Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

This is completely different discussion. You want to kill with abilities that DE is actively making a support once. Publik brought up Nekros as great example. DE could just bump the numbers but they gave Soul Punch utility instead. You have the same situation with Hydroid and his rework. They straight up doing everything except giving those abilities more dmg. It is obvious what they intend to do. They want to push weapon gameplay more and push abilities to suplement it.

 

You keep pulling out this straw man, and at this point your big counter to 'So why do they keep adding ability killers' just got a massive rebuttle in one of these supposed 'support abilities' having a build that lets him be a 'Caster frame'.

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

But the item and skill descriptions must be made according to the lore. It is colorized and made grander than it really is. 

Am I talking about item and skill descriptions?

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

Your expectations are the problem here. Its a YOU problem. Ember just got her buff with jade shadows, her 1 got buffed in fact. Do you really think DE is so stupid that they dont know it wasnt enough? They simply dont want to. Same with every other ability on your list.

Respectfully, these are the same devs that, the first time they tried to fix armour scaling, put up a graph that literally demonstrated that the changes they were going for weren't going to fix armour scaling for use as marketing material. They are not infallible.

And the inverse is also true - do you think DE is so stupid that, if they implemented this 'ability damage modding system' that they couldn't just omit any abilities that they really didn't want as damage-dealers for whatever reason?

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

And it does to certain point. That argument is so silly. Do you think stabing someone with a glass hurts more than shooting multiple fkn grades at him? On top of it enemies wear protection. Is this only for show?

I literally mentioned that I don't mind if it does less damage in post you're responding to, as long as it's still meaningful damage. Which it isn't at the moment.

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

And DE wants the secondary effects like armor strip, priming, cc etc to be the main purpose of the skill in later parts of the game. They made it very clear with every update to frames. What is so hard to comprehend in this?

So should they now nerf Caliban because he can have his damage and his armour strip late-game if you build him just so?

Like if its so important to them that the secondary property is the only meaningful effect, then surely this new development means he needs a nerf, right?

[dwqrf]

il y a 9 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

So, Ok. I'll cede here that Caliban's 4 does have a practical build that lets him use it as a damaging power.

I don't think this is as big of a win as you think it is though, for the following reasons:

1: Caliban was just the deer in the headlights of several Problems that served as the centerpiece of the debate. This build does technically solve it for him, but he's merely symptomatic. In other words, you haven't undone the central argument - you've just  given me a build for Caliban specifically I'd be interested to see if you've got it put in somewhere.  But frames like Wisp, Frost, Ember and so forth, they're still sitting here with some of the exact same issues Caliban did. Though worth noting - you don't consistently have access to both roar and nourish, so you need to choose between damage output and availability. Honestly that just makes the build interesting

2: You've kind of screwed over @kuciol, because part of what they're saying is that only 'Caster Frames' should be allowed to kill at high levels with their abilities, and that Caliban isn't a 'caster frame' - that I should just get over myself, and Caliban (and others) wasn't meant to be a damage dealer with his powers, and letting him (and the others) will collapse the concept of frame identity. But here we are, Caliban's sitting here with a build that lets him muscle in on 'Caster Warframe' territory already, thereby demonstrating that 'Caster frame' is in no way something enshrined in the game's design. 

3: What you're suggesting is a good suggestion for an alternative energy system. Instead of huge energy bars and the current energy resupply system which is super feast-or-famine, more limited energy supply but with a constant regeneration (with current energy restoration methods either providing much lower resupplies or temporarily boosting the recharge rate) could quite nicely work eliminate spamming. Not sure it's a perfect system but it might well be better than what we already got.

 

Soooo... thanks for that. Might try put together that Caliban build when I have the time, but I'll probably wait for the rework first.

What I mean to highlight in this is that both build, Roar and Nourish, while exclusive to your frame, can be set up in a duo premade without issue. Both those spells are also quite popular to encounter in any public games.

On the min maxing topic, reaching 300% power isn't that much of a deal, as you can get it with only Blind rage + Molt Augmented + growing power and/or shards.

While the Roar build is harder to maintain due to the need of recasting (in both build) many abilities, a couple of yellow shards for +% energy orb efficiency mutiplied by zenurik passive (yes) can do some insane energy generation, without the need of Nourish or even Energize. But you'll have to procc viral from your weapons or sentinel.

In the Nourish build, buffing yourself, allies AND your three sentients with viral AND aoe viral status + stagger when hit is a huge control and status sprayer as it is reliable considering the high aggro of Progeny x3). And even without Roar, you'd reach 480k damage with 4 which is already overkill versus hordes of trash mobs.

But where I disagree with your post, is that in both build, Caliban still is NOT a caster frame, as you don't use any of those abilities to deal direct damage, as 1 helminthed is a self buff, 2 a debuff, 3 a defensive spells, and 4 a strip defense ; all four enabling your weapons, companions, and allies, to deal greater damage. If 2/3/4 deal damage, that's welcomed but beside the point. You surely have to cast a lot of abilities, but that doesn't for the cast damage kind of description, in my opinion, but rather the weapons plateform / summoner / or even support.

(Also, passive ensure that the companions, allies without Adaptation, and your sentient, stay alive longer.)

I almost sure Caliban remake will only adjust some cast speed, remove hitbox collision of Progeny, and overall qol changes, and maybe add a couple of synergies (like Progeny casting 4 : but why ?)

I hope you like him, he isn't as atrocious or useless as people say. Just need a good build, and a quite smart gestion of his energy hunger to stay consistant (=skill and attention). Duration helps a lot.

[dwqrf]

il y a 17 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Like if its so important to them that the secondary property is the only meaningful effect, then surely this new development means he needs a nerf, right?

Yes, that's what I fear. In the need to make him popular, they will make it more accessible while less potent with a total full perfect build. That done, they will be able to develop band-aid augments so we can push him again to his actual power level...

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But where I disagree with your post, is that in both build, Caliban still is NOT a caster frame, as you don't use any of those abilities to deal direct damage, as 1 helminthed is a self buff, 2 a debuff, 3 a defensive spells, and 4 a strip defense ; all four enabling your weapons, companions, and allies, to deal greater damage. If 2/3/4 deal damage, that's welcomed but beside the point. You surely have to cast a lot of abilities, but that doesn't for the cast damage kind of description, in my opinion, but rather the weapons plateform / summoner / or even support.

(Also, passive ensure that the companions, allies without Adaptation, and your sentient, stay alive longer.)

That isn't what you said before.

11 hours ago, dwqrf said:

For example, you claim that Caliban's 4 doesn't do enough damage to be relevant in endgame ; i'm saying it's meant to be good -damage wise- in regular star chart, without outside multiplier, because the context in which you use it matter. Because if you want to do damage later, the context to make it powerful become harder to set up than just using it as a great tool to compliment your weapons, the rest or your kit (or you allies). But in a build with 300% power, which isn't hard to reach with a couple of mods, the 20k becomes 60k, and when factoring the second spell, you reach 120k. Because enemies are already walking through the previous fallout, they have no armor. More than that, you already primed viral x10, so you are already at 480k damage. Slap a Roar on it for 900k~ damage. How many HP have level 9999 enemies ? 350k~ ? How does that -not- work ? The context isn't that hard to set up to find value in the damage portion of the spell, it's just more tedious that just 4+left click.

The build, as presented, is a build to make Calibans 4 capable damage-wise.

[dwqrf]

il y a 9 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

That isn't what you said before.

The build, as presented, is a build to make Calibans 4 capable damage-wise.

It's a build that makes his buffs/debuffs stronger, not a build where you spam 4 to kill enemies ; it -will- kill enemies, but you are mainly only using 4 to refresh the fallout field in openings of the room ; and if foes are there, too bad for them. The only spells you may spam freely is 2, and even then, you can't recast it before it reached full size, and even then, enemies hit have the debuff for a set duration, so you may only spam at different part of the room. Most of the time you play your weapons.

Because realistically, enemies hit by 4 aren't primed with viral and 2. But you can do it if needed. (But will cause you to get out of your spells rotation dictated by duration, Hence creating more energy issues.)

Edited August 31 by dwqrf

[dwqrf]

il y a 11 minutes, kuciol a dit :

And on endgmae he cannot. Try using that exact build on Netracels. Its simply not enough, the build is functional in mid game with high enough investment. You cant make him to max levels. You are jumping to conclusions without trying that yourself. Just because you can make something barely work doesnt mean its intended that way.

Again, the build I provided CAN kill any high level enemies with spells but isn't a "Caster frame" per se as it's only high power -> max buff/debuff build to enable ANY damage, mainly weapon damage. If it happen to align the stars for your spell refresh, it also make them deadly. As it would make any allies do deadly damage, that being with their weapons or spells...

For me there is a clear difference between Caster frames and buffers/debuffers/supports/weapon-plateforme  (and Caliban fits all of the four last cited) as the Caster frame can only use spells to do damage, while all other frames use spell to -enable-. All frames have to cast spells, that doesn't make all frames "Caster frames".

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

They play the game themselves you know.

Lmao. Yeah, 1 hour a week, if wife allows it.

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

It's a build that makes his buffs/debuffs stronger, not a build where you spam 4 to kill enemies ; it -will- kill enemies, but you are mainly only using 4 to refresh the fallout field in openings of the room ; and if foes are there, too bad for them. The only spells you may spam freely is 2, and even then, you can't recast it before it reached full size, and even then, enemies hit have the debuff for a set duration, so you may only spam at different part of the room. Most of the time you play your weapons.

Because realistically, enemies hit by 4 aren't primed with viral and 2. But you can do it if needed. (But will cause you to get out of your spells rotation dictated by duration, Hence creating more energy issues.)

"Well you're wrong anyway, because Caliban has a damage build."

"Oh damn that's really helpful for me to know."

"No wait! It's not a damage build at all! Ignore what I said! Stop! Stop!"

3 hours ago, kuciol said:

And on endgmae he cannot. Try using that exact build on Netracels. Its simply not enough, the build is functional in mid game with high enough investment. You cant make him to max levels. You are jumping to conclusions without trying that yourself. Just because you can make something barely work doesnt mean its intended that way.

I was actually in the middle of trying it myself when you posted this, and I must say I'm disappointed. It doesn't work as advertised. Though to be fair 'As Advertised' is 'killing even super end-game enemies easily', but the fairly ad-libbed build still actually does kill level 185 enemies in a couple casts, so it's in the ballpark at least.

(honestly with how much other demonstrably false information @dwqrf has put out thus far I probably should have suspected this)

 

...

 

That being said.

I did in fact use a Max-strength Caliban (my own build - I have yet to actually receive a build, so I made one myself, which is pretty ad-libbed) in Netracells using abilities. And though it was hard as nails... I did it.

Sooooooooooooo...

Caliban's a Caster Frame I guess. Or more accurately, the term 'caster frame' is a meaningless distinction in the first place, because Warframes are designed to be more versatile in their role than that to facilitate build expression, thereby suggesting that the current system which is strangling that should be changed.

(Full disclosure, I did have a Grimoire, but the only damage mods on there were the 60/60 mods to get viral going as part of the set-up, and viral will be doing 50% less damage too. All the rest are status chance or status duration mods, plus the energy recharge mod. Frankly, if I were to repeat this I don't think I'd even need the already-minimal damage aspect, since engineering the whole setup with Viral was usually too risky so I usually just used it for energy). 

I'm confident I could do so a second time if you absolutely insist on video, but I won't be able to do so for a couple days at the very soonest, since over the next few days I'm going to be busy around this time, and it'll probably take at least a couple more tries to get a second successful run.

Honestly,  highly recommend doing this, it was a hell of a fight. And it was more meaningful of a challenge run then just not modding equipment, since it forced a different playstyle. Not a replacement for better balance and endgame though, and if I hear someone use this as evidence for it, I'm gonna flip.

 

3 hours ago, kuciol said:

You are again running circles. You are arguing against hard, evident intent of devs. They literally do that with every rework. If they did miss the mark once, sure you could have a point but when its a rule? Hell no. Thats how every ability with secondary effect is made. This discussion takes us nowhere honestly. If you are so sure that they want us to kill with abilities than why the hell they dont make them strong enough? They play the game themselves you know. They know how it works.

Why did it take them so long to address armour scaling? Why has it taken them so long to address pets? Why do they keep releasing frames where you are supposed to kill with damage, even if it does have a secondary effect like proccing helpful status effects?

Your argument is that this is dev intention. The truth of the matter is that dev intention can change. It has changed in the past. And I have given several reasons why it should change.

The only reason you have been able to give as to why things should stay as they are is that it is how they are. An insistence that there is nothing wrong even though this is pretty clearly not a universally-held belief.

[dwqrf]

il y a 13 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

"Well you're wrong anyway, because Caliban has a damage build."

"Oh damn that's really helpful for me to know."

"No wait! It's not a damage build at all! Ignore what I said! Stop! Stop!"

I was actually in the middle of trying it myself when you posted this, and I must say I'm disappointed. It doesn't work as advertised. Though to be fair 'As Advertised' is 'killing even super end-game enemies easily', but the fairly ad-libbed build still actually does kill level 185 enemies in a couple casts, so it's in the ballpark at least.

(honestly with how much other demonstrably false information @dwqrf has put out thus far I probably should have suspected this)

 

...

 

That being said.

I did in fact use a Max-strength Caliban (my own build - I have yet to actually receive a build, so I made one myself, which is pretty ad-libbed) in Netracells using abilities. And though it was hard as nails... I did it.

Sooooooooooooo...

Caliban's a Caster Frame I guess. Or more accurately, the term 'caster frame' is a meaningless distinction in the first place, because Warframes are designed to be more versatile in their role than that to facilitate build expression, thereby suggesting that the current system which is strangling that should be changed.

(Full disclosure, I did have a Grimoire, but the only damage mods on there were the 60/60 mods to get viral going as part of the set-up, and viral will be doing 50% less damage too. All the rest are status chance or status duration mods, plus the energy recharge mod. Frankly, if I were to repeat this I don't think I'd even need the already-minimal damage aspect, since engineering the whole setup with Viral was usually too risky so I usually just used it for energy). 

I'm confident I could do so a second time if you absolutely insist on video, but I won't be able to do so for a couple days at the very soonest, since over the next few days I'm going to be busy around this time, and it'll probably take at least a couple more tries to get a second successful run.

Honestly,  highly recommend doing this, it was a hell of a fight. And it was more meaningful of a challenge run then just not modding equipment, since it forced a different playstyle. Not a replacement for better balance and endgame though, and if I hear someone use this as evidence for it, I'm gonna flip.

 

Why did it take them so long to address armour scaling? Why has it taken them so long to address pets? Why do they keep releasing frames where you are supposed to kill with damage, even if it does have a secondary effect like proccing helpful status effects?

Your argument is that this is dev intention. The truth of the matter is that dev intention can change. It has changed in the past. And I have given several reasons why it should change.

The only reason you have been able to give as to why things should stay as they are is that it is how they are. An insistence that there is nothing wrong even though this is pretty clearly not a universally-held belief.

No, once again, you didn't get my point, and I'll clear it for you, while also thanking you for understanding the complex importance of context ; because that's how Caliban's build relate to this whole conversation about why spells do so little damage on paper, but how they can scale like crazy in the right context :

Caliban 4 do only 20k damage on paper. Right. So new players can use it as a damaging spell straight forward in normal star chart.

But if you want to use it into any mid game, you may use them either as tools, or prime/buff them to make it effective. 

While in endgame, you -have- to set them up perfectly to benefit from everything and make them work well.

That's how the game is generally designed for all frames.

In the specific case of Caliban, you have access to :

1) A free helminth slot so you can use Roar to buff everything (spells, weapons, and double dipping status)

2) More damage as a debuff (spells 2)

3) Strip defense

So you only need to input from external source some Viral status, from weapons or companion.

If you follow these rules, any frame can do relevant damage in endgame, if you set it up correctly : create a context where your damage explode.

For example, a Saryn using spores will prime targets with x4 damage for 4's spells, but also make corrosive status stripping armor (which can be total with shards), and when 4 is cast, it will also apply viral. Slap a Roar on that, or Caliban's 2, and you are golden.

It works everywhere. All frames can use any spells and do relevant damage IF using the right context, mostly multiplicative damage buff, multiplicative damage debuff, and strip defense.

Caliban is just a perfect example because he has all of it in his kit, especially if you play Nourish.

But debuffing+buffing+strip, even if it can make spell damage relevant, also allows any weapons to deal a greater amount of damage from the consistency of range+ammo+aoe/fire rate without putting you in a constant exposed cast-lock and needing high energy consumption, which is already used to keep the spell refreshing going.

Hence, weapons plateforms are more reliable than spells caster.

Hence why we focus way harder on the utility part of the spells in this topic instead of their damage in most case, as your Warframe cannot be a good spell caster without being a glass canon, as focusing on spells spamming will add another issue of higher energy consumption that tales a lot of slot to revert. Instead, playing any frame as a enabler allows to ditch some energy issue for more tankyness and consitstancy. That's how the game works.

Now, if there is anything else you don't understand, ask, instead of saying I'm lying and giving false informations because you don't get it or don't use them in the right context. I'll be glad to clarify, again.

[MrInubis]

54 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Caliban's a Caster Frame I guess. Or more accurately, the term 'caster frame' is a meaningless distinction in the first place, because Warframes are designed to be more versatile in their role than that to facilitate build expression, thereby suggesting that the current system which is strangling that should be changed.

Its not, you can tell by what their abilities do. Its of course not any official term or class but more of a description in what frame excels at. Caster frames spam abilities to kill enemies like Dante, weapon platform frames excel at buffing dmg output of weapons like Saryn, support frames heal, buff, give energy, buff teammates like Harrow. You can make clear distinction in what their meant to do. There is no reason to homogenize them.

 

54 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Why did it take them so long to address armour scaling? Why has it taken them so long to address pets? Why do they keep releasing frames where you are supposed to kill with damage, even if it does have a secondary effect like proccing helpful status effects?

Because such things take time. Why are you so fixated on abilities doing dmg? They do because DE decided them to do. The dmg part is the secondary effect in many cases, the cherry on top. Banshees sonic fractures main purpose is CC and armor strip (with augment) for example. DMG is not the relevant part here. Lets just remove the dmg, that should solve your issue right? Hell thats what they are doing anyway most of the time. They rework abilities to have more utility than dmg.

 

54 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The only reason you have been able to give as to why things should stay as they are is that it is how they are. An insistence that there is nothing wrong even though this is pretty clearly not a universally-held belief.

Because there is nothing wrong. Having diverse and destinct roles is important. It gives frames their niche and their purpose. It also promotes diversity. If i want to spam abilities i will play something thats meant to do that, if i want to shoot guns i will play something that complements that etc. What you want is this fake diversity where in theory you can play everything the way you like but at the same time they feel the same and its like you never changed anything. 

 

54 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I'm confident I could do so a second time if you absolutely insist on video, but I won't be able to do so for a couple days at the very soonest, since over the next few days I'm going to be busy around this time, and it'll probably take at least a couple more tries to get a second successful run.

Cool now do it with Dante. The fact that something is possible doesnt mean its intended that way. 

 

In the end it doesnt matter how you feel about it when DE is actively doing the opposite of what you want.

Edited August 31 by kuciol

[Cleesus]

We don’t always Have to agree with each other but let’s keep it on topic and civil. If you have repeated problems with a user the ignore function doesn’t hurt 

[4thBro]

Good point. Back on topic, boys.

 

"Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is."

 

 

 

 

Some people agree, and would like more challenging content.

For them, Warframe is indeed held back.

 

Other people disagree, and they precisely like how easy it is.

For them, Warframe is exactly how it should be.

 

I would like to ask the latter group of people the following question:

If we had a difficult endgame* that did not interfere with what YOU like about Warframe, would you be okay with its addition?

 

 

 

 

*This can be defined later on in the conversation.

[Loza03]

22 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Because there is nothing wrong. Having diverse and destinct roles is important. It gives frames their niche and their purpose. It also promotes diversity. If i want to spam abilities i will play something thats meant to do that, if i want to shoot guns i will play something that complements that etc. What you want is this fake diversity where in theory you can play everything the way you like but at the same time they feel the same and its like you never changed anything. 

There certainly is variation in what frames are good at, but it is equally, demonstrably true that there's no clear distinctions either, and most frames are designed in ways to facilitate build expression and define how you want to play. Hence why it is, in fact, possible to bend Caliban into a caster if you try hard enough. And the way things are stifles that expression, creates bad habits and communicates inaccurately about how frames are meant to be played in the first place.

 

(also again, who makes a laser cannon a debuff ability. I have yet to receive a decent answer for this)

27 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Because such things take time. Why are you so fixated on abilities doing dmg? They do because DE decided them to do. The dmg part is the secondary effect in many cases, the cherry on top. Banshees sonic fractures main purpose is CC and armor strip (with augment) for example. DMG is not the relevant part here. Lets just remove the dmg, that should solve your issue right? Hell thats what they are doing anyway most of the time. They rework abilities to have more utility than dmg.

Oh hey another case where an ability's 'main purpose' is on a completely optional augment. Also, what's the point of CC if the player is also CC'd when you're using it?

And let's take another look at this, shall we? In the last 5 years of frame releases (as of the most recent frame release), every frame except one have had an ability that deals at least 1,000 base damage - most have abilities that do more. That lone excepiton? Protea, who's Blaze Artillery doubles in damage with every hit. This number does increase to two if we discount exalted weapons though, since Jade also misses that mark.

 

But if we look past before that point, to the five years before? Wisp hits it, and Hildryn if we're counting exalted weapons but then the next frame to do so is Revenan, skipping over Baruuk (understandably given his theme) and Garuda (completely irrationally given her theme). Khora then misses the mark - Khora. Gara hits it, then Harrow fails to do any damage at all. Octavia also misses the mark, and even Nidus - though Nidus is a Protea-like exception in that he has a scaling mechanic. That being said, his unmodded maximum stack damage is notably lower than the base ability damage of Dagath's 4, being 23,230 compared to Dagaths 30,000

And that last example kind of demonstrates what I'm getting at. DE has been increasing the amount of damage player abilities deal over time, not the opposite. Many of the abilities breaking the 1000 damage barrier on newer frames are first abilities too, meaning there are frames doing as much damage on their first ability as older frames are doing on their 4's!

That's not the behavior of devs who don't want their abilities to do damage. The only reason these newer frames aren't doing damage is because of the damage system - something DE has already shown an interest in changing of late.

 

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

Cool now do it with Dante. The fact that something is possible doesnt mean its intended that way. 

 

In the end it doesnt matter how you feel about it when DE is actively doing the opposite of what you want.

Let's actually quickly take a look at Dante from a Warframe Identity perspective.

 

What is Dante's identity?

Is he a weapons platform frame? He's got an ability that directly buffs his damage output, quite nicely to boot at that, and one that debuffs enemies to take increased status damage - which weapons are broadly more suited to provide as people keep trying to tell me.

Is he a tank Frame? He's got the ability to generate huge overguard that lets him stand in the line of fire comfortably, and he's even got sort of inverse Iron Skin, where the damage he deals is converted into Overguard, rather than the reverse.

Is he a support frame? He can provide the aforementioned benefits and buffs to others as well.

Is he a damage caster? He has access to some of the most potent damage in the game, damage that cuts through armour to boot.

He's even an Exalted frame, with his own exalted weapon.

 

I'm just saying, if you want a frame to stake your claim that DE really wants to keep frames as fitting into strict categories, then Dante probably isn't your best choice. Honestly none of the past couple year's frames are shining examples of frames that fit into a specific role. Qorvex has tons of Tanking options and tons of damage, Dagath fits into the 'weapons platform' except she also pulls out one of if not the biggest base damage in the whole game with her 4 and access to scaling damage via her 2, Citrine summons a turret and debuffs enemies considerably on top of her support moveset and Jade has an exalted weapon that deals substantial damage as an aside to her support options too. None are as clear cut as frames like Trinity, Rhino or Excalibur - or other such older frames.

Again, it's not really a good sign that DE currently puts value into Frame Identity, at least on the level of frames fitting into distinct 'roles'. All of these abilities are very thematic in terms of their aesthetic.

 

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

Its not, you can tell by what their abilities do. Its of course not any official term or class but more of a description in what frame excels at. Caster frames spam abilities to kill enemies like Dante, weapon platform frames excel at buffing dmg output of weapons like Saryn, support frames heal, buff, give energy, buff teammates like Harrow. You can make clear distinction in what their meant to do. There is no reason to homogenize them.

 

I think most of the above has rather made my stance clear on where I stand on this.

Especially considering that Caliban evidentially fits exactly into the definition of the 'Caster Frame' you're giving if you build him just so. No amount of 'You can clearly tell what he's meant to do!' can change the fact that even in end game content, Caliban can spam abilities to do damage if you really want him to.

Also I remember when Saryn was a caster-damage frame. Deciding to slot her into a different role because she's been power crept out of relevance doesn't change what her kit does, it only further emphasises the balance issue in terms of abilities vs weapons.

[4thBro]

Oh my godddddddddd, I give up.

 

A mod reset the thread, and I refocused it, but we're immediately back to the garbage.

 

 

 

 

I tap out. Bye.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

No, once again, you didn't get my point, and I'll clear it for you, while also thanking you for understanding the complex importance of context ; because that's how Caliban's build relate to this whole conversation about why spells do so little damage on paper, but how they can scale like crazy in the right context :

Caliban 4 do only 20k damage on paper. Right. So new players can use it as a damaging spell straight forward in normal star chart.

But if you want to use it into any mid game, you may use them either as tools, or prime/buff them to make it effective. 

While in endgame, you -have- to set them up perfectly to benefit from everything and make them work well.

That's how the game is generally designed for all frames.

In the specific case of Caliban, you have access to :

1) A free helminth slot so you can use Roar to buff everything (spells, weapons, and double dipping status)

2) More damage as a debuff (spells 2)

3) Strip defense

So you only need to input from external source some Viral status, from weapons or companion.

If you follow these rules, any frame can do relevant damage in endgame, if you set it up correctly : create a context where your damage explode.

For example, a Saryn using spores will prime targets with x4 damage for 4's spells, but also make corrosive status stripping armor (which can be total with shards), and when 4 is cast, it will also apply viral. Slap a Roar on that, or Caliban's 2, and you are golden.

It works everywhere. All frames can use any spells and do relevant damage IF using the right context, mostly multiplicative damage buff, multiplicative damage debuff, and strip defense.

Caliban is just a perfect example because he has all of it in his kit, especially if you play Nourish.

But debuffing+buffing+strip, even if it can make spell damage relevant, also allows any weapons to deal a greater amount of damage from the consistency of range+ammo+aoe/fire rate without putting you in a constant exposed cast-lock and needing high energy consumption, which is already used to keep the spell refreshing going.

Hence, weapons plateforms are more reliable than spells caster.

Hence why we focus way harder on the utility part of the spells in this topic instead of their damage in most case, as your Warframe cannot be a good spell caster without being a glass canon, as focusing on spells spamming will add another issue of higher energy consumption that tales a lot of slot to revert. Instead, playing any frame as a enabler allows to ditch some energy issue for more tankyness and consitstancy. That's how the game works.

Now, if there is anything else you don't understand, ask, instead of saying I'm lying and giving false informations because you don't get it or don't use them in the right context. I'll be glad to clarify, again.

 

First of all, you have given false information, more than once in fact. For example, even in this specific thread of discussion, you made the claim Caliban could oneshot level 9999 enemies with the right setup, which is verifiably untrue. And this isn't the first time either - please consider the demographics part. Whether you're intending to mislead or are simply factually wrong, the simple fact of the matter is that I cannot regard you as a trustworthy source of information at this time.

 

Secondly, I understand perfectly what you're trying to convey. I simply do not agree that Caliban was originally intended as a 'weapons platform' frame using the evidence presented by the abilities he has access to. 

Separately, I also do not agree with the concept that Frames have hard roles that they are designed to exclusively play in the first place, because in my opinion this just isn't supported with how DE has been designing abilities or frames for a long time.

 

Both of these concepts can be highlighted by demonstrating Caliban as capable of being a 'Caster Frame'. His 4 is able to do what its visuals and stats suggest it ought to be able to do, if barely. And by extension, the idea that he was designed to be locked in to just being a weapons platform frame is called into further question.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

There certainly is variation in what frames are good at, but it is equally, demonstrably true that there's no clear distinctions either, and most frames are designed in ways to facilitate build expression and define how you want to play.

I'm just popping back in for a second, but case in point: Helminth. Helminth allows any frame to take the abilities of other frames. Any frame can become a tank by taking an ability like Elemental Ward. Any frame can become CC by taking an ability like Terrify. Any frame can become a support by taking an ability like Well Of Life. Any frame can become a looter by taking Petrify and Ore Gaze. Any frame can become a "weapons platform" by taking an ability like Roar. Melee DPS with Warcry, Armor Stripper with Shuriken, caster with Dark Verse, summoner with Mind Control or Dessication's Curse, mobility with Wrathful Advance, area denial with Chyrinka Pillar, etc. etc. etc. Anything you can think of.

[GEN-Son_17]

10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Caliban was just the deer in the headlights of several Problems that served as the centerpiece of the debate. This build does technically solve it for him, but he's merely symptomatic. In other words, you haven't undone the central argument - you've just  given me a build for Caliban specifically I'd be interested to see if you've got it put in somewhere.  But frames like Wisp, Frost, Ember and so forth, they're still sitting here with some of the exact same issues Caliban did. Though worth noting - you don't consistently have access to both roar and nourish, so you need to choose between damage output and availability. Honestly that just makes the build interesting

Interesting new side topic here...and I like this one better. 

Looking at the frames you mentioned, it looks like you're looking to dismiss a part of gameplay just for the sake of power over utility. Caliban, for example, is a monstrous powerhouse with only one subpar ability...that looks like DE is about to adjust. Stripped defenses, damage vulnerability and a CC from just two abilities means better status, arcane and parazon buff options. Chaining statuses, like electric, gas and blast, become dominant and hit significantly harder, locking down zones and functions as a means of damage reduction from those trap zones.

Frost, my main, is actually the most powerful frame in the game, IMO. Just the Umbra mods are Prime Redirection and Archon Flow are enough for anyone to turn him into a nuker tank. Range, duration and even efficiency are not very important for him, which means you can use three slots and an exilus slot to reinforce any type of role you want him to be. Even his Ice Ball is easily the best Haduken in the game, locking down a zone, freezing the targets and increasing his armor...which also means his bubble gets stronger. Ice Wave is now very dangerous and impedance is much more potent. Again, armor strip means AOE statuses are much more potent. Ember is similar with her Fire Blast greatly boosting overall damage output while triggering a CC knockdown and allowing the most deadly stat procs to excel. Asking for more seems a bit...greedy. 

Overall, DE is correct in keeping those frames' abilities damage output at bay. Yes, the direct ability damage isn't high (in SP. I feel that is important to say), but it shouldn't even remotely be. Their costs are low and the overall damage/effective output, accounting for wide areas, is very high. 

[dwqrf]

Il y a 3 heures, Loza03 a dit :

First of all, you have given false information, more than once in fact. For example, even in this specific thread of discussion, you made the claim Caliban could oneshot level 9999 enemies with the right setup, which is verifiably untrue. And this isn't the first time either - please consider the demographics part. Whether you're intending to mislead or are simply factually wrong, the simple fact of the matter is that I cannot regard you as a trustworthy source of information at this time.

 

Secondly, I understand perfectly what you're trying to convey. I simply do not agree that Caliban was originally intended as a 'weapons platform' frame using the evidence presented by the abilities he has access to. 

Separately, I also do not agree with the concept that Frames have hard roles that they are designed to exclusively play in the first place, because in my opinion this just isn't supported with how DE has been designing abilities or frames for a long time.

 

Both of these concepts can be highlighted by demonstrating Caliban as capable of being a 'Caster Frame'. His 4 is able to do what its visuals and stats suggest it ought to be able to do, if barely. And by extension, the idea that he was designed to be locked in to just being a weapons platform frame is called into further question.

Intending to misslead is extremely different than being factually incorrect, and I also can quite legitimately suppose that you didn't fact check it in the right set up. None of the informations you provided also are factually true, as in "Volt 1 bad" when you dismissed whole part of the frame as in passive or augment, which are whole part of the context.

Secondly, I've never claimed that Caliban was a caster frame, because -being able to kill with spells-  and -using only spells to kill- are a whole different world ; so that's only your own assumption twisting words. In fact, as they all features duration and that you try so hard to spam them highlight again you don't know what context means. But that doesn't mean the damage part of the spells exist for no reasons or cannot be considered useful. We know your point of view is biased as you want every spell in the game to be on the damage level of Saryn 1+4 or Khora 1+incarnon or Excalibur 4, but that's not the case. In fact, we could divide any frame with a metric of damage component/utility/defense and they will have roughly the same total score. Those metric and the total score are different than what you think is good or right, for a game which you consider a rpg, but that's your own ideas that exist mainly in your head versus some hard existing truth which is the game itself, which you ignore when we point out context.

You are again misslead by description and visual without understanding it's marketing and aesthetic. Atlas may look strong, but he isn't, and Yareli might look weak, but she isn't. You want visually stunning spells to do as much damage as you think they should, but that's only your imagination that's hurt when they don't do what you think they do. Your perception is the issue, not the facts.

[dwqrf]

il y a une heure, PublikDomain a dit :

I'm just popping back in for a second, but case in point: Helminth. Helminth allows any frame to take the abilities of other frames. Any frame can become a tank by taking an ability like Elemental Ward. Any frame can become CC by taking an ability like Terrify. Any frame can become a support by taking an ability like Well Of Life. Any frame can become a looter by taking Petrify and Ore Gaze. Any frame can become a "weapons platform" by taking an ability like Roar. Melee DPS with Warcry, Armor Stripper with Shuriken, caster with Dark Verse, summoner with Mind Control or Dessication's Curse, mobility with Wrathful Advance, area denial with Chyrinka Pillar, etc. etc. etc. Anything you can think of.

One spell taken away doesn't change the three others spells, the passive and the stats of the frame, because again : context.

You can helminth Shield recovery in inaros, that won't make him a Shield gater abuser.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 3 heures, 4thBro a dit :

Oh my godddddddddd, I give up.

 

A mod reset the thread, and I refocused it, but we're immediately back to the garbage.

 

 

 

 

I tap out. Bye.

Bye bye losing bro. Don't worry about garbage in the topic, we know you will come back with some more.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 4 heures, 4thBro a dit :

Other people disagree, and they precisely like how easy it is.

For them, Warframe is exactly how it should be.

Is that.... Strawmaning ??? Who would have guessed. Ha !

[dwqrf]

Il y a 5 heures, Loza03 a dit :

What is Dante's identity?

Is he a weapons platform frame? He's got an ability that directly buffs his damage output, quite nicely to boot at that, and one that debuffs enemies to take increased status damage - which weapons are broadly more suited to provide as people keep trying to tell me.

Is he a tank Frame? He's got the ability to generate huge overguard that lets him stand in the line of fire comfortably, and he's even got sort of inverse Iron Skin, where the damage he deals is converted into Overguard, rather than the reverse.

Is he a support frame? He can provide the aforementioned benefits and buffs to others as well.

Is he a damage caster? He has access to some of the most potent damage in the game, damage that cuts through armour to boot.

He's even an Exalted frame, with his own exalted weapon.

 

I'm just saying, if you want a frame to stake your claim that DE really wants to keep frames as fitting into strict categories, then Dante probably isn't your best choice. Honestly none of the past couple year's frames are shining examples of frames that fit into a specific role. Qorvex has tons of Tanking options and tons of damage, Dagath fits into the 'weapons platform' except she also pulls out one of if not the biggest base damage in the whole game with her 4 and access to scaling damage via her 2, Citrine summons a turret and debuffs enemies considerably on top of her support moveset and Jade has an exalted weapon that deals substantial damage as an aside to her support options too. None are as clear cut as frames like Trinity, Rhino or Excalibur - or other such older frames.

As you have pointed out that fact matter, let's talk a bit about Dante.

First, as a preview, it is true that since Pablo design frames, and that he loves -complete- kits, he always tried to create Jake of all trades frames instead of hard stuck character into one single identity, allowing for build versitality and consistency in the meta(s).

But let's check facts first :

To judge the overall power of a frame, you have to take into account context of obtention. Dante isn't a early frame, as you can only get it after unlocking most of the content and doing high level disruption versus a strong faction. So it makes sense his kit is strong, as was Caliban's when narmer appeared.

Then, you claim Dante has a damage buff ; supposing you are talking about Wordwarden, it doesn't boost or buff any damage, as it is its own instance of -added- damage which would be highly dependant on %power, noctua's build, and weapons usage.

Then, while Overguard can scale to high numbers, it's only big numbers never talking into account any %damage reduction, making it much less interesting that expected, but as you said it many times, people are often stuck on superficial impression. The strenght of OG reside highly in control/status immunity. Also, Dante doesn't generate OG with damage, but rather with kills, and that's over time, which is highly situationnal. A bit like Trumna potency of charging alt fire vs incarnons kind of debate. Also, the main mean of Dante's own survival isn't just OG, as paragrims having higher aggro and immortal state make the ultimate damage negation by avoidance/redirect much stronger than any traditionnal layers of protection ; like Caliban's Progeny.

Then, Dante spells damage doesn't cut through armor. While yes, dark verse and paragrims do inflict slash status (and multiply status damage), tragedy doesn't, it does plain damage, which is reduced by armor. Like equinox's 4. The ability to remove slash status bypassing armor actually reduced his damage potency in favor of a burst. The facts that Dante doesn't have strip defense in his kit can lower his damage by a huge marging, and armor nerf was a big buff for him. And LOS reduce it's effectiveness.

And while he has an exalted weapons, I don't even feel it as potent as a grimoire, as it has energy cost per shoot, while the latter doesn't, and it's gimmick to use many tome modes is just that, a gimmick. Also, building a good Exalted Noctua's will reduc the potential of Wordwarden, as they have different build. Wordwarden doesn't benefit from multishot or firerate. Also, 1 is the only spells you can safely helminth away for Roar/Nourish/strip defense without totally breaking his kit ; as it doesn't remove Wordwarden.

So yeah, Dante's identity fit really well the "endgame Jack of all trades" kind of frame, but even though he is strong in everything that he does, he also needs to play well all his kit to do damage, survive, and buff the squad, and casting all of that require a huge amount of energy and time. Some people might really dislike the permacasting needed to refresh buff even if using natural talent, shards, or madurai. He is a great weapon plateform+support+debuffers with a nuke on command, but playing him only as a spell caster to do damage while dismissing the rest of his kit is definelty a wrong way to play him. I've seen a lot of Dante players using only tragedy or noctua, and while that do great damage, they die a lot and don't bring anything to the squad ; which Dante excels at.

(Also, you need a good Codex to improve Dante's power, the true endgame.)

Edited September 1 by dwqrf

[MrInubis]

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

What is Dante's identity?

Support/caster. Noctua is better as utility tool since you can put any number of tome  mods on it. You can build it for dmg but it will be overall subpar to ther options and will hinder his other abilities. Again the fact that something is possible doesnt mean its the intended way.

 

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

also again, who makes a laser cannon a debuff ability. I have yet to receive a decent answer for this

DE does. Dude you have 2 giant walls smashing as grouping ability (Qorvex) and tiny mosquitos ripping enemies apart (titanias razorflies). Its just visuals. In the end its just a game. Abilities are made to look cool.

 

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Especially considering that Caliban evidentially fits exactly into the definition of the 'Caster Frame' you're giving if you build him just so. No amount of 'You can clearly tell what he's meant to do!' can change the fact that even in end game content, Caliban can spam abilities to do damage if you really want him to.

Also I remember when Saryn was a caster-damage frame. Deciding to slot her into a different role because she's been power crept out of relevance doesn't change what her kit does, it only further emphasises the balance issue in terms of abilities vs weapons.

Caliban is not a caster. Just because Husain Bolt can drive a car doesnt make him a racer. Saryn was reworked to make her more active again proving that DE prefers weapon gameplay over abilities. Abilities are meant to support weapons not the other way around.

 

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm just saying, if you want a frame to stake your claim that DE really wants to keep frames as fitting into strict categories, then Dante probably isn't your best choice. Honestly none of the past couple year's frames are shining examples of frames that fit into a specific role. Qorvex has tons of Tanking options and tons of damage, Dagath fits into the 'weapons platform' except she also pulls out one of if not the biggest base damage in the whole game with her 4 and access to scaling damage via her 2, Citrine summons a turret and debuffs enemies considerably on top of her support moveset and Jade has an exalted weapon that deals substantial damage as an aside to her support options too. None are as clear cut as frames like Trinity, Rhino or Excalibur - or other such older frames.

Frames can fit multiple roles, think of it as multiclassing. It doesnt change the fact that DE is making clear that they want the opposite of what you want.

[PublikDomain]

10 hours ago, dwqrf said:

One spell taken away doesn't change the three others spells, the passive and the stats of the frame, because again : context.

You can helminth Shield recovery in inaros, that won't make him a Shield gater abuser.

Yeah well here's the thing. Despite your strong insistence, most frames are already able to do a bunch of different things. Give Volt his Shock Trooper augment and subsume Speed for Roar and wow now the fast guy is a weapon platform. Can't even go fast anymore. You can subsume Whipclaw off of Khora for another CC ability and make her pure CC. You can subsume Merulina off of Yareli and give her an armor strip and make her a DPS. You can take this "context" y'all have imagined for yourselves and just throw it away. Because that's how little this "context" matters. And that's by DE's own design.

7 hours ago, kuciol said:

Frames can fit multiple roles, think of it as multiclassing.

Unless it's a role you don't think it should have? 🤔

[4thBro]

 

Jesus... What an absolute shocker...

 

10 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Bye bye losing bro. Don't worry about garbage in the topic, we know you will come back with some more.

Like I said, not even myself and a moderator could bring this thread back on topic. You even READ my post, and still chose to avoid answering it, and chose to remain off-topic instead. I didn't choose that for you. That was your own choice. And that was the loss. That was you admitting that you did not like your own answer to my question, and decided not to continue along with that sequence of dialogue because it would not reflect well on you.

 

10 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Is that.... Strawmaning ??? Who would have guessed. Ha !

Nobody would have guessed.

Because that wasn't strawmanning.

 

You have said... probably at least TWENTY TIMES in this thread that WF is exactly the way you want it.

Are you really going to make me go quote every single time you said it? Are you really going to pretend like you didn't??? In front of EVERYONE here, you're going to pretend like you didn't say the thing that you've probably said the most in this thread???

 

 

 

 

Come on, guys. Can we just stop? I... LITERALLY do not know how it could be more clear that they aren't being genuine. Apart from them outright saying, "Yeah haha we've been trolling you this whole time!"