Upcoming Ember Changes

[Makya]

I have a question, why does Ember need DR to be viable? (please entertain this newb)

[GTG3000]

I have a question, why does Ember need DR to be viable? (please entertain this newb)

In short - because hugging enemies with no DR doesn't work that well.

Ember is a close range DoT-caster, and she is neither fast, tanky or crowd-controlling enough for that role.

90% total DR that Overheat used to give with right mods was her saving grace, which gave her versatility and made her gameplay fairly fun.

Accelerant is very nice and fun, but it doesn't work terribly well against ranged enemies, and doesn't save her for prolonged amounts of time, which DoT expects of her.

Overall it's mostly a problem with her skills and stats not meshing together too well without something to keep her alive.

[Makya]

In short - because hugging enemies with no DR doesn't work that well.

Ember is a close range DoT-caster, and she is neither fast, tanky or crowd-controlling enough for that role.

90% total DR that Overheat used to give with right mods was her saving grace, which gave her versatility and made her gameplay fairly fun.

Accelerant is very nice and fun, but it doesn't work terribly well against ranged enemies, and doesn't save her for prolonged amounts of time, which DoT expects of her.

Overall it's mostly a problem with her skills and stats not meshing together too well without something to keep her alive.

If her range of her abilities changed and no longer needed to 'hug' her targets, could the DR still be needed? I have several ideas to offer a second breath to Ember (changing Accelerant to a lesser self buff to all heat abilities, changing Fire Blast into an actual staggering shockwave blast and not a DoT in a small area), would the loss of Overheat become much more acceptable?

[GTG3000]

If her range of her abilities changed and no longer needed to 'hug' her targets, could the DR still be needed? I have several ideas to offer a second breath to Ember (changing Accelerant to a lesser self buff to all heat abilities, changing Fire Blast into an actual staggering shockwave blast and not a DoT in a small area), would the loss of Overheat become much more acceptable?

Well, considering that would make her a different warframe altogether, sure.

Personally I think that it would be worthwhile to build on her initial skillset, as is -

Fireball as an AoE CC explosion,

Overheat as a DR/ability range debuff (for balance reasons)

Fireblast as a stunning AoE upon cast, with the enemies in range getting armour debuffs/dot.

WoF as her damaging AoE.

[Acyl]

Accelerant is very nice and fun, but it doesn't work terribly well against ranged enemies

This is a very good point.

Overheat allowed Ember to cast a survivability power pre-emptively, before charging at the enemy. It helped a lot against ranged enemies. Accelerant does nothing to screen us from incoming fire. There are other warframes with very short-range powers and playstyles, but most have some sort of defensive ability that can be used at range, some kind of gap closer power, or so on. Even Nova has Wormhole, and Valkyr has Ripline. The only thing Ember has at range right now is Fireball, which...yeah, okay. Nope. Fireball's still pretty useless. If Fireball were worth casting as our distance option, it might be okay. But it isn't.

A close-range warframe is all fine and well, but we have to actually get into close range first. Right now, it's a bit of a pain.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Acyl

[Brasten]

If her range of her abilities changed and no longer needed to 'hug' her targets, could the DR still be needed? I have several ideas to offer a second breath to Ember (changing Accelerant to a lesser self buff to all heat abilities, changing Fire Blast into an actual staggering shockwave blast and not a DoT in a small area), would the loss of Overheat become much more acceptable?

At which point she isn't Ember anymore. May as well take her boobs away and call her Blaze.

Here is my long standing grievance. Ember did her close range job so well it looked (which can be deceiving) like she needed no effort to play (against Infested). This is what brought out the first big metal cored nerf hit to Overheat. Without any fixes to abilities that were constantly pointed out as her weak ones (Fireball and Fire Blast, where we still are today). Given the corrupted Mod Blind Rage I get the base DR being reduced to 40% off just the Mod card. I can accept that... now.

The problem is with the initial logic fault. That Ember was TOO good at what she did and took NO effort to play. This is a serious fault. Especially when put up against:

Rhino (still, newb's best 2nd frame, for life)

Loki (never seem me again frame)

Nova (which if we keep going the way Scott seems to want take Ember we'll end up at Nova version 0.5, same style of play less the utility)

Vauban (Vortex, Bastille, get real)

Trinity (little miss team never dies)

Valkyr (DR? *pish* not with pure invulnerability for days... and dysfunctional damage output, and a problematic #3 power... something seems familiar here)

=====

I would invite Scott to share his logic behind removing Overheat, and virtually ignoring Fire Blast (still unanswered from Ember's launch: Why doesn't Fire Blast do DoT inside the ring? No seriously, why is there no Damage over Time on the inside of the ring), on the next developer live stream or in the developer workshop. In DETAIL. A simple it "did doesn't fit" or "RIP Overheat" won't cut it. If you're changing Ember's play style say so, and then explain the thought process leading to that change.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Brasten

[CeePee]

I'd really like to hear why Overheat got removed too, after recieving so many nerfs the skill became almost useless. The melee range fire panic proc was one of the good effects it still had.

 

Judging what World on Fire does, Ember is supposed to be a moving damage dealer, and none of the other skills actually complement that. Overheat was the only skill doing that and it got removed.

 

Accelerant should be a moving aura, not an effect applying to only a few enemies when cast.

 

Either buff Embers speed, buff her defensive stats immensely and/or give back Overheat, these are the changes Ember needs.

[LordTrent]

I used to adore my ember and played her a lot-- now I've finally sold her to make way for others, after finding my Oberon was handling higher level infested much better than my Ember was.  She's been poorly handled, and I really hate the removal of Overheat; I used to love it.  I miss the old ember.  Accelerant's damage buff is great-- but the cost isn't worth it, and the loss of cheaper dot aoe and damage reduction, something ember could really USE against the side she's powerful against what with them being swarm enemies, is just too much of a nerf to make up for the 'buff'.

[Tyroki]

Actual power scaling throughout the game for damaging powers would help the Ember, but that just doesn't seem like it's ever going to happen.

 

Why DE wants to keep all the damage front-loaded with no way of expanding in to the higher level game, I just don't freaking know.

 

Against high level enemies, there is still no reason to use damaging powers over a gun. It's all just CC play.

 

Why they changed the Ember, while the game is in this state, I'll never freaking know.

[Mak_Gohae]

I'd really like to hear why Overheat got removed too, after recieving so many nerfs the skill became almost useless. The melee range fire panic proc was one of the good effects it still had.

 

Judging what World on Fire does, Ember is supposed to be a moving damage dealer, and none of the other skills actually complement that. Overheat was the only skill doing that and it got removed.

 

Accelerant should be a moving aura, not an effect applying to only a few enemies when cast.

 

Either buff Embers speed, buff her defensive stats immensely and/or give back Overheat, these are the changes Ember needs.

 

Overheat was probably removed because with the corrupted mods you could get it back to what it was originally.

WoF lets you move because it hits a limited number of enemies to the counter balance to that if letting you choose where you want to put out the damage. She is basically the same as Valkyr now with a bunch of CC and a choose-who-to-damage last power. Frames with a lot of CC dont get to be on the speedy side because they get to stop the enemy from moving. The top speed for CCers is 1.1 which is .1 higher than what she has now.

[hallfrom]

Acceleration works really sucks. It does not stun! What is the sense of it?

[nekrojiji]

For the people who miss overheat.

 

Ember is a damage dealer not a tank.... get over it.

Now it deals enough damage that you don't need overheat. Say "thank you" and leave it like this.

[GTG3000]

For the people who miss overheat.

 

Ember is a damage dealer not a tank.... get over it.

Now it deals enough damage that you don't need overheat. Say "thank you" and leave it like this.

Don't read thread @ Reply

Enough damage? Where, on mercury? This point was already discussed in this thread, thank you for your valuable input.

Edited January 10, 2014 by GTG3000

[CeePee]

For the people who miss overheat.

 

Ember is a damage dealer not a tank.... get over it.

Now it deals enough damage that you don't need overheat. Say "thank you" and leave it like this.

 

Thank you for your contribution, please read the thread and reply again.

[Brasten]

For the people who miss overheat.

Ember is a damage dealer not a tank.... get over it.

Now it deals enough damage that you don't need overheat. Say "thank you" and leave it like this.

For a complete response to this I suggest reading....

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/150376-upcoming-ember-changes

Say "thank you" , and when finished you can rejoin the discussion.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Brasten

[psyanide]

I cannot believe how freaking stubborn the dev in charge of power assignment and balance is being with Ember after all these months. 

 

Dude, ffs, the community at large has spoken. Over and over again. Get over yourself and your 'vision' of this Frame. She was previously a fan favorite. Your SUPPORTERS, the ones you thank all the time on streams, they who spend hours upon hours playing your game - they, we who take time out of our lives to log on here and contribute to the discussion regarding the improvement/growth of your dream project, are directly telling you that your changes to Ember suck. So many of us just don't WANT another glass cannon. We have enough of those. We need more Frames that we can level our melee weapons with, please.

 

Ember has this buff, solid design to her that just conveys physical power and presence. Add in armor made of molten rock that let you rip into a crowd of enemies? Dude, that was just so @(*()$ metal it couldn't be real! (... well, apparently that was the case)  

 

No, we do not, by and large, have experience in game design. On the other hand, most of us have a metric &#!-ton of experience playing games. We can tell you, with a decent degree of accuracy, what is broken, boring and or just plain useless in your great creation. We are not making it up. Most of us did not come here to &!$$ someone else off for the hell of it. 

 

If this many forum goers are telling you that you have taken her in the wrong direction, you really ought to think twice before dismissing us all again and proceeding in the exact opposite direction of what the majority suggested. With no explanation beyond "this is our vision", you just come off as arrogant and uncaring about your fans.

 

Sure, you don't owe us anything and this is your show. On the other hand, your fans owe you nothing either. When fiascoes such as this one rage on and on with deepening customer dissatisfaction, people get up and leave. If you are sick of listening to a large part of your fans calling you out on being plain old wrong, then I am sick of giving your company my hard-earned currency. There is no animosity on my side, I just don't like paying for something that I am constantly frustrated and bored with. Grim, crappy reality.

Edited January 10, 2014 by psyanide

[hallfrom]

For the people who miss overheat.

 

Ember is a damage dealer not a tank.... get over it.

Now it deals enough damage that you don't need overheat. Say "thank you" and leave it like this.

Proceed easier.

Explain your answer. Where and under what conditions do you think that it is enough to do damage ? How do you determine that it DD ?

 

I can not say exactly .

1 its positive quality was damage to a small area on the move without limitation purposes. Now she can not attack more than one enemy at a time.

2 positive quality was deprotected most incoming damage that helped her come closer to the enemy.

3 of its quality was sufficient armor that allowed withstand a certain amount of incoming damage .

 

At the moment, she is not able to inflict enough damage that would quickly incapacitate any enemy above level 25 ( 35 is generally from one WOF 2-3 kills the enemy , even given radius which obliges is close ) .

Acceleration does not add enough damage does not stop the enemy for more than 1 second. Leads to overconsumption of energy ( Total Cost dilemma , spamming 2 or 4, which effectively released? ) .

Her armor against the enemy level 25 is 1-3 hits. What does not help to use the already useless skill .

Proc chance of 1 and 3 skills still not 100% .

Edited January 11, 2014 by hallfrom

[Mak_Gohae]

Get over yourself and your 'vision' of this Frame.

 

This is what needs to be said the to the players.

Ember is not going to be what you want her to be so figure out a new play style with her. 

If you cant then you need to move along.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[CeePee]

This is what needs to be the to the players.

Ember is not going to be what you want her to be so figure out a new play style with her. 

If you cant then you need to move along.

 

So what you're saying it's fine to e.g. remove Iron skin from Rhino, Molecular prime from Nova, Snow globe from Frost or Blessing from Trinity, and just tell people to "deal with it" and "find a new way to play".

 

Ember wasn't broken and Overheat didn't need yet another nerf. This changed the way Ember is played totally, and only for the worse. If I'd want a new way to play, I want it in a form of a new Warframe.

 

People got hyped from Scott saying Ember is getting a buff, which turned out to be a massive lie and outright nerf to the frame. I was actually scared when I heard Ember is getting another look at, and I wasn't scared for nothing.

[Mak_Gohae]

So what you're saying it's fine to e.g. remove Iron skin from Rhino, Molecular prime from Nova, Snow globe from Frost or Blessing from Trinity, and just tell people to "deal with it" and "find a new way to play".

 

This is what has happened to all frames that have powers adjusted and changed. This is not something new.

 

Ember wasn't broken and Overheat didn't need yet another nerf. This changed the way Ember is played totally, and only for the worse. If I'd want a new way to play, I want it in a form of a new Warframe.

 

She wasnt meant to take that much damage and even with the nerf some mod cards made it so the nerf meant nothing so the power got taken away and got replaces by something that players were actively calling for... CC. Specially after DMG 2.0 messed her up because of status chance.

 

People got hyped from Scott saying Ember is getting a buff, which turned out to be a massive lie and outright nerf to the frame. I was actually scared when I heard Ember is getting another look at, and I wasn't scared for nothing.

 

She got a buff but not in what you were looking for.

How she has 3 CC powers.... how is that a nerf?

I would actually like Overheat back but not for defense i rather have the offensive capabilities it has.

Instead of crying over the whole frame being messed up how about you just learn the new style, like everyone had to do with every frame change, and then lets get everyone together who wants certain powers back into a thread where we ask for those powers possibly coming back as extra abilities.

 

I've been saying this since Radial Blast was taken away. Let's get something going where we get more options to customize our frame instead of just keep going on about how you were slapped in the face and so on.

[GTG3000]

Dude, it's Mak_Gohae, don't make eye contact.

[CeePee]

Dude, it's Mak_Gohae, don't make eye contact.

 

Atleast I tried, but now I give up.

[Brasten]

Well, looks like we have Scott's answer to all of this "feedback" we've given. He's killed Ember and we can count on him to NEVER listen to any feedback.

So much for communication and listening to the community in Steve's so called "Year of Yes".

http://youtu.be/MdM8nUNOASg

All thumbs down.

[ThePresident777]

Well, looks like we have Scott's answer to all of this "feedback" we've given. He's killed Ember and we can count on him to NEVER listen to any feedback.

So much for communication and listening to the community in Steve's so called "Year of Yes".

http://youtu.be/MdM8nUNOASg

All thumbs down.

 

That video is 100% true ... at level 1.  Then it's down hill.

[ThePresident777]

The more i play Ember the more i think FireBlast needs to be fused within World on Fire and Ember gets a new #3 like Rhino had.

 

A feedback about Accelerant:

 

The dmg multiplier on Heat dmg is nice but i would extend it to all the "composite elements" that have Heat in it (Blast, Gas and Radiation)

this way the skill would turn way more useful then now...

 

(for balance porpouses you could cut in half the bonus give to these elements since they are only 50% Heat)

 

That's a good idea about Accelerant.  But it only works on the enemies in it's initial cast.

 

Ember is just missing the IT factor.  She's entirely lame.