Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

And is the shockwave Radial or Conical

 

why not both?

two different modes ala Quiver.

[Azamagon]

Sounds like a better idea for an augment, honestly. As it is now, it would tack way too much onto one ability.

 

The main idea of that is to make her less reliant on her Melee weapon. Meleeing AND letting the snake attack is still better than just relying on the snake for energypopping, but if you go into, say, a sortie that requires something without a melee, you can still pop spores for the sake of getting energy despite being meleeless. I just REALLY don't like when a kit has powers that cannot be interacted with AT ALL unless you also carry a weapon.

 

Another one of those powers would be Banshee's Sonar. It REQUIRES her to carry a ranged weapon to be of any use for herself. So, something I'd love to see, is to also add to Sonic Boom (on top of making it freely aimable for this to work) a single-target, hitscan soundbeam shot where you aim (think something akin to Opticor). That way, she can snipe Sonar weakspots even without using any weapon at all. Weapons might still be BETTER for Sonar, but now she can at least do something with Sonar when going pure melee, or using AoE weapons etc, for example.

 

Pretty much: One should be able to go "power alone" (as a contrast to sword alone) and still be able to utilize and interact with the entire kit to a decent extent.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Azamagon

[Archwizard]

The main idea of that is to make her less reliant on her Melee weapon.

 

Pretty much: One should be able to go "power alone" (as a contrast to sword alone) and still be able to utilize and interact with the entire kit to a decent extent.

 

Oh I know, but as far as spreading Toxin procs you have Molt, and as far as an effect without a melee weapon, there is the call for base mitigation on Toxic Lash. You can accomplish all of those goals without one as written, which just makes the whip an excess.

 

Another one of those powers would be Banshee's Sonar. It REQUIRES her to carry a ranged weapon to be of any use for herself. So, something I'd love to see, is to also add to Sonic Boom (on top of making it freely aimable for this to work) a single-target, hitscan soundbeam shot where you aim (think something akin to Opticor). That way, she can snipe Sonar weakspots even without using any weapon at all. Weapons might still be BETTER for Sonar, but now she can at least do something with Sonar when going pure melee, or using AoE weapons etc, for example.

 

An older suggestion I heard that was something along that line, was for Soundquake to also target the weakspots on Sonar. Worth discussing.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

An older suggestion I heard that was something along that line, was for Soundquake to also target the weakspots on Sonar. Worth discussing.

you can accomplish using Sonar with Soundquake or without a Gun though:

 

you just need to cast it kind've a lot to do so, since the locations are random.

Banshee can AoE Blast like other Warframes if you cast Sonar several times, and then use Soundquake.

 

similarly, if you cast Sonar several times, and then go into Melee, you're probably going to hit Sonar Points. every time? nah. but a pretty good chance to hit some.

[Azamagon]

Oh I know, but as far as spreading Toxin procs you have Molt, and as far as an effect without a melee weapon, there is the call for base mitigation on Toxic Lash. You can accomplish all of those goals without one as written, which just makes the whip an excess.

 

 

An older suggestion I heard that was something along that line, was for Soundquake to also target the weakspots on Sonar. Worth discussing.

True, she can still go "power alone", but you can't get the energyreplenishment from Toxic Lash without a melee, that's the main concern I had.

 

Yeah, but that is a very forced synergy. Forced synergies (while next to necessary or even logical in some cases) really ought to be kept at a minimum level, as they hint at a badly designed kit otherwise (synergy-wise at least). At least imo, as it gives that weird feeling of "1+1=3".

 

Saryn's revamp, for example, didn't need as many as she got (Toxin and Viral procs to randomly empower Miasma. Miasma causes Molt for some random reason. Meleeing while Toxic Lash is active also grants energy when you pop Spores, but all the forced stuff from Toxic Lash I can agreed with, since meleeing needs all the incentive it can get)

As a contrast, you have Loki. All powers just do what they do, and they just happen to synergize really well, due to being a well designed kit from the get-go. All Warframes should be more like that.

 

you can accomplish using Sonar with Soundquake or without a Gun though:

 

you just need to cast it kind've a lot to do so, since the locations are random.

Banshee can AoE Blast like other Warframes if you cast Sonar several times, and then use Soundquake.

 

similarly, if you cast Sonar several times, and then go into Melee, you're probably going to hit Sonar Points. every time? nah. but a pretty good chance to hit some.

 

But is that really practical? The kit should flow well together as a baseline, not by forcing it with brute multicasting.

[taiiat]

Decoy and Switch Teleport are the only Abilities that really 'synergize'. you can make a weaker but still existent suggestion of Decoy and Invisibility.

Invisbility and Switch Teleport... don't really have much of anything in common. only ever so slightly.

however Invisibility and Radial Disarm have nothing in common with each other whatsoever.

 

 

 

i will strongly note that the Energy Gain from Toxic Lash and Spores is incredible. Saryn is the opposite of every other Warframe. as Enemy Levels go UP, Saryn's Energy Stability goes UP.

this is amazing and i love it. 

 

.....i love Poison.

 

not by forcing it with brute multicasting.

that's balanced though.

if it was automatic, then Banshee would not only do incredibly well with Weapons, but would also deal the second most Melee Damage, deal the most AoE Blast Damage....

 

no thanks.

it's quite balanced as it is.

there's setup time to using Sound Quake as an AoE Blast.

there's setup time to swinging through a crowd at higher Damage than a gun.

and the primary purpose for Guns, you have to aim at the very center of the Sonar Dot (which i think is silly tbh and would like the visual size to be less huge or the actual size to be larger) to get the bonus Damage. requiring aim is a type of setup time.

Edited February 1, 2016 by taiiat

[Azamagon]

Decoy and Switch Teleport are the only Abilities that really 'synergize'. you can make a weaker but still existent suggestion of Decoy and Invisibility.

Invisbility and Switch Teleport... don't really have much of anything in common. only ever so slightly.

however Invisibility and Radial Disarm have nothing in common with each other whatsoever.

 

 

 

i will strongly note that the Energy Gain from Toxic Lash and Spores is incredible. Saryn is the opposite of every other Warframe. as Enemy Levels go UP, Saryn's Energy Stability goes UP.

this is amazing and i love it. 

 

.....i love Poison.

 

that's balanced though.

if it was automatic, then Banshee would not only do incredibly well with Weapons, but would also deal the second most Melee Damage, deal the most AoE Blast Damage....

 

no thanks.

it's quite balanced as it is.

there's setup time to using Sound Quake as an AoE Blast.

there's setup time to swinging through a crowd at higher Damage than a gun.

and the primary purpose for Guns, you have to aim at the very center of the Sonar Dot (which i think is silly tbh and would like the visual size to be less huge or the actual size to be larger) to get the bonus Damage. requiring aim is a type of setup time.

Loki is far more synergized than that:

 

Decoy = Decoy has a lot of aggro and with Invis, you can make sure Decoy takes the aggro from you. With Switch, well the synergy is obvious. Disarming makes enemies having to run up to the Decoy, stacking them all in a nice spot (which is good for so many reasons, like explosives etc)

 

Invis = Well, with Switch you can do switches very safely. Invis gives you melee bonuses and with Disarm it makes sure you can run up to enemies without getting hit by stray shots (and couple it with Decoy's clustering effects for really easy pickings)

 

Switch = It and Disarm... yeah, maybe not so much, but I really think the listed synergies are enough. It works well with Irradiating Disarm though, for placing enemies in rough spots etc. Irradiating Disarm shouldn't have existed though, Switch should've caused enemies to be Radiationprocced by default instead. Then Switch + Disarm could see some evil, brutal results :P

 

So yeah, far more synergy than you think!

 

----

 

As for Saryn, yeah, the forced synergy with the energy from popping spores with Toxic Lash, that's a good one. Which is why I agreed with it (and also suggest the snake thing :P)

 

----

 

Banshee, well, I don't mean that ALL abilities need to synergize, but at least one or two should (like my suggested Sonic Boom's beam and Sonar). I am not promoting something "automatic" with, say, Sonar and Soundquake. If I'd suggest tweaks for her it'd be more along the lines of these:

 

Sonic Boom - Onehanded, has the "opticor" soundbeam added, can deflect projectiles (for flavour)

Sonar - Could work like an "aura" (pinging like a Sonar), somehow.

Silence - SILENCES allies, on top of deafening enemies. Can be recast to deactivate it (to make range/duration less of a hassle to mod for it)

Soundquake - Rather than rooting Banshee in place, she instead places a proximity / recast-triggered soundquake mine at her feet. Still drains energy over time while triggered, but should have a max duration to reduce the potential cheesiness (and probably a range-reduction?).

 

With that:

Soundquake gives her constant CC, so she can shoot Sonic Boom beams or with her Silenced weapons on Sonar'd enemies. Stuff like that. The abilities synergize to certain decent extents, without being forced or anything.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Azamagon

[BETAOPTICS]

Oberon suggestions sound interesting but you know what I was disappointed about his release? Like you said, he was supposed to give allies protection in the form of support and I remember initially imagining some kind of true protection in battle for allies and self. My conception of a Paladin has always been this mix of support/offence/tanky whereby a Paladin's arsenal was often about healing, buffing, debuffing and causing/soaking damage. Since there is not much to dispel, I would love to have some protective buffs like Oberon having the ability to temporarily grant all allies a protective energy shield bubble kind of thing or something along those lines.

This sort of suggestion would not only suit Paladin/Oberon theme but it would also make a quite heavy statement of: " I am not only going to be there in the front lines supporting everyone, but I am bringing my friends with me there as well. " - and that sort of idea sounds way cool in my opinion. Soon, Oberon would able to morph the battlefield with his powerful buffs in such a way that his team could charge head on to the battlefield and for as long as Oberon would be alive, so would his allies have the ability to keep staying in the front fields.

Edited February 2, 2016 by BETAOPTICS

[BeardyKyle]

Oberon is one of the most interesting frames imo. Paladin by definition, faery king by lore, since he came out I think of him as the light version of nekros.

Hg would be better if enemies who enter also become confused and have increased drop rates, would also be good for those who like using hg at chokepoints.

Renewal should be changed to an overshield, that does what it does now but also provides a small chance to completely ignore incoming damage, this is increased while on HG. Could have an augment that causes orbs to revive allies instead of just slowing the timer.

Reckoning dropping health orbs is useless for a frame that can already heal, unless he's given a passive that Makes picking up health orbs uniquely Beneficial.

Otherwise reckoning should radiate enemies on slam, the radiation feeds into Oberon increasing his armor/damage for a period..this is in addition to what it already does minus health orb drops which should be removed

[Archwizard]

Since there is not much to dispel, I would love to have some protective buffs like Oberon having the ability to temporarily grant all allies a protective energy shield bubble kind of thing or something along those lines.

 

That's the point of Reckoning's replacement in the OP. I wanted him to provide a form of protection that didn't just rip off Iron Skin or Snow Globe for the nth time, and protection through CC (which according to many, he sorely needs) seemed apt.

 

Hg would be better if enemies who enter also [...] have increased drop rates, 

 

No.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Archwizard

[TheGrimCorsair]

No.

Easy there, Archie, they're not a balrog. No need to be so forceful.

Edited February 2, 2016 by TheGrimCorsair

[Odai]

I would give Hydroid a skill that summons a Water tornado / Waterspout with piranha's in it, which travels from enemy to enemy maybe damaging them till death and then it moves on or it ragdolls them and takes the enemys with it to the next while the piranha's feed on them ^^

[BeardyKyle]

That's the point of Reckoning's replacement in the OP. I wanted him to provide a form of protection that didn't just rip off Iron Skin or Snow Globe for the nth time, and protection through CC (which according to many, he sorely needs) seemed apt.

No.

Lol calm down sunshine, just a thought. I like idea of divine intervention but I think it would be better if integrated with renewal so that the healing energy that looks like an over shield actually works that way and does reflective rad dmg as u suggest. I wouldn't change it to an radial aura tho, having foresight to cast renewal and timing it well is part of obi skill curve. Slowed revive counter already exists if you mess up the timing so u aren't punished too much, an over shield mechanic would be nice as a preventative measure, seeing as alot of the time obi is the one needing a heal and not the rest of your teammates it would be nice to give allies a buff if they don't need a heal.

Smite is already one of the best 1s in the game imo. Orbs are useful if a heavy unit isn't killed by the initial hit and there aren't any other enemies around. Scaling off of melee mods would be interesting tho.

I haven't seen any suggestions for reckoning that suit oberon and are worthy of being called an ultimate

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Mind control actually needs to be very specific. If there are a group of enemies coming towards me, and I want the fire eximus that is in the back of the group, sympathetic Google aiming "I'm going to suggest the nearest thing I thought you wanted" isn't going to help. Sorry for ranting.

[Archwizard]

Lol calm down sunshine, just a thought. I like idea of divine intervention but I think it would be better if integrated with renewal so that the healing energy that looks like an over shield actually works that way and does reflective rad dmg as u suggest. I wouldn't change it to an radial aura tho, having foresight to cast renewal and timing it well is part of obi skill curve. Slowed revive counter already exists if you mess up the timing so u aren't punished too much, an over shield mechanic would be nice as a preventative measure, seeing as alot of the time obi is the one needing a heal and not the rest of your teammates it would be nice to give allies a buff if they don't need a heal.

 

It's like I said in the OP, trying to time the ability cast really isn't rewarding enough to justify the high skill ceiling required to maximize it. You have to time Renewal such that you can preempt damage from a distance, affected by travel time (during which you're still spending energy per-target regardless of actual healing being dealt), so that your target receives the healing both after they've received damage (because the effect fades instantly if the target reaches health cap) - preventing precasting, flying in the face of most HoT effects - and before the damage is fatal (because the effect does nothing if they're downed when it reaches them). Adding to that, the "slowed revive counter" has a more limited window of opportunity as you upgrade it due to the inverted Duration scaling further reducing its hard cap.

It is a nightmare concoction with the worst attributes of a HoT and instant heal, and none of the real benefits, designed only so you're encouraged to stay close to the group.

 

I wanted to avoid having Oby be tied to Shielding in any way, since I feel granting Overshields sort of cheapens the armor buff and healing benefit (and Trinity/Equinox/Mag/Volt can restore shields anyway). His kit, as written, is around slowing damage to health at a rate he can recover it faster anyway, which plays nicely into Rage builds.

 

As far as "buffing allies if they don't need a heal", as he is written, he can increase their armor, purge their debuffs, grant them the ability to inflict Blind, has an augment to increase their damage, and takes incoming damage unto himself to justify the self-healing. I think he'd be good, if his healing didn't have the incredibly low threshold on duration it does now.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

I would give Hydroid a skill that summons a Water tornado / Waterspout with piranha's in it, which travels from enemy to enemy maybe damaging them till death and then it moves on or it ragdolls them and takes the enemys with it to the next while the piranha's feed on them ^^

 

So literally Tornado. But with pirahnas.

[Volinus7]

IMO

Oberon needs

Area denial (give 10 seconds damage absorb time in area) for his carpet [basically a mass iron skin]

Better healing animation (apply faster and less backswing)

Healing wont end at full health

Punch through and rad proc on 1 projectiles

Reckoning blinds all (primary target included)(15secs minimum at default)

Enemies rekted by 4 will be forced to re-targeting

May be make carpet an ult and move reckoning to 2.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Volinus7

[BeardyKyle]

It's like I said in the OP, trying to time the ability cast really isn't rewarding enough to justify the high skill ceiling required to maximize it. You have to time Renewal such that you can preempt damage from a distance, affected by travel time (during which you're still spending energy per-target regardless of actual healing being dealt), so that your target receives the healing both after they've received damage (because the effect fades instantly if the target reaches health cap) - preventing precasting, flying in the face of most HoT effects - and before the damage is fatal (because the effect does nothing if they're downed when it reaches them). Adding to that, the "slowed revive counter" has a more limited window of opportunity as you upgrade it due to the inverted Duration scaling further reducing its hard cap.

It is a nightmare concoction with the worst attributes of a HoT and instant heal, and none of the real benefits, designed only so you're encouraged to stay close to the group.

I wanted to avoid having Oby be tied to Shielding in any way, since I feel granting Overshields sort of cheapens the armor buff and healing benefit (and Trinity/Equinox/Mag/Volt can restore shields anyway). His kit, as written, is around slowing damage to health at a rate he can recover it faster anyway, which plays nicely into Rage builds.

As far as "buffing allies if they don't need a heal", as he is written, he can increase their armor, purge their debuffs, grant them the ability to inflict Blind, has an augment to increase their damage, and takes incoming damage unto himself to justify the self-healing. I think he'd be good, if his healing didn't have the incredibly low threshold on duration it does now.

I agree duration on him is weird especially with hg, but high strength heals most frames to full in a short time and removes procs at health cap. I say he needs some sort of overshield because he's too squishy, stat boost would be nice but then hg armor buff still doesn't benefit the majority of frames enough.

Maybe a shared fixed armor buff per target on renewal. Maybe convert a percent of damage to energy. Maybe remove duration and have an effect where status procs are absorbed and turned into buffs, similar to chromas energy color effects, use full but situational...really just spit balling here but u get the point.

[BETAOPTICS]

 

 

 

That's the point of Reckoning's replacement in the OP. I wanted him to provide a form of protection that didn't just rip off Iron Skin or Snow Globe for the nth time, and protection through CC (which according to many, he sorely needs) seemed apt.

 

 

No.

 

What I was thinking would be a kind of mini-nullifier bubble that would have a hit count (not health) with something like 6-10 hits protection and then a timed damage resistance buff that would decrease over time for a 4 second period or so. It would be awesome to see this protective bubble in a fight and get this semi-quasi protection that would not be totally a snowglobe or Iron armor but it would be a team thing.

[Archwizard]

What I was thinking would be a kind of mini-nullifier bubble that would have a hit count (not health) with something like 6-10 hits protection and then a timed damage resistance buff that would decrease over time for a 4 second period or so. It would be awesome to see this protective bubble in a fight and get this semi-quasi protection that would not be totally a snowglobe or Iron armor but it would be a team thing.

 

Thought about that...

 

What I'm really tempted with is for Oberon to just get a Nullifier bubble, although A) we have enough abilities with the Snow Globe-style health absorption, B) Warding Halo in particular seems to affect allies within a limited radius, and C) the rewrite of Renewal already has it as an aura following Oberon, which just means the two wouldn't have a lot of reason not to be rolled into one effect (other than being a weird combo altogether).

 

The only difference with having it based off of hit count, is that numbers on that vary strongly between factions. You have Corpus who use beam and projectile weapons, you have the Grineer who use full-automatics and heavy burst fire, you have Infested who don't bother with firearms at all. If you have it absorb a set number of hits rather than health, then a crowd of enemies will tear through it in a half second flat (or completely ignore it). If you have them copy Nullifier bubbles perfectly (such that it caps the amount of damage per frame), then you're only drawing out the usability by a few levels, since every tick will hit that cap.

 

Meanwhile if you want something that's a perfect defense in a radius that follows you, you have Turbulence.

 

What works with Divine Intervention, is that it creates the sort of damage staggering effect that would make Renewal worthwhile; as long as the damage isn't fatal, you'll be able to out-heal it.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Archwizard

[FelisImpurrator]

So literally Tornado. But with pirahnas.

I'm all out of helpful for the day, but...

 

SHARKNADO

[BETAOPTICS]

Thought about that...

 

 

The only difference with having it based off of hit count, is that numbers on that vary strongly between factions. You have Corpus who use beam and projectile weapons, you have the Grineer who use full-automatics and heavy burst fire, you have Infested who don't bother with firearms at all. If you have it absorb a set number of hits rather than health, then a crowd of enemies will tear through it in a half second flat (or completely ignore it). If you have them copy Nullifier bubbles perfectly (such that it caps the amount of damage per frame), then you're only drawing out the usability by a few levels, since every tick will hit that cap.

 

Meanwhile if you want something that's a perfect defense in a radius that follows you, you have Turbulence.

 

What works with Divine Intervention, is that it creates the sort of damage staggering effect that would make Renewal worthwhile; as long as the damage isn't fatal, you'll be able to out-heal it.

Fair enough. I was aware of the pitfalls of hit count abilities like that, as they do often struggle from similar effects than pure HP abilities did before DE decided to add that short invulnerability timer to guarantee a few second protection and then scale the ability partly based on absorbed damage.

I would not want to mimic other abilities because perhaps like you, I do believe that abilities should  be unique and not same abilities but with a twist. It is quite hard to imagine a solution that would fit in with this concept, even though it would be really nice and meaty idea if there would be some solution to this.

 

However, as in my anticipation to what your thought process would probably be, that is sort of why I added that perhaps after the bubble, it would add an added layer of decrease-over-time damage reduction component so that even though they bubble might not last for too long, the damage reduction would surely come in handy in any case. Float around this idea and see if you can make anything out of it, I like your ideas for Oberon as they are now too though.

Edited February 6, 2016 by BETAOPTICS

[Necrius]

I wish they just added Crusader/Templar frame - something along with Rhino-Oberon hybrid with big-&#! shield. Highly defense-oriented and tanky, with "exalted shield" ability.

[taiiat]

Chroma pretty well fits your role, IMO. Vex Armor is basically a defensive shield. super high durability, Et Cetera.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Chroma pretty well fits your role, IMO. Vex Armor is basically a defensive shield. super high durability, Et Cetera.

Eh, Chroma's more like a proper Berserker with the whole peak offense/defense coming from/feeding off of damage then exhausting as you reset the cycle.

 

That said, I'm not too keen on moving Oberon too much into super-tank territory. Maybe having Reckoning give a damage buff to himself and allies based on the number of enemies he scoops up with it would be a better fit as it's currently the only kind of buff he doesn't provide. It'd also encourage less spamming Reckoning (okay, maybe a little less) and more jumping in to save your allies in the first place.

 

Also maybe relax the weapon penalty for Oberon on Renewal to only affect primary and secondaries, while leaving melee unreduced. Throwing weapons (probably) aren't going to have him wiping out everything from the safety of his carpet, and more conventional melee weapons will still have him needing to take the risk of closing with enemies anyway.

<.<

It's early for me and this isn't really well thought out, just really don't want to see Oberon become solely a buff bot. There's also the issue of scaling where getting allies to take damage will have Oberon's 4 left in the dust in most groups as the game heavily favors outright stopping or avoiding damage in the first place (through CC and killing speed). Put another way, if a tank's job is to reduce incoming damage, something like Nyx or Nova make superb tanks through the big CC powers. Even if Oberon is tough enough to handle the incoming damage at higher levels, it's going to be a tall order to have the power affect enough enemies, even with the boosted aggro from Hallowed Ground, to attack him to make the ability worthwhile.