New augment mod "Burning Hate" is terrible.

[dwqrf]

il y a 57 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

Put this on your Hate if you have a free mod slot. It's "only" 90% instead of 120, but it's always active, you get extra heavy attack speed (better than an extra 30% IMO), and you can still use Melee Exposure / Influence.

Using the default Heat damage to trigger the augment will always be bad, even if you were to equip the augment you'd use a primer for the Heat.

But this mod only affects the status inflicted by the Hate.

It does read "+%Status damage" (implied : for Hate status).

While the augment affects all the status in the known universe.

It does read "enemy become vulnerable to +% more status damage" (implied : from all sources).

Read the mod.

 

[NivalisAngelus]

Hi I'm not here to add anything constructive.

I'm just here to giggle madly about all the hate the Hate augment is getting.

[dwqrf]

il y a 30 minutes, NivalisAngelus a dit :

 all the hate the Hate augment is getting.

 

Il y a 17 heures, dwqrf a dit :

Just a hater.

Too subtle ?

[Chewarette]

This augment should have been something about improving the playability of this weapon, but let's be honest, if it had been +12000% damage, it wouldn't change much given that a normally-modded Hate already one-shots 95% of the content in the game

[NivalisAngelus]

6 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

This augment should have been something about improving the playability of this weapon, but let's be honest, if it had been +12000% damage, it wouldn't change much given that a normally-modded Hate already one-shots 95% of the content in the game

I think that is the intention, honestly. Just looking at this thread, people are upset that it brings nothing to the table for the way like 99.999999% of players use Hate, that is, for heavy attacks. Which, as many and yourself have stated, deals with pretty much everything in the game.

So.. Why would an augment be needed to improve something that.. Isn't broken? Yes, people have pointed out it would be better for Despair since it's not used much anyways. But I think it is meant to address the playability of Hate, but not the way people expect. Which might be the point? It seems obvious that the augment is meant to be paired with Hate's incarnon mechanic, which I'm guessing is very under-utilized (I don't think Hate's heavy attacks launch the heat blades, only neutral and forward right?)

Is it a great mod? Eh. Is it a terrible mod? Eh. I'm not clever enough to really figure it out. I can see the point is to bring attention to a playstyle that isn't common, which is what the point of augments is, isn't it? To do something different. If the meta is heavy attacks.. And it's already a super fantastic awesome build for Hate, why make an augment for that? Why fix something that isn't broken?

I get it. I get why people are upset. It's an augment for a weapon that people like, but it doesn't fit in with their playstyle. Of course people would be upset. It's content that might as well not exist. I do believe you're right, in that it's something that should improve the playability.. But I believe it's meant to improve something that just isn't as good as what's already there.

Personally, I think this will work fine for what I want when I was looking for a weapon to use with Ember. I wanted a melee weapon with something about heat and I was already eyeing Hate for that. This mod probably is the clinch. I wasn't leaning that way original because I'm not the biggest fan of heavy attack spam and I already have Harmony for that, which works fine and I'm enjoying enough.

Also, please someone corre me if I'm wrong because I'm a tad confused. But aren't status proc damage considered as damage from the source that triggers them? So wouldn't a heat proc tick applied by Hate be considered as damage from Hate on a target that is afflicted by a Heat status? I feel like that means that a single Heat from Hate boost it's own damage in subsequent ticks..

Anyways sorry, that's a lot of words to say "Shrug Imma try it"

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, NivalisAngelus a dit :

Also, please someone corre me if I'm wrong because I'm a tad confused. But aren't status proc damage considered as damage from the source that triggers them? So wouldn't a heat proc tick applied by Hate be considered as damage from Hate on a target that is afflicted by a Heat status? I feel like that means that a single Heat from Hate boost it's own damage in subsequent ticks..

That's the thing. For my understanding, the mod isn't :
"+% Status Damage" (no specification, so implied for Hate)
or
"+% Heat Status Damage" (no specification, so implied for Hate)
or
"On Heat Status Effect (no specification, implied from Hate) = +%Status Damage (no specification, implied for Hate) or +%Heat Status damage (no specification, implied for hate)

But rather, the mod IS :
Condition 1) If hitting enemy with Hate ;
Condition 2) If enemy hit by Hate have Heat status on them (implied from any source)
= Effect : Enemy become vulnerable to +%Status Damage. (implied of all types and from all sources)

That's how I read it. If not, why the wording ? Am I mistaken to think that apply to all status in the game, even from spells, from all sources, as a vulnerability debuff ?

[crimsonspartan1]

Feel like the mod should've been something like this:

"Each time Hate inflicts a status effect, increases status damage taken by that enemy by +60%, stacking up to 3 times"

So instead of specifically needing heat damage on the hate, you can use any status effect and the overall damage increase is bigger. Perhaps it's not what people want for a hate augment still, but at least that version would be stronger than the base version and allow for more build options with the mod instead of specifically needing heat? Could also change the name from "Burning Hate" to maybe "Inflicting Hate" or something along those lines?

Not sure what else you could do for a hate augment since the hate is already stupid powerful and unless you make the mod ridiculously powerful, the mod will probably not be used all that much? I guess you could make it similar to the dread one with the invisibility, like "On heavy attack kill, turn invisible for 5-10 seconds and while invisible, increase a certain stat (Not crit damage since Dread already has that? Maybe damage, status chance, status damage or crit chance?) by like 150%-300%, which'd be a bit better with the stalker theming, but perhaps people don't want both dread and hate mods to be too similar?

[NivalisAngelus]

39 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

That's the thing. For my understanding, the mod isn't :
"+% Status Damage" (no specification, so implied for Hate)
or
"+% Heat Status Damage" (no specification, so implied for Hate)
or
"On Heat Status Effect (no specification, implied from Hate) = +%Status Damage (no specification, implied for Hate) or +%Heat Status damage (no specification, implied for hate)

But rather, the mod IS :
Condition 1) If hitting enemy with Hate ;
Condition 2) If enemy hit by Hate have Heat status on them (implied from any source)
= Effect : Enemy become vulnerable to +%Status Damage. (implied of all types and from all sources)

That's how I read it. If not, why the wording ? Am I mistaken to think that apply to all status in the game, even from spells, from all sources, as a vulnerability debuff ?

Apologies, I may not have explained well.

It is damage vulnerability but specific to status damage yes.

What I'm referring to is how people in this thread are saying how using this augment is a two step process. Essentially, one hit (assuming Hate has Heat damage) to apply the Heat status, then hit again to apply Vulnerability effect.

But.. Proc damage is considered as damage originating from what applied the proc, right? So what I'm thinking, is if Hate applies a Heat proc (whether it's using a mod or the incarnon mode), the first tick from thar Heat proc would say "this is damage from Hate on an enemy that has a Heat proc on it, therefore apply Status Vulnerability", which means the enemy would take more damage from the second tick of the same Heat proc.

And yes, I know Hate doesn't normally have heat, but I still think it's meant to improve use of the incarnon mechanic, which sounds like people don't really use it..

[Traumtulpe]

14 minutes ago, NivalisAngelus said:

What I'm referring to is how people in this thread are saying how using this augment is a two step process. Essentially, one hit (assuming Hate has Heat damage) to apply the Heat status, then hit again to apply Vulnerability effect.

But.. Proc damage is considered as damage originating from what applied the proc, right? So what I'm thinking, is if Hate applies a Heat proc (whether it's using a mod or the incarnon mode), the first tick from thar Heat proc would say "this is damage from Hate on an enemy that has a Heat proc on it, therefore apply Status Vulnerability", which means the enemy would take more damage from the second tick of the same Heat proc.

Yes, the reason why nobody cares about this is that relying on damage from Heat procs means your Hate build is bad.

The strongest melee builds use Melee Influence, that means Electric procs, *not* Heat ones.

The second strongest on the Hate is probably using Melee Exposure, meaning you might proc Heat but it'll be an absolutely tiny percentage of your damage (it's a direct damage build).

So you are *not* using Heat procs from the Hate to buff your damage output done by the Hate. You just aren't.

Next option; Using Heat procs from the Hate to buff the status damage of a gun. This is a terrible idea by default, because this in essence means the combat range of your gun is melee range. At that point just forget about all of this crap and simply kill them with the Hate.

TLDR: *If* you are using this mod, you proc Heat with a primer and kill with status effects from the Hate. And in that case the augment simply increases the Hate's status damage by 120%, and is a sidegrade to Melee Elementalist.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, NivalisAngelus said:

2 hours ago, Chewarette said:

This augment should have been something about improving the playability of this weapon, but let's be honest, if it had been +12000% damage, it wouldn't change much given that a normally-modded Hate already one-shots 95% of the content in the game

I think that is the intention, honestly. Just looking at this thread, people are upset that it brings nothing to the table for the way like 99.999999% of players use Hate, that is, for heavy attacks. Which, as many and yourself have stated, deals with pretty much everything in the game.

So.. Why would an augment be needed to improve something that.. Isn't broken? Yes, people have pointed out it would be better for Despair since it's not used much anyways. But I think it is meant to address the playability of Hate, but not the way people expect. Which might be the point? It seems obvious that the augment is meant to be paired with Hate's incarnon mechanic, which I'm guessing is very under-utilized (I don't think Hate's heavy attacks launch the heat blades, only neutral and forward right?)

If that's for Hate use so why not Melee elementalist that boost status damage AND heavy attacks? So you have 2 playstyles boosted. Like someone mentioned +30% damage vulnerability is worse than heavy stuff.

You could 2 Elemental mods but I wonder if that would be better than just your average build.

2 hours ago, NivalisAngelus said:

Also, please someone corre me if I'm wrong because I'm a tad confused. But aren't status proc damage considered as damage from the source that triggers them? So wouldn't a heat proc tick applied by Hate be considered as damage from Hate on a target that is afflicted by a Heat status? I feel like that means that a single Heat from Hate boost it's own damage in subsequent ticks..

 

The way it's phrased it can work both way. It can boost, as you said, next ticks' damage. Or it can boost your next attack (that deals status damage like blast).

2 hours ago, NivalisAngelus said:

Anyways sorry, that's a lot of words to say "Shrug Imma try it"

+1

[dwqrf]

Il y a 2 heures, NivalisAngelus a dit :

What I'm referring to is how people in this thread are saying how using this augment is a two step process. Essentially, one hit (assuming Hate has Heat damage) to apply the Heat status, then hit again to apply Vulnerability effect.

But.. Proc damage is considered as damage originating from what applied the proc, right? So what I'm thinking, is if Hate applies a Heat proc (whether it's using a mod or the incarnon mode), the first tick from thar Heat proc would say "this is damage from Hate on an enemy that has a Heat proc on it, therefore apply Status Vulnerability", which means the enemy would take more damage from the second tick of the same Heat proc.

It doesn't specify you have to procc Heat with Hate ; just hit enemy afflicted by Heat with Hate, which means anything in your whole squad can apply Heat status, then allowing a single Hate hit to make enemy vulnerable to all status damage. So it's for the players that don't play Hate and make other kind of status doing damage, including all other weapons and all spells.

In the other hand, it doesn't specify that any damage from Hate cannot procc the debuff ; so you may be able to make enemies vulnerable by any DoT damage from Hate, or any simple hit, -as they are all Hate's damage- as long as the conditions "Damage enemy ; enemy having Heat status effect on them" are valid.
 

[tucker_d_dawg]

people hating on something they haven't played. 
Guessing about if its heat from any source or from hate (the language on the tin is meaningless - DE consistently misleadingly mislabels stuff by accident or omission.
Not knowing if, like so many other mods, the mod will be flat out broken on release due to errors in coding that may go unchanged for years, or may be patched the next day, or maybe "intended"

mental gymnastics to keep oneself entertained doing anything but actually playing the game I suppose. 🤣

[dwqrf]

il y a 6 minutes, tucker_d_dawg a dit :

people hating on something they haven't played. 
Guessing about if its heat from any source or from hate (the language on the tin is meaningless - DE consistently misleadingly mislabels stuff by accident or omission.
Not knowing if, like so many other mods, the mod will be flat out broken on release due to errors in coding that may go unchanged for years, or may be patched the next day, or maybe "intended"

mental gymnastics to keep oneself entertained doing anything but actually playing the game I suppose. 🤣

True. And I might just be plainly mistaken. But the wording makes me think it's not just about Hate heat status, nor Hate status damage, because it shouldn't be such complex and specific description ; and as I understand it, its definitely not worthless and terrible, as title claim it is. But it might be in worst case scenario.

No need to hate what you aren't using because you got a -9 primed mods + riven + maxed out Arcane- Hate build.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, tucker_d_dawg said:

people hating on something they haven't played

Turns out it is possible to make predictions based on prior knowledge.

Prior knowledge 1): A mod that says "+90% status damage and +60% heavy attack speed" is optional - as in, it's not meta but you might want to use it.

Prior knowledge 2): Augment mods are meant to change the way you play, or the function of a weapon in some way. For example by providing infinite ammo on headshots.

Prediction: An augment mod that says "+120% status damage if x" is, at best, an optional sidegrade, and does not in any way, shape, or form deserve to be an augment.

It's not rocket science.

[dwqrf]

il y a une heure, Traumtulpe a dit :

Prediction: An augment mod that says "+120% status damage if x" is, at best, an optional sidegrade, and does not in any way, shape, or form deserve to be an augment.

Unless you overlooked its true potential effect and all its possible application.

[NivalisAngelus]

4 hours ago, dwqrf said:

It doesn't specify you have to procc Heat with Hate ; just hit enemy afflicted by Heat with Hate, which means anything in your whole squad can apply Heat status, then allowing a single Hate hit to make enemy vulnerable to all status damage. So it's for the players that don't play Hate and make other kind of status doing damage, including all other weapons and all spells.

In the other hand, it doesn't specify that any damage from Hate cannot procc the debuff ; so you may be able to make enemies vulnerable by any DoT damage from Hate, or any simple hit, -as they are all Hate's damage- as long as the conditions "Damage enemy ; enemy having Heat status effect on them" are valid.
 

Sorry for confusion, I really am not explaining well.

All I'm trying to say is if Hate has already applied a Heat proc, it doesn't need a follow up hit to trigger the vulnerability condition, because the damage from the status will fulfill the "damaged by Hate - On enemy with Heat status"

I thought I saw posts saying or at least implying that it had to be a direct melee hit after a Heat status was applied to an enemy even if it came from Hate, but I couldn't find what it was when I first read through the thread.

[dwqrf]

il y a 19 minutes, NivalisAngelus a dit :

Sorry for confusion, I really am not explaining well.

All I'm trying to say is if Hate has already applied a Heat proc, it doesn't need a follow up hit to trigger the vulnerability condition, because the damage from the status will fulfill the "damaged by Hate - On enemy with Heat status"

I thought I saw posts saying or at least implying that it had to be a direct melee hit after a Heat status was applied to an enemy even if it came from Hate, but I couldn't find what it was when I first read through the thread.

Makes sense.

What I meant is that instead of priming this Augment on melee range, you could also shoot Heat status, and when meeting a strong target, hit him once with Hate augmented, hence buffing subsequent status damage (without the need for high Heat on Hate + high status chance on Hate + multiple hits of Hate to procc the augment)

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 22 horas, Agall dijo:

Not reliably and at a relatively slow speed without attack speed mods. It doesn't have 100% chance to proc heat and I don't think the chance scales with [Weeping Wounds] since it won't always proc heat. Its also independent of mods since it would otherwise only proc radiation in my build, but it procs electric and radiation instead.

I also doubt it can proc this effect off of its own heat proc, as in if you melee once with heat modded proccing heat and slash, if that single attack counts. If it can proc this effect off existing status, that's a whole other story.

We'll need to get it to properly test it. Its quite possible this effect can proc off preexisting status effect, since its relatively non-specific with what kind of damage from Hate can trigger this effect (with a heat status effect on them obviously).

Right so, yes Weeping Wounds works on the blades, tested it myself today besides Traum also confirming it for what I've read, thereby a single attack speed mod or arcane and we'd be golden when it comes to applying heat, and as DW has mentioned the description reads just as "When Hate damage enemies inflicted with heat status" which means the heat source doesn't even need to be the weapon itself, so we're golden twice.

Seems pretty clear to me this will be a strong and easy to work with mod, albeit again, unnecessary, uncalled, and unimaginative.
Should have been the Despair, outside of the genesis which they needed.

Edited September 5 by (PSN)Pablogamer585
Somehow bugged the post lol

[Agall]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Right so, yes Weeping Wounds works on the blades, tested it myself today besides Traum also confirming it for what I've read, thereby a single attack speed mod or arcane and we'd be golden when it comes to applying heat, and as DW has mentioned the description reads just as "When Hate damage enemies inflicted with heat status" which means the heat source doesn't even need to be the weapon itself, so we're golden twice.

Seems pretty clear to me this will be a strong and easy to work with mod, albeit again, unnecessary, uncalled, and unimaginative.

I confirmed that it also procs slash yesterday myself, the projectiles, which is nice. I played around with viral+electric which seems stronger for Melee Influence compared to just electric. I ended up still dropping it for a Prisma Skana with the same build.

I'm already maxed on the Nightwave at rank 4, so I'm on track to get the Hate augment ASAP. I'll be testing it when it arrives, I just don't see how it'll be worth the mod slot. I imagine heavy attack builds will run into the same issue, where you'll be unnecessarily spending extra time priming targets with heat when you could just 1 shot them with a single heavy attack. The issue here being the projectiles don't blend seamlessly into standard melee gameplay with their stationary requirement. I see it more as utility of having a built in range weapon than being a core part of the melee gameplay.

So far the build I have in mind is a viral+heat (instead of viral+electric) with either [Melee Crescendo] or [Melee Animosity]. I haven't tested it much with [Melee Duplicate] since I always have Wrathful Advance on my build, but that could be viable if it applies to the projectiles (those don't tend to crit past yellow). There's a few other ideas I have that I'll keep secret for now.

Its not that its useless, that's obviously not the case, but that doesn't mean its good and not potentially terrible. I'd argue that its on par utility to something like the Syndicate augments, maybe even less useful than Skana's [Bright Purity].

[Agall]

8 hours ago, NivalisAngelus said:

But.. Proc damage is considered as damage originating from what applied the proc, right? So what I'm thinking, is if Hate applies a Heat proc (whether it's using a mod or the incarnon mode), the first tick from thar Heat proc would say "this is damage from Hate on an enemy that has a Heat proc on it, therefore apply Status Vulnerability"

Its quite possible it works like that, but we don't know till we can test it. I've suggested this a few times, where you could actively have an electric proc on a target from Melee Influence spreading it, someone else comes along and procs heat with like a furis, and because the electric damage ticked damage from Hate, it applies the status damage bonus. That's the most forgiving interpretation.

It could also simply not proc off status damage at all and require direct melee damage and the wording of the augment is just vague, we simply don't know yet till we can test it. That's the most limiting interpretation. 

Either way, its too restrictive with its conditional requirement to affect the meta in any meaningful way. We're used to these Nightwave augments being somewhat meta breaking or at least providing sufficient utility to make them useful (Glaxion augment of recent). 

Now if it wasn't conditional on a specific damage type, that would be nice. I doubt they'll change it since the name of the mod itself wouldn't make sense.

If they added +heat%, it would at least be serviceable. It would also provide an option of using this mod as a primary source of elemental damage to allow base attacks to proc heat and not require the Incarnon form to function on its own.

Glaxion has innate cold damage to proc its augment, why should we have to take another mod slot or use a primer on the Hate's augment to proc its effect? That change alone would quell most of the reasonable criticisms that have been levied against this augment.

[dwqrf]

il y a une heure, Agall a dit :

affect the meta

The meta left a long time ago. Just play what's fun. That's the meta now. If this mod doesn't affect your meta, fine ! Don't use it. But don't assume people are forced to play just like you to either be productive or to have fun.

[Agall]

20 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

The meta left a long time ago. Just play what's fun. That's the meta now. If this mod doesn't affect your meta, fine ! Don't use it. But don't assume people are forced to play just like you to either be productive or to have fun.

You're telling this to the guy who's played mostly Excalibur for the last 11 years.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, Agall a dit :

You're telling this to the guy who's played mostly Excalibur for the last 11 years.

And melee isn't everything.

[Agall]

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

And melee isn't everything.

Buddy, we're talking about the utility of a melee weapon augment, one of the first they've released with Nightwave. I don't have Daikyu and Kunai as my most used weapons (its been Kunai since the beta) because I use primary/secondaries.

That's my lane, which is why I'm expressing my concerns on its utility. I've generally ignored your replies because they've contributed little to nothing to the conversation for a while. This is another example of it.

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, Agall a dit :

Buddy, we're talking about the utility of a melee weapon augment

Which also seem to affect all the status damage in the game, not only the melee one. Don't you value this as a contribution to something you blindly dismiss ?