So The Grind Is Real, This We Know, But That Feeling When You Get Something!

[Ishki88]

I'll give 1 plat to anyone who can post a screenshot of someone who has 15 T4ext.

 

Just know you're not going to get 1 plat because reasons.

[Valiant]

 

 

Indeed it does.  I really play it a bit more than I should be.  Overall I still like the game very much.  

 

I wonder however, what those people who spew so much hate on Warframe are still doing here "wasting" their time on the forums with us though.  

 

=/

 

They're still here because some have likely spent money and also have hope things will get better. You can dislike something but still want it to succeed and go somewhere. It's just a different kind of dislike/hate.

 

People hated ME3's ending but still stuck to the forums and still like the series.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Naith

[[DE]Momaw]

BL1 is my shining example of a good loot system. In order to get the best items in the game, it doesn't require grinding, but farming..

 

That's how I feel about getting stuff in Warframe: there's no progress, you either get something or you don't. And when you don't it feels like a complete waste of time.

 

Interesting, I was actually thinking about Borderland the other day too.   The big difference I think is that in Borderlands, there are nearly infinite DEGREES of success.  Not every weapon is amazing, but the chances to get a piece of equipment that is good in some way is pretty high. You may have set out hoping to find a new shotgun but instead you find a nice machine gun that's a little faster or a little more accurate than what you had. Even legendary named drops were randomized. Just because you had a Defiler didn't mean that you had the best possible Defiler, and future drops of this rare weapon were still worth a close examination. In Warframe, success is binary:  Either you can use the drop, or you can't, and if you can't then it was a waste of time playing to get it (barely-extant barter system aside). It would be like if Borderlands only had 2 loot qualities: White, and orange, with orange items being completely static and identical so once you had one any further copies became worthless.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

They're still here because some have likely spent money and also have hope things will get better.

 

Well...  I guess people can and will hope, but I look at spending money on games as fair payment to enjoy it, just like buying movie tickets, etc. rather than an investment.

 

I mean...  If I wanted to watch something grow I'd put money in the stock market, etc.  I wish the devs the best of luck and will follow/support the game as long as I keep enjoying it, but I don't expect anything out of it.

[Valiant]

Well...  I guess people can and will hope, but I look at spending money on games as fair payment to enjoy it, just like buying movie tickets, etc. rather than an investment.

 

I mean...  If I wanted to watch something grow I'd put money in the stock market, etc.  I wish the devs the best of luck and will follow/support the game as long as I keep enjoying it, but I don't expect anything out of it.

Right but people have spent money on it because they enjoyed it. Also, regarding watching something grow, the founders package was loosely the same.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Naith

[Monybags33]

Ushually after a good item hunting with my friends we either

 

A - Find absolutely nothing and want to call it a day...

 

OR

 

B - Find the one part we all have been looking for and celebrate, again calling it a day.

 

Warframe has some issues with the grinding system of how you find loot, but its not all bad other games make this process either so easy or so boring that you just want to quit out of sheer numbness. Hopefully the way we find loot will be changed into something a little more interesting but for now its not so bad. Remember U14's UI display is going to yet again change in warframe this time even more drastically and with such dramatic changes like this in warframe who knows what crazy ideas they will come up with next.

[OniDax]

 

 

Indeed it does.  I really play it a bit more than I should be.  Overall I still like the game very much.  

 

I wonder however, what those people who spew so much hate on Warframe are still doing here "wasting" their time on the forums with us though.  

 

=/

 

 

Thing is, I love this game. It's cool. You get to look cool. It's got potential. But seriously, the grind is a bit much. And it's not really grind. For me it's the RNG. It's the fact that I'm wasting my time grinding for stuff when I'm never going to get an item I want based on the amount of grind I do. If I had to do 1000 runs of a certain node/mission to get a certain item, well crap, but at least after doing 1000 run I'd know I'm being rewarded for that amount of time. With RNG, there is no skill, no amount of playing, nothing of your own that you can do to get an item. It is purely by random chance. That's not farming. That's not even grinding (as in the traditional sense, grinding is playing over and over again to level up). It's gambling. It's a lottery system, the same system that runs Transmutation.

 

That's what's frustrating. You're not being rewarded for playing the game, and it doesn't "force you to play the game", as someone here told me yesterday, as if RNG rewards me for the amount of time I play. Those who get what they want are just lucky. Those who don't, aren't. And DE is completely out of touch with this. Take Prime Time last night for example. DEMegan made the joke, and I paraphrase, "I'll take Malicious Raptor from your [sheldon's] account and give it to another player." Sheldon responded, "Well I'll just get another one." Before that, she said that she doesn't have Malicious Raptor because she plays the game "the right way". It's easy for the devs to have screwed up Void drop tables and ridiculous RNG because they don't play the game the way their customers play the game. It's easy for them to ignore this because they don't grind their way to getting items. They just bypass the entire system and drop "six of them" into their accounts. If DE would play the game the way their playerbase plays the game, then maybe they'd come to the same conclusions that many of us come to. Maybe they'd begin to address the community's issues with the game. Maybe we wouldn't have a large backlash against the Void drop table because for once, the devs would actually experience the same thing we experience when we play these missions.

[[DE]Momaw]

It's easy for them to ignore this because they don't grind their way to getting items. They just bypass the entire system and drop "six of them" into their accounts. If DE would play the game the way their playerbase plays the game, then maybe they'd come to the same conclusions that many of us come to.

 

From the same stream, Sheldon admitted to having a secret public account. I know that several of the DE people play legit at least part of the time.

 

Though, since they can play anything they want at any time using their dev accounts, I have to wonder if failure to get rare drops carries the same "cost".  If you're a dev then you have probably already seen and messed around with everything coming out so failing to get it as a drop is rather different than a normal player who is completely at the mercy of RNG to experience new content. If you don't RNG it, you don't play it, period.

 

Something to ponder.

[OniDax]

Well, it's because of RNG that I'm glad you can trade items with plat.

 

That way I have a guaranteed chance of getting what I want if someone has it, and more than willing to spend plat to do so, and then I can actually spend time playing with the item that I want instead of spending an unknown amount of time gambling, not farming, for the item that I want.

Edited June 27, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Aggh]

 

 

That's how I feel about getting stuff in Warframe: there's no progress, you either get something or you don't. And when you don't it feels like a complete waste of time.

 

I had to run Vay Hek 72 times back for Frost parts ages ago, before he got the ice/fire rework (before U8). Seventy-two times. I could have cleared half my backlog in that time.

 

You mean lech kril.  He's been the only boss to drop frost since frost was first released.  But point taken.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Aggh

[DoomFruit]

What do I feel when I get something? Nothing. No joy, no anticipation, just "thank Oden, it's finally over".

 

Indeed it does.  I really play it a bit more than I should be.  Overall I still like the game very much.  

 

I wonder however, what those people who spew so much hate on Warframe are still doing here "wasting" their time on the forums with us though. 

Trying to convince others to give up before it destroys them as well.

[[DE]Momaw]

Well, it's because of RNG that I'm glad you can trade items with plat.

 

That way I have a guaranteed chance of getting what I want if someone has it, and more than willing to spend plat to do so, and then I can actually spend time playing with the item that I want instead of spending an unknown amount of time gambling, not farming, for the item that I want.

 

So you're okay with giving money to people for items that they can randomly get without effort or skill, while at the same time other people randomly don't get them despite busting their butts trying to earn them?

 

Strange.

[OniDax]

So you're okay with giving money to people for items that they can randomly get without effort or skill, while at the same time other people randomly don't get them despite busting their butts trying to earn them?

 

Strange.

 

It doesn't take skill or effort to get items. And you don't "earn" these items when you do get them. And yes, I'm fine giving platinum to people who randomly got items.

Edited June 27, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Valiant]

From the same stream, Sheldon admitted to having a secret public account. I know that several of the DE people play legit at least part of the time.

 

Though, since they can play anything they want at any time using their dev accounts, I have to wonder if failure to get rare drops carries the same "cost".  If you're a dev then you have probably already seen and messed around with everything coming out so failing to get it as a drop is rather different than a normal player who is completely at the mercy of RNG to experience new content. If you don't RNG it, you don't play it, period.

 

Something to ponder.

They may have a secret public account but how often do they play the game with it?

 

Edit: Also, AF's post actually identifies a key point... Sheldon's the one who is supposed to be in charge of the Void droptables or something right? If so, and I believe that is the case, that's reasonably worrying as he doesn't have the right mindset to really deal with them appropriately.

 

AntoineFlemming's post made me feel he should create a topic about it. Even though it'll likely be overlooked or receive the usual 'we've read the topic and will pass onto the devs' response.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Naith

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

Well, it's because of RNG that I'm glad you can trade items with plat.

 

That way I have a guaranteed chance of getting what I want if someone has it, and more than willing to spend plat to do so, and then I can actually spend time playing with the item that I want instead of spending an unknown amount of time gambling, not farming, for the item that I want.

 

This I can totally agree with.  I believe the best experience to be had with this game is part farm, part trading via platinum, and not simply one way or the other.  If someone were to totally rely on grinding missions for the primes and mods I can see how they'd lose their $#it.  While I farmed things the old fashioned way and maxed all the "necessary" mods before, trade has allowed me to play the game in a way I've always wanted to.  (which is grind whenever I can and skip the grind whenever I want.)  I remember those hundreds of T3D and T3Cs I had to run in order to get a Braton Prime Barrel before trading existed.  So close to rage-quitting back then.  XD

 

What do I feel when I get something? Nothing. No joy, no anticipation, just "thank Oden, it's finally over".

 

Trying to convince others to give up before it destroys them as well.

 

That's kinda scary, but I can see that happening to someone.  If you feel your accomplishments leave you feeling empty in this game why do you keep playing?  (I'm not asking this out of sarcasm or to be a jerk.  I'm truly curious.  Please share your thoughts.)

[OniDax]

I would, but I'm not the first to have a problem with RNG or drop tables. At this point it wouldn't do any good.

 

sushidubya, I'd imagine he/she keeps playing because it's not an "accomplishment". There is nothing you can do to earn these items. It's purely random. So how can you feel good about having "achieved" something if it's not of your own doing?

Edited June 27, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Valiant]

I would, but I'm not the first to have a problem with RNG or drop tables. At this point it wouldn't do any good.

 

sushidubya, I'd imagine he/she keeps playing because it's not an "accomplishment". There is nothing you can do to earn these items. It's purely random. So how can you feel good about having "achieved" something if it's not of your own doing?

I suppose, but I think the 'key' thing here would be just what was said in the stream. We've had evidence of 'we're aware of the grind' from the past livestream, followed by more grind, but this is another piece really, indicating how some of the devs may possibly be out of touch. On the upside it does show how some may be in touch as well though. As I said in my previous post, it's reasonably worrying that Sheldon has this view as he (I believe) was/is in charge of the Void droptables.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Naith

[Liminal]

You mean lech kril.  He's been the only boss to drop frost since frost was first released.  But point taken.

Oops! Yes, indeed. Back when we didn't know if Kril was a he or a she :P

[[DE]Momaw]

It doesn't take skill or effort to get items. And you don't "earn" these items when you do get them. And yes, I'm fine giving platinum to people who randomly got items.

 

....I think you completely misread the tone of my post. My point is that it seems very strange to justify a reward model that DOESN'T reward skill or effort, only luck, by saying that it's okay because you can just pay to bypass the unfair reward model.

 

 

I have a hundred-sided die. First person to roll 100 wins a cookie. But if you give me five bucks, you win without rolling.  That is literally what is going on and it seems good to you?

[OniDax]

....I think you completely misread the tone of my post. My point is that it seems very strange to justify a reward model that DOESN'T reward skill or effort, only luck, by saying that it's okay because you can just pay to bypass the unfair reward model.

 

 

I have a hundred-sided die. First person to roll 100 wins a cookie. But if you give me five bucks, you win without rolling.  That is literally what is going on and it seems good to you?

 

You misunderstood my post, then, because I don't think that being able to trade for plat makes the RNG system okay. I most certainly believe the RNG system is not okay. No, the reason I'm ok with trading plat, the ONLY reason really, is because for me it's better than having to deal with RNG.

 

And Naith, I made that thread you wanted me to make. Over in Feedback > General.

Edited June 27, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Yorinar]

So far I have made 46 attempts to get the bo prime handle without success.  At an average of about 15 minutes per attempt, that's eleven and a half hours of actual play time without any real reward. That's disregarding time spent in logistics of waiting around for groups to form.  There are entire games that can be completed in less time.

 

Also spent literally two weeks trying to get Gleaming Talon. No success. I only have it now because somebody far more lucky than me gave me one. STILL missing Stalking Fan, which theoretically can drop from the same missions.

 

Vague feelings of injustice are starting to turn into definite feelings of resentment.

 

Rewards that you can actually, reliably grind out?  Credits?  I have almost ten million and nothing to spend them on.  Mastery rank? I just passed 16 and it doesn't matter because there are neither mechanical or social advantages gained.

 

I couldn't agree more and you have my sympathy.  I managed to get Bo handle after the 10th run, but wyrm prime and loki prime are still far from my grasp.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I would, but I'm not the first to have a problem with RNG or drop tables. At this point it wouldn't do any good.

 

sushidubya, I'd imagine he/she keeps playing because it's not an "accomplishment". There is nothing you can do to earn these items. It's purely random. So how can you feel good about having "achieved" something if it's not of your own doing?

Yeah I can agree with that. So much of warframe is about perseverance, which is why many veterans are in fact burning out. I still log in to play now and then and get the new stuff, but I don't really play 2-4 hour sessions like I used to. At the moment owning stuff and forma'ing it is all there is to achieve in Warframe.

[MeduSalem]

I dunno, that "feeling" I usually got was me having to step away from the computer and question my decisions in life.

 

That.

[DoomFruit]

That's kinda scary, but I can see that happening to someone.  If you feel your accomplishments leave you feeling empty in this game why do you keep playing?  (I'm not asking this out of sarcasm or to be a jerk.  I'm truly curious.  Please share your thoughts.)

I don't. I stopped when update 13.7 came out and I realised that the grind will never get any better. As soon as I can get a replacement clan leader, I'm uninstalling the game.

 

EDIT: I did come on for a couple of hours last weekend to see what the event was like and to get the prova vandal, but that was my only WF time for the past 2.5 weeks.

Edited June 28, 2014 by DoomFruit

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

I don't. I stopped when update 13.7 came out and I realised that the grind will never get any better. As soon as I can get a replacement clan leader, I'm uninstalling the game.

 

EDIT: I did come on for a couple of hours last weekend to see what the event was like and to get the prova vandal, but that was my only WF time for the past 2.5 weeks.

 

Sad to see you go.  I can understand someone getting fed up with too much grind and burning out.  Plus, doing the same thing over and over again, for the umpteenth time to get a re-skin or a slight stat difference of the same item with the same mechanic just may not be enough for you.

 

In my case, I don't really look to warframe for some kind of fulfillment in life, etc. I've gone from being hardcore to playing casually now, and collecting items when they come out.  It's still fun for me, because I don't grind more than I want to and anyone feeling burnt out should really take a break for sure.

 

The art style, concept and movement of this game are very unique in my opinion, and Warframe does much of that better than other games I've played before.  The missions are a bit lacking and too repetitive though, so hopefully the devs work on that more.