Upcoming Ember Changes

[CeePee]

Well, looks like we have Scott's answer to all of this "feedback" we've given. He's killed Ember and we can count on him to NEVER listen to any feedback.

So much for communication and listening to the community in Steve's so called "Year of Yes".

http://youtu.be/MdM8nUNOASg

All thumbs down.

 

Guess we're done here then, so much for Scott and listening to feedback.

[SpFinX]

If only they'd listen to https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/160258-fixing-the-fundamentals/ and specifically the idea of removing enemy leveling from game, most of Ember (and other DD frames) problems will go away... You'll be dealing _really_ enough damage to compensate for lack of survivability. This system (player abilities don't grow in power much, enemies don't have level at all) is working fine in Global Agenda. I really enjoyed the fact that you can put on white (most basic) weapons and abilities there and if you don't lack skill, you'll be dealing ~60-70% damage compared to "All-maxed" player.

Edited January 12, 2014 by SpFinX

[CephalonShy]

Whatever, i give up.

[Bladereap3r]

Guess we're done here then, so much for Scott and listening to feedback.

....agreed!! ~ Ugggg! [frown]

[GTG3000]

Well, we done all we could, gentlemen.

[SoulEchelon]

All Ember needs at the moment has nothing to do with her abilities. As of now, her abilities themselves fit what she's supposed to be - a heavily offense -oriented warframe that sacrifices survivability for damage. Her new abilities fit this very well, but don't sit there and think her new video means the final version of Ember - they can easily change her at any time.

 

Really though, the only thing i can see she could use still, is higher speed (Nova's) and a bit more armor (Around Saryn's. Maybe a little less). Other than that, I have no real qualms with Ember. She's still my favorite warframe.

[ZephyrPhantom]

At first, I was like "eh, I'll give Accelerant a chance."

 

Then today I went on a Nightmare mode run with an Ember user on Jupiter.... there were absolutely no situations where Accelerant was really useful, and all those lasers probably would've been soaked up much better by an Overheat. He ended up just WoF-spamming, which is... basically the only thing that Ember can do well now. (Wait, aren't there other frames that can spam their 4 skill and more? *cough*Saryn*cough*Nova*cough*)

 

If DE is so adamant on keeping Accelerant, why not just give Accelerant the "light on fire" damage reduction buff Overheat had? It would satisfy both DE/People that want Accelerant to stay and gives the Ember her unique tanky DPS niche back, satisfying the Overheat crowd.

[SoulEchelon]

At first, I was like "eh, I'll give Accelerant a chance."

 

Then today I went on a Nightmare mode run with an Ember user on Jupiter.... there were absolutely no situations where Accelerant was really useful, and all those lasers probably would've been soaked up much better by an Overheat. He ended up just WoF-spamming, which is... basically the only thing that Ember can do well now. (Wait, aren't there other frames that can spam their 4 skill and more? *cough*Saryn*cough*Nova*cough*)

 

If DE is so adamant on keeping Accelerant, why not just give Accelerant the "light on fire" damage reduction buff Overheat had? It would satisfy both DE/People that want Accelerant to stay and gives the Ember her unique tanky DPS niche back, satisfying the Overheat crowd.

 

Your first problem is going to Nightmare mode to test a Warframe's capabilities. Everything is thrown out the window when it comes to that mode.

 

Also, Ember is tailored toward Infested killing. Accelerant is -perfect- for them, just like how Frost's snowglobe is -perfect- against Corpus/Grineer. I suggest trying Accelerant in OD or a high level Infested Invasion.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Your first problem is going to Nightmare mode to test a Warframe's capabilities. Everything is thrown out the window when it comes to that mode.

Also, Ember is tailored toward Infested killing. Accelerant is -perfect- for them, just like how Frost's snowglobe is -perfect- against Corpus/Grineer. I suggest trying Accelerant in OD or a high level Infested Invasion.

The first point is valid, but I'm not so sure if the second point holds as much weight as I'd like to believe it should.

Ember already has the specs to be good against Infested (Specifically, Fire damage and AoE). What's the point of specializing her even more towards Infested when she could at least be a flexible choice against other factions? (I don't think the Snowglobe comparison is fair, either - Snow Globe is Frost's defining skill, what makes or breaks him in a mission type (Defense). AFAIK, Ember's defining skill(s) were Overheat and WoF due to being able to do reliable DPS while being able to take hits from Infested claws, unlike some of the more fragile caster frames.)

Mind you, I'm ok with keeping Accelerant, I'd just like a way to make it work so that Ember has a utility that satisfies both old and new players.

Edited January 12, 2014 by ZephyrPhantom

[CephalonShy]

Also, Ember is tailored toward Infested killing.

Yeah, which makes her incredibly worthless. I can solo infested defence till wave 40 and probably above with any zero level frame and a rocket launcher.

[SoulEchelon]

The first point is valid, but I'm not so sure if the second point holds as much weight as I'd like to believe it should.

Ember already has the specs to be good against Infested (Specifically, Fire damage and AoE). What's the point of specializing her even more towards Infested when she could at least be a flexible choice against other factions? (I don't think the Snowglobe comparison is fair, either - Snow Globe is Frost's defining skill, what makes or breaks him in a mission type (Defense). AFAIK, Ember's defining skill(s) were Overheat and WoF due to being able to do reliable DPS while being able to take hits from Infested claws, unlike some of the more fragile caster frames.)

Mind you, I'm ok with keeping Accelerant, I'd just like a way to make it work so that Ember has a utility that satisfies both old and new players.

 

I wouldn't say Overheat was a defining skill for her, because it was literally a fire version of Rhino's Iron Skin. A defining skill is something that both strengthens the main traits of a warframe as well as make them unique in some way. Ember becoming a flaming Rhino is not defining at all, and made her very overpowered.

 

Accelerant, Fire Blast, and WoF are certainly unique. No one else can give a debuff like Accelerant, no one can make a sustained ring of damage in a particular spot, and WoF's damage output is notably different from everyone else's.

 

That said, I pointed out Infested missions because she's one of the best against them - not due to their weakness to fire, but because of their charging capabilities. She's a close range magic caster - hence why I'd compare her to a more damage focusing Saryn in a way. She can wreck just as much face to Grineer and even Corpus - I take my Ember pretty much everywhere. But just like all the other warframes, she has weaknesses to certain enemy types. Yeah - Frost = best thing to use for Grineer/Corpus Defense. Trinity = best thing to use for overall support. Ember = best thing to use for Infested everything.

 

Here's something to ponder about: Notice how the two main warframes that are called "OP" are the ones that seem to be great against every single thing: Rhino and Nova. No way will DE touch Rhino again thanks to the outrageous backlash of his Iron Skin getting nerfed a little (and it was incredibly needed). They stated Nova will be looked at, but they're taking their time because they know yet another explosion will take place whenever that happens. This is why I think, other than a buff in speed and a touch of armor, Ember is currently fine. She has strengths against close ranged enemies and weaknesses against long range.

 

 

Yeah, which makes her incredibly worthless. I can solo infested defence till wave 40 and probably above with any zero level frame and a rocket launcher.

 

Prove it.

Edited January 13, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[ThePresident777]

I was never an ember fan.  I wanted to be.  But, she never had an it factor, mechnically.  She looks great.  Doesn't really play great.  She feels lame, nerfed.

 

Her run speed is terrible.  I can't forma anything with less than a 1.1 sprint speed.  Even then, I'm not going to forma Valkyr because she is lame.  But, anyway, I gotta have fast and I think it fits the fire theme.

 

I was never an overheat fan.  It was too much like Iron Skin and I never really understood it.  Does it burn bullets?  I guess.  But, wouldn't the molten bullets still have momentum?  If they vaporize, wouldn't that be a poison?  I don't know.

 

Ember needs to be an AOE power house, like a conflagration.  DE needs to research fire, combustion, and the effects of extreme heat and get creative.  Wildfires can produce winds that are 10 times stronger than the winds surrounding them?  That could be interesting.

 

The fact that WoF moves with ember is interesting.  But the numbers are lame.  They are Nerf Hammer lame.  Not worthy of a Galatine of Buffing.

[SoulEchelon]

I was never an ember fan.  I wanted to be.  But, she never had an it factor, mechnically.  She looks great.  Doesn't really play great.  She feels lame, nerfed.

 

Her run speed is terrible.  I can't forma anything with less than a 1.1 sprint speed.  Even then, I'm not going to forma Valkyr because she is lame.  But, anyway, I gotta have fast and I think it fits the fire theme.

 

I was never an overheat fan.  It was too much like Iron Skin and I never really understood it.  Does it burn bullets?  I guess.  But, wouldn't the molten bullets still have momentum?  If they vaporize, wouldn't that be a poison?  I don't know.

 

Ember needs to be an AOE power house, like a conflagration.  DE needs to research fire, combustion, and the effects of extreme heat and get creative.  Wildfires can produce winds that are 10 times stronger than the winds surrounding them?  That could be interesting.

 

The fact that WoF moves with ember is interesting.  But the numbers are lame.  They are Nerf Hammer lame.  Not worthy of a Galatine of Buffing.

 

I agree with some points, disagree with others, but everyone's entitled to their opinion. Speed, we do agree on. She's far too slow...and that makes absolutely no sense, since she needs to be -at least- "normal speed" to use her abilities effectively.

[Makya]

she needs to be -at least- "normal speed" to use her abilities effectively.

1.0 -is- normal speed.

[GTG3000]

I wouldn't say Overheat was a defining skill for her, because it was literally a fire version of Rhino's Iron Skin. A defining skill is something that both strengthens the main traits of a warframe as well as make them unique in some way. Ember becoming a flaming Rhino is not defining at all, and made her very overpowered.

Yes, yes it was her defining skill, alongside with WoF. It was different enough from IS, both before IS nerf (CC immunity and invulnerability VS DR and AoE) and after (Absorb shield with CC imunity VS DR on a timer). It was strenghening her main traits, giving her enough durability to be in the fray and use her WoF. What made her OP was lack of cap on damage reduction percentage that was abused to hell when Focus stopped being the only ability power mod, not the fact that she had an ability to offset her low armour, low health and low speed.

But, of course, adding a hard cap was below the devs. Replacing overheat with accelerant threw one playstyle out of the window and introcuced another one, where you die as soon as your abilities stop killing everything, and spam accelerant like crazy because you have nothing else to stand between you and the hordes of enemies. I understand that DE is trying to make warframes actually require supports and such, but it's not a smart thing to do in a game with only 4 players per match.

On the point of uniqueness, Accelerant is a mix between Blind and MP, so it's not that unique, just like Fireblast isn't completely unique (or providing that much damage or CC to matter), and just like Overheat wasn't a completely new word in warframe abilities.

I was never an ember fan.  I wanted to be.  But, she never had an it factor, mechnically.  She looks great.  Doesn't really play great.  She feels lame, nerfed.

 

Her run speed is terrible.  I can't forma anything with less than a 1.1 sprint speed.  Even then, I'm not going to forma Valkyr because she is lame.  But, anyway, I gotta have fast and I think it fits the fire theme.

 

I was never an overheat fan.  It was too much like Iron Skin and I never really understood it.  Does it burn bullets?  I guess.  But, wouldn't the molten bullets still have momentum?  If they vaporize, wouldn't that be a poison?  I don't know.

 

Ember needs to be an AOE power house, like a conflagration.  DE needs to research fire, combustion, and the effects of extreme heat and get creative.  Wildfires can produce winds that are 10 times stronger than the winds surrounding them?  That could be interesting.

 

The fact that WoF moves with ember is interesting.  But the numbers are lame.  They are Nerf Hammer lame.  Not worthy of a Galatine of Buffing.

Oh hey, we're in a game where magical space ninjas fight robots, cloned soldiers and zombies. If you're gonna argue how realistic a DR is, you're free to show yourself out.

[hallfrom]

http://youtu.be/MdM8nUNOASg

 

Complete nonsense . They recorded that on Mercury ?

Rotten " acceleration" is not working for more than 5 enemies within 5 yards . It stops enemies less than a second , even for fixed duration.

The world on fire more disorienting and useless against opponents above level 25? And work 3-5 second with mod. Where there is heavy damage ? Rhino deal damage heavier.

I am interested in the answer developers plan to make any changes ?

I inequality present acceleration ... It is not effective, yesterday tried to use it for 2 hours.

Edited January 13, 2014 by hallfrom

[SoulEchelon]

1.0 -is- normal speed.

 

Sorry, I posted that kind of in a hurry, and told myself to edit it to be not so vague. Her speed should be somewhere around Nova's. It'd fit far better than her current (slow) speed.

 

 

 

Yes, yes it was her defining skill, alongside with WoF. It was different enough from IS, both before IS nerf (CC immunity and invulnerability VS DR and AoE) and after (Absorb shield with CC imunity VS DR on a timer). It was strenghening her main traits, giving her enough durability to be in the fray and use her WoF. What made her OP was lack of cap on damage reduction percentage that was abused to hell when Focus stopped being the only ability power mod, not the fact that she had an ability to offset her low armour, low health and low speed.

But, of course, adding a hard cap was below the devs. Replacing overheat with accelerant threw one playstyle out of the window and introcuced another one, where you die as soon as your abilities stop killing everything, and spam accelerant like crazy because you have nothing else to stand between you and the hordes of enemies. I understand that DE is trying to make warframes actually require supports and such, but it's not a smart thing to do in a game with only 4 players per match.

 

 

I just don't understand how people seem to be "dying" the second they run out of energy. For one, Ember has an extremely high energy cap without modding. you'd have to really be spamming hard and not using any form of conservation for her to run out of energy quickly. And even then, simply -leaving- the fray for a second, using your guns, and keeping an eye on energy orb drops totally fixes that particular "downside". basically, play her like you would any other frame that ran out of energy and doesn't have a high base armor stat.

Edited January 13, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[hallfrom]

I wouldn't say Overheat was a defining skill for her, because it was literally a fire version of Rhino's Iron Skin. A defining skill is something that both strengthens the main traits of a warframe as well as make them unique in some way. Ember becoming a flaming Rhino is not defining at all, and made her very overpowered.

 

Accelerant, Fire Blast, and WoF are certainly unique. No one else can give a debuff like Accelerant, no one can make a sustained ring of damage in a particular spot, and WoF's damage output is notably different from everyone else's.

 

That said, I pointed out Infested missions because she's one of the best against them - not due to their weakness to fire, but because of their charging capabilities. She's a close range magic caster - hence why I'd compare her to a more damage focusing Saryn in a way. She can wreck just as much face to Grineer and even Corpus - I take my Ember pretty much everywhere. But just like all the other warframes, she has weaknesses to certain enemy types. Yeah - Frost = best thing to use for Grineer/Corpus Defense. Trinity = best thing to use for overall support. Ember = best thing to use for Infested everything.

 

Here's something to ponder about: Notice how the two main warframes that are called "OP" are the ones that seem to be great against every single thing: Rhino and Nova. No way will DE touch Rhino again thanks to the outrageous backlash of his Iron Skin getting nerfed a little (and it was incredibly needed). They stated Nova will be looked at, but they're taking their time because they know yet another explosion will take place whenever that happens. This is why I think, other than a buff in speed and a touch of armor, Ember is currently fine. She has strengths against close ranged enemies and weaknesses against long range.

 

 

 

Prove it.

Yesterday I went  a playing mission's with Ember aganst infected . She does not have any bonuses in comparison with other classes , even against those infected. Its current level - complete worthlessness . At level 15 mobs I killed me three times in a game where the other characters are played quietly .

With the introduction of " accelerator " there was only one option - spam WOF! Which means that the selection mechanics skills bl absolutely incorrect . I can hold out for 25 minutes in survival ... But it requires a lot of efforts ( it's bad for the hands ) . And, accordingly, the game loses all her pleasure. Again, De could leave her mechanics and animation work as the previous skill (aura 12 sekond without damage absorption and with the addition of speed). But they had just killed one of the popular classes in the game . They have achieved . Ember now seeing many people simply overlook . I look at her playing with irony . And sorry about 4 forms spent in the shuffle.

Not it be easier to just remove the chicken from the game ?

Edited January 13, 2014 by hallfrom

[hallfrom]

1.0 -is- normal speed.

For a character with 150 armor and damage from 4 skill 800 - YES!

Edited January 13, 2014 by hallfrom

[Othergrunty]

Well, looks like we have Scott's answer to all of this "feedback" we've given. He's killed Ember and we can count on him to NEVER listen to any feedback.

So much for communication and listening to the community in Steve's so called "Year of Yes".

All thumbs down.

 

Welp, i guess the "improved" version is now the official one and for Scott the whole thing is over. Nice mental "now shut up" in video form towards all  who have given great suggestions on how to improve her or at least wanted to have more freedom in how to player Ember, except for that one guy who suggested Accelerant.

How nice knowing that i don't have to use her over any other frame anymore. Except if i want to challenge myself.

 

Also how nice to demonstrate the advantage of accelerant by using an Ignis flame thrower you can only get via clan research. Also never seen a high level Infested mission where Fireblast would instakill infested running into the ring like that. What were those, level 1? Try that from the video on higher levels or Derelicts and you can say hello to a bunch of "weak claw attacks" ripping you appart in seconds and since you can't just pop in overheat anymore to stagger them with your close in flames you have to rely on having enough energy to cast WOF.

Anti-infested frame? Yeah sure, after you made encountering Infested a chance thing. Great idea!

 

Now all Ember has going for her is her appearance, sadly without the cool overheat effect applyable.

 

At least now that it's over he won't nerf Ember even more. Now we just need to dread the next frame he wants "to improve".

 

Really had more hopes for all this when Scott announced her "being under the microscope" some months ago.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Othergrunty

[Makya]

For a character with 150 armor and damage from 4 skill 800 - YES!

Rhino/Frost are Speed 0.9, not 1.0.

 

Speed 1.0 Frames: Excal, Mag, Oberon, Trinity, Vauban, Volt

[ThePresident777]

....... when Focus stopped being the only ability power mod...............

 

 

This is sad.  That is one of the main arguments that nerfers use to destroy Warframe.  It seems that they want the game to revolve around unobtanium.  Without unobtainium, you are expected to have a poor experience.  They don't seem to think that games are just supposed to be fun, regardless of what you have obtained.

 

Incidentally, did you know that DE released a Startrek game in April 2013? 

   Tell me, does that look like an action game?  If that is an action game then so is a knitting game.  Technically, knitting is an action.  Therefore, a knitting game is an action game.  Never mind the leisurely pace.  Pacing has nothing to do with action, so seems to be the current gaming industry standard.

 

DE is killing Warframe the way they killed Startrek.  They are ripping off Mass Effect 3 and that game is dead.  Ripp offs don't fair well and rip offs of dead games fair even worse.  It's sad but the game design philosophy at DE seems to be "Follow the leader, eat your vegitables, get back in the mine, slave."  That is not compelling game play..

 

Oh hey, we're in a game where magical space ninjas fight robots, cloned soldiers and zombies. If you're gonna argue how realistic a DR is, you're free to show yourself out.

 

Regardless, there are better and worse ways to create fantasy or fiction.  Just pulling it out of one's butt is assinine.  You need a referance or else fantasy and fiction are stupid.  You have to give the player a sense of reality from which to compare the fantasy/fiction and take them on a journey of ever increasing wackyness.  Incidentally, wildfires can produce winds that are 10 times stronger than the winds surrounding them.  Think of the possibilities.  Reality is good for something.

Edited January 13, 2014 by ThePresident777

[LukeAura]

1.0 -is- normal speed.

But 1.044 is the mean.

1.1 is the median

1.0 is the mode.

So depending on your definition of normal, it could be any of those.

I've always been on the understanding that it is not as a modifier to a base speed but a representation of the speed itself. 1.0 units distance/units time, not, 1.0 * X units distance/units time. Therefore the value 1.0 just looked normal, because a value of 1 looks normal. 

 

[Makya]

But 1.044 is the mean.

1.1 is the median

1.0 is the mode.

So depending on your definition of normal, it could be any of those.

I've always been on the understanding that it is not as a modifier to a base speed but a representation of the speed itself. 1.0 units distance/units time, not, 1.0 * X units distance/units time. Therefore the value 1.0 just looked normal, because a value of 1 looks normal. 

I won't disagree that I would like to see her as a 40 Armor, 1.05 - 1.1 Sprint speed frame.

[GTG3000]

This is sad.  That is one of the main arguments that nerfers use to destroy Warframe.  It seems that they want the game to revolve around unobtanium.  Without unobtainium, you are expected to have a poor experience.  They don't seem to think that games are just supposed to be fun, regardless of what you have obtained.

 

Incidentally, did you know that DE released a Startrek game in April 2013? 

   Tell me, does that look like an action game?  If that is an action game then so is a knitting game.  Technically, knitting is an action.  Therefore, a knitting game is an action game.  Never mind the leisurely pace.  Pacing has nothing to do with action, so seems to be the current gaming industry standard.

 

DE is killing Warframe the way they killed Startrek.  They are ripping off Mass Effect 3 and that game is dead.  Ripp offs don't fair well and rip offs of dead games fair even worse.  It's sad but the game design philosophy at DE seems to be "Follow the leader, eat your vegitables, get back in the mine, slave."  That is not compelling game play..

 

 

Regardless, there are better and worse ways to create fantasy or fiction.  Just pulling it out of one's butt is assinine.  You need a referance or else fantasy and fiction are stupid.  You have to give the player a sense of reality from which to compare the fantasy/fiction and take them on a journey of ever increasing wackyness.  Incidentally, wildfires can produce winds that are 10 times stronger than the winds surrounding them.  Think of the possibilities.  Reality is good for something.

DE made that? Really? I mean... Come on, DE are awesome people save for Scott in edge cases, really? Dear god.

Also, ME3 was a very fun game from gameplay standpoint (and I spent a lot of time in multiplayer. Well, before they started "balancing"), I wouldn't just throw that out.

And, well, I don't say "Nerf it to the ground", I just don't think that allowing for personal protection with no limits would be kind of OP, and it was pretty good at 91%. There should be limiting factors to survival abilities, like the damage limit on IS, need to hug enemies with old Link (which could be increaced overall), time limit on invisibility and former limit on damage reduction of Overheat.

And, about Overheats' DR - if Ember can somehow protect herself from such high temperatures, perhaps it worked by overheating the incoming projectiles to the point of explosive evaporation, with the layer of whatever she has on her reacting like active armour against anything that enters the field of ninja magic holding it on her?

And, I did suggest turning Fireblast into a defencive ability. Those huge fires look like they would be difficult to shoot through, or at least see through.

Edited January 13, 2014 by GTG3000