Hixlysss Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) True, there is nothing to stop them from doing exactly that. It's a matter of carrying out their promises to the letter. I'm sure you and I both know how bad an idea that would be from a business perspective for them though. Aside from the obvious dire consequences for their attempts to upsell higher tiers of Prime Access with 'exclusives', public abuse of loopholes to screw over high paying customers is as bad a business plan as you can get. Not reneging on the promise of the primes being exclusive is a huge deal. Making public version have a particular name really isn't. Yeah, DE is kinda in a hole over the whole excal prime thing, which is why I want the founders to come together and help DE get out of that hole. They were smart with the Prime Access thing, the only things "exclusive" to that are the boosters (90 day boosters?! I still got like 13 days left on mine) and the prime extractors. But with how that is worded, DE can release another "Prime Access" pack and just swap out ember prime and the other items, leave in the boosters, the extractors, and the syandana. I'm kind of stuck in-between on this. On the one hand, Excalibur Prime, Lato Prime, and Skana Prime really aren't even that good, and so having a bunch of mediocre items released into the drop pool is just "eh okay whatever". On the other hand, despite them being rather average, it's a bit of a mark of exclusivity to help players say "Yeah I've been here since the start, and I helped get this thing going". Making them available to others kinda diminishes that, and would no doubt tick off quite a few people. Also the whole thing with DE saying it's never getting rereleased. I really doubt they're gonna budge on that, even if you do get a bunch of founders saying it's okay. You're bound to have folks who don't want them rereleased at all. This is why I keep mentioning "GIving the founders something else to show off." Sure those are the current Founder "Badges of honor" that are easily noticable, but we have forum titles and icons. So if founders got something else, like a Sashimono(I'm going to start pushing for this thing) with their tier emblem on it would be a nice big "Hey, I'm a founder!" Edited February 20, 2014 by Rikov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seox Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Yeah, DE is kinda in a hole over the whole excal prime thing, which is why I want the founders to come together and help DE get out of that hole. I feel like this is a completely contrived problem; How is offering a deal to buy an exclusive frame for a limited time putting themselves in a hole? The people who bought into it knew what they were buying and those that didn't knew what they weren't. Everyone who "played the game" "knew the rules" - If you want to make statements like that, you should explain how/why their communicating clearly has "put them in a hole" instead of just presuming it's correct, as that's a large part of the premise of your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hixlysss Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 I feel like this is a completely contrived problem; How is offering a deal to buy an exclusive frame for a limited time putting themselves in a hole? The people who bought into it knew what they were buying and those that didn't knew what they weren't. Everyone who "played the game" "knew the rules" - If you want to make statements like that, you should explain how/why their communicating clearly has "put them in a hole" instead of just presuming it's correct, as that's a large part of the premise of your argument. Simply put the founder primes are exclusive to founders and they are weapons/warframe to be used in a match to kill enemies. DE is "in a hole" because if they buff the lato/skana prime people without them will whine that founders have OP weapons, even if they aren't OP. Primes as a whole have this problem of "They are just formaed reskins" and the dev's can't change the primes with out one side getting uppity. If the devs buff primes, all of the primes, people complain because excal prime is now actually useful and they can't have it, thus big storm. If they buff primes and not excal prime, founders complain because their excal prime is useless compared to other prime warframes. See where this is going? DE gets put under fire no matter what they do and they honestly need to do something, they are half treating the primes like skins, half like something special. Lore wise the primes are special, but gameplay wise they are...skins and nothing else unlike their weapon counterparts. Prime warframes are, at this point in time, nothing special gameplay wise. Fantastic for cosmetic reasons, and no reason to use them over my normal warframe, Unlike the prime weapons. Every prime weapon is a superior version of it's normal counterpart, so the question is ask "Why aren't the prime warframes better than their counterparts?" Because one of them is locked up and could cause a storm of rage should it be touched because...well people will be people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seox Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) Simply put the founder primes are exclusive to founders and they are weapons/warframe to be used in a match to kill enemies. DE is "in a hole" because if they buff the lato/skana prime people without them will whine that founders have OP weapons, even if they aren't OP. Primes as a whole have this problem of "They are just formaed reskins" and the dev's can't change the primes with out one side getting uppity. This is a false dichotomy - why do they have to buff the weapons to the point that they're considered OP and cause an uproar? I'm not convinced that the community as a whole will just "consider them OP" even if they aren't. That sounds like a catch-all way to assert that your argument will still apply even if it doesn't look like it will. Edited February 20, 2014 by Seox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybernetix Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 All it would take is some kind of cosmetic tweaking. Polish the existing prime variants up to something more spectacular than we've ever seen before and give them a new status above prime gear. That way we can keep our exclusives without presenting players that are attempting to collect the primes with an impassable barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo2sonic Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 This thread is definitely a sight to behold, Usually founders are Hyper defensive and whiny when people so much as hint at Founders Gear, but to see a Grandmaster actively want to let others have the Trio of Primes, and then Founders of various ranks supporting it. Definitely strange, Startling almost. but also very strange what is suggested for "compensation". i like the skin suggestion, and removing the mastery points, but am not even sure if it was suggested by a founder in the first place. respect to those founders not wanting another exclusive for the existant meaningless exclusives (those mastery points never last long to let founders reach the next mastery level before others can). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hixlysss Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 This is a false dichotomy - why do they have to buff the weapons to the point that they're considered OP and cause an uproar? I'm not convinced that the community as a whole will just "consider them OP" even if they aren't. That sounds like a catch-all way to assert that your argument will still apply even if it doesn't look like it will. Look at the people who rant and raved about the Brakk being OP and psuedo exclusive, the strun wraith before that, the same thing applies to the founder primes. All it would take is some kind of cosmetic tweaking. Polish the existing prime variants up to something more spectacular than we've ever seen before and give them a new status above prime gear. That way we can keep our exclusives without presenting players that are attempting to collect the primes with an impassable barrier. Not sure I understand what your saying...Are you suggesting a new tier above prime, or taking excal prime, changing the appearance and name, and then buffing it and the rest of the primes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superkoco Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 IMO playable exclusives in a FTP model are bad. In game currency lose his value when you can´t buy all in-game content with it, DE should release all playable exclusive at some point(1 year maybe), and replace it with awesome exclusive cosmetics(skins, scarfs, helmets, etc) for founders and CB players. Its a DE decission, and for now they don´t want to release it. The only think i´ll feel really bad is if DE only release some exclusive and no others. Do it with ALL, or keep all exclusive (founder, CB, events). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kill3r_furby Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Because it's selfish for me to deny myself the ability to get exclusives I missed out on. No, it be selfish of you if you were to be against it because you want to have bragging rights that you have this gear and others will never be able to get it. THAT'S what #3 means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlightyBroad Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 What if instead of ExcaliburP, we got to run around as Hayden Tenno? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hixlysss Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 IMO playable exclusives in a FTP model are bad. In game currency lose his value when you can´t buy all in-game content with it, DE should release all playable exclusive at some point(1 year maybe), and replace it with awesome exclusive cosmetics(skins, scarfs, helmets, etc) for founders and CB players. Its a DE decission, and for now they don´t want to release it. The only think i´ll feel really bad is if DE only release some exclusive and no others. Do it with ALL, or keep all exclusive (founder, CB, events). You get the idea, playable exclusives are always...weird. And as it stands the only playable exclusives that are said by DE to be "Never again released" are the founder primes. The wraiths and vandals were confirmed to come back around in future events due to being in "The vault!" And yeah, it is DE's decission, all I can hope is persuade/convince that the founders would not mind trading their exclusive primes for something else. What if instead of ExcaliburP, we got to run around as Hayden Tenno? Oh~ Now that is an interesting idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katotsu Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Read through this and this caught my eye: By stating that "market weapons are exclusive to those who buy and build them" is just arguing semantics because everyone can build or buy it at any time, so it's not really exclusive in this context. Where's my Machete then? Wasn't that in the Market? Weapons have disappeared because of newer, better weapons. Right now you're saying "Keep my Excal and Skana Prime exclusive so that NO ONE EVER USES THEM AGAIN." And the REAL problem isn't even the Skana and Lato, its Excalibur Prime. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Excal Prime the lowest tier of all 3 of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silentmage Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 in my opinion a exclusive warframe should be exclusive. Not a shiny Excalibur. A real exclusive warframe should be made for them, And in time if they decide to release it to the public have another exclusive warframe (that others cant get until/if they decide to repeat the cycle) Given to them for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hixlysss Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) in my opinion a exclusive warframe should be exclusive. Not a shiny Excalibur. A real exclusive warframe should be made for them, And in time if they decide to release it to the public have another exclusive warframe (that others cant get until/if they decide to repeat the cycle) Given to them for free. And again we would run into the same problem. Nothing playable should be exclusive, cosmetics are the only thing that should be exclusive. But interesting idea. Imagine a warframe that was event exclusive? You can only get it if you participate in certain event types. Edited February 21, 2014 by Rikov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin_Ein Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 You've already heard from the Dev's. They've already stated on the past livestreams, they're not releasing them like a hundred times. You said give founders something else? Why? So people can whine about not having that too? Just let it go. We're not "Elitest arseholes" because we want to keep our exclusive prime gear. Dont even come in here name calling us and throwing crap like that around. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with wanting to keep something exclusive that was presented to us as such. It was one of the main selling points of the whole package. So stop trying to make us feel bad for wanting to keep our stuff exclusive items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybernetix Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Not sure I understand what your saying...Are you suggesting a new tier above prime, or taking excal prime, changing the appearance and name, and then buffing it and the rest of the primes? What i'm suggesting is that our founders gear be made into something other than prime gear that's superior from a lore and cosmetic perspective but identical in terms of stats. That way we're not holding back a piece of the prime collection from the public (nor is power imbalance an issue) but we still have our own shiny toys that are in a set of their own and won't make people feel that they're always going to have an incomplete set of primes. Alternatively, give founders some kind of super fancy set of skins for the prime gear and release the weapons/frame to the public. I'm talking skins that make people go 'WHAT THE...' the first time that they see them. Edited February 21, 2014 by Cybernetix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anunymau5 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 You've already heard from the Dev's. They've already stated on the past livestreams, they're not releasing them like a hundred times. You said give founders something else? Why? So people can whine about not having that too? Just let it go. We're not "Elitest arseholes" because we want to keep our exclusive prime gear. Dont even come in here name calling us and throwing crap like that around. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with wanting to keep something exclusive that was presented to us as such. It was one of the main selling points of the whole package. So stop trying to make us feel bad for wanting to keep our stuff exclusive items. Except there are players from the start who couldn't afford founders. I know it's not my place seeing as I'm not a founder but I've been playing the game since 2 days after it went open beta (give or take). Anyways I couldn't afford founders at the time, hell I could barely afford the laptop I was playing it on. I had to pay for University which meant little to no free cash! I would be fine if they brought it back until the game was finished then I could buy it and support the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hixlysss Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 You've already heard from the Dev's. They've already stated on the past livestreams, they're not releasing them like a hundred times. You said give founders something else? Why? So people can whine about not having that too? Just let it go. We're not "Elitest arseholes" because we want to keep our exclusive prime gear. Dont even come in here name calling us and throwing crap like that around. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with wanting to keep something exclusive that was presented to us as such. It was one of the main selling points of the whole package. So stop trying to make us feel bad for wanting to keep our stuff exclusive items. I have run across people who come across as "Elitest arsehole" and are founders, argueing points for no reason other than to argue a point because they are all hyped up on something. I'm not saying all founders are like this, clearly they aren't from the amount of founders who have come in here supporting this idea. How ever the problem still stands with the founder primes being lack luster compared to other weaponry, compared to other primes even, and there is the issue of the prime warframes. But argueing these stay exclusive, just for the sake of them being exclusive, is silly. If they were the only primes in the game, Sure I would agree, if they were skins I would agree, because they are playable items which can be used in a match I can not and will not agree. And because you're pulling the "Main selling points of the whole package" I'm going to say the founder primes are NOT worth the money as they stand. They simply aren't. I have so many weapons now that are so vastly superior that my lovely weapons I got for 250$ are not worth the money anymore and should be buffed, I want my moneys worth. Excalibur prime lost his novelty once they introduced frost prime, frost prime and excalibur lost their neat "It comes with extra polarity slots!" once they introduced forma. So unless a dev comes in here and tells us why they haven't made the prime warframes "better" i'm going to just go off the assumption, based on what i've seen in other games and even here, the dev's have not made any changes to the primes because the exclusivity of excal prime. As soon as Excal Prime gets buffed to be "useful" the complaints will flood in, the flames will burn bright. But if all this is because Excal is exclusive to the founders packs, just re-release the founder packs. At the very least the new PS4 players should have the chance to become founders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vargras Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Look at the people who rant and raved about the Brakk being OP and psuedo exclusive, the strun wraith before that, the same thing applies to the founder primes. The Founder Primes aren't even that good. They're outclassed by plenty of non-Prime items. People only want them because they're exclusive. Classic case of "I don't have it and can't have it, so I want it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hixlysss Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 What i'm suggesting is that our founders gear be made into something other than prime gear that's superior from a lore and cosmetic perspective but identical in terms of stats. That way we're not holding back a piece of the prime collection from the public (nor is power imbalance an issue) but we still have our own shiny toys that are in a set of their own and won't make people feel that they're always going to have an incomplete set of primes. Alternatively, give founders some kind of super fancy set of skins for the prime gear and release the weapons/frame to the public. I'm talking skins that make people go 'WHAT THE...' the first time that they see them. Eh, the issue with that is the legal problem, "Excalibur Prime" as well as the "Lato Prime" and "Skana Prime" are tied to the founders packs. The dev's would literally have to make them non exclusive to get around that. But I like where you were going with your idea, I was more or less trying to get us some free perm boosters, the Dev's have been awesome and given us enough. *Proudly wears my founders shirt.* Except there are players from the start who couldn't afford founders. I know it's not my place seeing as I'm not a founder but I've been playing the game since 2 days after it went open beta (give or take). Anyways I couldn't afford founders at the time, hell I could barely afford the laptop I was playing it on. I had to pay for University which meant little to no free cash! I would be fine if they brought it back until the game was finished then I could buy it and support the company. This right here. And before the "Life isn't fair" crap kicks off, please, this is something that can be controlled, this CAN be made fair and there is no reason it should not. The Founder Primes aren't even that good. They're outclassed by plenty of non-Prime items. People only want them because they're exclusive. Classic case of "I don't have it and can't have it, so I want it". Again, THIS! All I'm trying to do is get the founders to TRADE their exclusives for another exclusive. You can still have your shiny "Hahahaha, I have this and you never will!" without it being some crappy gun or sword that is kicked in the teeth and curb stomped by 80% of the other weapons of it's type. I mean seriously people, these things aren't even GOOD which is why playable exclusives are never a good idea, the dev's can't make them good because those that don't have them would complain and raise hell. So why can't we trade these things, which a few founders have already came in here saying they don't even use them anymore, for something purely cosmetic as it seems that is all these are except they suck worse than a purely cosmetic item. At least a skin for my akvasto doesn't mean my akvasto suck more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seox Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) I mean seriously people, these things aren't even GOOD which is why playable exclusives are never a good idea, the dev's can't make them good because those that don't have them would complain and raise hell. So why can't we trade these things, which a few founders have already came in here saying they don't even use them anymore, for something purely cosmetic as it seems that is all these are except they suck worse than a purely cosmetic item. At least a skin for my akvasto doesn't mean my akvasto suck more. So founder's gear gets buffed. Problem solved. Cut the whole "drop the exclusiveness" entirely. To which you'll retort that "people will unanimously agree that if the weapons aren't < 2% effective, they're OP and it's p2w." Which is a false dichotomy, but I digress. Let's say you get your wish and 100% of the founders agree to "trade" their items for other exclusive items. If those items aren't effective, we're back at square one. If they are, apparently the entire community will lose their minds and ragequit the game because P2w. Why is this true in the initial case, but not an eventuality of the case you want to see? "It should be cosmetic" - You're a bit late to suggest that. We got what we paid for. Edited February 21, 2014 by Seox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hixlysss Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 So founder's gear gets buffed. Problem solved. Cut the whole "drop the exclusiveness" entirely. To which you'll retort that "people will unanimously agree that if the weapons aren't < 2% effective, they're OP and it's p2w." Which is a false dichotomy, but I digress. Let's say you get your wish and 100% of the founders agree to "trade" their items for other exclusive items. If those items aren't effective, we're back at square one. If they are, apparently the entire community will lose their minds and ragequit the game because P2w. Why is this true in the initial case, but not an eventuality of the case you want to see? "It should be cosmetic" - You're a bit late to suggest that. We got what we paid for. No where did I suggest that we should get other founder items that were playable, infact I am very against the idea. Nothing that I take into a fight should be as exclusive as the founder primes. At least the wraith and vandal weapons can come back again, but the founder primes are locked away from everyone except founders. While I love the idea of having something exclusive, I hate the idea that it's some gun that gets +10 damage and then gets so out classed by something else later on that it's useless. Simply put, the founder primes aren't worth it at this point. I should be able to trade them for something else, and I mean that seriously. DE has come around and retired weapons, gorgon, machete, ether daggers, ect, because they were rendered USELESS by other weapons. But, it was also said they could return once they were buffed/reworked to be better. Obviously I'd love for my prime gear to be made useful again but DE can't without fear of the community coming out and burning them for "HURRDURR WARFARM IS P2W CAUSE FOUNDERS!" It's all going to boil down to if DE is willing to do a poll about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seox Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 No where did I suggest that we should get other founder items that were playable, infact I am very against the idea. Nothing that I take into a fight should be as exclusive as the founder primes. At least the wraith and vandal weapons can come back again, but the founder primes are locked away from everyone except founders. While I love the idea of having something exclusive, I hate the idea that it's some gun that gets +10 damage and then gets so out classed by something else later on that it's useless. Simply put, the founder primes aren't worth it at this point. I should be able to trade them for something else, and I mean that seriously. DE has come around and retired weapons, gorgon, machete, ether daggers, ect, because they were rendered USELESS by other weapons. But, it was also said they could return once they were buffed/reworked to be better. Obviously I'd love for my prime gear to be made useful again but DE can't without fear of the community coming out and burning them for "HURRDURR WARFARM IS P2W CAUSE FOUNDERS!" It's all going to boil down to if DE is willing to do a poll about this. Unfortunately, it's not up to "the majority". As other users have mentioned, if even a single founder isn't ok with this, it's going to ruin them from a PR standpoint, and that's if they don't take legal heat from it. I've got a lot of faith in them and I'm sure they wouldn't even entertain this, though. If you think the founder's primes - prime versions of the starter weapons - aren't up to par with mastery rank 6 weapons that require clan research, then I think you might just need to reevaluate what you feel should warrant power in game and not ask the entire system to kneel to your personal opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hixlysss Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Unfortunately, it's not up to "the majority". As other users have mentioned, if even a single founder isn't ok with this, it's going to ruin them from a PR standpoint, and that's if they don't take legal heat from it. I've got a lot of faith in them and I'm sure they wouldn't even entertain this, though. If you think the founder's primes - prime versions of the starter weapons - aren't up to par with mastery rank 6 weapons that require clan research, then I think you might just need to reevaluate what you feel should warrant power in game and not ask the entire system to kneel to your personal opinions. To counter your PR thing, i've seen other companies pull this crap and suffer nothing at all for it. One example being Perfect World Entertainment. They did a "One time only! Get it now while it lasts!" For one of their games, "Exclusive to this pack!" stuff, which was then released to the public. So your PR thing is shot, specially if it's us, the people they gave the exclusive items too, asking for them to make it non exclusive anymore. If they do face any PR problems, the founders, the majority, who voted yes for them being non exclusive become the scape goat. DE can literally say "Sorry, we were following what the community wanted, they wanted this, here is the poll." Simple as that. It's not "clan tech weapons that are mastery rank 6" it's the friggin' vasto. The effin' vasto kicks the ever loving teeth in on the Lato prime. All i'm saying if these are going to be exclusive weapons, they need to feel it. If founder primes are going to be exclusive, if they are going to be locked up as they are and made to have stats that affect gameplay, they damn well better be some of the best items in the game. If not, release them to the public, give us some shiny skins instead, kay? Edit: Woo! 1000th post~ Edited February 21, 2014 by Rikov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezzik Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) There's no way DE is going to take legal heat for this. Every EULA has God only knows how many clauses that basically say the company can do what it likes. There's limits, sure, but those limits are on the level of "can't trick the customer into handing over their firstborn." Or rather, someone could try suing DE over it, but they wouldn't stand a chance. Edited February 21, 2014 by Yezzik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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