. Thats completely not how it is. Its very slow gradual process. You dont jump to next mission and realize "hey my 1 doesnt kill anything" . That transition takes many hours. Anything else is just your opinions not facts. I cant argue something that is just wrong and based only on how you think it is. You didnt provide a single evidence to back your points up. You made statements, the burden of proof is on you.

 

13 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And I, and evidently others, think it'll be worth it in the long run. DE has done it before, changing more things even (such as Melee 3.0 or Shrine of the Eidolon, both updates hitting literally hundreds of items apiece, and the recent Jade Shadow's damage type rebalance which affected literally the entire game), and it's likely they'll do it again.

All others, man there is 2 of you. Everything DE has done so far is the opposite of what you want.

 

14 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

That's an anecdotal claim that you, personally, haven't seen any complaints. But that isn't evidence that it is or isn't a problem - it's just evidence (anecodtal, flimsy evidence) that people aren't talking about it.

I know they are but how things are said is not affected by lore and "cool" factor. Every single game out there that has abilities has this overblown descriptions. Maybe the game should be as shown in prime trailers? Same thing you are so hard stuck on. It is colorized, thats how it always was. 

[4thBro]

10 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Sorry dude. You using forum user stat as a playbtime statistic is a perfect example of sampling bias, because, at the very least, most players don't even use the official forum. They use discord, twitter, reddit, or none at all. Why? Because even DE don't pay attention to the official forum.

The only reliable survey is in-game survey, which we don't have access to. But DE do.

And regardless of survey this, survey that, the game is always balanced around normal star chart, not SP star chart.

Do you have any idea how many weapons can sweep through the regular star chart completely unmodded?

Is that your idea of being balanced around it???

 

Also, if you're going to "rely on in-game information" above all else...

No, we do not have access to the in-game surveys. But I have ALREADY made a post somewhere regarding the general in-game population's statistics.

 

Ahh. It was not in this thread, but it WAS in a response to Kuci.

 

[4thBro]

6 minutes ago, kuciol said:

All others, man there is 2 of you. Everything DE has done so far is the opposite of what you want.

Bro there are SIX PEOPLE IN THIS WHOLE THREAD LOL!

And it's literally a 3/3 divide.

 

It's so crazy that, even just with SIX people, you take the half that ISN'T your half, and you use it to be like, "You don't have any support!"

We can LITERALLY take YOUR half, and it's the SAME NUMBER, and say the same thing. But by the time we do that, you've already gone off on the next WILD statement, constantly moving the train along the tracks, never stopping at any particular wild statement. We don't do that here. We don't stop and analyze anything. We move on to the next thing!!

Constant wild statements, with no repercussions whatsoever!! HELL YEAH!! CHOO CHOO, MOTHER ****ER!!

 

 

 

 

*tosses hands into the air*

You guys still gonna play this nice & patient??? There's no way you're not running on fumes by now.

[PublikDomain]

11 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

And regardless of survey this, survey that, the game is always balanced around normal star chart, not SP star chart.

Ok and the starchart goes up to lvl60 at the moment. And you'd have to Soul Punch a lvl60 Rogue Culvern 105 times to kill it. Here's what that looks like, lol:

"It's balanced for the starchart!"

🙄

"No, no, no! It's only supposed to be used for the feature that it didn't even have for 7 years!"

🤦‍♀️

[RichardKam]

2小时前 , PublikDomain 说:

Ok and the starchart goes up to lvl60 at the moment. And you'd have to Soul Punch a lvl60 Rogue Culvern 105 times to kill it. Here's what that looks like, lol:

"It's balanced for the starchart!"

🙄

"No, no, no! It's only supposed to be used for the feature that it didn't even have for 7 years!"

🤦‍♀️

I won't argue with you because both of us know it is not about soul punch and even if DE push soul punch damage to 100x, you will still make complains.

I also won't argue with you because the entire premise of "balancing damaging abilities" is far more complicated and unrealistic than your imagination or pretend to be, because you either don't understand this game at all, or you are just trolling. Otherwise you would have a clear and logical response to "fix" abilities that scale with mod strength (most of them), abilities that scale with enemy health (Oberon), abilities that scale with another ability (Revenant), abilities that scale with enemy density (Qorvex, Voruna), abilities that scale with weapon mods (all exalted weapon), abilities that scale with strength and your other damage output (Wisp), abilities that deal damage but also have other utilities (Loki, Nyx), abilities that scale with how you control the projectile (Ivara), abilities that deal damage based on your other abilities (Dagath). Not to mention there are abilities that amplify ability damage (Rhino). I can go on and on, and I even have not talked about focus, companion, arcanes which are an integral part of the game, but that will be pointless because you cannot answer even one. Soul punch just sucks, ok? See this clip?

So when you talk about damaging abilities should be able to kill stuff, no one knows what the f you are talking about. People can kill stuff already, and people know what they can do and cannot do.

But I am not going to argue with you because you are not looking for truth, even though you pretend to be, you are looking for winning. So even if you say 1+1=5, I am sure you are right. Have fun.

Edited August 31 by RichardKam

[dwqrf]

Il y a 4 heures, Loza03 a dit :

It's pretty evident that you can't actually argue against my points, or even come up with a reason why the current system is good past 'that's how the game currently is'. Because if you could, we would be having that debate.

Well, if we would compare the game with let's say, a really famous worldwide fast food restaurant, and I would say "there is proof that they do something well -because- they're are succesful worldwide" and you would argue that they would do better if they changed things -because you think so- ; of course I will have a hard time believing you and only you, compared to the mountain of facts that this restaurant works already well, and that you have no proof your ideas would make it better (but me, I went to another restaurant that features your ideas -that you refuse to eat to-, and like many others, I didn't like it in the end). It's hard to explain to you what Warframe does well because.. there is just too many things.

Sometimes the direction of this chain could try somethings, like changing or adding one more item on the menu, the color of their logo, or some ways to function or work in some specific country. And if it seems to work well for the customers -there- they may extend this to the rest of the chain. Or not.

 

For example, you claim that Caliban's 4 doesn't do enough damage to be relevant in endgame ; i'm saying it's meant to be good -damage wise- in regular star chart, without outside multiplier, because the context in which you use it matter. Because if you want to do damage later, the context to make it powerful become harder to set up than just using it as a great tool to compliment your weapons, the rest or your kit (or you allies). But in a build with 300% power, which isn't hard to reach with a couple of mods, the 20k becomes 60k, and when factoring the second spell, you reach 120k. Because enemies are already walking through the previous fallout, they have no armor. More than that, you already primed viral x10, so you are already at 480k damage. Slap a Roar on it for 900k~ damage. How many HP have level 9999 enemies ? 350k~ ? How does that -not- work ? The context isn't that hard to set up to find value in the damage portion of the spell, it's just more tedious that just 4+left click.

Edited August 31 by dwqrf

[MrInubis]

6 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Bro there are SIX PEOPLE IN THIS WHOLE THREAD LOL!

And it's literally a 3/3 divide.

 

It's so crazy that, even just with SIX people, you take the half that ISN'T your half, and you use it to be like, "You don't have any support!"

We can LITERALLY take YOUR half, and it's the SAME NUMBER, and say the same thing. But by the time we do that, you've already gone off on the next WILD statement, constantly moving the train along the tracks, never stopping at any particular wild statement. We don't do that here. We don't stop and analyze anything. We move on to the next thing!!

Constant wild statements, with no repercussions whatsoever!! HELL YEAH!! CHOO CHOO, MOTHER ****ER!!

 

 

 

 

*tosses hands into the air*

You guys still gonna play this nice & patient??? There's no way you're not running on fumes by now.

That just shows how worthless all those "poles" are. If the game was as bad or as confusing as you try to make it there would be a lot of people here. Players tend to be vocal when they dont like something. When they are fine with it they usually just play. Im not emotional about no names from internet sorry. No fuming on my part.

Edited August 31 by kuciol

[MrInubis]

6 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Ok and the starchart goes up to lvl60 at the moment. And you'd have to Soul Punch a lvl60 Rogue Culvern 105 times to kill it. Here's what that looks like, lol:

So what? It kills anyting with 25% or less life and marks it. Why should ability that has utility be anywhere close to ability without it? Its execute move, not dps one. Dont even start with "it didnt in late Devonian". DE changed it to current version, not dps. Guess why? Because thats how they want it to be.

Edited August 31 by kuciol

[dwqrf]

il y a 49 minutes, kuciol a dit :

So what? It kills anyting with 25% or less life and marks it. Why should ability that has utility be anywhere close to ability without it? Its execute move, not dps one.

And to be honest, a level 60 Culvern is far beyond the normal star chart, which stop at Sedna/Eris with level 30-40. Anything beyond that is mid-game (before endgame), and expect you more combo of tools to be working. Culvern are only met after the New War and Whispers in the walls, which require a lot of farm for Necramech, Railjack, and surely then, engaging with complexity to succeed. And the new War is te best example of : "you need to combine all the tools given to you, or else, you'll fail".

Edited August 31 by dwqrf

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, kuciol said:

Your points are made with 1 simple flaw that makes them irrelevant. You act like skill suddenly stops working as dmg dealing and is suddenly forced into his secondary role. Thats completely not how it is. Its very slow gradual process. You dont jump to next mission and realize "hey my 1 doesnt kill anything" . That transition takes many hours. Anything else is just your opinions not facts. I cant argue something that is just wrong and based only on how you think it is. You didnt provide a single evidence to back your points up. You made statements, the burden of proof is on you.

 

The term you're looking for is 'break points'. Whilst technically yes a skill that can kill will do less and less and less and less overkill, experientially (especially for skills that aren't doing absolutely worthless quantities of damage, like 200), experientially the point that matters is when you hit the ability key and suddenly it doesn't kill anymore. A 'Break Point' is basically the point where a numerical change makes a big difference. Often this is talked about in terms of damage - in games with small numbers of hits to kill, a break point is the amount of damage that tips damage up or down a hit to kill. Even if damage was going up gradually before then, it experientially makes no difference since the player was calculating it in number of hits required.

And yes, there are break points for Warframe powers. For Shock, that break point is Venus - where against Corpus their 1 no longer kills, and in Mercury, it no longer kills the same Grineer it did before. For Caliban's 4, this break point is Sedna and T4 void, and it's a much bigger break point because up to now his big, expensive, 4th ability was a badass power that killed Lancers (the most common Grineer enemy type) in a wide cone. Now it only kills them in a small sweet spot, because now the level is 30 at base and Elite Lancers now have over 5,000 HP. And by the end of Sedna, it won't even do that. Caliban's 4 didn't suddenly change - this was an inevitable, very gradual process, taking place over several hours. But that's all happening behind the scenes

This is assuming, yes, that they aren't modding for power strength or corrosive projection - there's too many variables to account for exactly when the break point happens for even one ability, let alone all of them. This fact is verifiable in game. DE might smooth the numbers a bit (like if an enemy is left with 1 hp the game kills it anyway) but that'd changes things by a single level apiece.

 

8 hours ago, kuciol said:

All others, man there is 2 of you. Everything DE has done so far is the opposite of what you want.

I mean no.

I was one of the people asking for a damage 3.0, citing several of the issues that DE openly chose to address. I'm one of the people asking for enemies that don't literally have the same silhouette and poor communication of damage, Whispers in the Walls came along and every enemy has a clear mechanical role and massively distinct silhouette. Hell, even just the existence of the 'ability damage' Archon Shards suggests that the architecture to be able to change the damage of abilities is there and DE have considered it a potential avenue to mod.

9 hours ago, kuciol said:

I know they are but how things are said is not affected by lore and "cool" factor. Every single game out there that has abilities has this overblown descriptions. Maybe the game should be as shown in prime trailers? Same thing you are so hard stuck on. It is colorized, thats how it always was. 

I'm not talking about lore, I'm not talking about item descriptions, I'm not even talking about what the devs decided to say in a devstream once.

I'm saying that if you shoot a laser beam, or a bolt of lightning, or a fireball, or punch someone's soul out of their body, or throw razor sharp gems at someone, or hit someone with a spear, or smite them with radioactive power, or run someone over at mach speeds, or breath fire at them like a dragon or throw a literal seismic event at them... One would reasonably anticipate that to do meaningful damage (and this isn't even an exhaustive list).

I'm not even asking for all these abilities to do as much damage as weapons are expected to, or that they're all as available as weapons. They all have different parameters, and some some definitely have a primary purpose that isn't damage or at least a second purpose that is as meaningful (Mach Rush, Axios Javelin and Fractured Blast from the above list) that would kind of necessitate them doing less damage for balancing reasons. Others like Sound Quake have other issues that'd need to be addressed in the process to avoid them becoming over-dominant, though by now their either in the minority or function well enough without a rework that they could get passed over.

But for goodness sake, why is it so controversial to suggest that stabbing someone with a spear of razor-sharp glass should probably hurt?

[Alpha_Tango]

I am more surprised DE keep dishing out easy content to please its mediocre playerbase without being overworked and always pressed to flesh out new ideas. Releases being gobbled up in less than a week is a vicious cycle that is unhealthy and it shows. The quality of recent iterations are subpar. This is why an overly easy WF gameplay is holding it back.

[dwqrf]

il y a 21 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

The term you're looking for is 'break points'. Whilst technically yes a skill that can kill will do less and less and less and less overkill, experientially (especially for skills that aren't doing absolutely worthless quantities of damage, like 200), experientially the point that matters is when you hit the ability key and suddenly it doesn't kill anymore. A 'Break Point' is basically the point where a numerical change makes a big difference. Often this is talked about in terms of damage - in games with small numbers of hits to kill, a break point is the amount of damage that tips damage up or down a hit to kill. Even if damage was going up gradually before then, it experientially makes no difference since the player was calculating it in number of hits required.

And yes, there are break points for Warframe powers. For Shock, that break point is Venus - where against Corpus their 1 no longer kills, and in Mercury, it no longer kills the same Grineer it did before. For Caliban's 4, this break point is Sedna and T4 void, and it's a much bigger break point because up to now his big, expensive, 4th ability was a badass power that killed Lancers (the most common Grineer enemy type) in a wide cone. Now it only kills them in a small sweet spot, because now the level is 30 at base and Elite Lancers now have over 5,000 HP. And by the end of Sedna, it won't even do that. Caliban's 4 didn't suddenly change - this was an inevitable, very gradual process, taking place over several hours. But that's all happening behind the scenes

This is assuming, yes, that they aren't modding for power strength or corrosive projection - there's too many variables to account for exactly when the break point happens for even one ability, let alone all of them. This fact is verifiable in game. DE might smooth the numbers a bit (like if an enemy is left with 1 hp the game kills it anyway) but that'd changes things by a single level apiece.

 

I mean no.

I was one of the people asking for a damage 3.0, citing several of the issues that DE openly chose to address. I'm one of the people asking for enemies that don't literally have the same silhouette and poor communication of damage, Whispers in the Walls came along and every enemy has a clear mechanical role and massively distinct silhouette. Hell, even just the existence of the 'ability damage' Archon Shards suggests that the architecture to be able to change the damage of abilities is there and DE have considered it a potential avenue to mod.

I'm not talking about lore, I'm not talking about item descriptions, I'm not even talking about what the devs decided to say in a devstream once.

I'm saying that if you shoot a laser beam, or a bolt of lightning, or a fireball, or punch someone's soul out of their body, or throw razor sharp gems at someone, or hit someone with a spear, or smite them with radioactive power, or run someone over at mach speeds, or breath fire at them like a dragon or throw a literal seismic event at them... One would reasonably anticipate that to do meaningful damage (and this isn't even an exhaustive list).

I'm not even asking for all these abilities to do as much damage as weapons are expected to, or that they're all as available as weapons. They all have different parameters, and some some definitely have a primary purpose that isn't damage or at least a second purpose that is as meaningful (Mach Rush, Axios Javelin and Fractured Blast from the above list) that would kind of necessitate them doing less damage for balancing reasons. Others like Sound Quake have other issues that'd need to be addressed in the process to avoid them becoming over-dominant, though by now their either in the minority or function well enough without a rework that they could get passed over.

But for goodness sake, why is it so controversial to suggest that stabbing someone with a spear of razor-sharp glass should probably hurt?

Remember that ability have level, and they do more damage as you progress the star chart too.

Also, one could assume "why do Space Magic limited to energy, a valuable ressource, while you could just... Shoot them with bullets ? Bullets, rockets, flames, and others thrown blades -do- hurt.

But it's a video game, and sometimes while -anything- can kill a unarmored foe, it's going to struggle against a plated tank... Players understand that, and as we can't literaly meet tanks randomly, we can see tankier enemies with higher level.

-

And I was also one players fighting tooth and nails for the devs NOT to add a -bronze- path between normal star chart and actual Steel path, claiming it would only be a dead zone without any players because either Steel path was going to be the only challening end game worth playing, or it would become a baseline for farm if they added higher rewards there. People hated my point of view then, and guess what, I wasn't wrong.

 

[Loza03]

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Well, if we would compare the game with let's say, a really famous worldwide fast food restaurant, and I would say "there is proof that they do something well -because- they're are succesful worldwide" and you would argue that they would do better if they changed things -because you think so- ; of course I will have a hard time believing you and only you, compared to the mountain of facts that this restaurant works already well, and that you have no proof your ideas would make it better (but me, I went to another restaurant that features your ideas -that you refuse to eat to-, and like many others, I didn't like it in the end). It's hard to explain to you what Warframe does well because.. there is just too many things.

Sometimes the direction of this chain could try somethings, like changing or adding one more item on the menu, the color of their logo, or some ways to function or work in some specific country. And if it seems to work well for the customers -there- they may extend this to the rest of the chain. Or not.

And sometimes Starbucks decides to put Olive Oil in the coffee, and Costa decides to advertise 'Hot Milkshakes' and everyone notes that it's an absolutely ludicrious idea but they charge ahead anyway. And sometimes they're owned by a supercorporation that doesn't care for game design good coffee and will axe it the picosecond it doesn't make them a morbillion dollars a minute.

Stop shilling TFD.

 

5 hours ago, dwqrf said:

For example, you claim that Caliban's 4 doesn't do enough damage to be relevant in endgame ; i'm saying it's meant to be good -damage wise- in regular star chart, without outside multiplier, because the context in which you use it matter. Because if you want to do damage later, the context to make it powerful become harder to set up than just using it as a great tool to compliment your weapons, the rest or your kit (or you allies). But in a build with 300% power, which isn't hard to reach with a couple of mods, the 20k becomes 60k, and when factoring the second spell, you reach 120k. Because enemies are already walking through the previous fallout, they have no armor. More than that, you already primed viral x10, so you are already at 480k damage. Slap a Roar on it for 900k~ damage. How many HP have level 9999 enemies ? 350k~ ? How does that -not- work ? The context isn't that hard to set up to find value in the damage portion of the spell, it's just more tedious that just 4+left click.

This hyper-specific build where every enemy has has a thorough setup with a full armour strip and 10 stacks of viral and min-maxing for strength and roar would kill most enemies even on the steel path, yes. But also the context in which you're bringing up them having full armour strip is that they've already been hit by this attack once and it failed to kill them. And it requires you to tank your ability efficiency on a power that even with primed flow will eat your entire energy reserves in just five casts.

 

[dwqrf]

il y a 29 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

And sometimes Starbucks decides to put Olive Oil in the coffee, and Costa decides to advertise 'Hot Milkshakes' and everyone notes that it's an absolutely ludicrious idea but they charge ahead anyway. And sometimes they're owned by a supercorporation that doesn't care for game design good coffee and will axe it the picosecond it doesn't make them a morbillion dollars a minute.

Stop shilling TFD.

 

This hyper-specific build where every enemy has has a thorough setup with a full armour strip and 10 stacks of viral and min-maxing for strength and roar would kill most enemies even on the steel path, yes. But also the context in which you're bringing up them having full armour strip is that they've already been hit by this attack once and it failed to kill them. And it requires you to tank your ability efficiency on a power that even with primed flow will eat your entire energy reserves in just five casts.

 

That'd just wrong. Caliban's 4 is a lingering defense strip. You can cover two or three doors of anyroom for a 30+s duration without spamming it. It's called spell rotation, and every frames should do that accordingly. Like you don't recast Vex armor every seconds, but before it ends.

And any energy generation like energy Nexus + zenurik + nourish makes primed flow quite useless, why bother having 700 energy if you gain 20/s allowing your rotation ?

[4thBro]

1 hour ago, Alpha_Tango said:

I am more surprised DE keep dishing out easy content to please its mediocre playerbase without being overworked and always pressed to flesh out new ideas. Releases being gobbled up in less than a week is a vicious cycle that is unhealthy and it shows. The quality of recent iterations are subpar. This is why an overly easy WF gameplay is holding it back.

Correct. Content quotas are extremely bad for game design. Warframe used to be a game that made stuff based on the devs having a passion for those new things.

 

When you put quotas and schedules on continuously pumping out new stuff, it makes these things not have the passion anymore. It's just some big corporate guy seeing the stats on the PASSIONATE content releases, saying, "wow those content patches do very well, let's do more of them!"

 

8 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I won't argue with you because both of us know it is not about soul punch and even if DE push soul punch damage to 100x, you will still make complains.

Interesting. But when I get asked what a perfect endgame looks like, I say, "I won't respond to that, because you will still nitpick all of its details."

So YOU'RE allowed to say that, just not ME. Is that right?

Because you're the main character?

 

(Also, it is not lost on me that you missed the fact that Soul Punch COULD INDEED deal 100x damage and it still would deal pitiful damage. That was the entire point being made.)

 

8 hours ago, RichardKam said:

But I am not going to argue with you because you are not looking for truth, even though you pretend to be, you are looking for winning. So even if you say 1+1=5, I am sure you are right. Have fun.

What are YOU here for???

Let's ask you that. Directly.

 

We want an endgame.

You... don't, I assume?

 

So we want a color blind mode. You aren't color blind, so you don't want DE to add it.

Is this a proper representation of your stance here? If not, please explain why it's not, Mr. Truthseeker. Let's see what you got.

 

5 hours ago, kuciol said:

That just shows how worthless all those "poles" are.

The polls that YOU brought up??????????????

Bro, you just circled around and ended up telling on yourself. That's how contrarian you're being. I didn't even MEAN to do this, but I just herded you like a sheep into the stables. You were trying so hard to move in the opposite direction of me that you ended up saying that your own point is wrong.

 

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CRAZYYYYYYYY!!!! LOLLLLL

 

5 hours ago, kuciol said:

If the game was as bad or as confusing as you try to make it there would be a lot of people here. Players tend to be vocal when they dont like something. When they are fine with it they usually just play. Im not emotional about no names from internet sorry. No fuming on my part.

-But, please, show me where I said those things. You have a LOT of straw man arguments to account for. You keep slipping by, avoiding having to explain them.

Edited August 31 by 4thBro

[dwqrf]

il y a 57 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

And sometimes Starbucks decides to put Olive Oil in the coffee, and Costa decides to advertise 'Hot Milkshakes' and everyone notes that it's an absolutely ludicrious idea but they charge ahead anyway. And sometimes they're owned by a supercorporation that doesn't care for game design good coffee and will axe it the picosecond it doesn't make them a morbillion dollars a minute.

Stop shilling TFD.

It has nothing to do with adding things as the whole point you make is to remove things. In that example, you want to remove every single burgers from the menu and just have the Big mac and nothing else. Ok, you can have a Big mac with coca, sprite, oasis, or fanta, but you want to remove variety and different sizes and tastes made for different people just because you like Big mac and nothing else. I'm trying to keep the variety on the menu here, even the happy meals and the chicken nuggets.

[4thBro]

6 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

It has nothing to do with adding things as the whole point you make is to remove things. In that example, you want to remove every single burgers from the menu and just have the Big mac and nothing else. Ok, you can have a Big mac with coca, sprite, oasis, or fanta, but you want to remove variety and different sizes and tastes made for different people just because you like Big mac and nothing else. I'm trying to keep the variety on the menu here, even the happy meals and the chicken nuggets.

You're flipping the script. YOU'RE the one that wants to [remove things from the game/prevent them from being added].

You're literally the one doing that here.

That's YOU.

 

Why do I even have to waste a post to say this??? I wish I could just delete people's fallacious posts entirely. This thread would legitimately go down to 5 pages.

[MrInubis]

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I mean no.

I was one of the people asking for a damage 3.0, citing several of the issues that DE openly chose to address. I'm one of the people asking for enemies that don't literally have the same silhouette and poor communication of damage, Whispers in the Walls came along and every enemy has a clear mechanical role and massively distinct silhouette. Hell, even just the existence of the 'ability damage' Archon Shards suggests that the architecture to be able to change the damage of abilities is there and DE have considered it a potential avenue to mod.

This is completely different discussion. You want to kill with abilities that DE is actively making a support once. Publik brought up Nekros as great example. DE could just bump the numbers but they gave Soul Punch utility instead. You have the same situation with Hydroid and his rework. They straight up doing everything except giving those abilities more dmg. It is obvious what they intend to do. They want to push weapon gameplay more and push abilities to suplement it.

 

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm not talking about lore, I'm not talking about item descriptions, I'm not even talking about what the devs decided to say in a devstream once.

But the item and skill descriptions must be made according to the lore. It is colorized and made grander than it really is. 

 

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm saying that if you shoot a laser beam, or a bolt of lightning, or a fireball, or punch someone's soul out of their body, or throw razor sharp gems at someone, or hit someone with a spear, or smite them with radioactive power, or run someone over at mach speeds, or breath fire at them like a dragon or throw a literal seismic event at them... One would reasonably anticipate that to do meaningful damage (and this isn't even an exhaustive list).

Your expectations are the problem here. Its a YOU problem. Ember just got her buff with jade shadows, her 1 got buffed in fact. Do you really think DE is so stupid that they dont know it wasnt enough? They simply dont want to. Same with every other ability on your list.

 

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

But for goodness sake, why is it so controversial to suggest that stabbing someone with a spear of razor-sharp glass should probably hurt?

And it does to certain point. That argument is so silly. Do you think stabing someone with a glass hurts more than shooting multiple fkn grades at him? On top of it enemies wear protection. Is this only for show?

 

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm not even asking for all these abilities to do as much damage as weapons are expected to, or that they're all as available as weapons. They all have different parameters, and some some definitely have a primary purpose that isn't damage or at least a second purpose that is as meaningful (Mach Rush, Axios Javelin and Fractured Blast from the above list) that would kind of necessitate them doing less damage for balancing reasons. Others like Sound Quake have other issues that'd need to be addressed in the process to avoid them becoming over-dominant, though by now their either in the minority or function well enough without a rework that they could get passed over.

And DE wants the secondary effects like armor strip, priming, cc etc to be the main purpose of the skill in later parts of the game. They made it very clear with every update to frames. What is so hard to comprehend in this?

Edited August 31 by kuciol

[Venus-Venera]

Am 29.8.2024 um 13:11 schrieb Thorham:

What a steaming pile of a thread 🙄

yes. I can't find any unity or basic idea there. Unfortunately it has degenerated into pointless off-topic spam.

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

That'd just wrong. Caliban's 4 is a lingering defense strip. You can cover two or three doors of anyroom for a 30+s duration without spamming it. It's called spell rotation, and every frames should do that accordingly. Like you don't recast Vex armor every seconds, but before it ends.

And any energy generation like energy Nexus + zenurik + nourish makes primed flow quite useless, why bother having 700 energy if you gain 20/s allowing your rotation ?

So, Ok. I'll cede here that Caliban's 4 does have a practical build that lets him use it as a damaging power.

I don't think this is as big of a win as you think it is though, for the following reasons:

1: Caliban was just the deer in the headlights of several Problems that served as the centerpiece of the debate. This build does technically solve it for him, but he's merely symptomatic. In other words, you haven't undone the central argument - you've just  given me a build for Caliban specifically I'd be interested to see if you've got it put in somewhere.  But frames like Wisp, Frost, Ember and so forth, they're still sitting here with some of the exact same issues Caliban did. Though worth noting - you don't consistently have access to both roar and nourish, so you need to choose between damage output and availability. Honestly that just makes the build interesting

2: You've kind of screwed over @kuciol, because part of what they're saying is that only 'Caster Frames' should be allowed to kill at high levels with their abilities, and that Caliban isn't a 'caster frame' - that I should just get over myself, and Caliban (and others) wasn't meant to be a damage dealer with his powers, and letting him (and the others) will collapse the concept of frame identity. But here we are, Caliban's sitting here with a build that lets him muscle in on 'Caster Warframe' territory already, thereby demonstrating that 'Caster frame' is in no way something enshrined in the game's design. 

3: What you're suggesting is a good suggestion for an alternative energy system. Instead of huge energy bars and the current energy resupply system which is super feast-or-famine, more limited energy supply but with a constant regeneration (with current energy restoration methods either providing much lower resupplies or temporarily boosting the recharge rate) could quite nicely work eliminate spamming. Not sure it's a perfect system but it might well be better than what we already got.

 

Soooo... thanks for that. Might try put together that Caliban build when I have the time, but I'll probably wait for the rework first.