The Eviscerators Megathread

[Tarudizer]

I can just picture the sad look on a player's face when he builds a Miter for himself expecting it to be as good as the one they use. Sad, sad, sad.

[Roogan]

oh please those things are just as easy to deal with as any special unit.

 

The problem here isnt that they do too much damage, its that you guys aren't countering them properly.

 

 

You have an enemy that shoots slow moving disks that do very high amounts of damage.

 

they are basically an anit-tank unit

 

You do not counter anit tank units by making yourself more tank

 

You avoid getting hit in the first place.

 

those disks are easy to dodge with a little bit of effort, and any frame that has decent agility should be able to avoid them without even thinking about it.

 

This being a Team based game, and a game with multiple ways to play, I find them perfectly suited the way they are.

 

gives something for more agile frames to counter and makes tank type frames less invincible if their not carefull.

 

I'm really surprised that this many people are having issues against such a basic enemy type, and aren't seeing the obvious logic here.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Roogan

[Cyrionn]

Btw as I was reading the OP and the discussion, I seriously think you guys need to get some tactic skill under your warframes. Recently I played a lot of invasion missions against grineer, because I just hate the fact they've taken over the starchart.

 

What I was watching:

* Most players, even on unlit corridors, tend to rush in without thinking, but as stated above, eviscerators often hiding around the corners.

* They are real cowards. They are running behind corners and stuff, and this is exploitable.

* Yes, their bleed proc seems a bit OP, but it IS avoidable with a bit thinking.

* Again, most of the players aren't using their long range weapons, they are going close quarters instead.

 

Most of you guys already played the new invasion teleport area, which ends up in a room and a long corridor on the grineer side. I've easily cleaned that room or corridor with Ember's fireball + Dread + Wraith twin vipers. Yes, there were times when I went down, mostly when I was trying to revive fools who run into the mobs.

 

So, get a weapon which have punch through effect to make sure it hits through stuff, and/or have an AOE effect, because they aren't that tough. And use your warframe abilities, for god's sake, that's why they are there.

Yup, I agree with most of this. I think people need to stop running around roflpwning-P4Wing and think that the only hard stuff in this game is T3 void.

As I always loved the Phobos tileset I spent hours farming there (this Wendell survival!), so basically Eviscerators aren't really schocking for me. They hurt, the bleeding proc is a pain, but they fall fast and take their time before starting to shoot. I am more impressed by Napalms able to shoot you from 50-60meters away.

And common, a Rhino taken away by an Evi that's not lvl 50+...really...time to stop sleeping under this Iron Skin I'd say, it's because you're tanky that you have to face damages head on.

 

The way I play I see not much of a problem with Eviscerators, just run from cover to cover, use your parkour skills (the slide/jump/slide is waaaay more safer than zorencoptering) as Megan would do, be that hero out of a John Woo movie (nobody had this impression while jumping and firing at the same time?). And maybe sharpen your aiming skills a bit and start to think that Heavy Caliber isn't that much dope...

 

That said maybe these ennemies are a bit too tough to be earthlings, our newcommers may have hard times. Maybe they are a bit too tanky, well still falling with two headshots instead of one.

But please do not remove or nerf them too much, or nerf the Scorpions as I read earlier... We NEED challenge, we have overpowered weapons and, if you're not playing Valkyr of course, we have a kit of abilities that often can (more or less) wipe or control an entire crowd.

 

And the fact that Corpus are easier to fight in most of the places just means they need a buff, not the other way around. We should see more of those Anti-MOAs or Fusion ones when level goes up for exemple, or maybe few regular Hyenas ?

 

The only thing I'd like to see nerfed is the bleeding proc, I admit it's a bit too much when a single bullet fired from miles away takes out half of your health or even kills you. The proc ticks should have a value that depends on targets max hp and should be affected by armor.

This way when reaching high mobs level a poor Lancer won't take your Nova away in a single shot that didn't even scratched her shield, and this would make the challenge a bit more fun than the classic proc equals kill threshold which just means more revives to do, like Trinity ever cared!

Edited February 10, 2014 by Cyrionn

[DoomFruit]

The problem is that they get bleed procs even though their attack only took off 10% of your shields.

 

That's it. Nothing else needs changing. Don't need to muck around with their health, or give them a windup, or change their rate of fire. All that needs to be done is to fix bleed procs. No health damage = no bleeding. Simple as that.

[Roogan]

The problem is that they get bleed procs even though their attack only took off 10% of your shields.

 

That's it. Nothing else needs changing. Don't need to muck around with their health, or give them a windup, or change their rate of fire. All that needs to be done is to fix bleed procs. No health damage = no bleeding. Simple as that.

 

 

If thats the case then we shouldnt be able to make enemys bleed through their shields ether, and if that happend everyone would cry about slash damage being nerfed.

[SWJ3sus]

 

The problem is that they get bleed procs even though their attack only took off 10% of your shields.

 

That's it. Nothing else needs changing. Don't need to muck around with their health, or give them a windup, or change their rate of fire. All that needs to be done is to fix bleed procs. No health damage = no bleeding. Simple as that.

 

I sort of agree..

however as meantiont, this would also mean taking away the Bleed thru shields from the tenno's weapons... in effect nerving slash..

Maybe a slightly diffrent approch would work.

Assuming we want to change as little as possible to game mechanics,

why not make the bleed proc if shields are full BUT, proc as normal DMG,

not as health dmg.

aka you will get 5 ticks of 50 dmg ( or whatver the values are),

If you haz shields, dmg procs shields, your out of shields dmg procs health...

Or some sort of Midway, say 75% normal dmg, and 25% direct health dmg..

*fit some nice blabla around it why slash procs on shields,

-> the ueber sharpness of the blade somehow manages to cut small curcuits in tenno suit leading to shield leaking, *jsut like all those memory leaks of the u11 ;-)*

think this approch would not ruin bleed, as the main dmg mechanics would stay pretty much untouched. but Reducing the redicualas, * LUlz my rhino died with iron skin and 1300 shields ^^ to this single grenner*

Edit: forgott to meantion my way of fighting them, speed tank/ agility, just run around like headless chicken while "spray n praying" with the soma towords the ruff directions of blades coming at ya ... works pretty well for me on loki/banshee/nova/necros/ .. jsut volt/mag/frost seem bit slow to speed tank em effectivly

Edited February 10, 2014 by SWJ3sus

[ThePresident777]

I just soloed Ophelia against Grineer twice with a MK1-Braton:  Hellfire 11, Stormbringer 11, Infected Clip 11, Cryo Rounds 9, Serration 14.

Rhino:  Rifle Amp 7, Marathon 7, Quick Rest 9, Rush 11, Focus 11, Flow 9, Streamline 9, Iron Skin 7, Rhino Charge 3, Roar 9, Rhino Stomp 13.

Stug:  Fully Loaded

Carrier:  attack disabled.

 

I lost my Iron Skin about 3 times each run.  I did not bleed, not once.  Everything went well.  I just played carefully, taking cover, covering flank, using choke points.   If I had bum rushed or face tanked I would have failed miserably.  If they had bum rushed me I would have Stomped them.  The enemy was sensible.  They stuck together.  Took cover.  Ranged units attacked from range.  In one instance I wounded a Chain Gunner very much and he retreated to cover with the rest of his unit and they all waited for me to come down the corridor.  What they could have done better was coordinate their attacks and focused fire more often.  So hiding behind the heavy and focusing fire would have been their best bet.  But, they were not coordinated well enough for that in many instances.  They should have had a shield wall to hide behind too, and a sniper that can aim.  They didn't have over whelming force on their side in this instance.  In other missions, they attack with more waves, and not just in MD, survival, and Defense.

 

The eviserators were not the worst problem.  The worst problem were the bombards and napalms.  They're tough and they know it.  But they are not stupid enough to bum rush.

Edited February 10, 2014 by ThePresident777

[[DE]Momaw]

You can try and dodge around their sawblades, which usually works at long range. But then you go inside where you're forced to be no more than 5 meters away from a wall and the bouncing sawblades of death seek toward your body with the hunger of a thousand things which are very hungry.

 

I guess the "play more carefully" argument has some merit.... For some game that isn't Warframe, which is densely populated by people who sprint through everything and spam their 4 key.  If you don't rush then you don't get XP because everything is already dead when you get there.

[ThePresident777]

You can try and dodge around their sawblades, which usually works at long range. But then you go inside where you're forced to be no more than 5 meters away from a wall and the bouncing sawblades of death seek toward your body with the hunger of a thousand things which are very hungry.

 

I guess the "play more carefully" argument has some merit.... For some game that isn't Warframe, which is densely populated by people who sprint through everything and spam their 4 key.  If you don't rush then you don't get XP because everything is already dead when you get there.

 

But, if the team is rushing in and killing everything then how is it that you're getting killed?

[leonvision]

Merged topic of same name here, let the discussion continue!

 

and we've been discussing this for literally months, i think we came with the general concensus is bleeding proc is a bad mechanic and needs changed or rebalanced, the first step being remove the shield-bypass.

[Xylia]

But, if the team is rushing in and killing everything then how is it that you're getting killed?

 

Stray sawblades flying around everywhere, because a lot of these rushers are using fast frames and your own frame might not be so fast? You come running down a corridor trying to keep up with your teammates that just aggro'd 2-3 eviscerators and now there's 4-5 metal death blades bouncing off the walls heading for you.

 

Not so easy to dodge in those conditions.

 

If you're a newbie on Earth, a bleed proc puts you in some serious hurt. That's just a single bleed proc.

[Calayne]

Perhaps I'll try more invasions. I recall distinctly that engaging them always meant juggling between several enemy types, multiple eviscerators and a hail of saw blades. I also seem to remember that the Grineer have quite a variety of units which consistently use knockdown and CC abilities as an opening move, and certain units who deal AoE damage which may or may not go through walls and knock you down.

I run Ember Prime, which is relatively weak in terms of survivability without spamming skills, which I dislike.

I also recall they have dead-shot aim, and compensate for your movement, and sliding, flipping amd shooting at medium range still causes you to be hit and result in insane bleeding.

Anyways, I'll make a few more runs with something that isn't a Rhino, who I haven't used in months and especially not when trying to prove the fragility of frames. Maybe something big and beefy. Like a Nekros. Wish me luck.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Calayne

[DoomFruit]

If thats the case then we shouldnt be able to make enemys bleed through their shields ether, and if that happend everyone would cry about slash damage being nerfed.

I'm fine with that. They have shields. I don't expect to hurt them without first removing said shields (toxic damage is a different matter, but that's historical as much as anything else). As for nerfing slash damage, I never notice the effect of bleed procs on enemies, shielded or not.

[Neutralred]

Worrying about ruining bleed for us is a secondary concern. The problem is it's hitting for far, far too much damage from these Grineer - way out of proportion with the initial damage of the initial attack. That seems like a bug that needs fixing, or at the very least a value adjustment. Until that point I'd say that these things have no business on Earth.

[Calayne]

Definitely. I agree that there needs to be an element of challenge in games. But when you play a game, being knocked down tends to only be a bad thing when you are a complete nut case. This thing about the Eviscerators are being argued because of their insane bleed damage for anyone who doesn't use a Rhino or Trinity. But knockdowns? That's something else. And Warframe does knockdowns poorly. It is no longer a challenge at some point, because you become a spectator. That's how bad it can get.

Dynasty warriors: knock down? Certainly. Recovery? Definitely. You can be juggled indefinitely, but with the right timing and a press of a button, yoy back flip to safety.

God of War? Ninja Gaiden? Rygar? Devil May Cry? Darksider? Ninja Blade?

I dunno, man. Those games were pretty challenging to me, but none of them involved bouncing me helplessly up and down the floor to make it feel hard.

The eviscerators can be considered a challenge. But don't ever, ever defend the scorpions, shield lancers and anti-moas which spam cc. That ain't the way to do it, not without some core mechanism for us to react. Heavies, I can deal eith. Even leaders can spam it now.

But those guys are on a whole new level. They even track you when you go invisible and try to run. Ancients and leapers, too.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Calayne

[ThePresident777]

Stray sawblades flying around everywhere, because a lot of these rushers are using fast frames and your own frame might not be so fast? You come running down a corridor trying to keep up with your teammates that just aggro'd 2-3 eviscerators and now there's 4-5 metal death blades bouncing off the walls heading for you.

 

Not so easy to dodge in those conditions.

 

If you're a newbie on Earth, a bleed proc puts you in some serious hurt. That's just a single bleed proc.

 

Now I understand the situation that you are describing better.  They are not killing everything.  They are leaving some behind and you along with them.  Yeah, I totally agree that his is way to much for newbie accounts.  Earth is too early for that.

 

I've gone back to my newbie skivies from time to time and it's a tough slog getting basic mods now.  When I started in April last year, mods were raining down in every match.  You could quickly get a good basic set of mods to a good level.  The tough slog was getting them for each weapon and warframe and the next step was maxing them all.  There was no mod sharing or load out, so, if you think maxing one serration is tough, imagine one per rifle.  Then there is hornet's nest and vitality and redirection ,,,, for each warframe and weapon. 

 

But, it was fun because you had the feeling of abundance, of getting tons of mods in each mission, but you still had a use for them once you maxed anything.  Rares were a lot easier to get, but, you needed a ton of them to out fit all your gear.  I like the old system much much better.  The current system is too austere.  I hate austerity.  It's no fun.  Austerity is a sanitized way of saying poverty.

 

When DE first started talking about loadouts.  I thought they would start from the top of the load out system and work down because it seemed easier to me and fit the old loot system.  It encouraged you to have more potatoes and inventory slots, I think.  Instead DE went bottom up from the mod level, instead of top down from the warframe + primary + secondary + weapon level.  This created inventory tetris which is now crazy with Damage 2.0.  Then followed the austerity as DE, needing to adjust the drop rates for mod sharing, took the opportunity to nerf the drop rates to hell and inflict austerity measures.

 

They keep telling us they will fix the loot tables but they just keep stuffing them with credits caches and ability mods even though we have more credit sources now and you can't sell your last ability mods.

Edited February 10, 2014 by ThePresident777

[NetSlayer]

Idea: Implement blocking against/ cutting sawblade projectiles.

As they are large projectiles they should be easy to see and cut/block away from you (not neccessarily back at them).

This could add a little combat variety to the game.

[tmtke]

Idea: Implement blocking against/ cutting sawblade projectiles.

As they are large projectiles they should be easy to see and cut/block away from you (not neccessarily back at them).

This could add a little combat variety to the game.

 

I think melee 2.0 will probably deal with the parrying - which is a good idea. And there are mods like Reflex Guard and Parry which can be effective (need to try), and I think nobody even bothered trying out blocking on Eviscerator attacks.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Very interesting posts,ThePresident777.

 

@NetSlayer

I was thinking the same thing myself also.

Edited February 10, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Mathinus]

Problem with eviscerators is that they game base lvl + scaling system is flawed.

According to codex eviscerators and elite lancers have same stats, problem is that eviscerator have base lvl of 1 while elite lancer 15.

So, lvl 15 eviscerator is actually much stronger than lvl 15 elite lancer. I wouldnt be surprised if lvl 15 normal lancer would be stronger than lvl 15 elite lancer.

I did some testing and came up with results that show that eviscerators have more armor and 3-4x more hp than same lvl elite lancers (tested on lvls 17-20). I only assume their dmg scales like that too.

What I think They should do is to drop base lvl of EVERY enemy to 1 and scale them from there.

[TheJadrimian]

I feel that if bleed procs were only applicable to unshielded targets it would help a lot — it'd also be just plain logical. Also it'd be good if the Frontier Eviscerators on Earth were reined in and confined to the higher end of survival, defence etc. Between  the frontier Eviscerators and the Hellions raining explosive death from above, I feel really bad for any new players on Earth.

[H3dsh0t]

Evicerators also become a huge problem when you are doing invasions on the side of the Corpus. Its no wonder why everyone goes Grineer tbh. You farm for the Detron, plus you avoid the Evicerator/Napalm/Bombardier spam that the invasions provide. I have gone into an invasion room before with 5 Evicerators all raining death on the Corpus. The worst thing is that there are blades literally everywhere, so the chances of getting hit once are huge, and at higher level, once is all that needs to happen.

 

Blocking the projectiles sounds awesome, but also make it so that they can't make you bleed until they hit you when you have no shields at all.

[SnaleKing]

Btw as I was reading the OP and the discussion, I seriously think you guys need to get some tactic skill under your warframes. Recently I played a lot of invasion missions against grineer, because I just hate the fact they've taken over the starchart.

 

What I was watching:

* Most players, even on unlit corridors, tend to rush in without thinking, but as stated above, eviscerators often hiding around the corners.

* They are real cowards. They are running behind corners and stuff, and this is exploitable.

* Yes, their bleed proc seems a bit OP, but it IS avoidable with a bit thinking.

* Again, most of the players aren't using their long range weapons, they are going close quarters instead.

 

Most of you guys already played the new invasion teleport area, which ends up in a room and a long corridor on the grineer side. I've easily cleaned that room or corridor with Ember's fireball + Dread + Wraith twin vipers. Yes, there were times when I went down, mostly when I was trying to revive fools who run into the mobs.

 

So, get a weapon which have punch through effect to make sure it hits through stuff, and/or have an AOE effect, because they aren't that tough. And use your warframe abilities, for god's sake, that's why they are there.

 

+1, but I have a bit to add to this.

 

I think part of the problem is that the challenge isn't consistent: you can get away with rushing and ramboing (two activities I neither participate in nor endorse) just fine up to the SECOND you run into a grineer heavy around a corner and he groundpound-napalms or eviscerates you.

 

The fact is that warframe is advertised as a run-and-gun space ninja game, and as such most people play it like that: not to say they're right, but frontflipping over a heavy while whipping a throwing knife into the back of their neck, one must admit, is quite a bit more ninja than sitting behind a piece of cover 200 meters away and snapping headshots.

 

The method of gameplay you describe is far more effective and tactical than what the players who get gimped by evis bleed procs use: but is that the kind of gameplay warframe wants to require to win?

 

That's what the discussion of eviscerators is about. Currently, it forces players into a restricted playstyle: nerfing them would not make your methods worse, but it would make their methods effective as well.

 

We want to OPEN gameplay and build options, not close them off. Forcing players into certain builds, weapons, frames and tactics negates the variety DE has worked so hard to build.

 

I think the idea of no bleed procs until zero shields is good: currently, the other damage types have pretty weak procs (punc. is half damage for a bit, Impact is a short stagger) and I think Slash should have a proc of equivalent usefulness.

Edited February 10, 2014 by SnaleKing

[tmtke]

The method of gameplay you describe is far more effective and tactical than what the players who get gimped by evis bleed procs use: but is that the kind of gameplay warframe wants to require to win?

 

That's what the discussion of eviscerators is about. Currently, it forces players into a restricted playstyle: nerfing them would not make your methods worse, but it would make their methods effective as well.

 

We want to OPEN gameplay and build options, not close them off. Forcing players into certain builds, weapons, frames and tactics negates the variety DE has worked so hard to build.

 

I think the idea of no bleed procs until zero shields is good: currently, the other damage types have pretty weak procs (punc. is half damage for a bit, Impact is a short stagger) and I think Slash should have a proc of equivalent usefulness.

 

This is reasonable, while other two damage types aren't that dangerous.

 

But for the first part, I think the two playstyles can be mixed, because that's what I do most of the time. I really love to get into close quarters combat with trash mobs swinging around Hate with a slide + spin combo, or circling around a heavy to hit it with some gun, but when needed, I'm just aware of the different map parts, and don't rush them blindly.

[ThePresident777]

The method of gameplay you describe is far more effective and tactical than what the players who get gimped by evis bleed procs use: but is that the kind of gameplay warframe wants to require to win?

 

THIS!  There is an inconsistency in Warframes game mechanics.  It's advertised as one thing but doesn't automatically play as advertised.  The advertising is more compelling than the actual game mechanics.  Warframe is conflicted by the Stamina system and it's low sprint speeds.