7grims Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Thats what happens when people ask for challenge all the time ... So are the arc traps fun ? NO THEY ARE ANNOYING Do they stop people from rushing ? NO I GO EVEN FASTER TO AVOID THEM Why does DE keep trying to slow us down ? DE this game is fun because of its fast and agile movement, you should encourage rushing instead of those annoying traps. Keep on asking for challenge and this game will go down the sh*tter real fast. Would love that ppl who are against or in favor of arc traps to stop associating them with the rushers problem, never has been stated that these were a solution for rushers, and it haves been proven that they dont have no relation to stop rushers. Also would love for ppl to understand that rushers arent a problem, the lack of content and repetitive missions are what cause rushing. So the only way to DE to really stop rushers would be to create content worth playing and replaying, and solve to grinding/repetitiveness in a way it doesn't become such a burden. (this reply isnt against you Tr1ples1xer, its actually supporting what you said, and trying to add some more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idrinkbepis Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 i really hate the things to, they don't hurt you much but the screen effect really annoys me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbrandon1 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) And the very purpose of them being in all the odd places is automatically negated. I really don't understand kids nowadays. Kids: "Waaah waaah, I want more challenging gameplay." DE:"Here's a trap that is supposed to raise your situation awareness.". Kids again: "Waaaah waaaah, it's too OP, I'm being killed by something I can't see straight away." Should they put a large glowing red arrow so you can drink elixirs and cast buffs before you engage the dreaded trap? It's not unavoidable, end of story. You can stop, point and shoot. If that's too hard for you, there's always farmville. I'm actually so way ahead I have several whiners trying to prove the same nonexistent counter argument. The fact that you're upvoting each others replies just makes it sweeter. As for your "argument". So? It's a game. The ruleset is supposed to be tweaked for balance. The "IT'S NOT FAIR!!!! MOOOOOOOMMY!!!!!" is getting old now, please stop. And the very purpose of them being in all the odd places is automatically negated. I really don't understand kids nowadays. Kids: "Waaah waaah, I want more challenging gameplay." DE:"Here's a trap that is supposed to raise your situation awareness.". Kids again: "Waaaah waaaah, it's too OP, I'm being killed by something I can't see straight away." Should they put a large glowing red arrow so you can drink elixirs and cast buffs before you engage the dreaded trap? It's not unavoidable, end of story. You can stop, point and shoot. If that's too hard for you, there's always farmville. I'm actually so way ahead I have several whiners trying to prove the same nonexistent counter argument. The fact that you're upvoting each others replies just makes it sweeter. As for your "argument". So? It's a game. The ruleset is supposed to be tweaked for balance. The "IT'S NOT FAIR!!!! MOOOOOOOMMY!!!!!" is getting old now, please stop. You say they aren't unavoidable huh? Well, I got some pictures that can prove you wrong. As soon as you pop your head out, you get shocked, so the only way you would know is if you had the mind of gods, and even then, you would probably get shocked. As soon as you pass the locker, you will get shocked, and even you know it is there, you will have to go pass the locker to shoot it, and it will still hit you. I come down the zip line and get shocked before I even can spot it. You could say, why didn't you go down the pipes, well they previously had an arc trap on them. This one really requires the sight of gods to be able to spot this crap. You can't even see it before it shoots you so it is unavoidable, no matter what. As soon as I got into the extraction room, I was greeted with two arc traps zapping at the same time. Only way to spot them was to go through the door and as soon as you did that, you got zapped by them. I get you, but arc traps need to stay regardless. They're the newb filter. They may be a very cruel and crude newb filter, but they're doing their job. I always feel a bit dumb when I die from the arc trap, because I know I could'v prevented that by just paying more attention. If this gets through, the next thing they're going to complain are lasers in void, how they instakill without giving you a warning. The level of stupidity on these arguments is pretty damn high. Newb filter? So the goal is to &!$$ of players until they decide to give up playing the game because they are so annoyed by the arc traps constantly zapping them and also getting them killed during firefights? That is a pretty stupid idea. DE already have people leaving the game because of the game being too darn repetitive right now, now you want people to quit right off the bat? Even if this is supposed to teach you about situation awareness, there are so many ways that this could have been done better, or at least give them better traps then this crap. Also, your last point being that this will lead to the lasers in the void, if you mean the lasers in the defense of void, then yes, that needs to be looked at. So many people have gotten downed because someone decided to use the lasers to stop the overwhelming amount of troops coming at them, but forgot Bob was out there trying to deal with them. He needs to at least have an easy sign that the lasers are on and are coming his way so he can dodge it. Anything that can insta-kill you should at least provide a better warning then it does right now.(I'm looking at you void grenades). If you mean the little lasers that spin on those onions, then no one is complaining about those, you can dodge those pretty easily and they are see-able. Even if I post this, your probably still gonna deny it and defend it like it is a good idea, no matter what, right? Edited July 1, 2014 by Pbrandon1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7grims Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 And the very purpose of them being in all the odd places is automatically negated. I really don't understand kids nowadays. Kids: "Waaah waaah, I want more challenging gameplay." DE:"Here's a trap that is supposed to raise your situation awareness.". Kids again: "Waaaah waaaah, it's too OP, I'm being killed by something I can't see straight away." Should they put a large glowing red arrow so you can drink elixirs and cast buffs before you engage the dreaded trap? The problem isnt they are too much op, or that we cant handle the challenge. They are annoying and useless, and very bad designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dashashou Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 if they had better placement , and only turned on if your moving a running speed they would work as intended , but as is way too punishing to light frames , and ignoble to heavier frames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyNerd Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) You say they aren't unavoidable huh? Well, I got some pictures that can prove you wrong. As soon as I got into the extraction room, I was greeted with two arc traps zapping at the same time. Only way to spot them was to go through the door and as soon as you did that, you got zapped by them. You have several pictures! A very credible evidence for a motion picture! Post some video so I can laugh at your incompetence. Newb filter? So the goal is to &!$$ of players until they decide to give up playing the game because they are so annoyed by the arc traps constantly zapping them and also getting them killed during firefights? That is a pretty stupid idea. DE already have people leaving the game because of the game being too darn repetitive right now, now you want people to quit right off the bat? The goal is to teach players situation awareness, which you obviously haven't mastered. As many veteran players would tell you: Either slide past them or learn2aim. Have you considered our lord... sry wrong line ... farmville as an alternative to your current game choice, that's more in line with your capabilities? Also, your last point being that this will lead to the lasers in the void, if you mean the lasers in the defense of void, then yes, that needs to be looked at. So many people have gotten downed because someone decided to use the lasers to stop the overwhelming amount of troops coming at them, but forgot Bob was out there trying to deal with them. He needs to at least have an easy sign that the lasers are on and are coming his way so he can dodge it. Anything that can insta-kill you should at least provide a better warning then it does right now.(I'm looking at you void grenades). If you mean the little lasers that spin on those onions, then no one is complaining about those, you can dodge those pretty easily and they are see-able. Even if I post this, your probably still gonna deny it and defend it like it is a good idea, no matter what, right? There, I called it and you proved me right. I couldn't as for more from a "counter argument". The problem isnt they are too much op, or that we cant handle the challenge. They are annoying and useless, and very bad designed. They're annoying, end of story, good design, perfect if I might add. It's not my problem you, and every other whiner here, aren't capable of comprehending a simple fact that annoyance is a distraction, which is EXACTLY what traps were designed for. /thread right there, but keep going, I'm just adding another stamp on my Red Baron I use to shoot down whiners. if they had better placement , and only turned on if your moving a running speed they would work as intended , but as is way too punishing to light frames , and ignoble to heavier frames Yes, let's stop the game while you're standing too, so you can pick off enemies at your leisure and move on when you're certain that the danger is over. I must direct you to another game, called Fallout 3. There you will find this wonderful piece of gaming feature called VATS. It allows you to do exactly what you desire, ruining the FPS experience for even CoD players. Edited July 1, 2014 by DeadlyNerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis49 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) And the very purpose of them being in all the odd places is automatically negated. I really don't understand kids nowadays. Kids: "Waaah waaah, I want more challenging gameplay." DE:"Here's a trap that is supposed to raise your situation awareness.". Kids again: "Waaaah waaaah, it's too OP, I'm being killed by something I can't see straight away." Should they put a large glowing red arrow so you can drink elixirs and cast buffs before you engage the dreaded trap? It's not unavoidable, end of story. You can stop, point and shoot. If that's too hard for you, there's always farmville. Uh, no, they can very well be unavoidable since they fire clean through objects and walls, don't respect LoS and have a tendency to spawn inside other objects and walls where they can't be engaged. Any challenge that can't be dealt with solely by player skill is anything but. And note, I've yet to be killed by one (or by the old broken lights for that matter). If the idea is to make guys slow down, they're an abject failure. In the words of Gen. Zhukov "if our infantry comes to a minefield, we proceed exactly as if it wasn't there", simply because sticking around and spending the time to clear traps means you're likely spending more time under enemy fire. They just don't serve an actual purpose; they never have. Nevermind that they look silly as all hell when you see one floating sideways in mid-air. :-P Edited July 1, 2014 by Taranis49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyNerd Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Uh, no, they can very well be unavoidable since they fire clean through objects and walls, don't respect LoS and have a tendency to spawn inside other objects and walls where they can't be engaged. Any challenge that can't be dealt with solely by player skill is anything but. And note, I've yet to be killed by one (or by the old broken lights for that matter). If the idea is to make guys slow down, they're an abject failure. In the words of Gen. Zhukov "if our infantry comes to a minefield, we proceed exactly as if it wasn't there", simply because sticking around and spending the time to clear traps means you're likely spending more time under enemy fire. They just don't serve an actual purpose; they never have. Nevermind that they look silly as all hell when you see one floating sideways in mid-air. :-P The game has linear level design on everything but survival missions, meaning you won't find a trap stuck behind a wall in a room that you can't reach that particular moment. Also, I have yet to find a placement where it's either very hard to get to, or you can't escape the trap quickly. At this point I highly doubt you haven't been downed by one. The idea, which neither you can fathom, is that annoyance is distraction, and arc traps are doing their job perfectly. General Zhukov never had the problem with minefields because he never had a problem with army size. You do know that Russian army lost by far the most soldiers due to purely relying on numbers to win and rushing the enemy regardless of their entrenchment(mine fields). Edited July 1, 2014 by DeadlyNerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tr1ples1xer Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 They just don't serve an actual purpose; they never have. Nevermind that they look silly as all hell when you see one floating sideways in mid-air. :-P Exactly, no purpose, no challenge especially no fun whatsoever, DE dun goofed on this one. I'm ok with the doors thingy, but these arcs are just there to piss you off which I don't understand why DE would want that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbrandon1 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) You have several pictures! A very credible evidence for a motion picture! Post some video so I can laugh at your incompetence. The goal is to teach players situation awareness, which you obviously haven't mastered. As many veteran players would tell you: Either slide past them or learn2aim. Have you considered our lord... sry wrong line ... farmville as an alternative to your current game choice, that's more in line with your capabilities? There, I called it and you proved me right. I couldn't as for more from a "counter argument". They're annoying, end of story, good design, perfect if I might add. It's not my problem you, and every other whiner here, aren't capable of comprehending a simple fact that annoyance is a distraction, which is EXACTLY what traps were designed for. /thread right there, but keep going, I'm just adding another stamp on my Red Baron I use to shoot down whiners. Yes, let's stop the game while you're standing too, so you can pick off enemies at your leisure and move on when you're certain that the danger is over. I must direct you to another game, called Fallout 3. There you will find this wonderful piece of gaming feature called VATS. It allows you to do exactly what you desire, ruining the FPS experience for even CoD players. Wow, I was completely right, you looked at my pictures and dismissed it as though I was incompetent and still continued to defend it as though it was a perfect game design even though I gave a description and how you could not avoid it. There is no hope getting through to you, you are just blindly defending it right now. (I can tell you I was being very careful while doing that mission and still got shocked, so your stance on I was incompetent and don't have situation awareness is invalid.) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=blindly http://lmgtfy.com/?q=defending Before I leave, having a game design that is suppose to be annoying is not good game design at all. That is terrible game design, you don't want your players being annoyed while they are playing your game, you want them to be having a good time. Oh WOW! THEY PROVIDED A SECOND OF A DISTRACTION! Inb4 you go right back to killing like nothing ever changed right after you destroy it. Others are in positions that are just there to be annoying and not distracting at all, much like the ones at the extraction point but then again you could call that a distraction since they are there to distract you from extracting. You could also call the enemies outside of extermination a distraction to since they distract you from your goal right? You see, there is a thing called good distractions, like the door traps, cameras, and enemies but bad distractions that don't change much like arc traps. You need things that can hinder your progress, not just annoy you for a bit and you can just proceed on your merry way like nothing changed but you got shocked a bit. It's bad game design, which you don't seem familiar with. Like I said before, do you really believe it is a good idea to present a trap that is suppose to annoy the crap of new players so that they can have situation awareness which may fail at that all together and just be convinced running through would be better or just quitting because they find they can't go through another by being shocked? Even if you do slow down and decide to go at walking speed so you can take care of these arc traps, it is slow, even though DE presents this game as being a face paced game? If they want us to slow down then why don't they get rid of fury mods and make it where it requires skill to get it or get rid of the boost coptering gives you, or not have a frame have an ability that makes you go at lightning speeds. We all know that is not gonna happen, so the only thing left to do is remove the arc traps, as they are pointless and serve nothing but to annoy people for a second and then get right back to action, hardly changing much. Before you even say it too, the traps like the doors hinder your progress, yes they provide a distraction but aren't unavoidable and it presented in a way you can see. I said some of this already before and I'm not repeating it again. Also, your insults aren't really helping your argument too, and I also did it too so you realize how annoying it can be. Sometimes you have to be a hypocrite so people can understand that they are acting unprofessional. Edited July 2, 2014 by Letter13 Removing disrespectful comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) -snippity- I think we got off on the wrong foot here. But it comes down to this; arc traps are badly designed because they are not a challenge. They are an annoyance. It isn't an annoyance that causes distraction that affects gameplay in the way you're defending it. It's just an annoyance. I'm not sure why you think it's a challenge. 'Situational awareness' doesn't cover it. If there was an enemy that instantly killed you once you got into its sight range, you'd probably think that was a challenge too. At least laser panels and corpus security doorways actually do their job. You're a bit silly if you run in to those. As it is, arc traps aren't challenging, and half the time they spawn in stupid places. They are a poor addition, in my opinion, and though I can clearly see you think they're fine, you could probably show it in a way that doesn't make you look like a sod. But of course, anyone who disagrees with an aspect of the game like an enemy or something that does damage is automatically a noob who wants everything to be easy, right? Seems to be how these forums work. Edited July 1, 2014 by AdunSaveMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awazx Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 CONSISTENCY PLEASE. If anything, this game lacks is consistency. There are many things that make no sense. But do not worry, U14 is under way and will solve everything. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpite Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) So from what I've read here, there's a bunch of people that are colorblind for orange and white, can't strafe, and have a very bad case of hyperactivity, as they can't slow down, shoot the thing that just shot arcs at them and move on. How they manage to resist natural selection is beyond me. Hey Neo, dodge these: http://imgur.com/03M98v5 http://imgur.com/7G6Inqp ^^^^^ Note how it still targets me while invisible. Maybe mobs should just cover themselves in Arc Traps to kill Loki's? http://imgur.com/KcjzxxU ^^^^^ I wasn't going into that doorway, I came through that doorway and turned around to take screenshot. http://imgur.com/WGkMMdp Edited July 2, 2014 by DSpite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dashashou Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 notice the bolts and thats with max shred on , still can't touch it but it can shock u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneakatone Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 they are to distort you so you cant see anything while shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7grims Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 notice the bolts and thats with max shred on , still can't touch it but it can shock u Ok, im against arc traps too, but please stop that. You are pointing out a bug, something not planned, making all the argument of being against arc traps, a simple factor of bugs. The fact is even if these arc traps are clearly on a wall or in-front of an object, they hard to spot, since you dont usually go around the map looking for tiny objects on the map that may harm you. Unlike other traps that were well designed specifically to fit certain tilesets, that you have learned to read the signs of their presence and existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpite Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 The game has linear level design on everything but survival missions, meaning you won't find a trap stuck behind a wall in a room that you can't reach that particular moment. Also, I have yet to find a placement where it's either very hard to get to, or you can't escape the trap quickly. At this point I highly doubt you haven't been downed by one. The idea, which neither you can fathom, is that annoyance is distraction, and arc traps are doing their job perfectly. General Zhukov never had the problem with minefields because he never had a problem with army size. You do know that Russian army lost by far the most soldiers due to purely relying on numbers to win and rushing the enemy regardless of their entrenchment(mine fields). What you don't seem to fathom, is that Arc Traps don't respect a logical way to deal with them. They are immune to Penta granades - and possibly explosive weapons in general - and there is no twisting of logic that can get around that - they can float in midair, Rhino Stomp wont kill them, Molecular Prime wont work ... flawed mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyNerd Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) I think we got off on the wrong foot here. But it comes down to this; arc traps are badly designed because they are not a challenge. They are an annoyance. It isn't an annoyance that causes distraction that affects gameplay in the way you're defending it. It's just an annoyance. I'm not sure why you think it's a challenge. 'Situational awareness' doesn't cover it. If there was an enemy that instantly killed you once you got into its sight range, you'd probably think that was a challenge too. At least laser panels and corpus security doorways actually do their job. You're a bit silly if you run in to those. As it is, arc traps aren't challenging, and half the time they spawn in stupid places. They are a poor addition, in my opinion, and though I can clearly see you think they're fine, you could probably show it in a way that doesn't make you look like a sod. But of course, anyone who disagrees with an aspect of the game like an enemy or something that does damage is automatically a noob who wants everything to be easy, right? Seems to be how these forums work. Let me ask you 1 thing. Do you get distracted by mosquitoes or remain focused, despite all the buzzing and occasional stings? You're wrong about noobs. There are 2 types, regular and entitled whining kids. Regular will attempt to prevail the obstacle while raging at the same time, which is perfectly normal. Entitled whining kids will pause the game, alt-tab, open game forums or reddit and whine till their fingers bleed, without even putting effort into solving their problem themselves. Current WoW endgame was born that way. Hey Neo, dodge these: http://imgur.com/03M98v5 http://imgur.com/7G6Inqp ^^^^^ Note how it still targets me while invisible. Maybe mobs should just cover themselves in Arc Traps to kill Loki's? http://imgur.com/KcjzxxU ^^^^^ I wasn't going into that doorway, I came through that doorway and turned around to take screenshot. http://imgur.com/WGkMMdp Oh noes! You had to turn around to shoot something! OH LAWD, THE BLASPHEMY, THIS MAN HAS BEEN WRONGED. THOU SHALT NEVER HATH TO TURN AROUND TO SHOOT SOMETHING!!!! Praise be the lord!!!! I took the red pill. What you don't seem to fathom, is that Arc Traps don't respect a logical way to deal with them. They are immune to Penta granades - and possibly explosive weapons in general - and there is no twisting of logic that can get around that - they can float in midair, Rhino Stomp wont kill them, Molecular Prime wont work ... flawed mechanics. What you don't seem to fathom is that game rules can be fabricated in any way devs want, and don't have to follow any pattern or logic. If traps don't react to AoE, it's for a reason. I'm sorry to hear(read) you aren't capable of understanding that reason, but it's the way it has to be so I suggest you man up and find a way to deal with it. Wow, I was completely right, you looked at my pictures and dismissed it as though I was incompetent and still continued to defend it as though it was a perfect game design even though I gave a description and how you could not avoid it. There is no hope getting through to you, you are just blindly defending it right now. (I can tell you I was being very careful while doing that mission and still got shocked, so your stance on I was incompetent and don't have situation awareness is invalid.) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=blindly http://lmgtfy.com/?q=defending HAHA, blindly defending! Oh man, you crack me up. the only one blind here is obviously you, as you can't notice a bright orange circle on the wall, or anywhere else for that matter. Before I leave, having a game design that is suppose to be annoying is not good game design at all. That is terrible game design, you don't want your players being annoyed while they are playing your game, you want them to be having a good time. You'll be back, your ego doesn't allow you to leave. Btw, repeating 1 thing over and over, hoping for different outcomes, as in me accepting your point of view, is called insanity. If this has been done on purpose, I would suggest you see a worker in the related profession. Oh WOW! THEY PROVIDED A SECOND OF A DISTRACTION! Inb4 you go right back to killing like nothing ever changed right after you destroy it. So if it's only a second of distraction, why are you screaming about it with your pants down? Screaming about pointless topics is related to PMS. While it's completely normal with women, as you have to understand what they're going through, it's not normal with men. You might want to check with your doctor about a blood sample and X/Y chromosome count. Rest of this paragraph is pretty irrelevant due to the first sentence.(you know, the screaming part) Like I said before, do you really believe it is a good idea to present a trap that is suppose to annoy the crap of new players so that they can have situation awareness which may fail at that all together and just be convinced running through would be better or just quitting because they find they can't go through another by being shocked? Even if you do slow down and decide to go at walking speed so you can take care of these arc traps, it is slow, even though DE presents this game as being a face paced game? If they want us to slow down then why don't they get rid of fury mods and make it where it requires skill to get it or get rid of the boost coptering gives you, or not have a frame have an ability that makes you go at lightning speeds. We all know that is not gonna happen, so the only thing left to do is remove the arc traps, as they are pointless and serve nothing but to annoy people for a second and then get right back to action, hardly changing much. Before you even say it too, the traps like the doors hinder your progress, yes they provide a distraction but aren't unavoidable and it presented in a way you can see. I said some of this already before and I'm not repeating it again. Also, your insults aren't really helping your argument too, and I also did it too so you realize how annoying it can be. Sometimes you have to be a hypocrite so people can understand that they are acting unprofessional. Do you really think it is a good idea to scream at people and act rudely because they're doing such a good job of proving you wrong? DE hasn't touched the arc trap after turning it into a DoT effect, meaning that they won't touch it at all. You're like a football player arguing with the referee, trying to get your way despite the fact that referee NEVER changes his mind. I mean, that's childish behavior.("mommy I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT!!!!!") You keep going on about me saying something. The fact is, I've already said it, and I'm not going to repeat myself for you. Charles the great was pretty short after he got off his high horse. Also, au contraire monsuoir, I'm not insulting anyone. If you feel insulted by what I've written, then I'm afraid you have a very low opinion of yourself. If that is the case, I would again suggest you visit a worker in the related profession. Finally, nope, you were wrong. Edited July 2, 2014 by DeadlyNerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 -snip dogg- You're a fun little person. Calling us childish, then acting like a child. They're flawed. Sorry to taint your vision of this perfect mechanic. Go contribute nothing somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letter13 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Locking at the thread starter's request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts