Dragon_AV Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 ...so? This thread is about general mechanics sitting behind how current beam weapons work, not some ninja-nerfs that shouldn't happen. I wanted to type something else then bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyFugee.TTV Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 This old continuous weapon system needs to be put right back into place, if DE wants continuous weapons to have the same DPS as they do now they can adjust the damage and status outputs accordingly. As someone who maximized the use Flux, Embolist, Ignis, Synapse and Amprex, then stopped using them, I agree completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalbawkses Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Let's make this happen! Contact beam weapons are as fun as hell, even if they only last for about 10 seconds. It would be nice if contact beam weapon can get a mod that allows it to behave like the amprex or atomos for extreme CCing but it probably won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redhux Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Signed again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashrah Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 just played volt with amprax shoting trough shild big delay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[DE]Grzegorz Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 just played volt with amprax shoting trough shild big delay Continuous weapons used through shield aren't exactly delayed, they just don't hit where you are aiming. The beam gets extended in wrong direction (same deal as with current Glaxion, but even worse thanks to increased range). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpite Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 It's a technical difficulty, as with any other weapon category, one ammo unit usually means 1 shot (and making 1 shot use more than 1 ammo unit is not that hard, look at Kohm). The problem with continuous weapons is that these weapons have separate probe rate (accuracy check at ~30Hz, which would seem to be game's internal clock speed) and ammo consumption rate (firerate), this creates a bunch of problems as hitrate isn't exactly tied to firerate and this issue is quite hard to overcome without turning continuous weapons into a generic weapon with a bunch of fancy effects which are mostly smoke and mirrors (e.g. EM1 in Advanced Warfare, that's just an usual hitscan weapon forced to shoot every frame with fancy laser jumping around) The problem with what we want is that continuous weapons can be easily oversampled with macros, using less ammo and dealing higher damage than they are supposed to. That's why they got nerfed in the first place... We can either hope for someone to actually find a solution that will make continuous weapons responsive while keeping their mechanical uniqueness or instead make them illusionary laser weapons while in reality they are just reskinned generic hitscan/projectile guns with hardcapped range. What a mess... So yeah, the problem with examples. Quanta. Has ~30Hz tickrate and 1RPS, that means that damage check happens 30 times a second (every ~33ms) while entire unit of ammo is consumed every second. Damage applied on each tick Macro away, dealing all 30 ticks worth of damage in like half of that time, as there apparently is no forced delay between forcing a tick on and off. Damage applied with each unit of ammo consumed Even worse than we have now, for sure, Amprex would deal damage every 50ms while Synapse would deal it every 100ms, but the current system shows damage every 333ms, after 10 damage checks or so. Firerate tied to hitrate Every beam weapon would need to have 30 times bigger ammo capacity and gain 30 times more ammo from a single drop, overwhelming at least. We can obviously hide it behind smoke and mirrors, but then we get rounding errors and we don't exactly fix anything. We could also simply give every beam weapon 30RPS base and rebalance them accordingly (effectively removing status/sec as well) but this entirely destroys their mechanical uniqueness and turns them into a generic weapon of given category, with hardcapped range and wonky effects. Effectively the easiest thing to do but do we really want it? Personally, it would be easier if the beam weapons increased in damage the longer they were accurately kept on target, as the energy from the beam ablates the target more and more. You could create a balanced number that worked similar to the melee multipliers to allow a player to cut a target down faster then you would do with a bullet-by-bullet damage mechanic, starting with lower numbers but building up. It would be a more interesting "unique" feature for the weapon class as well. Still, this is all academic at this stage. We kill way too fast in this game, so "special mechanics" are moot. We just revolve the entire game around the real delivered DPS and care little for special stuff happening at the other end of a weapon barrel. in something like Borderlands you could say that on an even footing, a beam energy weapon would help cut limbs off robots, or deal with weak spots on mini-bosses, but here? Not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfallen Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkfire. Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 That delay has been irritating me since the day they changed it. I've always loved my 7 forma'd synapse, even more so then the amprex. But, I rarely play with it anymore due to this reason. Signed and approved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolvenEdge Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 How do I sign? I put in my +1 a while ago, is that what we're talking about, or is there some other signature I need to put in? This really needs fixing. I don't mind the delay (read and weep, macro-using cheaters) but the way damage is calculated to stat/crit chance makes many of these weapons less than useful above level twenty, as they depend on criticals or status chance to stand up to mainstream weaponry. I'm all about the oddball stuff, my weapons are bows and beams, I avoid guns when I can... just not my thing. It's slightly disappointing being unable to satisfactorily work with the mechanic that the weapon is based on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgin Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Bring back Ignis top weapon :c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CataReverb Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Status per second is currently being affected by speed mods. I know it wasn't when this thread went up and when I first commented, but between that and the combustion beam, continuous weapons are in a much better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrNishi Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Status per second is currently being affected by speed mods. I know it wasn't when this thread went up and when I first commented, but between that and the combustion beam, continuous weapons are in a much better place. Does it also treat Base Damage Per second for the status damage calculation? Glaxion and Synoid could use large DoT due to soo many projectiles per sec. Example: Synoid 28 base + 220% From Hornet Strike W/60% Fire-rate from Lethal Torrent would be 89.6 base damage times *24 fire-rate or 2,150.4 base damage per second. On heat, electricity, or toxin(Gas) that would be 50% of that 2150.4 or 1,075.2. So Heat and Toxin (Gas) would be 1,075.2 DoT tick. Spectra with Hornet Strike boosting Base damage to 96 and LT increasing fire Rate to 8.0, would allow for 768 base damage per second and Slash (35%) Bleed procs of 268.8. On PS4 it does not seem like Fire-rate is affecting Status on Continous weapons, but I will test again after 17 update. I'm currently only seeing 168 Bleed procs on Spectra (96damage * base 5.0 fire rateb 430 ; 430 base damage per second times 35% is 168 Bleed DoT), but if Fire-rate is now affecting status that would be a nice boost. Should also slightly boost Ignis and Embolist....Embolist with innate Toxin DoT regardless of elemental combo. Amprex and Atomos....hmmm I look forward to seeing the results of status damage with base damage per second adjusted with fire-rate mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrNishi Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 How do I sign? ... I believe by "sign", they mean subscribed to thread. Upper Right where it says "Follow this topic" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srlhama Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 This change explain my slash procs on Flux Rifle today... Will try Glaxion ASAP on simulacrum... And Nukor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrNishi Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 This change explain my slash procs on Flux Rifle today... Will try Glaxion ASAP on simulacrum... And Nukor... As-in the procs are larger or there were more of them(RoF increasing frequency of procs)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srlhama Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 More often, but I was using ressonance so all damage was really high. But I tried today with radiantion and every enemy the beam touch it was proccing. Glaxion now can achieve 300%+ status chance with crazy builds with Speed Trigger/Vile Acceleration, "normal" ones with Shred reach 150%+ status. But I didn't try it gonna make tests on simulacrum and try to upload a video ASAP.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolake Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) More often, but I was using ressonance so all damage was really high. But I tried today with radiantion and every enemy the beam touch it was proccing. Glaxion now can achieve 300%+ status chance with crazy builds with Speed Trigger/Vile Acceleration, "normal" ones with Shred reach 150%+ status. But I didn't try it gonna make tests on simulacrum and try to upload a video ASAP..t it's still terrible and adds ammo waste with no significant proc increase. Are you an avid user of continuos beam weapons like Amprex? It even feels like its worse now but Ive no solid data to compare. Edited September 1, 2015 by Monolake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srlhama Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I need to test it with Glaxio to have sure about primaries. But in the case of Nukor it is proccing more because now Lethal Torrent add much more status... Beam weapons need a Nightmare mod for Punch Trough and Status or Range+. Rate of fire hurt ammo efficiency really hard, but now it buffs status at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrNishi Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) I need to test it with Glaxio to have sure about primaries. But in the case of Nukor it is proccing more because now Lethal Torrent add much more status... Beam weapons need a Nightmare mod for Punch Trough and Status or Range+. Rate of fire hurt ammo efficiency really hard, but now it buffs status at least. 17 hits PS4 tomorrow, so I threw another Forma in for (5- polarities total) to test Galaxion with 56.0 Fire-rate.Have an Idea to test Arcane Acceleration with Arcane Avenger on Galaxion....need to acquire some more Acceleration enhancements. Edited September 2, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srlhama Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Bad news, on my only 1 forma Glaxion the results were quite bad, using Corrosive +Cold and Corrosive + Blast it was proc'ing much less than I expected, making the ammo end and not killing a lvl 90 gunner. On the Flux Rifle things was a bit better even with less than half status chance of Glaxion, it took 30 seconds to kill a lvl 90 Corruted Heavy Gunner using Corrosive + Heat. Just to compare Burston P took 15/17 seconds. But keep on mind both of these weapons had no forma. I think the high fire rate of Glaxion is a downside of the weapon, they should decrease it to 15sec and give an small buff to damage, I was expecting multiple procs with more than 100% chance per second, but it looks like it is still the same thing before, just UI numbers showing 100%+. I started this post yesterday and wake up this morning with the phone on the ground ringing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrNishi Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) Bad news, on my only 1 forma Glaxion the results were quite bad, using Corrosive +Cold and Corrosive + Blast it was proc'ing much less than I expected, making the ammo end and not killing a lvl 90 gunner. On the Flux Rifle things was a bit better even with less than half status chance of Glaxion, it took 30 seconds to kill a lvl 90 Corruted Heavy Gunner using Corrosive + Heat. Just to compare Burston P took 15/17 seconds. But keep on mind both of these weapons had no forma. I think the high fire rate of Glaxion is a downside of the weapon, they should decrease it to 15sec and give an small buff to damage, I was expecting multiple procs with more than 100% chance per second, but it looks like it is still the same thing before, just UI numbers showing 100%+. I started this post yesterday and wake up this morning with the phone on the ground ringing... I'll definitely have to test today after update installs:Glaixon was killing level 95 Corrupted Heavy Gunner Eximus in around 25secs, which was not horrible. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/496367-comparing-some-unliked-weapons-timeammo-to-kill-high-armored-targets/ Edited September 2, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatsniper Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Damage calculation needs a complete overhaul, not just for continuous weaponry. This is how it should work: When damaging an enemy, only one number should appear. However, that number is dynamic and will increase smoothly the longer you sustain fire on said foe. DoT effects will also increase that number continuously and smoothly, not once every second. If you want an example, Natural Selection 2 does this very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrNishi Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Afyer testing with Galxion and Spectra with Fire-rate adjusting status-chance. Status has improved but still is mot ad ideal as invidual status chance. Oddly, it seems Crit damage has gotten larger. I am guessing the fire-rate was not being fully taken into account before hand and now crit damage seems much higher, not reliable, but higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkfire. Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Continuous crit weapons still feel lack luster still to this day, I hope they change the way damage is calculated either back to the old system or revise it x.x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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