Why does Gloom have 95% Slowdown?

[vixenpixel]

I wouldn't be opposed to gloom nerf. I only use it on banshee anyway. But if reason is that it slows down spawn im sorry to say you will be equally annoyed at s 60% slow. Its just annoying misuse of ability. Same ad wisp electric mote on defense map

[Binket_]

1 hour ago, insanitybit said:

I don't think I've ever even seen a Gloom. This feels like a reaction to a bunch of new people playing Sevagoth, which is a temporary situation that won't last.

No, I've seen it plenty before Sevagoth Prime got released.
If anything, I've been seeing it more as a result-- which yes, may be a factor.
... but it's been an issue for a while. A long while at that.

It's like... adding more fire to a burning building won't put it out or something.
^{The problem does not get solved by making the problem bigger.}

 

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

people have better choices than a slow or life steal on hit; but they may use Gloom as much as needed, if needed, until then.

• Excalibur can be obtained from Mars' Lech Kril boss. (Radial Blind)
• Rhino can be obtained from Venus' Jackal boss. (Roar)
• Mag can be obtained from Phobos' Sergeant joke-fight. (Pull)
  • I also refuse to believe anyone can struggle in any capacity with that fight.
    The crewmen to get to him are more difficult.
• Nova can obtained from Europa's Raptor boss. (Null Star)
• Valkyr can be obtained for Jupiter's Alad V boss. (War Cry)
• Banshee, Volt, Nezha and Wukong can all equally be obtained from a Dojo with next to no hassle. (Silence, Shock, Fire Walker and Defy respectively.)
• Nyx can be obtained from the Phorid Invasions. (Mind Control)
  • While not permanently around, it takes very little to complete when it is... and it usually is an option.

If your argument was "They may have not have better options YET."-- that's outright wrong.
All of these are examples of Warframes that are not only easier to obtain, but are also obtainable before one even finishes their Railjack.
Unless you've been gifted a spare Sevagoth from another player or simply bought it yourself.
However, in that case, every Warframe becomes equally valid choices. There's far better picks as a result. 

If you argument is "They can, so let them"...
... Do I have to really have to remind you of the phrase "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should?"
I can make your life a living hell, but that sounds like a waste of everyone's time and sounds fun to only the most petty of sadists.
Why would any rational person do that? Why would you do that?

 

There's more choices as well, even outside of Helminth.

• Life Strike can be obtained as early as Earth's DarkSector Defense. (Lifesteal on Heavy Attack)
• Taxon's Artax inflicts a forced Cold Proc.
  • Nautilus Prime also exists now to get Verglas Prime, arguably the best form of that.
  • If one wishes to, they could also obtain Shivering Contagion from a trade extremely easily.
    This extends to Cold spread to a much greater length.
• Guardian is a mod that drops from Orokin Drones. (Full Shield restore when depleted.)
• Squad Restoratives, even if there's a cooldown involved. (This applies to Health, Shields, Energy and Ammo.)

Just to name a few picks for Survivability. All of which can be obtained very early, as early as when you start Venus.
I've had an alt-account for starting anew, I blitzed through the entire game using a base Volt with a base Vectis with very little issue.
Forced myself to MR5 for the entire thing. Only going into MR8 halfway through Steel Path because I was getting of lugging around a Foundry full of Warframes.

You want Survivability? Follow Piccolo's training regime! (DODGE!)

 

1 hour ago, vixenpixel said:

But if reason is that it slows down spawn im sorry to say you will be equally annoyed at s 60% slow. Its just annoying misuse of ability. Same ad wisp electric mote on defense map

I'm well aware. Wisp's Electric Motes are another one that's on my list of things to address, but a much lower priority.

The thing is that misuse of the ability isn't justification for keeping it around.
Balance doesn't always account for "Who uses what"-- it should also account for what it accomplishes in practice.
Some stuff gets nerfed or buffed not because of how many use it, but because it may be disruptive to gameplay or new ideas surface to refine an old idea.

Sometimes people abuse a tactic or ability because all other options are insufficient.
They HAVE to do it because it's put them too much at a disadvantage otherwise. This is mostly seen in PvP situations.
If this were the case in Warframe? I'd be inclined to agree that nerfing Gloom is stupid-- but it'd just be the mirror opposite of the issue at hand.
However, Warframe has no shortage of options. If anything, there may be reason to say there's too many options.
^{But that's neither here nor there.}

Other times people abuse a tactic or ability because it ensures there no counterplay one can use.
While also often seen in PvP situations, this one is a result of poor balance and leads into the former.
It's often associated with exploits and gets patched as a result. Sometimes with punishment for it's users if the exploit was severe or malicious enough.
... but most times, it's just an oversight and it's usually addressed quickly with some tuning. Be it for better or worse.
Gloom somewhat goes into this territory, but it's not the only one in this pool of problems.

If everyone's solution to every single problem is "lmao, just don't look at it"-- why are we surprised when it bites in the butt later?
The solution is that DE needs to tweak it's numbers. No excuses.
It's been shown that players can't behave, so their toys must be taken away so to speak.

If players abuse an ability (or an ability is just naturally abusable), why is the solution anything but "correct the issue at it's source?"
"Players can't abuse an ability if the ability doesn't have anything to abuse."
If it works for everyone's reaction to Stealth _{(or a problem that isn't violence in general)}, it will work here as well.

 

 

But if all this isn't enough still to satisfy people?

Lemme put it this way:
Constantly dying as a player is less of a problem than having someone using Gloom in the squad-- that is our current level of power in the game.
By all accounts of logic, the only way to explain us ever getting here is "People were dumb and ignored the problem."
So do we perpetuate the problem for the few morons who couldn't be bothered to learn something new? ... or do we FINALLY do something about it?

[dwqrf]

il y a 14 minutes, Binket_ a dit :

I can make your life a living hell, but that sounds like a waste of everyone's time and sounds fun to only the most petty of sadists.
Why would any rational person do that? Why would you do that?

I don't know bro, I don't know...

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, insanitybit said:

I don't think I've ever even seen a Gloom. This feels like a reaction to a bunch of new people playing Sevagoth, which is a temporary situation that won't last.

There are definitely many more people using Gloom right now than I've seen in a long time.  And I fully expect most of that to go away shortly.

  But if you've never never ever ever seen anybody using it, it makes me wonder if you only play solo.  Or whether you should perhaps have your eyesight checked. :P

:P

[Bratty_Child]

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Is "Slowing the mission down to a crawl" not a good enough point as is?

• And/or making spawn rates miserable in a game that is already struggling with that?

Exactly keep running and gun them. Are you not playing the game?

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

 

• So if people only want the Slowdown, why is it such a highly abusable cap?
  • Naturally, my initial thought is "they can't live without it" and that's... sad.
    It's also a lie, they absolutely can. They just don't want to because NOBODY in this game dares take genuine advice from others!
    • Deadly sin, that. Who would dare tell the king what to do? 
      ^{Did you also know "Pride" is a deadly sin? Hmmm... something doesn't add up there....}

Immersing in power fantasy of being Quicksilver. If you have given out precious "advice" does that mean people also have to heed to it? What kind of rambling of kings and living with or without you even imposing on?

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

 

• The Energy Consumption is pitifully small, considering the existence of Synth Deconstruct and Violet Archon Shards (or Equilibrium).

For just Gloom. Maybe, but that's ignoring Sevagoth and the subsumed frame has any other ability that they need to cast with. Ideal Energize performance would give 10e/s and Equilibrium require you to keep killing enemy to keep it up which contradict with the stalling and slowdown you've been mentioning, unless its dispensary which give you twice the consumption, but that already restricted the pick to just 2 frames and they are cast heavy gameplay. Very nice.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

 

• Hard to design to content around an ability that makes it kinda redundant.

DE don't particularly design or curate on most challenge on how it should be solved. They chose the approach good enough general design and the particular ability ain't at fault for it.

 

 

I ain't reading all of your commentary but the only relevant buffnerf for Gloom is for it to be LoS based rather than lowering its slow cap ceiling. Shivering Contagion + Duplex bond would lock down area where you are not even at, and they can inflict frozen rather than just slow. 

Edited August 26 by Bratty_Child

[Bratty_Child]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

There are definitely many more people using Gloom right now than I've seen in a long time.  And I fully expect most of that to go away shortly.

  But if you've never never ever ever seen anybody using it, it makes me wonder if you only play solo.  Or whether you should perhaps have your eyesight checked. :P

:P

People when they found safe space and actually using it? No way? Solo gamer? No more Zarr Slam Wukong and Gloom user?

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

 Or whether you should perhaps have your eyesight checked. :P

But that's the issue. People can play Warframe just fine and have fun without being upset -and needing to notice- what others players are doing.

Every now and then, there is forums' topic about : They kill enemies too quick ; They buff me too much ; or in this case ; They debuff the enemies too strongly.

Weither it's speed, damage, slow, or ragdoll, whatever you can give to allies or take from enemies ; people making this kind of topic are just upset other players are playing the game as well. They want to play a public game with 3 others players not doing anything, and letting them do all the work. Why ? For their ego ? Why do you need to play public if you are so hurt when other actually participate and do their things ?

Other players are going to use everything in their power to kill, buff, or debuff. That's what the game is about.

The mob density of solo sp is the same as squad ; so if you really want to find hordes by yourself, you can. But then nobody is watching you doing it, boohoo.

 

[Tiltskillet]

15 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But that's the issue.

I don't know, that's close to a non sequitur for me.  I think not caring or at least not getting bent out of shape is an entirely different thing than not seeing.    Not that I particularly want to argue seriously about a joke.

18 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

The mob density of solo sp is the same as squad ; so if you really want to find hordes by yourself, you can.

And I do.

And FWIW, I do think Gloom should have penalties on frames other than Sevagoth.  But I don't agree with the OP that it should be a huge nerf or that the reason it needs to happen is because Gloom can be annoying.   IMO all abilities should be significantly better on paper on their native frames: nerfed on the others in some cases, buffed on the native frame in some cases, and both in some cases.  Solo or squad is beside the point AFAIC.

[_Anise_]

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

I think it's obnoxious as hell because I am getting hit BY the consequences.

trust me I am on your side about this, I think it's frustrating when someone pops it on defense and keeps it on passively, there are some niche cases where maybe it's ok if the defense target is taking heavy damage and we are playing on steel path or something.

I just don't agree the solution is to change the ability, I'd rather they make attractive alternative healminth options rather than them adding yet another way to generate energy in the healminth system.

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Honestly, you're looking for a strawman. Stop that.

What specific strawman are you referring to?

In my opinion, capping the slow below 80% would make survival more problematic specially if they still need the same amount of str to reach the cap. However, if you were advocating for a range cap for the Helminth, that would make more sense to me. This would require players to balance strength and range, forcing them to find a compromise between the two, to achieve the distance and slow they want for the ability.

While I still believe Gloom is fine as it is and doesn't need changing, your original suggestion seems to me more like an attempt to undermine the ability than seeking a rational solution to what you perceive as a problem.

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Cool, you may not-- be it preference or simply incompetence.
... but I also know for a FACT it's anything but difficult to get that.

Now who's creating a strawman? I never stated it was difficult to get I was merely responding to your defamatory assumptions about my playstyle. Your entire demeanor seems quite aggressive, from your dismissive responses to your use of memes. I feel that's maybe not doing you any favors to help your feedback get taken seriously.

Edited August 26 by _Anise_

[vixenpixel]

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

No, I've seen it plenty before Sevagoth Prime got released.
If anything, I've been seeing it more as a result-- which yes, may be a factor.
... but it's been an issue for a while. A long while at that.

It's like... adding more fire to a burning building won't put it out or something.
^{The problem does not get solved by making the problem bigger.}

 

• Excalibur can be obtained from Mars' Lech Kril boss. (Radial Blind)
• Rhino can be obtained from Venus' Jackal boss. (Roar)
• Mag can be obtained from Phobos' Sergeant joke-fight. (Pull)
  • I also refuse to believe anyone can struggle in any capacity with that fight.
    The crewmen to get to him are more difficult.
• Nova can obtained from Europa's Raptor boss. (Null Star)
• Valkyr can be obtained for Jupiter's Alad V boss. (War Cry)
• Banshee, Volt, Nezha and Wukong can all equally be obtained from a Dojo with next to no hassle. (Silence, Shock, Fire Walker and Defy respectively.)
• Nyx can be obtained from the Phorid Invasions. (Mind Control)
  • While not permanently around, it takes very little to complete when it is... and it usually is an option.

If your argument was "They may have not have better options YET."-- that's outright wrong.
All of these are examples of Warframes that are not only easier to obtain, but are also obtainable before one even finishes their Railjack.
Unless you've been gifted a spare Sevagoth from another player or simply bought it yourself.
However, in that case, every Warframe becomes equally valid choices. There's far better picks as a result. 

If you argument is "They can, so let them"...
... Do I have to really have to remind you of the phrase "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should?"
I can make your life a living hell, but that sounds like a waste of everyone's time and sounds fun to only the most petty of sadists.
Why would any rational person do that? Why would you do that?

 

There's more choices as well, even outside of Helminth.

• Life Strike can be obtained as early as Earth's DarkSector Defense. (Lifesteal on Heavy Attack)
• Taxon's Artax inflicts a forced Cold Proc.
  • Nautilus Prime also exists now to get Verglas Prime, arguably the best form of that.
  • If one wishes to, they could also obtain Shivering Contagion from a trade extremely easily.
    This extends to Cold spread to a much greater length.
• Guardian is a mod that drops from Orokin Drones. (Full Shield restore when depleted.)
• Squad Restoratives, even if there's a cooldown involved. (This applies to Health, Shields, Energy and Ammo.)

Just to name a few picks for Survivability. All of which can be obtained very early, as early as when you start Venus.
I've had an alt-account for starting anew, I blitzed through the entire game using a base Volt with a base Vectis with very little issue.
Forced myself to MR5 for the entire thing. Only going into MR8 halfway through Steel Path because I was getting of lugging around a Foundry full of Warframes.

You want Survivability? Follow Piccolo's training regime! (DODGE!)

 

I'm well aware. Wisp's Electric Motes are another one that's on my list of things to address, but a much lower priority.

The thing is that misuse of the ability isn't justification for keeping it around.
Balance doesn't always account for "Who uses what"-- it should also account for what it accomplishes in practice.
Some stuff gets nerfed or buffed not because of how many use it, but because it may be disruptive to gameplay or new ideas surface to refine an old idea.

Sometimes people abuse a tactic or ability because all other options are insufficient.
They HAVE to do it because it's put them too much at a disadvantage otherwise. This is mostly seen in PvP situations.
If this were the case in Warframe? I'd be inclined to agree that nerfing Gloom is stupid-- but it'd just be the mirror opposite of the issue at hand.
However, Warframe has no shortage of options. If anything, there may be reason to say there's too many options.
^{But that's neither here nor there.}

Other times people abuse a tactic or ability because it ensures there no counterplay one can use.
While also often seen in PvP situations, this one is a result of poor balance and leads into the former.
It's often associated with exploits and gets patched as a result. Sometimes with punishment for it's users if the exploit was severe or malicious enough.
... but most times, it's just an oversight and it's usually addressed quickly with some tuning. Be it for better or worse.
Gloom somewhat goes into this territory, but it's not the only one in this pool of problems.

If everyone's solution to every single problem is "lmao, just don't look at it"-- why are we surprised when it bites in the butt later?
The solution is that DE needs to tweak it's numbers. No excuses.
It's been shown that players can't behave, so their toys must be taken away so to speak.

If players abuse an ability (or an ability is just naturally abusable), why is the solution anything but "correct the issue at it's source?"
"Players can't abuse an ability if the ability doesn't have anything to abuse."
If it works for everyone's reaction to Stealth _{(or a problem that isn't violence in general)}, it will work here as well.

 

 

But if all this isn't enough still to satisfy people?

Lemme put it this way:
Constantly dying as a player is less of a problem than having someone using Gloom in the squad-- that is our current level of power in the game.
By all accounts of logic, the only way to explain us ever getting here is "People were dumb and ignored the problem."
So do we perpetuate the problem for the few morons who couldn't be bothered to learn something new? ... or do we FINALLY do something about it?

I only mean to respond to the idea that misuse doesn't excuse an ability being disruptive. Does this mean you belong to the ppl who wants a volt speed nerf? 

I think it is everything. You can't nerf an entire ability on the off chance that you happen to come across a player misusing it at the detriment of their squad.

[dwqrf]

il y a 47 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

I don't know, that's close to a non sequitur for me.  I think not caring or at least not getting bent out of shape is an entirely different thing than not seeing.    Not that I particularly want to argue seriously about a joke.

Well, I just allow myself to suppose that if you don't really care, you may not even notice what other people are doing. As long as the mission go smoothly, I'm fine with it. If there is issue with completing the mission, then I start to look what's going on wrong ; but not before.

And that's why OP also has a point in this : a huge AoE slow may be detrimental to the speed of completion of a defense ; but in an interception, mobile defense, alchemy, whatever ; there is no where any possible issue with slowing enemies down. So the issue with Gloom is extremely situationnal, it's only with a high range, high power, high energy efficiency, and small defense map, with a team of afk not willing to click on red dots, that the issue arise.

Does Gloom deserves a nerf just because of that ? I think not ; but I agree it may annoy someone. But it does NOT put the mission in a failure state. It's just his perception of "how fast should this mission" that's tickled ; while the player playing gloom thinks about "how safe this is making it". Nobody said a defense mission should be quick ; in fact, we all know it's really long and boring, hence the popularity of speedva mostly to counter that ; even though speedva might even make the mission more dangerous ; but it fit in the higher risk/higher reward scenario ; why would the contrary be a issue ?

Thing is, if a player playing Gloom annoys you so much ; you can still ask him (politely) to deactivate it ; as I often do with Wisp using electric motes ; or you know ; just leave.

In this, the issue itself is in the number of waves to complete a rotation of defense. It should be 4 waves, or even 3, and then this kind of problems would vanish.

 

il y a 47 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

 IMO all abilities should be significantly better on paper on their native frames: nerfed on the others in some cases, buffed on the native frame in some cases, and both in some cases.

Do you think Helminth abilities, or Frames themselves, (or both), should have a helminth disposition ?

Edited August 26 by dwqrf

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I agree it may annoy someone. But it does NOT put the mission in a failure state. It's just his perception of "how fast should this mission" that's tickled

Talk to the OP about this.

11 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Do think Helminth abilities, or Frames themselves, should have a helminth disposition ?

Oh hell no.  What a mess that would be.

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Talk to the OP about this.

I'm not sure he really cares.

il y a 3 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Oh hell no.  What a mess that would be.

il y a 57 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

 IMO all abilities should be significantly better on paper on their native frames: nerfed on the others in some cases, buffed on the native frame in some cases, and both in some cases. 

So just plain watered down helminthed abilities compared to the "normal" version ? I don't have a issue with it ; as I'm often a Roar player and that's juste the base case for me. That would solve a weird weak design for new frames anticipating the multi abuse all across the board. But that's meaning nerfing over 50 abilities and people are not ready for that.

[Tiltskillet]

28 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

I'm not sure he really cares.

Maybe. But Binket could hardly care less than I care for having a side-discussion with you about Binket's opinions.

33 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But that's meaning nerfing over 50 abilities and people are not ready for that.

I didn't say "just nerfing.". But realistically I doubt the players or DE are ready for it in any form. 

I never signed a contract to only express realistic hopes for this game though. 

[dwqrf]

il y a 24 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Maybe. But Binket could hardly care less than I care for having a side-discussion with you about Binket's opinions.

My brain hurts.

But my point still stand ; Gloom is not that broken or that annoying, or that popular that it deserves a nerf. I'd even argue that Equinox's Peaceful Provocation needs a buff.

il y a 24 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

I never signed a contract to only express realistic hopes for this game though. 

Fair enough. I was just curious, you delivered.

[Binket_]

3 hours ago, Bratty_Child said:

Exactly keep running and gun them. Are you not playing the game?

Are you? Some dude running off from the group in a Relic mission is annoying enough as is.
Than they go ahead and use Gloom so now it's not only barren where the rest of the players are, but all the reactant is elsewhere.

These kinds of situations aren't rare and the issue is (I assumed before this post) widely known.
^{I mean, I would figure it's widely known-- but god forbid sense be made in 2024.}

Before you say "Well, go over to them!"
They moved once, they'll likely do it again... and keep doing it until they're the solitary schmuck getting all the targets.

3 hours ago, Bratty_Child said:

If you have given out precious "advice" does that mean people also have to heed to it?

"No, don't walk into the spike pit! You'll lose all your progress and get really mad!"
... and than they do it anyway, getting mad at me for saying that maybe shouldn't.

You're right. It isn't advice. It's basic insight of the most obvious level.
Yet here I am...

3 hours ago, Bratty_Child said:

Ideal Energize performance would give 10e/s and Equilibrium require you to keep killing enemy to keep it up which contradict with the stalling and slowdown you've been mentioning

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Synth_Deconstruct
There are Health Orbs all over the place. Pick them up.

Even if only 1-in-4 enemies drop Health Orbs, your companion just needs to damage them once.
Usually quite easy to do if your Companion is active in any measure.

Sentinels can use Helstrum or Verglas (with Shivering Contagion and/or Gas).
Hounds and MOAs will be mobile and have their own effects to prime enemies.
The other picks of Vulpaphylas and Kavats often have some kind of effect going on.
All they have to do is simply DAMAGE the enemy once.

Also, Eximus Units- of which have Overguard- drop x2 Health Orbs and/or Energy Orbs worth 50 Energy.
^{https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Pickups#Orbs for info on that.}

3 hours ago, Bratty_Child said:

to be LoS based rather than lowering its slow cap ceiling

Honestly, why not both?
Can't deny it's a bit braindead as it stands anyway.
^{That little "I wanna be Quicksilver!" thing you mentioned earlier fits Molecular Prime more if anything.}

I could stand having it even at 50% slow IF it's LoS, but I figured from the recent Dante fiasco that wouldn't fly.
^{If people let DE actually finish their LoS fixes, it'd likely be a lot more tolerable. Oh well.}

Shivering Contagion + Duplex Bond may effect other rooms...
But most times those copies do not last long enough and do not travel far enough to do that much of an effect.
If they are anyway, you're likely in an empty room-- because they only fight the nearest enemy they can detect... and only shoot within LoS.

3 hours ago, Bratty_Child said:

People when they found safe space and actually using it?

Ah, but it's fine when it's to trample on the people actually capable of socializing?
I see, I see...

 

 

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

They want to play a public game with 3 others players not doing anything

As I've said before, so long as it's not causing problems for other people? I don't care what other people are running.
If it were as simple as asking them to not do "XYZ", nobody would need to make those posts at all-- but that's not the reality we live in.

No, the real issue is that we're tired of asking players and getting nowhere... so we have to pray to DE that something will happen about it.
I know some folks don't like my Volt's Speed, but I wish more of them would mention that in advance so I can avoid annoying them.
... but as shown here? I seem to be some ineffable enigma, a paragon of oddities and master of speaking in ciphers.

A "mystery", I keep forgetting I'm talking to the equal of Reddit most times.
^{Oh, hive mind of the common opinion. What omens do you bring today?}

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

The mob density of solo sp is the same as squad ; so if you really want to find hordes by yourself, you can. But then nobody is watching you doing it, boohoo.

Well, if you're so insistent on playing Solo? Why don't I just send you back to your abyssal crypt, ya ghoul?
^{Nicer than telling you to back to your rock, I suppose.}

I don't mind playing with others-- scratch that, I enjoy it!
It's quite fun seeing synergy between teammates pop up, being able to tackle enemies in new ways.

Besides- again- if I wanted to play Solo? There's better games out there.
More stable, more rapid and more complex games than this.
But they don't offer multiplayer, now do they?

Why are you even here still? If it's that easy to go Solo, go trot around giving no opinion.
Clearly nobody is stopping you from isolating from every human connection so you can POTENTIALLY avoid a single harsh word or two.
... but we both know that's a silly thing to say. Make me repeat myself again and I'll be much, much less nice about it!
Capiche?

 

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

I'd rather they make attractive alternative healminth options

THEY. HAVE. DONE. THAT. ALREADY.
^{Do I need to jingle more keys or can I trust this one to register?}

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

What specific strawman are you referring to?

I explained the Heavy Gunner thing already.
I'm not going to type it again. Scroll back and use your eyes this time.

Like in many dungeon-crawler games, if you did it right the first time-- you wouldn't need to backtrack five times over.
Stop for a second, consider the clues... and THAN move on.

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

your original suggestion seems to me more like an attempt to undermine the ability than seeking a rational solution to what you perceive as a problem.

Personally? If this weren't such a contentious ability that has caused many months of issue? I might be inclined to believe that.
I ALSO know DE enough. They'll listen to just about every wrong opinion. _{(There is no decent explanation for the Jackal specifically in Circuit. None.)}

In that sense, it'd likely be better to aim it a bit lower knowing they'll likely try for some abstract middle-ground.
... but that's my better judgement speaking. Personally, if I had the source code? I'd ask myself how drunk I was to consider making it to begin with!
^{Best part? I don't drink. Though considering the people I run into, you think I would. Maybe I should! No, I won't actually.}

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

I never stated it was difficult to get I was merely responding to your defamatory assumptions about my playstyle.

Oh, might've jumped to conclusions in that case.
... but I could fully believe you intended to say it was difficult.

People I've seen in Warframe constantly remind me that I overestimate them.
Despite the fact that my expectations may as well be a deep-sea creature with how far I've lowered them.
^{I keep asking those expectations to tell the Titanic I said hello, but I think they're too busy trying to get there.}

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

Your entire demeanor seems quite aggressive

YOU TRY DEALING WITH THESE DEEP-SEA CREATURES OF BAFFLING INEPTITUDE FOR MONTHS ON END.
SEE HOW WELL YOU TAKE IT! I'LL BE SURPRISED IF YOU LAST A WEEK.

I've been merely mentioning the ones ingame doing this nonsense-- but it doesn't change the fact that people are also like this IRL!
Though, if it's similar reasons is based on context.

... but hey, if you got a problem? Get in line, I assure you most of that line will be people I have to deal with in business sense.
Last I checked? I'm paid to give those sacks of meat a "retail smile", feel free to send a check in the mail and I'll consider trying it on you too!
^{Results may vary, conditions apply.}

Either way, my first choice to get things done isn't "wrathful flames and hellbent fury".
Efforts otherwise have kinda gotten nowhere fast though, so c'est le vie.

 

3 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

I only mean to respond to the idea that misuse doesn't excuse an ability being disruptive. Does this mean you belong to the ppl who wants a volt speed nerf?

As a Volt player myself, I would genuinely be fine with the ability to avoid buffing specific players who can't handle the speed.
I would know about the issues, I'm not blind. Nor am I heartless either.
Sometimes players have a specific Melee speed they want and/or it collides them into walls too often.

A long, long time ago-- cancelling Melee animations was best done with an Ability.
Volt's Speed made that easily done since there was no animation involved with it.
It's one use I had for it, but I also realized it may cause issues for others.
However, I also played around it. I gauged my range and kept my finger off the button if I saw they were in range.

Being aware of others isn't a sin. Rather it's something more people should be doing.
I'm no saint though, I'm not gonna pretend I've been perfect about it.
... but you'd think people would be more inclined to LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES.

Unfortunately, not everyone is so keen on letting others have fun as well.
So, what can you do except address the core of the issue.
If players cannot be expected to play nice on their own, you'll have to make it far more difficult to play nasty.

 

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

but I agree it may annoy someone. But it does NOT put the mission in a failure state.

In some cases it can, like the aforementioned Survival.
Life Support drops can be clogged up, just like any other drop.

As for missions life Defense, Interception and otherwise?
Perhaps not outright mission failure, but are really joining an Interception mission just so you look at your character's idle animation for a dozen minutes or so?

If your answer is yes... wow, you could be satisfied with a spinning dial! That or you're a shameless creep. _{(Both could apply, really.)}
If your answer is no! Congrats, you now know why I find these kinda arguments to be repetitive.

You are playing a Looter-Shooter with Movement and Action elements as the focus.
By the nature of the genre itself, you're kinda meant to do something in a mission.

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Do you think Helminth abilities, or Frames themselves, (or both), should have a helminth disposition ?

DO NOT.

Last thing we need is DE adding more arbitrary "disposition" nonsense they'll get too lazy to adjust.
Do not even utter the idea of that. I don't even want to chance that as a possibility.

 

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Maybe. But Binket could hardly care less than I care for having a side-discussion with you about Binket's opinions.

"If you're gonna treat me like a Fae Creature, you may as well give me your name so I can respond in kind."
~ Old DnD campaign quote.

Most of annoyance in this very topic stems from feeling like no matter how much I explain it? It gets no further.
As if every thing I can possibly ALWAYS has to go sour, always in degrees I can't account for.

So yes, pardon me being a bit grumpy when I have to keep explaining this stuff.
Doesn't help that I have to keep revising it because I always tell myself "No, remember who you're talking to."
^{Is it wrong to want to talk without feeling like I have to dumb every word down? Yes, the answer is always yes. Despite my wishes of course.}

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I never signed a contract to only express realistic hopes for this game though.

I'm tempted to get that framed on a wall. _{(Or some variant of it)}
Mostly because it's applicable to things outside of Warframe too.
Also to remind people that pure optimism is why safety labels exist.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 1 heure, Binket_ a dit :

Ah, but it's fine when it's to trample on the people actually capable of socializing?
I see, I see...

As I've said before, so long as it's not causing problems for other people? I don't care what other people are running.
If it were as simple as asking them to not do "XYZ", nobody would need to make those posts at all-- but that's not the reality we live in.

No, the real issue is that we're tired of asking players and getting nowhere... so we have to pray to DE that something will happen about it.
I know some folks don't like my Volt's Speed, but I wish more of them would mention that in advance so I can avoid annoying them.
... but as shown here? I seem to be some ineffable enigma, a paragon of oddities and master of speaking in ciphers.

Well, if you're so insistent on playing Solo? Why don't I just send you back to your abyssal crypt, ya ghoul?
^{Nicer than telling you to back to your rock, I suppose.}

I don't mind playing with others-- scratch that, I enjoy it!
It's quite fun seeing synergy between teammates pop up, being able to tackle enemies in new ways.

Besides- again- if I wanted to play Solo? There's better games out there.
More stable, more rapid and more complex games than this.
But they don't offer multiplayer, now do they?

Why are you even here still? If it's that easy to go Solo, go trot around giving no opinion.
Clearly nobody is stopping you from isolating from every human connection so you can POTENTIALLY avoid a single harsh word or two.
... but we both know that's a silly thing to say. Make me repeat myself again and I'll be much, much less nice about it!
Capiche?

Well, I'm not the one actively complaining, being extremely salty, and insulting everyone. Here goes your social skills.

And I did ask you to change your opinion about the way you handle the kind of thing ; did you consider making a effort toward the rest of the world ? But yet you expect people to bend to you will. It doesn't work that way. Yup, reality.

So now your only answer is to pray to the god DE to change the game to your own ideals. Hu. Most simple solution would be to be more tolerant but I guess it's a stretch for you. I play public every single day, and I have a blast. And if you try to do too, be careful, you will encounter people like me having fun. Beware it might hinder your ability to be happy !

You can play as a squad with friends, premade, or even leave any disturbing group you meet. Or solo. You have so many options ; but you don't even consider those. You want to play publics games, and have everyone and everything play as you want. It's a bit selfish, nah ? After Gloom is gone, you'll find ways to complain about the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing, until nothing is left but you.

Don't be that guy and suck it up. I believe you may come to the forums and try to do constructive feedback about something that's broken, abused, and have a open mind about what others think. And if there is a consensus about something being disruptive, it will be known and dealt with. It doesn't feel like it's the case here. Gloom has its issue, but there is a lot of other things that many people could complain about ; and usually they do, but it's often just one angry opinion lost in a sea of people enjoying things.
 

Il y a 1 heure, Binket_ a dit :

... but you'd think people would be more inclined to LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES.

Can you ?


 

[vixenpixel]

13 hours ago, Binket_ said:

As a Volt player myself, I would genuinely be fine with the ability to avoid buffing specific players who can't handle the speed.
I would know about the issues, I'm not blind. Nor am I heartless either.
Sometimes players have a specific Melee speed they want and/or it collides them into walls too often.

A long, long time ago-- cancelling Melee animations was best done with an Ability.
Volt's Speed made that easily done since there was no animation involved with it.
It's one use I had for it, but I also realized it may cause issues for others.
However, I also played around it. I gauged my range and kept my finger off the button if I saw they were in range.

Being aware of others isn't a sin. Rather it's something more people should be doing.
I'm no saint though, I'm not gonna pretend I've been perfect about it.
... but you'd think people would be more inclined to LEARN THEIR MISTAKES.

Unfortunately, not everyone is so keen on letting others have fun FROMas well.
So, what can you do except address the core of the issue.
If players cannot be expected to play nice on their own, you'll have to make it far more difficult to play nasty.

 

Gloom nerfed to what? And how would a partial nerf prevent the issue? What are you suggesting? An optional toggle upon starting pub missions where you as a player will not be able to join groups with gloom players or volt players maybe? 

How do you even come to the conclusion that gloom is the "core of the issue"? Isn't the lack of understanding, even competency of general players using gloom the actual 'core of the issue'? You are saying the ability is the issue but what you fail to do is prove that. From my point of view, there will always be abilities that offend someone. The other day a clanmate told me they were called out for killing everything in a relic fissure mission. It didn't matter what method they employed, it was the KPM that was the culprit. They are playing effectively in that case and it's offending someone because that person is being bored. It's very similar to this situation. People will be offended. That's a core truth of all online games. You might say, "well, then we remove gloom so people are not offended by it". Well, that person using gloom might bring Slowva next time. Thus, is the core of the issue the ability? Is it the ability to slow down enemies that is the issue? Should we remove cold status effects too? Should we just rework Nova's ultimate to be a speedbuff only? 

The only conclusion I can see is that the core of the issue is the player. I might have another opinion if it comes down to another issue but in this case they clearly just either don't know what they are doing to the integrity of the mission/gameplay OR trolling. In either case, the result is the same and it's their fault. Well, by extension it's also your fault for not convincing them to stop it. I don't know what method you are employing but by the arrogance you are imposing yourself in this thread, I can believe that they ignored you out of spite. The times I have suggested people to stop using an ability that hinders the mission, frustration in my wording has been the hallmark of failure while politeness have born positive results (generally speaking).

Permit me to make assumptions for a moment: The way you express yourself, I feel like you have lost faith in the ability of others to think for themselves. Your real reason for wanting to nerf "disruptive" abilities is mistrust in others' ability to make conscientious choices. It stems from frustration, certainly, but also a deep-seated arrogance based in your own conscientious decisions. You consider yourself above others (yes I know you will say that you don't but it is very apparent in the way you express yourself) and when you mention that you have made mistakes too, it's always with a wave-of-the-hand dismissal of the guilt therein. Because you "learn from mistakes" as opposed to the unnamed masses that join your games. I understand you are tired of it, I get it. It's annoying when missions are slowed down by people that should get it but don't. But in this case, the issue is clearly not gloom or any other singular disruptive ability, it is a flaw in tenno understanding. 

As even a 25% gloom would disrupt missions that are at all affected by gloom disruptiveness, ie defense and similar - obviously not exterminate missions for example, the very idea that gloom disrupt these is preposterous, I argue that the only way you would be able to see your will through is by a complete removal of all aoe slows in the game. A nerf would not rid you of this frustration.

But, the core of the issue is not the existence of these abilities, it is the misuse of them. I also would suggest that you find your voice again and ask people disrupting missions politely to not do it due to the disruptive nature of their gameplay. In fact, you might find success pre-composing the message and copy-pasting it into the mission chat - not only will it speed up the process but it will also allow you to say those things without letting frustration paint your verbiage. Yes, it's alot of work being a helpful tenno, but it beats being a whiny one. Both in result and reception. 

A nova player once shot me off the exit into oblivion and I respawned over 1000 metre from the exit. It was ridiculous (I laughed til my eyes teared up). Conclusion: now we need to remove the portal ability.

[Binket_]

15 hours ago, dwqrf said:

And I did ask you to change your opinion about the way you handle the kind of thing ; did you consider making a effort toward the rest of the world ?

I'm going to be blunt as I read this...

You are telling me the following:

• It's not a real issue, issues don't exist if you plug your ears!
• But you're not being extremely nice to me, so opinion invalidated!
• Evidence? Logic? Nah, you're just wrong!

Yeah, sure. Everything is hunky-dory, sunshine, rainbows and bliss when you say "not my problem" and the double it for the next person.
If that's not what you're saying? Cool, that's all I'm getting out of it.

But hey-- you know what I do to brick walls? Block them.
Should've done that sooner, actually. Thanks for the reminder.

 

3 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

Gloom nerfed to what? And how would a partial nerf prevent the issue?

For what it's worth? It's the most effective method to curb the problem.
If not that, completely halt it to a degree where it'd be very rare to see it as one.

The problem with certain abilities such as Volt's Speed is that if you restrict it too much? It can just become outright useless.
DE can change abilities for the better, but it's usually as a general overall tweak to the entire kit... or an outright revision of the Warframe entirely.
Examples include Yareli for the former, Ember and Hydroid for the latter.

Ideally, if you want a quick and relatively simple fix? Just adjusting some numbers will work.
They've done the same for Nourish. People still complained (because this is Warframe, people are dumb) but it's still very usable.
Arguably one could say they were too lenient on the Nourish nerf, but I'm still not 100% sure on that one-- so I don't really give two cents on that.

Gloom would be nice to have a LoS or such fixes that players have mentioned, but that usually doesn't go along with how DE does things.
DE usually does things in batches and I don't think Gloom is likely to be in any a common batch unless it's a nerf to ALL the usual meta abilities.
That's too much at one given time, I know how much backlash that would create. (Even if it would be healthier for the game as a whole.)

Than again, DE's office are governed by the forces of a Monkey's Paw.
Perhaps my post would make it be LoS by some weird Quantum-Superposition styled logic? 
I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility, even if it makes little sense to me as well.
^{If that sounds crazy? It is, but it's surprisingly accurate the more you look back on it. See also: Jackal in the Circuit.}

3 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

What are you suggesting? An optional toggle upon starting pub missions where you as a player will not be able to join groups with gloom players or volt players maybe?

While I wasn't suggesting that, I would not be against that in some future update.
In all honesty, it'd be pretty healthy for the social aspect of the game.
^{Especially as it stands now...}

I've seen so many gripes in Discords, Reddits, Twitch, etc. of people finding "XYZ" ability obnoxious.
Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for personal reasons, sometimes for just being flat out stubborn.
Some deal with it, some find it unbearable-- I've seen all kinds of folks.

... that being said, I'm not entirely agreeing with it based on personal experience.

If most people are going to (for the sake of argument) end up leaving a squad, getting frustrated or otherwise?
They'll likely end up either going solo or filtering through in a sour, bitter mood just to get to the game.
An option like this would at least assist in helping players avoid confrontation like this.

That way players that enjoy such obnoxious abilities would be paired with others like them.
A system of such would obviously take some work to code in.
... but I imagine the net benefit would be reasonable enough to include in a future "intermission" update.

 

Anyway, this is a bit off-topic though. Was good to bring up either way, because it is a good idea!
Just uhhh... not specifically here.

3 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

How do you even come to the conclusion that gloom is the "core of the issue"?

"Big constant slow is being a problem."
Solution: "Make it less slow."

I... don't understand where the confusion is there?
Perhaps in alternative solutions? As I mentioned, DE mechanisms for changing things is... weird.

I'd personally enjoy the idea of making MANY abilities locked to LoS such as Thermal Sunder and Silence-- but I also know the community.
Change too much at once and people riot. Changing the biggest offenders bits at a time in a way that can be feasible to wedge in an update is far more realistic of a thing to ask.

4 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

From my point of view, there will always be abilities that offend someone. The other day a clanmate told me they were called out for killing everything in a relic fissure mission. It didn't matter what method they employed, it was the KPM that was the culprit.

Oh, by all accounts-- I know Thermal Sunder (and many other abilities) are an issue as well.
Like I keep saying, Gloom is one of MANY culprits in this.

In fact, if I had to pick between Thermal Sunder getting a nerf and Gloom getting a nerf?
Using my better judgement, I'd say Thermal Sunder would be marginally less of a priority as there are SOME cool usages for it.

In addition, I have to ask... which seems easier to justify?

• Nerfing a notoriously negative ability now while slowly working on PROPER adjustments for a much bigger system?
• Ignoring all other forms of balance and focusing strictly on a single outdated system?

DE is aware of spawn-rate issues, they've alluded to it on some DevStreams and the like. I also understand it's partially linked to hardware limitations.
It's also why I said in the past a Mobile port was a terrible idea. N.Switch was already an eyebrow-raiser as is.
Because it's linked to such hardware limitations- and likely is something cannot go back from- trying to fix this issue is anything but a simple and elegant fix.

Nerfing Gloom isn't going to rain miracles upon the game, but it does however make an effort to slowly dial back the problem.
An effort that has more positives than it does negatives, with low effort to achieve such a result.
... Gloom is also just overtuned to begin with, really. We have weaker abilities get less potency from the Helminth. Just look at Lycath's Hunt as an example.

4 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

The only conclusion I can see is that the core of the issue is the player.

4 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

But, the core of the issue is not the existence of these abilities, it is the misuse of them.

In a certain perspective? You could say that.

However, I'm working within the confines of what is possible.
You can't change every single player's habit, that's just outright impossible without some dystopian nightmare plots. _{(And I don't think DE has that much power.)}
If you hypothetically could anyway? We wouldn't need a new updates, just default everyone to enjoying one singular item.

So I look to the "tools" they have instead. When I gauge all the possible options they have in a broader picture?
Gloom stands out as one of many outliers. One of which that can be easily adjusted with minimal consequence.

Comparatively to other abilities, Gloom is just as enjoyable on a per-user basis as any other ability... if we take opinions like "I just like it" into account.
I like Mag's Pull to a very odd amount, but I'm not gonna request it gets buffed because of that.

If I were to- for the sake of argument- ask for anything on "Pull" as an example?
It'd likely have to be something like how it interacts with more complex entities like the Murmur. _{(It often makes the ragdoll wildly in unpredictable ways, at seemingly random.)}
Especially since said issue can not only be obstructive to others, but the user as well. Since said Murmur can end up in very odd and often obstructive locations.

4 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

Permit me to make assumptions for a moment: The way you express yourself, I feel like you have lost faith in the ability of others to think for themselves. Your real reason for wanting to nerf "disruptive" abilities is mistrust in others' ability to make conscientious choices.

That is a major part of it, yes.

I've seen what people post on Overframe and the worst part is that people still use the jokes as if they were real.
No, not "ironically using it"-- I mean outright DEFENDING dumb choices.

"I use Primed Sure Footed on Lavos" is something I've heard more than one person say.
"His passive BLOCKS STAGGERS. You don't need it there!" I tell them, naturally.
"Yeah, but it's not constantly active!" they retort.
"If you can't find a single Health/Energy Orb from ANY target for more than 5 seconds? I think you have bigger problems."

I have seen this community evolve over several years.
Squad Chat itself used to be a lot more active, Region Chat used to be a bit more sane if you could believe it.
Now I get people who justify leaving with "somebody talked once" ever since Crossplay became a thing.
A simple thanks could be justification for leaving on a dime? Does that not strike anyone as odd?

Players have gotten gradually dumber or more anti-social/stubborn as time has gone on.
We used to have players that didn't fear being squishy, we could communicate with each other and cover each other's backs.
We used to have players that gauge their attacks, because missing an explosive meant instant death.
We used to have players that hated it when nukes became too aggressive, since we were used to have spawns aplenty even when we were strong.
We used to have players that were aware of their Energy Values and Ability Timers, resources weren't so easy to manifest back than.

Nowadays, I can run into a generic Star Chart mission and find the MR28 Revenant Prime with Phenmor making a clownshow out of himself.
"How do you die as something immortal?" I ask, they reply "I forgor to use 2."
How and why each individual "bit of social decay" for a lack of better word exists?
It contextually varies, but it usually stems from making things braindead.

This isn't something exclusive to Warframe either, I've seen this kind of thing happen before as well in other games.
Usually the more they dumb something down, the more "casuals" that join.
I say "casuals", but they're more players that are too dumb to look at the existing yellow paint on the strict road they're given.
^{Personally, when I refer to "casuals" in the more typical sense? I think players who enjoy the game enough to understand it, but aren't looking to be overachievers-- which is perfectly A-OK!}

"If this is the future we wanted, I can't help but wonder why they wanted it be so bleak." ~ An old friend's passive lament that stuck with me.

4 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

You consider yourself above others

I'll just reply with:
"I don't think I'm smart, everyone else just keeps lowering my expectations."

I don't like that phrase, I really don't like it. It sounds pretentious and I hate that so much.
... but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't have at least a bit of truth to it, y'know?

4 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

As even a 25% gloom would disrupt missions that are at all affected by gloom disruptiveness, ie defense and similar

If it were up to me? I'd take the slow out entirely and replace it with something more interesting to work with.
^{Doubling the Status Procs applied to effected enemies is just one of many ideas. Would pair nicely with Verglas and Epitaph, both used for Statuses and are associated with Sevagoth.}

Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before-- I've seen how this community evolves.
One thing that has stayed relatively consistent at best
^{... or has only gotten worse at... well... worst?}

Players seem to HATE the idea of "nerfs" for... arbitrary reasons it seems.
A sort of sentiment of "It's a PvE game, only PvP games need nerfs!"
Which is... bluntly put, self-destructive for any game to only buffs.
It's been around for a long while, but it's getting more obstructive the power creep keeps happening.

There's others, like DE's sentiments on changing abilities-- but I risk repeating myself again there.

5 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

A nova player once shot me off the exit into oblivion and I respawned over 1000 metre from the exit. It was ridiculous (I laughed til my eyes teared up). Conclusion: now we need to remove the portal ability.

Ah, Wormhole. I will say that is another ability that is quite disruptive.
Also one very apt for "of-it's-time" label.

I am partially glad most of the usage involving that has been relegated to "teehee chuckle" moments where it's not very obstructive.
Mostly because I'm big supporter of players being creative in their hijinks and Wormhole tends to do that well. Just so long as it's not disruptive. 
... but yes, I do acknowledge that it can be an issue.

I will say that both Wormhole and Switch Teleport tend to both be a lot harder to directly abuse compared to Gloom.
Glooms issues can happen even if the user isn't INTENDING to be a problem.
Wormhole and Switch Teleport often need far too much setup to be properly annoying.
Can they be abused? Absolutely and that could be something to look into!

For the moment? It's far less of a priority compared to more volatile options.
... I'd also push it away as a "to-do later" for when DE gets anywhere close to changing it.
As I believe there's a lot more that can be done with Wormhole to make it very interesting.
^{Something in the style's of Nova's Leverian could be fun to try! I'd have to tinker with the brainstorming myself though.}

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, Binket_ a dit :

I'm going to be blunt as I read this...

You are telling me the following:

• It's not a real issue, issues don't exist if you plug your ears!
• But you're not being extremely nice to me, so opinion invalidated!
• Evidence? Logic? Nah, you're just wrong!

Yeah, sure. Everything is hunky-dory, sunshine, rainbows and bliss when you say "not my problem" and the double it for the next person.
If that's not what you're saying? Cool, that's all I'm getting out of it.

Yeah, we clearly understood you can only understand whatever you want and not what other people say. It's crystal clear.
 

Il y a 18 heures, Binket_ a dit :

Ah, but it's fine when it's to trample on the people actually capable of socializing?

That's way above your abilities.

 

Il y a 18 heures, Binket_ a dit :

Why don't I just send you back to your abyssal crypt, ya ghoul?

Il y a 18 heures, Binket_ a dit :

YOU TRY DEALING WITH THESE DEEP-SEA CREATURES OF BAFFLING INEPTITUDE

You know what's warframe biggest issue ?

People like you.



 

Il y a 18 heures, Binket_ a dit :

... but you'd think people would be more inclined to LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES.

Can you ?

[vixenpixel]

@Binket_Do you think your issue with gloom has just kinda compounded with sevagoth prime? Like I said earlier in the thread, I had a choice of removing his shadow or gloom when I made my sevagoth build and i feel like though the shadow isn't great, it's kindof cool so I put ability on gloom. I'm not interested in using an ability that does so little and that's the truth of it. Life steal? don't need this. Slow? I put this on banshee because her survivability was helped immeasurably by it and she doesn't mind having all the strength required to timestop her surroundings. I've not really noticed any issues prior to seva prime and tbh I don't play as much as I used to so I cant say I have personally noticed an increase of gloom users. But it stands to reason that atm, there would be alot of glummy gloomers. So what Im saying is that maybe you're blowing this out of proportion. It could be a passing issue.

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, vixenpixel a dit :

So what Im saying is that maybe you're blowing this out of proportion.

Gloom isn't even the subject here. OP played one single defense game in public and some player used Gloom, making the mission a bit longer. So of course, he lashed out, because he felt like "dumb people were stealing his valuable time in some speed game" (which is only his opinion) ; and even when screaming at people in game, nothing changed. So he had to come here seeking attention about a non-issue, thinking like everybody would qualify him as really observative, pertinent, and would claim him a genious for having the original thought of nerfing gloom. And that, just after the realease of Sevagoth Prime, which is hilariously counter productive for DE in any means.

But to his surprise, nobody cared, and nobody thought it was an issue. So now he can only kick harder and insult anyone that doesn't agree with him. He will do that for a little while, until enough facts and logics will be presented by the patient people left; and when eventually he won't be able to distort the reality as much as he'd want to, he will just flee away raging alone ; until finding another topic and another bunch of people to attack.

I don't think you can have a rational discussion here ; and anyways, he is going to make another encyclopedy about how is right, and how we are all wrong. Much like the other guy ; those are the loudest.

[vixenpixel]

Quote

 

If it were up to me? I'd take the slow out entirely and replace it with something more interesting to work with.
^{Doubling the Status Procs applied to effected enemies is just one of many ideas. Would pair nicely with Verglas and Epitaph, both used for Statuses and are associated with Sevagoth.}

Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before-- I've seen how this community evolves.
One thing that has stayed relatively consistent at best
^{... or has only gotten worse at... well... worst?}

Players seem to HATE the idea of "nerfs" for... arbitrary reasons it seems.
A sort of sentiment of "It's a PvE game, only PvP games need nerfs!"
Which is... bluntly put, self-destructive for any game to only buffs.
It's been around for a long while, but it's getting more obstructive the power creep keeps happening.

There's others, like DE's sentiments on changing abilities-- but I risk repeating myself again there.

 

I think you're doing the whole "people seem to", "people are always..." etc without knowing who you are really referring to. I mean, I've suggested both nerfs and buffs to things. I think most people are like me. You seem to assume that most people are trying to gang up on you with their stupidity. Now I do believe that you're probably quite intelligent but I also think that the insanity you are penning in this thread is showing your blind spots very clearly. You can't see what people are saying because you consider their opinions too rudimentary for your keen intellect. Well, mostly what you are writing, while eloquent in it's own right, look like the ranting of a madman, to me. It looks possessed. I think it would be better if you made less assumptions about who you are discussing with, less compartmentalisation of people. Less generalisation of people with opposing opinions. Etc. I think you would get more actual respect that way. Right now it reads kind-of like an eccentric professor who lives in a cabin by himself whose grandchildren are not allowed to go visit because of all the guns he has amassed in his bunker. You know what I mean?

[Binket_]

3 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

Like I said earlier in the thread, I had a choice of removing his shadow or gloom when I made my sevagoth build and i feel like though the shadow isn't great

Back a while ago, I opted to replace Gloom with Elemental Ward or Total Eclipse. Both of which effect his Shadow.
My problems with the Shadow wasn't the lack of potency, but rather that everything felt like it lacked impact.
Like you were just flinging wet noodles.
Otherwise, it was cool to swap between different kinds of builds on the fly.

I wouldn't be sure how to exactly fix Shadow on the other hand besides tweaking the animations of it to be more... "snappy" for a lack of a better word.

3 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

But it stands to reason that atm, there would be alot of glummy gloomers. So what Im saying is that maybe you're blowing this out of proportion.

Do you think your issue with gloom has just kinda compounded with sevagoth prime? 

Naturally Sevagoth Prime is going to make it more of an issue since a lot more players will be using it.
... and I do account for that, but I could also argue it's the Dante situation too.
Overtuned at first, without a doubt. Got a slap on the wrist in the form of a minor nerf.
Players argued it was "too early for a nerf" and how it made him "unplayable".
Now he's more overtuned than when he started.

In that sense, it's better look to what Gloom actually does on a mechanical level.
Than you account for "How much effort does it take to fix?", "How much would a fix benefit the game?" and "How does this compare to other options."
If we were to lower the slowdown at first, one possibility would be that DE adds something else when people complain.
^{Not a certainty, but as far as I'm concerned-- we're talking hypotheticals to begin with. At this point, it's fully within the realm of possibility.}

 

Since I keep getting this push-back anyway? I'm inclined to say it's more a Catch-22 type of situation.
No matter how good a point, it's made irrelevant because it's "too early to make decisions".
^{I bet it'd be the same result prior the Sevagoth Prime's release.}

Context for clarity on Catch-22: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)
The short of it though is that it's a paradox. No matter how you answer, it's always the same result because of a logical loophole.
Very exploitable as a result, often far more abusable when it's built around certain social norms.

3 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

Life steal? don't need this. Slow? I put this on banshee because her survivability was helped immeasurably by it and she doesn't mind having all the strength required to timestop her surroundings.

I've always opted for Quiver or Condemn myself on Banshee... but that's personal preference.
Reason for it though was they're much cheaper alternatives that help in different ways, especially considering her most unique Ability (Sonar) costs 50 Energy per cast.
Something you'll like likely cast multiple times to make the most of it (and ensure Resonance covers pretty much the whole body.)

Trick is: while I've heard people say the "Slow pairs well with the stun from Silence"?
I find it only amplifies the issue since the stun only happens on the edge of Silence's range.
Both of which are not locked to LoS.

If you can't directly fire at the target because it's behind too much terrain?
You may as well not bother. It becomes redundant as you can stun all you like-- but it's still alive.
^{Would it not be better to have something to shoot at during an Interception... rather than wait for targets that never show up?}

2 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

I think you're doing the whole "people seem to", "people are always..." etc without knowing who you are really referring to.

3 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

Less generalisation of people with opposing opinions. Etc. I think you would get more actual respect that way.

Well, last I checked? Naming specific people tends to be frowned upon here. (Y'know, rules of "Witch-Hunting" and all.)
So I'm kinda forced to be vague.

What the hell do you want from me? Divination? Magic statistics from "totally a DE employee"?
Yes, not every player is the same.
We'd all be getting nowhere if we pretend every player is a perfectly-unique snowflake every time.
Patterns exist, I'm going to acknowledge them.

Otherwise, the best I can do is hand-wave to a general swath of people.
Especially in Warframe where there's not much you can do to pinpoint a group of people without some form of names or identification.
MR is a poor judgement of skill and understanding, but it's realistically the only next best thing we got.

2 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

You seem to assume that most people are trying to gang up on you with their stupidity. Now I do believe that you're probably quite intelligent but I also think that the insanity you are penning in this thread is showing your blind spots very clearly.

No, I'm tired of presenting lists of alternatives and questions...
Only to be asked only to be pestered with "But I like it ): ): ):" comments for the most part.
For the valid points, I've seen? I would hope some would notice I've been notably less sarcastic or sassy with them.

Who wouldn't be annoyed when the few things I've been given are a few select points that I would PERSONALLY enjoy more.
... but aren't feasible options when you remember we're talking about DE.
Possibly down the line or if the opportunity arises suddenly, but not for the moment.

Yes, I'm well aware the Slow Reduction isn't the most glamorous of fixes.
If I was to fix the ability myself? I'd likely attempt a more engaging solution.
... but I'm not given that chance.
I'm stuck in a rigged-situation of trying to get the attention of a vacant god in the midst of a entropic choir... or be stuck with the stagnating rot.

When people say they like the slow? That's fine, but there is a time and place... and method, while we're at it.

3 hours ago, vixenpixel said:

Well, mostly what you are writing, while eloquent in it's own right, look like the ranting of a madman, to me. It looks possessed.

Right now it reads kind-of like an eccentric professor who lives in a cabin by himself whose grandchildren are not allowed to go visit because of all the guns he has amassed in his bunker. You know what I mean?

... yeah, I won't deny I have a certain "style" of typing.
It's a mix of "Saffron Sass", "Pocket Watch of Lost Patience" and a few drops of "Soul of Tired Babysitter".
All haphazardly thrown into a rusty cauldron with no sense of self-preservation...
Enough time spent with what-feels-like-the-insane will do that to you though.

"Possessed" is certainly a new descriptor for me though, but not an unexpected one.
Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure how to exactly address that. "Be less possessed" and "Crazy professor" doesn't exactly give much to go off of.
It's certainly a vivid image, but how would one go about not doing that? Can't just flip a magic lever and suddenly everything makes sense.
^{It would be far easier if I could though. Not just for me either.}

 

[GPrime96]

On 2024-08-22 at 12:34 PM, Binket_ said:

Okay, so let's recap on this travesty of an ability.

We have...

• A channeled ability that is subsumable.
  •  The ONLY subsumable channeled ability at that.
• Affects every enemy in a given range, increasing the energy cost a paltry amount.
  • This effect has no line-of-sight and will affect a target unless they are outright immune to abilities.
  • Targets of such include Eximus, Wolf of Saturn Six, Nullifiers, etc.
• Gives two major effects: Lifesteal to allies, slowness to Enemies.
  • Lifesteal is basically insta-regen to all health because 1% of 1mil is going to be enough no matter what.
  • Slowness of to 95%, borderline frozen in place. _{(We'll put a pin in that for later.)}
• The area it effects slowly expands as the ability is active.
• SEVAGOTH ONLY: Provides a mediocre amount of gauge for his Shadow.

Okay, so-- everyone caught up on the ability? Good?

 

Alright cool.
WHO THE HELL LACKED THE EYES TO HAVE MISSED THE OBVIOUS PROBLEM HERE FOR SO LONG?!!

I cannot stress this enough, 95% slowdown! On ALL ENEMIES within a set zone?!
A zone of which can easily fit an entire room given enough Ability Range-- and everybody will be using at least SOME kind of range!

Look, I get it. Slowdown abilities aren't anything new.
We had Molecular Prime that hits a certain zone, Wyrd Scythes can ALSO hit insane slowness.
Molecular Prime changes the Lifesteal for a 50% Damage Vulnerabilty Debuff on enemies, they also explode on death. It also has a lower cap on the Slow debuff at 75%.
Wyrd Scythes, Ophanim Eyes, etc. also don't work on the entire room. They work on a select few enemies. Ones you're already working on.

Oh, so why is it an issue? Because those same abilities that aren't Gloom don't slow EVERYTHING down to a crawl!
Defense Missions are a slog already. We don't need enemies to take even longer to show up.
At least with the other abilities, they'd be softened up. Maybe even set for a cool cascade effect with things like Molecular Prime.
Gloom doesn't do that. It ONLY slows.

Survivability is a common excuse I hear. Yeah, you'll survive better since nothing can shoot at you.
... at the cost of extreme boredom because nothing will happen and nothing CAN happen.
(Let's not pretend anyone with Shields active- of which is a majority of the roster- is actually using that Health Regen.)
There's nothing to do, nothing to outwit, you win. Congrats, you just win. Period. Slowly, painfully, not an ounce of fun-- but you win!

 

If you want to survive without annoying everyone else by clogging up spawns in a given room?
We have...

• Condemn: Locks enemies where they stand in a given line, hoists their heads up visibly and replenishes your Shields.
  • You know what's better than a slow-moving target? One that doesn't move at all.
  • You can run out of Shields, but you can't run out of Health. Condemn just buffers your defenses even more than Gloom ever could.
  • Costs only 25 Energy too. That is crazy cheap.
• Quiver: Creates a bubble of invisibility where it lands. Standing in the bubble makes you invisible.
  • ... do I need to explain why invisibility is broken? No, I don't.
  • Yes, you may have to stand still if you lack range. That's why you RECAST.
    • Plus, I know many of you don't parkour enough to use that excuse of "moving".
• Radial Blind: Flashbangs the enemy, locking them in place and opening them to finishers.
  • Same idea as Gloom, better results and less intrusive.
• Shooting Gallery: Boosted damage, jams guns of nearby enemies. (Stuns Melee units)
  • Add respective augment to turn it into Radial Blind with extra damage.
  • Also boosts allies, regardless of distance.

And that's just the subsumable options I can remember off of memory.
Don't even get me started on how using Shivering Contagion on Verglas just shuts down nearly everything completely.
^{Most things can't block Verglas anyway because it's not an ability. Cold procs just do that.}

 

But the biggest thing above all of this?
These options don't consistently effect the entire room.
Some may be instant-cast and effect the room, but none lock it down.
Even Nova's Molecular Prime has a short lifespan and a costly upkeep. _{(Notice how I keep mentioning it? I have to make sure the idea sticks.)}
We have options, but Gloom remains the top-tier because it's braindead and people refuse to try new things.
The fact of the matter is: The only way to get people to stop using Gloom in a detrimental way... is to take it away from them.
^{They'll likely complain, but you know what? They had their fun, time to patch the ability that functions more like an exploit than a tactic. Saves me the Tylenol.}

 

So, can we please nerf Gloom's slowdown when in the Helminth at least?
About down to 20% Slow-Cap should be more than enough. Only go higher if you make the Energy Cost from it being active DRAMATICALLY more hungry.
If we're feeling extra nice that day? Nerfing Sevagoth's Gloom directly to a 40% cap on the slow would be stellar. No more than that, otherwise it doesn't do enough.

 

Gloom alone is definitely hard geared for something like a add dense endurance run. Anything in the lower levels, you’re slowing down the game (literally) with the 95%. But on Sevagoth, Gloom got hardly any use since his 1 & 2 do most of the job for him and when i’m in situations where i could use Gloom, i would be mostly shield gating than relying on Gloom since Sevagoth’s not ideally a tank besides reviving himself with his passive. But for frames like Garuda/Protea/Voruna, Gloom’s really strong.