Dev Workshop: Koumei & the Five Fates - Caliban + Nova Rework

[MoonYuTsu]

5 hours ago, Destroyahx87 said:

Yes, I have given that some thought and it was a complaint of mine when first seeing this rework. But I think the philosophy DE is going for here is that you're supposed to be cycling through these abilities a lot. 

If so, it's a strange philosophy to go for, given that... I'm pretty sure this is exactly why DE have said in the past they've not got a favourable view on these abilities with sub-ability wheels - the game is fast paced as it is, with things going on constantly you have to be paying attention to, especially at high level, and this results in people just not engaging with the ability choices, because they're too much to think about in the heat of gameplay, and so players just use whatever's best or easiest to use and ignore the rest - I'm pretty sure this is what will happen with the new Lethal Progeny: the Summulyst is the only one to give survivability, and the only one that might give any sort of worth once you get into high level content where everything insta-deletes you without some sort of survivability and the Conculysts and Ortholysts fall off damagewise, so everyone will just stick to the Summulyst and the other two will be ignored. 
 
Also per the point of "cycling through abilities a lot" - I almost feel like an expectation to be spamming abilities even more than Caliban already does is just going to deepen the problem Caliban has with energy economy. His high energy demand due to needing to constantly cast Lethal Progeny and Fusion Strike is a common complaint about current Caliban, and that problem is only going to get worse if we're going to be expected to constantly swap the Sentient Summons out, and need to cast Fusion Strike even more due to it losing the lingering AoE strip effect

[Tenno_Aster]

It seems like it might not feel great to only be able to summon one type of Progeny at a time. For instance. I feel like if I have to choose, 7 times out of 10 I'm going to only use Conculysts, and the other 3 times I'll maybe choose the Summulyst.

In particular, the Ortholysts just sound underwhelming, considering I'm going to have at least 3 other AOE methods of spreading Tau status on demand, and the Conculysts are meant to be the "damage" progeny.

To me, the appeal of a summoner/"minionmancer" is having all my little guys running around doing their thing. And showing us this variety of summons just makes me wish I could be using all of the different types at once.

If you want players making tactical choices for Progeny, that can come in the form of deciding if you actually should summon all 3 types or not to preserve your energy and/or manage cast time. But I think the fun comes in having the option to have all three summons out.

[sXeth]

1 hour ago, Rinastina said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik Adaptation applies to all the damage types depending on the stacks it has built, it's just from any hit you can build a single stack of the strongest damage type. Like, if you get hit by that (30 Impact, 20 Slash, and 10 Puncture) attack, you only build one Impact stack, but if you already have Slash and Puncture stacks built prior to that, they'll still reduce the 20S and 10P. 

Yeah but typically in any given mission you won’t get consistently hit by all of them to leep the stacks. (Calibans actually weirdly offsets it a bit, his does build but not stack with adaptation, but decays slower. Meaning he keeps a more sustained minimum threshold even if you do run Adaptation overtop)

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

I really hope Pablo will change his mind and address Caliban's passive, because it is not "quite powerful." 50% Damage Reduction is nothing practically, and Caliban and his allies cannot make use of it if Adaptation is equipped as its value replaces Adaptive Armor from Caliban. The mod and the passive should work together in some form in a positive way. Caliban's passive should be changed to work like Adaptation as well in that it should build up on hit regardless of whether damage was received or not such as when invulnerable.

Edited 19 hours ago by DawnoftheWhiteFury
Edited after receiving clarification on how the mod and passive interact.

[Caramello]

19 hours ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

not like you can roll to anim cancel still and then go into cloud walker lol

Ah yes yes very smart, go try that out and let me know how it went :)

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

13 minutes ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

I really hope Adaptation will no longer completely remove Caliban's passive, making it non functional entirely. It really should stack in some manner with his passive or something.

Adaptation doesnt remove Caliban’s passive, the fact is that they are the same ability with different duration conditions.

Damage Type Modifier aka Adaptation/adaptive armor

Damage Type Modifiers are a unique classification of damage reduction that is usually specific to only one type of damage. Damage modifiers stack multiplicatively with each other and other sources of damage reduction.

Sources of Damage Type Modifiers: Abilities

  Caliban and allies within his Affinity Range gain Adaptive Armor that builds damage resistance against the highest damage type received from enemy attacks, stacking 5% per hit up to a cap of 50%. If Caliban or his allies do not receive damage for 5 seconds, their Adaptive Armor loses 2% per second until fully removed.

[DR from damage type modifiers are multiplicative within the same type

DR is multiplicative with other types. This is the full mechanic of Adaptation/adaptive Armor and Sentient Adaptation]

Passive bonus value is displayed as a Buff icon beside Caliban's hitpoint indicators.

Impact,  Puncture,  Slash,  Cold,  Electricity,  Heat,  Toxin,  Blast,  Corrosive,  Magnetic,  Radiation,  Viral, and Tau damage types stack their respective resistances separately, and will have different icons in the status bar.

Passive values are not affected by Mods.

Damage over time from procs (such as Slash or Toxin for example) will not contribute nor maintain damage resistance.

Damage reduction effects such as those of the Mod: Adaptation do not stack with Adaptive Armor as they are the same mechanic called "damage type modifiers". The damage reduction provided to Caliban (or his allies) equipped with Adaptation will be the higher of the two values.

Unlike the Mod: Adaptation, his passive only triggers off actual damage taken. Damage taken while invulnerable, or damage that is blocked, will neither contribute nor maintain damage resistance.(prior to the new update)

Ive explained further in this thread but i also made a separate post to promote a change to help Caliban’s survivability passive while having Synergy with Adaptation. This rework resolves the redundancy between Adaptive Armor and Adaptation by allowing them to synergize instead of competing for the same role.

Take a look and like if you want to see his passive become less redundant.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1414319-caliban’s-passive/#comment-13124865

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

2 hours ago, sXeth said:

Yeah but typically in any given mission you won’t get consistently hit by all of them to leep the stacks. (Calibans actually weirdly offsets it a bit, his does build but not stack with adaptation, but decays slower. Meaning he keeps a more sustained minimum threshold even if you do run Adaptation overtop)

Actually, Caliban’s decays 2% every second after 5 seconds of not receiving that damage type. DOT do not count towards this passives trigger.

Where as Adaptation maintaints its 90% without diminishing for 20s. Anytime you're hit again within the 20s windows your 90% is refreshed. If you're on fire or any other DOT effect is on you, your Adaptation constantly refreshes while under the DOT effect.

 

This means that Caliban’s has a very small window with a far lower reward for being hit. So Adaptation last far longer or more reliably for survival making Caliban’s passive obsolete and irrelevant to warframes.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1414319-caliban’s-passive/#comment-13124865

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

3 hours ago, Tenno_Aster said:

It seems like it might not feel great to only be able to summon one type of Progeny at a time. For instance. I feel like if I have to choose, 7 times out of 10 I'm going to only use Conculysts, and the other 3 times I'll maybe choose the Summulyst.

In particular, the Ortholysts just sound underwhelming, considering I'm going to have at least 3 other AOE methods of spreading Tau status on demand, and the Conculysts are meant to be the "damage" progeny.

To me, the appeal of a summoner/"minionmancer" is having all my little guys running around doing their thing. And showing us this variety of summons just makes me wish I could be using all of the different types at once.

If you want players making tactical choices for Progeny, that can come in the form of deciding if you actually should summon all 3 types or not to preserve your energy and/or manage cast time. But I think the fun comes in having the option to have all three summons out.

I see where you're coming from but this is actually better. The 3 Conculysts are your pawns and go to the front lines. They allow you to exented the range of your 4th ability as they move in close to attack.

 

The Ortholysts helps with the spread, up keep and range of your tau status while also dealing some pretty massive bombarding damage like during the scarlet event. This helps with defense type missions, open world and when you need to help allies while still keeping the pressure on enemies. It also preserves your energy cost so you dont run out so fast trying to spread your tau status spamming your abilities. Especially in mission like ESO or the EDA/ Netracells.

 

The Summulyst are great defensive units while still having some powerful damage. Having the Summulyst spawn 6 more allies to the field giving you 7 that all provide shield regen to you and allies makes for a powerful network of defense that would make any corpus elites jealous.

This will be very useful in higher-level missions as well as open world bosses and events where at times you become overwhelmed for what ever reason. It also helps in protection missions like defection or high risk Arbitration runs. 

 

Having one of each out at the same time would lessen the impactfulness as well has have too many random things going on that would make it a jack of all master of non type scenario.

[Eclipse2024Qc]

Le 27/09/2024 à 16:48, [DE]Sam a dit :

Wukong

Wukong has developed what we and fellow players have noted is a disruptive playstyle regarding his ability to animation cancel Heavy Attacks with Cloud Walker. This leads to fast spam of max Combo Counter damage, especially on weapons such as the Arca Titron.

When we nerf anything, we follow a set of three points:

• To reduce AFK strategies,
• If the playstyle negatively hinders or disrupts the gameplay of others,
• To minimize a dominant playstyle that players feel they need to play it.

This Wukong combination falls into the disruptive gameplay category of our above philosophy. 

Following this, we aim to remove the problem surgically at its core - the animation cancels. As such, we’re only removing the ability to activate Cloud Walker while a Heavy Slam animation is currently being used. 

Cloud Walker:

• When you Heavy Slam while using Cloud Walker to exit the Ability, you cannot activate Cloud Walker again until the Heavy Slam animation is complete.

Also, Wukong’s Celestial Stomp Augment has a rather unfair advantage, being able to effect normally crowd-control-immune enemies, so we’re adjusting it to meet the standard of other Crowd Control abilities. 

Celestial Stomp Augment:

• Celestial Stomp no longer stuns crowd control-immune enemies, such as Eximus units with Overguard, to bring Celestial Stomp in line with similar crowd-controlling abilities. 

We recognize that Wukong is a popular choice of Warframe, and our intention is to reduce the disruptiveness without an unfair knock-on effect. 

Really!  Thank you for destroying my favorite warframe.  I have never spammed since the beginning.  It's the fault of others who only use spam, slam, slam, slam, slam. I've already encountered it 2 or three times.   What am I going to do to get out of walking cloud when I'm in front of the hacking thing during the spy mission!?
 

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

4 hours ago, MoonYuTsu said:

If so, it's a strange philosophy to go for, given that... I'm pretty sure this is exactly why DE have said in the past they've not got a favourable view on these abilities with sub-ability wheels - the game is fast paced as it is, with things going on constantly you have to be paying attention to, especially at high level, and this results in people just not engaging with the ability choices, because they're too much to think about in the heat of gameplay, and so players just use whatever's best or easiest to use and ignore the rest - I'm pretty sure this is what will happen with the new Lethal Progeny: the Summulyst is the only one to give survivability, and the only one that might give any sort of worth once you get into high level content where everything insta-deletes you without some sort of survivability and the Conculysts and Ortholysts fall off damagewise, so everyone will just stick to the Summulyst and the other two will be ignored. 
 
Also per the point of "cycling through abilities a lot" - I almost feel like an expectation to be spamming abilities even more than Caliban already does is just going to deepen the problem Caliban has with energy economy. His high energy demand due to needing to constantly cast Lethal Progeny and Fusion Strike is a common complaint about current Caliban, and that problem is only going to get worse if we're going to be expected to constantly swap the Sentient Summons out, and need to cast Fusion Strike even more due to it losing the lingering AoE strip effect

You're not expected to spam them out. Choose what you need and work with it.

You have all 3 out as need per the duration you chose to mod for. There are so many methods to get energy in the game now that this shouldnt be an issue.

The Conculysts let you have more range and vantage for your 4th ability to where you'll only really need to fire it once to get 4 for the cost of one.

 

The Ortholysts allows you to spread your tau status effect around eaisly with out having to spam any abilites. During that time you can use the several different weapons you modded to destroy your targets and build energy. This has amazing synergize for several different weapons and allies. The Tome for one benefits greatly from these summons like it does with Dante.

 

You can choose the wheel or just press the ability button. Regardless the wheel isnt a real issue as we use wheels for everything because its better than opening up your inventory and trying to find what you want like skyrim or some oldschool rpg. You get your energy pads, summons, emotes and even type during missions. Its fine just have fun.

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

4 minutes ago, Eclipse2024Qc said:

Really!  Thank you for destroying my favorite warframe.  I have never spammed since the beginning.  It's the fault of others who only use spam, slam, slam, slam, slam. I've already encountered it 2 or three times.   What am I going to do to get out of walking cloud when I'm in front of the hacking thing during the spy mission!?
 

Use your dodge roll, tenno/drifter or press the ability key again... you'll be ok buddy.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

36 minutes ago, (PSN)Grand_Sheba said:

Adaptation doesnt remove Caliban’s passive, the fact is that they are the same ability with different duration conditions.

Damage Type Modifier aka Adaptation/adaptive armor

Damage Type Modifiers are a unique classification of damage reduction that is usually specific to only one type of damage. Damage modifiers stack multiplicatively with each other and other sources of damage reduction.

Sources of Damage Type Modifiers: Abilities

  Caliban and allies within his Affinity Range gain Adaptive Armor that builds damage resistance against the highest damage type received from enemy attacks, stacking 5% per hit up to a cap of 50%. If Caliban or his allies do not receive damage for 5 seconds, their Adaptive Armor loses 2% per second until fully removed.

[DR from damage type modifiers are multiplicative within the same type

DR is multiplicative with other types. This is the full mechanic of Adaptation/adaptive Armor and Sentient Adaptation]

Passive bonus value is displayed as a Buff icon beside Caliban's hitpoint indicators.

Impact,  Puncture,  Slash,  Cold,  Electricity,  Heat,  Toxin,  Blast,  Corrosive,  Magnetic,  Radiation,  Viral, and Tau damage types stack their respective resistances separately, and will have different icons in the status bar.

Passive values are not affected by Mods.

Damage over time from procs (such as Slash or Toxin for example) will not contribute nor maintain damage resistance.

Damage reduction effects such as those of the Mod: Adaptation do not stack with Adaptive Armor as they are the same mechanic called "damage type modifiers". The damage reduction provided to Caliban (or his allies) equipped with Adaptation will be the higher of the two values.

Unlike the Mod: Adaptation, his passive only triggers off actual damage taken. Damage taken while invulnerable, or damage that is blocked, will neither contribute nor maintain damage resistance.(prior to the new update)

Ive explained further in this thread but i also made a separate post to promote a change to help Caliban’s survivability passive while having Synergy with Adaptation. This rework resolves the redundancy between Adaptive Armor and Adaptation by allowing them to synergize instead of competing for the same role.

Take a look and like if you want to see his passive become less redundant.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1414319-caliban’s-passive/#comment-13124865

I see I see I did not realize his passive did not proc while Invulnerable. That explains why I havent seen it, as I run Rolling Guard and Adaptation. Still, there definitely should be some level of interaction between Adaptation and Adaptive Armor that is positive. 

[Eclipse2024Qc]

il y a 5 minutes, (PSN)Grand_Sheba a dit :

Use your dodge roll, tenno/drifter or press the ability key again... you'll be ok buddy.

dirfter or operator affects the same as lasers, it is useless.  using dodge makes me so slow and can sometimes get hit by a laser.  bad idea for spy missions on Lua.

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2024-09-27 at 9:48 PM, [DE]Sam said:

The reign of the twin-kingdom Hybrid is upon us. His coronation, drowned in Tau, will cause any foe to reconsider regicide. This is Caliban’s rework.

So with his reworking coming out, I saw both in the devstream and the recap that Caliban still does not have unique floating directional movement but somehow still has his floating Idle animations, why?

[vFlitz]

2 hours ago, Eclipse2024Qc said:

dirfter or operator affects the same as lasers, it is useless.  using dodge makes me so slow and can sometimes get hit by a laser.  bad idea for spy missions on Lua.

This changes nothing for Wukong in spy missions though? As long as you don't use a heavy slam (which, for that matter, there will still be quick ways to cancel like emotes) you'll be able to cast cloudwalker exactly like before

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

3 hours ago, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

I see I see I did not realize his passive did not proc while Invulnerable. That explains why I havent seen it, as I run Rolling Guard and Adaptation. Still, there definitely should be some level of interaction between Adaptation and Adaptive Armor that is positive. 

I agree with you, thats what this rework is for.

 

 

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

3 hours ago, Eclipse2024Qc said:

dirfter or operator affects the same as lasers, it is useless.  using dodge makes me so slow and can sometimes get hit by a laser.  bad idea for spy missions on Lua.

Your tenno can go invisible and mot be touched by lasers. Being "slow" while rolling means you just need to get your timings down better. You dont need to actually roll, just press the button. This is a very minor issue with several solutions you're raising my friend.

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

1 hour ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

So with his reworking coming out, I saw both in the devstream and the recap that Caliban still does not have unique floating directional movement but somehow still has his floating Idle animations, why?

I agree with this, it bugs me so much. I dont understand why they dont give him sentient movment. He really should have his own custom movement animations.

If you can float you shouldnt be always walking. Its a weird flex to never use it.

 

Also, I couldn't tell 100% but if the ephemera for Caliban also shows up on his summons, that would be such a sick twist!

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

On 2024-09-27 at 4:48 PM, [DE]Sam said:

To do this, we’re re-working his Ability damage and the utility of his Abilities while emphasizing the adaptability and synergy of a Sentient-Warframe’s kit. When Caliban enters the field, there’s no defense Caliban can’t adapt to.

Lets ensure that Caliban can actually adapt and survive. Because during the dev stream he had to hide behind some debris several times because he almost died. Without the arcane guardian and grace that Caliban had, he would have died thrice over to pretty base level steel path. 

Having to slap Adaptation because your passive Adaptation that applies the exact same damage type modifier mechanic is just objectively worse does not disply a "defense Caliban cant adapt to."

This below resolves the redundancy between Adaptive Armor and Adaptation by allowing them to synergize instead of competing for the same role.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1414319-caliban’s-passive/#comment-13124865

[Tenno_Aster]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Grand_Sheba said:

I see where you're coming from but this is actually better. The 3 Conculysts are your pawns and go to the front lines. They allow you to exented the range of your 4th ability as they move in close to attack.

 

The Ortholysts helps with the spread, up keep and range of your tau status while also dealing some pretty massive bombarding damage like during the scarlet event. This helps with defense type missions, open world and when you need to help allies while still keeping the pressure on enemies. It also preserves your energy cost so you dont run out so fast trying to spread your tau status spamming your abilities. Especially in mission like ESO or the EDA/ Netracells.

 

The Summulyst are great defensive units while still having some powerful damage. Having the Summulyst spawn 6 more allies to the field giving you 7 that all provide shield regen to you and allies makes for a powerful network of defense that would make any corpus elites jealous.

This will be very useful in higher-level missions as well as open world bosses and events where at times you become overwhelmed for what ever reason. It also helps in protection missions like defection or high risk Arbitration runs. 

 

Having one of each out at the same time would lessen the impactfulness as well has have too many random things going on that would make it a jack of all master of non type scenario.

Well, I wasn't suggesting only one of each. I meant having 3 conculysts, 3 ortholysts, and the 1 Summulyst (plus it's 6 choralysts) all active at once.

[vFlitz]

1 hour ago, Tenno_Aster said:

Well, I wasn't suggesting only one of each. I meant having 3 conculysts, 3 ortholysts, and the 1 Summulyst (plus it's 6 choralysts) all active at once.

I could see that being too much visual clutter. Nekros has the horde summoner design spac already anyway, even if the shadows are largely useless. It'd be better to focus Caliban on summoning fewer but more substantial units.

At the very least ortholysts could easily be reduced to 1 with an AoE increase to compensate

[LittleLeoniePrime]

7 hours ago, Caramello said:

Ah yes yes very smart, go try that out and let me know how it went :)

I'm just saying this is the statement on anim cancels in thg post specifically:

Quote

Following this, we aim to remove the problem surgically at its core - the animation cancels. As such, we’re only removing the ability to activate Cloud Walker while a Heavy Slam animation is currently being used. 

a roll animation is no longer a slam animation. playing like that for a while now tho it does feel more clunky an precarious and I guess you'd need rolling guard now 🤷‍♀️

[IceBen]

15 hours ago, Daiphelion said:

I'd maybe argue the changes to the 2 as well.  Lifted Status, as a Ragdoll, confers the opportunity to hit multiple hit locations on an enemy simultaneously; that's why Gas is so ludicrously effective with it.  This new Lifted state may not (we will see, I guess) allow for that and additionally, if you are like me, you send out the 2 and then tap Fusion Strike to end the Lifted and draw enemies together like a mini grouping utility, complete with defence strip which looks like it may not work either. 

I've seen this multi-hitting gas sentiment a few times, but per testing ragdolling doesn't do anything for the status (including Caliban's 2). What exactly are you doing?

[dwqrf]

I think Caliban's passive is a great issue the Warframe has that might be considered overpowered ; because it's an Aura that affect everything in Affinity range.

I wouldn't even care for any of the others proposed changed, even the removal of AoE Strip Defense, if only the passive was not completely negated by Adaptation, and stacked with it instead.

Like, Equinox has a passive that stack with Equilibrium for example. Hildryn has a better passive than Shield Gating mecanic.

The solution that seem evident to me is to remove the AoE Aura in affinity range from Caliban's passive, and therfor, it wouldn't be that strong in squad play, then allowing it to stack with Adaptation for self. Doing so will reduce its hidden power, its effect on self summoned Sentients, but will allow Caliban himself to survive longer, like a Baruuk and its mutliples layers of stacking DR ; and anyways Caliban will be able to support his squad with a better visible effect with Summulyst and its squad shield generation, so he shouldn't need that passive Aura in normal star chart.

Just this little change will make endgame Caliban's player truly happy, even if he nerfed across the board everywhere else.

[Void2258]

Just watching the dev stream+ and it occurred to me to hope koumei's gun fixes the issues with guns that get effects from kills like the entrati guns or the Occucor. Previous "on kills" effects and alt-fires have long had problems due to only activating if the final damage hit was directly from the weapon (no status procs and no credit if you did damage but anything other than the direct damage from the weapon deals the killing blow). This has made using them super unreliable (or requiring mechanics that super charge the direct damage ticks). if they have fixed this for koumei, I hope they go back and apply this fix to the other weapons that depends on procing this way.