Remove Shotgun Fall-Off.

[Nemorac]

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this before, and this was before my time on Warframe, but there was a time when shotguns had NO damage falloff, like the OP is wanting.   The problem with that was Hek and Gorgon (not sure why on the Gorgon) were THE go to weapons for high-level stuff, kinda like how people say that Soma and the Brakk are like that now.

[notionphil]

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this before, and this was before my time on Warframe, but there was a time when shotguns had NO damage falloff, like the OP is wanting.   The problem with that was Hek and Gorgon (not sure why on the Gorgon) were THE go to weapons for high-level stuff, kinda like how people say that Soma and the Brakk are like that now.

 

The thing is, right now the top rifles like Soma and Boltor prime already do roughly same DPS as the top shotguns like Strun Wraith and Boar Prime.

 

So, even if falloff was totally removed, it would simply open up gameplay to new weapons.

[Brimir]

Quail and other soft bodied game =/= Hard-metal robotics with deflection shields, crewmen in armored suits, and grineer in armored exo suits.

 

That isn't a very solid argument.

 

Are you arguing that regular bullets from non-shotgun rifles should have fall-off too?

 

Or what's your point?

[taiiat]

i dont think they are trying to making sniper shotguns which sounds like what you talkeing about thats why hek has dmg fall off if it didnt it might out class snipers entirely 

i don't see how a Shotgun is going to outclass a Sniper Rifle. ever. 

Shotguns could theoretically deal a lot of Damage, but only if you had the barrel stuck inside the dudes' face so you could get all of the pellets on a Weakpoint.

 

since that's never going to happen, that Sniper Rifle does the same Damage at all ranges, but the Shotgun, due to a spread, does a lot less damage immediately outside of danger close. because all of the Damage is spread across a lot of projectiles. on average, a few might miss entirely, a few might hit a Weakpoint, and the majority will hit the normal parts of the body.

 

that's a lot of potential Damage lost, and we're still in Close Range here. 

 

 

at any rate, i'm okay with Shotguns having average Damage. provided having a lot of pellets results in good chances for Status Effects - which it doesn't currently. Utility gives Shotguns a Support role, which is fine. 

 

not having falloff though, would be interesting to test.

though i could compromise on that, and simply drastically increase the dropoff range trend from what it is now, simply to keep them from getting lucky and outperforming at long range. i can understand that. so if the falloff started at Medium Range and ended at Long Range.

 

edit:

 

 

but there was a time when shotguns had NO damage falloff

the only reason Hek was so damn good was because of Additive Mods, making for the capability to have like 7m Piercing and 700% Multishot. that concatenated with high Damage per shot (for Equipment of the time, it was a flavor of the month Weapon then), made for a bad mixture.

 

it was the Mods that was the majority of the reason, not the style of Weapon.

 

 

 

 

Quail and other soft bodied game =/= Hard-metal robotics with deflection shields, crewmen in armored suits, and grineer in armored exo suits.

2 3/4" shells with Birdshot is still semi-lethal at medium range. a couple shells will still put someone on the ground. and with a tighter choke you could still cleave flesh at those ranges.

now, if you were to switch to actual combat oriented shot...yeah. and don't forget to switch to 3" shells.

Edited March 24, 2014 by taiiat

[LazyKnight]

-Snipe-

Boar prime and Sobek gain most of their power via their fire-rate. It doesn't matter what combination of mods are used they would be an inferior option to rifles let alone the other shotguns. These weapons would just be bad with the current tainted shell and no fall-off, it would be self defeating to build them in a way that could utilize the range.

 

There really is only two weapons that could take advantage of this because of the current penalty of fire-rate on tainted spread. Strun Wraith along with Hek could hit as hard as Grinlok, but it would it push the shotguns fire-rate under 1. One of the other shotgun fire-rate mod would have to be used on both of them; in essence it would take two mods slots for a shotgun to be able to fire as quickly as Grinlok, while taking advantage of tainted spread.

Edited March 24, 2014 by LazyKnight

[notionphil]

Boar prime and Sobek gain most of their power via their fire-rate. It doesn't matter what combination of mods are used they would be an inferior option to rifles let alone the other shotguns. These weapons would just be bad with the current tainted shell and no fall-off, it would be self defeating to build them in a way that could utilize the range.

 

There really is only two weapons that could take advantage of this because of the current penalty of fire-rate on tainted spread. Strun Wraith along with Hek could hit as hard as Grinlok, but it would it push the shotguns fire-rate under 1. One of the other shotgun fire-rate mod would have to be used on both of them; in essence it would take two mods slots for a shotgun to be able to fire as quickly as Grinlok, while taking advantage of tainted spread.

 

Right, I can agree that the current 'balance' (if you want to call it that) would not be thrown off by removing the fall-off and keeping the TS mod as is. Top tier shotgun damage isn't even superior to top-tier rifle. Fall-off reduction is a good start, but honestly not enough.

 

However, my actual suggestion is that shotgun damage (and spread) be increased so they are MORE effective than rifles in the short range, slightly less effective in medium and, and far less effective in long range.

 

And if that is the case, TS mod would need to reduce damage to mitigate that addl damage per shot at medium and long ranges.

 

My 2c.

Edited March 24, 2014 by notionphil

[LazyKnight]

However, my actual suggestion is that shotgun damage (and spread) be increased so they are MORE effective than rifles in the short range, slightly less effective in medium and, and far less effective in long range.

To achieve this, it could  be an idea to get rid of the blaze mod and move the damage percentage to vicious spread. This would free up one mod slot and it would standardize shotguns so they would have two damage mods like rifles and pistols. Vicious spread could also have it spread increase if needed and have its rank raised to 10. This type of change would give people short ranged power if they want it, but less power at medium and long range.

 

 

Brimir had an idea about this in another topic moving Blaze's damage to point blank.

[notionphil]

To achieve this, it could  be an idea to get rid of the blaze mod and move the damage percentage to vicious spread. This would free up one mod slot and it would standardize shotguns so they would have two damage mods like rifles and pistols. Vicious spread could also have it spread increase if needed and have its rank raised to 10. This type of change would give people short ranged power if they want it, but less power at medium and long range.

 

 

Brimir had an idea about this in another topic moving Blaze's damage to point blank.

 

I'll look over those numbers later but that sounds like a really good concept.

 

Removing falloff is a good start, but shotguns can be made a viable but specialized alternative to rifles with a few simple tweaks like that.

[Boxyninja]

If DE intends some rifles compete with shotguns, add them to a new class of weapons; SMG's. SMG's use pistol mods. More reload speed, more fire rate, more multishot, and accuracy reduction on the corrupted mod. Obviously some say pistol mods are kind of OP, but that's a separate issue that I can't sort out in one quick post. :P

just look at the gradaka it was an attempt at a smg and lets be honest its trash atm.

 

i remember when shotguns didnt have damage fall off and it make the hek op as hell, because it has a tight spread and high(for shotguns) damage. At that point the hek was to go to gun because it could do the highest damage. If they removed it now it would probably be just below the bows due to their insane head shot damage, but it could out class most of the rifles. Dont forget about the mod that reduces spread and firerate.

 

all in all i would like it but then shotguns would out class most guns besides AoE and Bows.

[Noble_Cactus]

Boar prime and Sobek gain most of their power via their fire-rate. It doesn't matter what combination of mods are used they would be an inferior option to rifles let alone the other shotguns. These weapons would just be bad with the current tainted shell and no fall-off, it would be self defeating to build them in a way that could utilize the range.

 

There really is only two weapons that could take advantage of this because of the current penalty of fire-rate on tainted spread. Strun Wraith along with Hek could hit as hard as Grinlok, but it would it push the shotguns fire-rate under 1. One of the other shotgun fire-rate mod would have to be used on both of them; in essence it would take two mods slots for a shotgun to be able to fire as quickly as Grinlok, while taking advantage of tainted spread.

 

They would hit just as hard as a Grinlok? That's... ouch.

 

Not saying you're wrong, just that they would only hit as hard as a Grinlok for less fire rate and only if all the pellets hit is silly on DE's part, to put it lightly.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[taiiat]

just look at the gradaka it was an attempt at a smg and lets be honest its trash atm.

er.

Grakata is a very respectable gun. it gets a lot of Damage out between Crits and Status Effects. 

and as you go up in levels, this increases forever.

 

 

 

all in all i would like it but then shotguns would out class most guns besides AoE and Bows.

 

i don't see how a Shotgun is going to outclass a Sniper Rifle. ever. 

Shotguns could theoretically deal a lot of Damage, but only if you had the barrel stuck inside the dudes' face so you could get all of the pellets on a Weakpoint.

 

since that's never going to happen, that Sniper Rifle does the same Damage at all ranges, but the Shotgun, due to a spread, does a lot less damage immediately outside of danger close. because all of the Damage is spread across a lot of projectiles. on average, a few might miss entirely, a few might hit a Weakpoint, and the majority will hit the normal parts of the body.

 

that's a lot of potential Damage lost, and we're still in Close Range here. 

thereygo.

[LazyKnight]

They would hit just as hard as a Grinlok? That's... ouch.

 

Not saying you're wrong, just that they would only hit as hard as a Grinlok for less fire rate and only if all the pellets hit is silly on DE's part, to put it lightly.

The problem with the shoguns is they need too many mods to make a Tainted shell build viable. They need the 3 normal damage mods (point blank, hell's chamber, and blaze) and to get a tainted shell working with a fire-rate above 1 requires using accelerated blast or shotgun spaz. This only has 3 mods slots open for elemental mods and is the primary reason that they would be on par with a Grinlok.

 

Grinlok has room to just do a normal 2 damage mods, 2 critical mods and 4 90% elemental mods. The critical hits would make the damage spikier than shotguns, but it would be higher just because it doesn't need to waste 2 mods slots.

Edited March 25, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Edgedemon]

There's no need for it. Shotguns are already punished at range by spread, which is just fine - it is what you'd expect for a Shotgun in a video game.

 

Spread and fall-off? That is just too much.

 

"But wait!", I hear you say, "Then you could just mod for -Spread and use your Shotgun at greater range!" Well. Yes? Modding is supposed to be beneficial! If you want to spend the mod capacity/slot for it, why shouldn't you be allowed to?

 

shot guns ARE short range weapons, the shells design and the pellets shape make them lose power faster than bullets, that's how a real shotgun works so why would they have to change that?

 

on another note:

 

have you ever heard of "Drakgoon"? it has no fall off whatsoever, and even has a sniper mode.

 

or even better yet (if you want to make all shotguns like that) VOLT ELECTRIC SHIELD  would make any shotgun play like that.

 

staying still with a shotgun isn't a smart idea? yeah i know but sniping with one isn't too bright either.

 

from where i stand is not that you got no options but that you don't like  the ones you have.

 

and well not everyone can have what they want (if they did next frame would be pony themed).

[angrykenji]

before damage drop-off:

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/560973724633182112/8FCE631E339406F48FC8DF9AD1691F334F5A42EC/

taken Jul 23, 2013... around beta 6 or 7 days, i think??

 

shotgun sniping was extremely fun but crazy OP. my HEK then was sniping targets a good 40-50m away, one shotting them.

i agree drop-off is good but the ranges are a bit funky

[SquirmyBurrito]

shot guns ARE short range weapons, the shells design and the pellets shape make them lose power faster than bullets, that's how a real shotgun works so why would they have to change that?

 

on another note:

 

have you ever heard of "Drakgoon"? it has no fall off whatsoever, and even has a sniper mode.

 

or even better yet (if you want to make all shotguns like that) VOLT ELECTRIC SHIELD  would make any shotgun play like that.

 

staying still with a shotgun isn't a smart idea? yeah i know but sniping with one isn't too bright either.

 

from where i stand is not that you got no options but that you don't like  the ones you have.

 

and well not everyone can have what they want (if they did next frame would be pony themed).

 

How do you define 'short range'?

[Ribboz]

+1000

 

Shotguns need this change.

[Boondorl]

Damage fall-off should be removed, period.

 

The only reason people complained about shotgun sniping (aka Hek sniping, because sniping with Boar and Strun was impossible to do efficiently) is because the Latron and Snipetron, both MR0 weapons, were bad compared to a MR4 weapon. Not to mention they could be bought with credits. Hek was one of the only primary weapons in the game that needed to be crafted at the time, and neurodes were a lot harder to come by back then, especially given how hard Hek was to kill.

 

The same logic used to defend Boltor Prime and Soma is completely thrown out the door when it comes to the shotguns. Even then, would shotgun sniping seriously be considered a problem nowadays? Most of the weapons were awful back then. Now they're not, and are actually far better than the shotgun class as a whole. Yeah, I'm sure the Hek is so OP. That's why they buffed its damage from 140 to 176 recently, right? Because of how OP it was?

 

Most of the new shotguns couldn't even snipe effectively. They don't have anywhere near the pellet count for it. Hek was a niche weapon at its time. It had tight spread and high damage, but only 4 shots. That was 4 guaranteed kills. Its tight spread made it bad for taking out groups of enemies, and the puncture mod was only 0.35m back then, so its crowd control was pretty garbage. But unlike Strun or Boar which could get anywhere from 0 to 15 kills in one magazine, Hek, when aimed, was guaranteed to give you 4. That's what made it worthy of its MR4 status. Nowadays the new shotguns only have tight spread because they would be utterly useless if they didn't. Sobek and Tigris both have 4 pellets. If the spread were any wider, you'd hit nothing.

 

Anytime someone suggests we do something to make the shotguns more fun and viable, there always needs to be some sh*tty tradeoff to make them less fun. Why? The shotguns already have terrible mods, low crit chance and damage, bad proc chance, small magazines, low firerates, long reloads, terrible accuracy, and terrible range due to said accuracy. The only good thing about them is their damage and how satisfying they feel. Do we really need to make them even more awful? Why, so some guy isn't allowed to have fun? The only other community I've seen treat shotguns as awful as this one is the Planetside 2 community.

 

I just don't understand why this is even an issue still. At this point, the community is just beating a dead horse into a bloody pulp and bathing in it. Shotguns have been utterly useless since the fall-off nerf. I have yet to see one person using one other than for mastery. I wish I was joking. I don't count the Phage because it's just a multishot Synapse. Hell, I don't even see people use Boar Prime. The only people who still want fall-off on shotguns are the ones who weren't even there for when it was put in place. They just know some people whined about it back then, so clearly it must be OP.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Boondorl

[kaboomonme]

 

Anytime someone suggests we do something to make the shotguns more fun and viable, there always needs to be some sh*tty tradeoff to make them less fun. Why? The shotguns already have terrible mods, low crit chance and damage, bad proc chance, small magazines, low firerates, long reloads, terrible accuracy, and terrible range due to said accuracy. The only good thing about them is their damage and how satisfying they feel. Do we really need to make them even more awful? Why, so some guy isn't allowed to have fun? The only other community I've seen treat shotguns as awful as this one is the Planetside 2 community.

I just don't understand why this is even an issue still. At this point, the community is just beating a dead horse into a bloody pulp and bathing in it. Shotguns have been utterly useless since the fall-off nerf. I have yet to see one person using one other than for mastery. I wish I was joking. I don't count the Phage because it's just a multishot Synapse. Hell, I don't even see people use Boar Prime. The only people who still want fall-off on shotguns are the ones who weren't even there for when it was put in place. They just know some people whined about it back then, so clearly it must be OP.

 

Thank you for your persuasive suggestion, constructive feedback and accurate, fact-based accusations. 

This thread is going nowhere. I'm all for the change if this is the direction the game is taking in the long run. It would only ease the painful spiral the current system has ushered itself into now, for at least a little while. Power Creep will devour everything that ever existed that you ever loved, and there is nothing you can do...nothing you will do to stop it.

[taiiat]

Power Creep will devour everything that ever existed that you ever loved, and there is nothing you can do...nothing you will do to stop it.

unless we just... don't creep Stats.

:O

 

i know. it's bold. it's uncharted territory. it's EXTREME.

 

(maybe that means Digital Extremes will climb over each other to do it first :D)

[kaboomonme]

unless we just... don't creep Stats.

:O

 

i know. it's bold. it's uncharted territory. it's EXTREME.

 

(maybe that means Digital Extremes will climb over each other to do it first :D)

1. But by buffing things to keep up with what is considered viable at the moment (You know what I'm talking about), content will eventually be considered boring and obsolete as everything needs to beat everything in terms of DPS, and there would be a call for new content.

2. New content is released, and to complement the new, strong weapons, they release... HIGHER LEVELED ENEMIES! That can sponge up more bullets! And thus some weapons fall into the "Not worth your forma", "Stupid and pointless", "Rank up then sell" tier.

3. Those weapons are called for buffs again, just because they take 2 or 3 more shots to dispatch the same enemy, and are thus considered "Master Rank Fodder".

4. Look back at 1.

Rinse and repeat.

EDIT : I hate myself for derailing the thread, truly.

Edited March 25, 2014 by kaboomonme

[ObviousLee]

too drunk to contribute =/

[Jaon]

I very much doubt any Shotgun could "out-snipe" any of the Bows or Snipers if you remove Fall-Off. Good luck getting those big headshot numbers when your pellets are all over the place; better aim center mass than going for the head.

 

Well... maybe the Drakgoon. Fully charged that thing is fairly accurate, but then again it (like the Phage) isn't really a Shotgun but merely uses Shotgun mods.

 

 

Were you not here in the days of Hek dominance? 

There was nothing it couldnt 1 hit at any range, properly modded. It was the king of kings from a simpler time.

 

[SquirmyBurrito]

Were you not here in the days of Hek dominance? 

There was nothing it couldnt 1 hit at any range, properly modded. It was the king of kings from a simpler time.

 

 

Things have changed since then.

[Kalenath]

Were you not here in the days of Hek dominance? 

There was nothing it couldnt 1 hit at any range, properly modded. It was the king of kings from a simpler time.

 

 

Talk about OP weapons... Ah the memories...

[Daemon-of-Dirt]

The balance of the game really has shifted quite a lot.  No matter how you slice it, shotguns are the neglected stepchildren of the weapons world right now.