Absorb + Friendly Damage = Rip Nyx

[notionphil]

I've been maining Nyx since I first farmed her, over a year ago. She was popular, then out of favor, then flavor-of-the-month-OP, and after the latest 'tweak'...literally broken.

 

Why?

 

• Nyx’s Absorb ... now has an energy drain based on incoming damage. This drain is 8 energy per 1000 damage [absorbed]

 

 

Allies WILL intentionally and unintentionally troll you.

 

Guess where the most appropriate place to use Absorb is? In the middle of a crowd of enemies.

Guess where your allies are most likely to shoot, swing and cast? In the middle of a crowd of enemies.

 

A well-modded penta or boltor prime can do nearly 20K damage a second, costing you 160 energy BY MISTAKE. In one second. What can 3 allies do? Or one "ally" who is actually a troll?

 

Yes, your team can not only ruin your ult cast, but also drain your energy reserves in less than a second.

 

      -Imagine if an ally firing at Rhino's Iron skin damaged it, then drained his energy when it was depleted?

 

      -Imagine if allies shooting Frost's globe damaged it?

 

      -Imagine if shooting Nova's anti-matter-drop terminated it and drained her energy?

 

      -Imagine if shooting Mirage's clones, or Nekro's shadows killed them, auto-draining his energy to replace them?

 

      -Imagine if shooting Nyx's mind controlled target killed it?

 

...Oh. Actually.... it does. Nyx now has two abilities which can be easily trolled, or more likely mistakenly ruined by allies.

 

How to fix this: Ally inflicted damage simply must not affect energy drain rate. If it does, make it cap it a very low value, such as adding 1 energy per second, no matter how much damage is inflicted.

 

Honestly, Absorb should have a cap on drain per second no matter where it comes from, such as max 10 energy per second.

 

This would also fix the other problem this "tweak" created, which is that Absorb's scaling is broken bc enemy HP scales far faster than enemy damage. I get it that Absorb was too powerful, but the resolution to that isn't making the skill an instant energy drain for Nyx. A cap is needed.

Edited September 2, 2014 by notionphil

[AureusVulpes]

Everything in this game that is based on damage redirection will always be useless in this game, same with PvP, due to how grossly unbalanced enemy HP progression scales in comparison to player HP. This results in the weapons the player uses being grossly unbalanced, and enemy damage being a pittance against their own HP (which is really ironic).

 

Basically, until enemy HP is in line with player HP (and as a result, weapon damage output) nothing based around damage redirection or PvP will ever work properly. I cannot say I've ever played a game involving an "RPG stat"-like system where the numbers were so lopsided. In fact, the numbers in Warframe are done so arbitrarily and without any real reason, that I sometimes wonder how much longer Warframe will actually last with all the balance problems. That in itself isn't the issue, the problem is that if DE actually tries to fix this, the uninformed will whine about how DE is nerfing all their weapons to be too similar, and the effort they've put into their weapons will be poinltess and wasted.

 

Rock and a hard place for actual balance.

Edited September 2, 2014 by AureusVulpes

[notionphil]

Everything in this game that is based on damage redirection will always be useless in this game, same with PvP, due to how grossly unbalanced enemy HP progression scales in comparison to player HP. This results in the weapons the player uses being grossly unbalanced, and enemy damage being a pittance against their own HP (which is really ironic).

 

Basically, until enemy HP is in line with player HP (and as a result, weapon damage output) nothing based around damage redirection or PvP will ever work properly. I cannot say I've ever played a game involving an "RPG stat"-like system where the numbers were so lopsided. In fact, the numbers in Warframe are done so arbitrarily and without any real reason, that I sometimes wonder how much longer Warframe will actually last with all the balance problems. That in itself isn't the issue, the problem is that if DE actually tries to fix this, the uninformed will whine about how DE is nerfing all their weapons to be too similar, and the effort they've put into their weapons will be poinltess and wasted.

 

Rock and a hard place for actual balance.

 

 

Damage redirection can be made to work fine with creative applications, such as AoE damage absorption (like Absorb) or adding a multiple to absorbed damage. Not an issue at all.

 

Absorb's damage is fine; it's the 'energy consumed' to 'damage dealt' ratio which is now broken upon scaling. That is a secondary issue to the 'friendly fire' energy drain, which can and should be addressed at the same time.

 

This thread also has nothing to do with PvP balance, and DE has already illustrated they can balance PvP skills separately.

[noveltyhero]

To be honest I didn't find Nyx stupid strong before the tweak at all. The tweak felt unnecessary for her ult when her bolts are seriously bad and mind control is horrible without full voice chat :/

 

The ult scaled well in damage for high levels but I mostly used it for teamwork. T4->teammate down? absorb over him whilst others revive, or protect targets etc.

 

Never felt insanely powerful, like I did with Trin's ult before it got "reckoned" into the ground :/

 

Needs to be changed back in my opinion

[[DE]Momaw]

My preferred solution for Absorb is that it doesn't cost energy per damage absorbed, rather it costs an increasing amount of energy per second the longer you sustain it.

[AureusVulpes]

Damage redirection can be made to work fine with creative applications, such as AoE damage absorption (like Absorb) or adding a multiple to absorbed damage. Not an issue at all.

 

Absorb's damage is fine; it's the 'energy consumed' to 'damage dealt' ratio which is now broken upon scaling. That is a secondary issue to the 'friendly fire' energy drain, which can and should be addressed at the same time.

 

This thread also has nothing to do with PvP balance, and DE has already illustrated they can balance PvP skills separately.

 

Well, when you compare the fair fight between a Frost wielding a Boltor Prime and a Level 40 Heavy Gunner (about the same number of bullets to kill, standing still), then you redirect all of the heavy gunner's bullets (which are dealing ~100 dmg/bullet), you quickly find out it would take that heavy gunner about 3 minutes to suicide, vice the 5 seconds boltor prime takes. The point here is without amplification, enemy self damage or friendly fire as a mechanic is absolutely SAD.

 

I only listed PvP because it, by proxy of damage-versus-HP-ratio has a similar problem. Yes, DE has been working a large number of special calculations as fixes into the mission, but simply balancing incoming versus outgoing damage to be proportionate (and by proxy, HP values) would make everything for DE moving forward SO MUCH EASIER, balance wise.

[Llyssa]

The funny part is, considering the over-nerf to launcher ammo, the best bet for damage output is to fire your launcher at a nyx. This likely exacerbates the problem.

 

I think a proper answer would be to scale it slightly--the basic idea is a pretty solid concept that avoids abuse, but tweaking the numbers a bit(how much damage triggers drain, and how much drain is done when triggered) would help.

 

Consider: as minor a change as halving it to 4 energy per, and doubling it to 2k done, would make it 4x as efficient(so your scenario would burn only 40 energy, instead of 160), and if paired with efficiency mods, would drain as little as 20 energy in your scenario.

 

This slight number tweak would make it leaps and bounds better, but would maintain the abuse avoidance.

 

I'd advocate for no less than 4 energy per unit, and no more than 5k per trigger. That would be 10x as powerful as the current, and in example scenario, would be a mere 16 energy, and only 4 energy at max efficiency.

[(PSN)iBoiz]

My preferred solution for Absorb is that it doesn't cost energy per damage absorbed, rather it costs an increasing amount of energy per second the longer you sustain it.

yeah! this would be a perfect balance. Fixes the issue of afk that De wanted to address 

[Llyssa]

To be honest I didn't find Nyx stupid strong before the tweak at all. The tweak felt unnecessary for her ult when her bolts are seriously bad and mind control is horrible without full voice chat :/

 

The ult scaled well in damage for high levels but I mostly used it for teamwork. T4->teammate down? absorb over him whilst others revive, or protect targets etc.

 

Never felt insanely powerful, like I did with Trin's ult before it got "reckoned" into the ground :/

 

Needs to be changed back in my opinion

I'm guessing you never watched her solo wave 45 in the t4 void by pressing 1 button.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Llyssa

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

My preferred solution for Absorb is that it doesn't cost energy per damage absorbed, rather it costs an increasing amount of energy per second the longer you sustain it.

I think we would better off if they went back to before the buff.  Activating Absorb should cost 100 energy. It should have a set duration, that can be increased with mods.

 

The only difference should be that you can deactivate it early with no extra benefits.

[bl4ckhunter]

absorb needs to change, i don't even play nyx but i want to be able to use aoe weapons/amprex without having to worry about draining or not energy from allies.

[Llyssa]

Perhaps a better concept would be charging energy based on damage output?

 

This would be a way to normalize it--the damage of 10 seconds untouched would be a base value of 100 energy, and then whatever multiple of that amount of damage that would be achieved is what multiple the energy should cost.

 

Examples(not using in-game numbers, but rather arbitrary numbers to illustrate the point--scale them as percentages):

So, if, say, it will do 100 damage base after 10 seconds untouched, that would cost you 100 energy. If you cancel it at a point where it would do 50 damage, that would cost 50 energy. If you cancel it at a point where it will do 300 damage, that will cost 300 energy.

50d=50e

100d=100e

300d=300e

 

This is, of course, using a linear scale--it might be preferential to use an exponential scale, something like energy*10^damage%:

50e=31d(10*10^0.5)

100e=100d(10*10^1)

200e=1000d(10*10^2)

 

This way it would both scale AND have limitations. This probably needs some tweaking(I'm not sure doing 10x as much damage should only double the cost), but something in that vein would allow both control and input without overwhelming players OR afk farming.

[notionphil]

absorb needs to change, i don't even play nyx but i want to be able to use aoe weapons/amprex without having to worry about draining or not energy from allies.

 

Yes, even outside of scaling/balance changes, the key issue here is that other players should not be able to drain Nyx's energy pool (intentionally or mistakenly)

[Marthrym]

The increase in energy consumption based on damage absorbed in a game where the enemy scaling is bonkers and your teammates have a direct effect as well is one of the worst ideas the devs ever had.

Nyx is (I refuse to give up on her but you're really not helping dear devs...) my main frame. The FIRST frame I got to rank 30. Even before my Excalibur Prime.

Mind Control only works in solo or with teammates you play with often enough to develop coherent teamwork and reflexes, so no randoms. Maybe at extremely high levels for heavies. So pretty rarely used unless you farm Void endless content. \o/

Her 2 is... not even worth mentioning to be honest. Pure waste of energy. And by waste of energy I mean it's not even worth the energy you spend pressing the number 2 key.^^'

Her only true "viable" abilities were Chaos and Absorb. Now Absorb is just like Mind Control. And that is of course before the enemy scaling gives you the middle finger.

 

So basically all that is left is Chaos. Pun intended. You can (and WILL...) get trolled just as much as you can (and DO^^) troll enemies when you play Nyx now. Who needs shock/leech Eximi when your team and scaling are here to do the job for them?^^'

 

P.S : My opinion is obviously biased, so don't take my post too "seriously" if you are a defender of the current absorb mechanic. Then again, who in their right mind would defend such a train wreck... See? Totally biased, dammit.^^'

Edited September 4, 2014 by Marthrym

[IAmTheWar]

So I very recently did Xini with Nyx, and found it rather difficult after...15? 16? Two things immediately came to mind:

 

- The Nova I was with have a negative power strength build, and could notice how quickly my energy was deteriorating even with 375 energy and Streamline/Fleeting.

 

- Either I'm going nuts, or the disruptors are now able to drain energy even if I'm in my bubble. Constantly having issues with even something so simple as to raise energy out of nothing. Couldn't bail out at wave 20 and failed the mission needless to say.

 

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Absorb only output the damage enemies (and allies) pour into the bubble? To my understanding, this is...or was a legitimate and viable ability for endgame content (unless people back then were complaining about it being OP along with M. Prime?)

 

Someone shed some light on me regarding this, as much as I love using her, it's incredibly arduous using her now in T4 and derelict. That's not to say she's viable regarding Mind Control and Chaos, but Absorb is also used to cover teammates when they're reviving downed allies.

[Macdermott]

So...what you're all saying is, don't bother claiming the nyx I just made in my foundry until she's fixed?

 

Bummer :(

[Llyssa]

So...what you're all saying is, don't bother claiming the nyx I just made in my foundry until she's fixed?

 

Bummer :(

No. What we're saying is that you need to be very judicious with when and how you use absorb.

 

Unless you only built it to AFK farm with absorb up, in which case, yeah, your abuse has been blocked. Sorry.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I think we would better off if they went back to before the buff.  Activating Absorb should cost 100 energy. It should have a set duration, that can be increased with mods.

 

The only difference should be that you can deactivate it early with no extra benefits.

+1

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

So...what you're all saying is, don't bother claiming the nyx I just made in my foundry until she's fixed?

 

Bummer :(

Yes, use someone else.  Loki and Rhino are probably the only frames you need.

[Demon-King-Lamb]

And a well modded Gorgon can build up 30k dmg with only 30 rounds. I've tested that with a buddy of mine. We used to farm Def missions until this latest tweak for Absorb. And since I can't use Energy restores during the use. The ult is quite exhausting now.

[fatpig84]

You are late to the party brah.

I had fun shooting my speed trigger boltor prime into Nyx absorbs XD

[(PSN)MoriartyHaaaiii]

Check out this possible fix: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/304831-an-actual-fix-for-absorb/

[Methanoid]

drop 1 or more team energy restores and just let your teammates do their thing.

[DrBorris]

It just needs a max time limit like Mirage's Prism. Make Absorb have a max duration if 10 to 15 seconds, unaffected by power duration, and still drain energy per second. And of course have it so it can be canceled at any time. This way you can't go AFK. Nyx's beauty was in endless scaling (like Loki), a nerf was necessary, but removing her scaling was not.

[notionphil]

It just needs a max time limit like Mirage's Prism. Make Absorb have a max duration if 10 to 15 seconds, unaffected by power duration, and still drain energy per second. And of course have it so it can be canceled at any time. This way you can't go AFK. Nyx's beauty was in endless scaling (like Loki), a nerf was necessary, but removing her scaling was not.

 

I totally agree with this. Or have energy cost just scale absurdly over time, like 40e/second after the first 10 sec.

 

EDIT- assuming you don't mean that there is a cost per damage absorbed still...

Edited September 5, 2014 by notionphil