Hindsight Bias And What It Means In Judgment Of Enemy Abilities

[Naftal]

I would like someone to tell me how to dodge Switch Teleport from Grineer Commander.

"OMG, you were fighting the Grinner, you should have expected one!" is not the solution.

I agree. I haven't found a good way to counter their switch teleport either. I think they should replace the stun from it with speed reduce debuff or something.

 

So, between spinning forever to avoid/counter hooks/cheap mechanics and removing these mechanics entirely... Isn't there a middle ground? Always extremes. Always... *sigh*

You don't have to spin forever. Just spin when it's needed and use whatever method you want to kill the enemies.

[43Emprah]

My only issue is Ancients having the ability to grapple me from extreme distances, and THROUGH objects that should block their line of sight/attack.

[Loki-Laufeyjardottir]

I'm sorry to say this Valafor but all of your posts in this thread to mee seem like petty excuses to cover up the fact that you are bat the game and are frustrated because you don't know why you can't beat these enemies/mechanics/abilities. You make some valid points namesly that there are many situations where what to do would seem obvious however there are other variables that contribute to why it would have been difficult to get out of but at the end of the day the enemies in this game have these abilities because it adds a certain challenge to the game as otherwide it would get boring because killing a bunch of enemies programmed to simply shoot and take cover is not challenging enough to the majority of players and so these abilities are put in place, admittedly most of them are annoying however the game also has a number of mechanics, tactics, abilities etc. that are in place to help you to counteract these abilities/mechanics.

 

There is not a single enemy mechanic or ability that does not have some sort of prevetative or countermeasure. Sure you cannot prepare for every situation but most situations are preparable for by utilising mods and abilities, mechanics and weapons. An enemy grappled you? Prevent it using Iron Skin or by blocking or activating absorb, spin attack, sound quake, radial blind, rhino stomp, etc. You are getting gangraped by chargers? Use AOE or some ability to GTFO like Radial Blind, Disarm, (Switch) Teleport, Rhino Stomp, Sonic Boom, Decoy, Bladestorm, the list goes on and on and on. Too many enemies hot on your &#!? Use the Mutalist Quanta or Choas to make them attack each other, or use bastille/vortex to immobilise them etc.

 

Basically the only exeption to this are the Commando's with their Switch Teleport. This isn't as bad as you make it out to be seeing as in most cases you will have a team member to assist you unless you have either run off on your own or they have left you behind, either of these situations if your won fault. If you are playing solo then fair enough but this game is designed to be played with a team, sometimes you will get a bad team sometimes you will get a good one but on the whole it is a team game with mechanics and abilities designed to be utilised by the players to prevent these situations from happening or to assist you in getting yourself or a team member out of them.

 

TL;DR:

OP making petty excuses because he hasn't learned to utilise his arsenal. Your arsenal does NOT include just your weapons, sentinel/kubrow and frame, it means taking advantage of the mechanics put in place to assist you.

[DivisionByZero]

+1 for keeping topics like this active.

I can definitely tell this discussion is very related to my discussion about "Rhinos Everywhere" as a symptom rather than a problem. It looks like a lot of trolls piled on overnight. My guess is that there's a ring on 4chan misery-mongering (deliberately trolling and voting down good suggestions so Warframe will never be balanced). It's clear from how they speak that they are from 4chan - IMO Warframe would be better off if the 4channers were all thrown out.

Anyone else notice that the trolls always say "learn2dodge" "be more aware" yet they never provide any constructive comments or advice? all they say is "lol I'm pro and you're noob". Bear in mind that there's no proof that the trolls are anywhere near as good at Warframe as they claim.

With that aside, dodging and blocking in Warframe is grossly deficient and defective. The main problem is that dodging is based on key combos. Spin attack does a crouch+attack half the time. Roll-vaulting can be ergonomically infeasible (holding A and tapping Shift is painful, meaning that I can effectively only roll-vault forward or right). The obvious solution is double-tap movement key to dodge, which I have just tested and can confirm that double tap on a movement key does nothing special.

Blocking is also trash. It requires Melee 2.0 (so you can't ranged fight). Reflex guard is RNG-based and can't be used while actively aiming, charging, or firing a ranged weapon.

Also, some Warframe abilities have no protection against knockdown.

Even if there are ways to use maneuvers to avoid enemy abilities, they should at the very least be clearly documented in the codex or even with pop-up/overlay warnings on the in-game UI. For example, suppose every time a scorpion/ancient was going to pull you, if a holographic overlay warned "Incoming pull - slide or press (some key combination) to block it". This would also prevent the common problem of being grappled from behind.

[Valafor]

I'm sorry to say this Valafor but all of your posts in this thread to mee seem like petty excuses to cover up the fact that you are bat the game and are frustrated because you don't know why you can't beat these enemies/mechanics/abilities. You make some valid points namesly that there are many situations where what to do would seem obvious however there are other variables that contribute to why it would have been difficult to get out of but at the end of the day the enemies in this game have these abilities because it adds a certain challenge to the game as otherwide it would get boring because killing a bunch of enemies programmed to simply shoot and take cover is not challenging enough to the majority of players and so these abilities are put in place, admittedly most of them are annoying however the game also has a number of mechanics, tactics, abilities etc. that are in place to help you to counteract these abilities/mechanics.

 

There is not a single enemy mechanic or ability that does not have some sort of prevetative or countermeasure. Sure you cannot prepare for every situation but most situations are preparable for by utilising mods and abilities, mechanics and weapons. An enemy grappled you? Prevent it using Iron Skin or by blocking or activating absorb, spin attack, sound quake, radial blind, rhino stomp, etc. You are getting gangraped by chargers? Use AOE or some ability to GTFO like Radial Blind, Disarm, (Switch) Teleport, Rhino Stomp, Sonic Boom, Decoy, Bladestorm, the list goes on and on and on. Too many enemies hot on your @$$? Use the Mutalist Quanta or Choas to make them attack each other, or use bastille/vortex to immobilise them etc.

 

Basically the only exeption to this are the Commando's with their Switch Teleport. This isn't as bad as you make it out to be seeing as in most cases you will have a team member to assist you unless you have either run off on your own or they have left you behind, either of these situations if your won fault. If you are playing solo then fair enough but this game is designed to be played with a team, sometimes you will get a bad team sometimes you will get a good one but on the whole it is a team game with mechanics and abilities designed to be utilised by the players to prevent these situations from happening or to assist you in getting yourself or a team member out of them.

 

TL;DR:

OP making petty excuses because he hasn't learned to utilise his arsenal. Your arsenal does NOT include just your weapons, sentinel/kubrow and frame, it means taking advantage of the mechanics put in place to assist you.

 

The thing is i do not suffer from these problems, as I play Loki and I am permanently invisible either way, but the lack of empathy in any players. Yes I am complaining about these BS enemy attributes, and perhaps I should have said improve rather than remove in the title, but saying "it is possible to dodge this so therefore you suck" even if it requires inhumane amounts of reflexes is the most important part. I am less complaining about these BS enemy abilities and more trying to give some awareness to other players that when they say "you suck because you didn't dodge" you are giving off expectations that a person can not always accomplish. 

 

The reason why I highlighted this in bold is because this is exactly what I am talking about. You have given me to options to A. Play Rhino or B. Predict you are going to be hit by grapple even if it is coming from behind me. Spin attacks, Soundquake, and blocking only work if you KNOW you are going to be grappled (unless you plan to stand there forever in Soundquake and Absorb or never stop spin attacking or blocking), but sometimes you don't know until you are actually grappled because they could be behind you or something, therefore boiling down to A. Play Rhino or B. Constantly spam Radibal Blind and hope you stop a potential grappler. So yes, while there are countermeasures, there are only two reliable ways to prevent it,, and soon after Excalibur's Radial Blind receives a nerf, only one. 

[Noble_Cactus]

What abilities are cheap? Grappling can be blocked and you can prevent yourself being dragged all the way to the enemy if you don't block it.

 

Not when a Scorpion reaches out in front of her and hooks you when you're standing right behind her. That happens far more often than you'd think, and it punishes you for using proper spacing/positioning to avoid an enemy attack. I'm sure it's an AI fluke but it should still be addressed.

 

 

I can definitely tell this discussion is very related to my discussion about "Rhinos Everywhere" as a symptom rather than a problem. It looks like a lot of trolls piled on overnight. My guess is that there's a ring on 4chan misery-mongering (deliberately trolling and voting down good suggestions so Warframe will never be balanced). It's clear from how they speak that they are from 4chan - IMO Warframe would be better off if the 4channers were all thrown out.

 

 

I don't think you understand what a 4chan is.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Loki-Laufeyjardottir]

The thing is i do not suffer from these problems, as I play Loki and I am permanently invisible either way, but the lack of empathy in any players. Yes I am complaining about these BS enemy attributes, and perhaps I should have said improve rather than remove in the title, but saying "it is possible to dodge this so therefore you suck" even if it requires inhumane amounts of reflexes is the most important part. I am less complaining about these BS enemy abilities and more trying to give some awareness to other players that when they say "you suck because you didn't dodge" you are giving off expectations that a person can not always accomplish. 

 

The reason why I highlighted this in bold is because this is exactly what I am talking about. You have given me to options to A. Play Rhino or B. Predict you are going to be hit by grapple even if it is coming from behind me. Spin attacks, Soundquake, and blocking only work if you KNOW you are going to be grappled (unless you plan to stand there forever in Soundquake and Absorb or never stop spin attacking or blocking), but sometimes you don't know until you are actually grappled because they could be behind you or something, therefore boiling down to A. Play Rhino or B. Constantly spam Radibal Blind and hope you stop a potential grappler. So yes, while there are countermeasures, there are only two reliable ways to prevent it,, and soon after Excalibur's Radial Blind receives a nerf, only one. 

The lack of empathy I can understand and I am guessing that is why you brought up hindsight bias and I can also understand not being able to predict every possible situation in a game but at the end of the day for me this makes the game more interesting, it can be annoying but it also makes it interesting. I was simply suggesting that nearly every frame has some ability that can help you to deal with a situation and I unlike others by saying something like "It's your fault for not dodging" I was attempting to highlight some of the things that can be used to PREVENT the situations or some to counteract them such as using radial blind whilst entering a room would usually give you ample time to find and kill the targets that could put you in these situations. Or you a good example of a more unorthodox method is Banshee's Sonar ability as it will stun an enemy for about 2 - 3 seconds as they enter its area of effect. Iron Skin or Decoy or Molt are good ways of preventing being grappled, Invisibility/Smokescreen prevents most of the abilities that can target, you can use Pull or Crush to incapacitate an enemy. Using Bladestorm will prevent you from being targeted for a time.

 

I was simply trying to point out ways of preventing and counteracting these situations. The the way you have worded your original post and most of your posts in the thread make you SEEM like you are making excuses and so I posted appropriately.

[fatpig84]

Abilities are now cheap to spam for a reason, my excal and loki are always on top of the "abilities used" tab due to how often I press 2 and 4 respectively. And because of that I rarely deal with special abilities. :3

 

But having said that some extras will be nice.

Like when you are getting dragged, you can still shoot your gun at the target (if you are using explosives, ahah sucks to be you) to break the link and recovery if you kill him.

[LukeAura]

I was attempting to highlight some of the things that can be used to PREVENT the situations or some to counteract them such as using radial blind whilst entering a room would usually give you ample time to find and kill the targets that could put you in these situations.

Preventative measures are generally less enjoyable and entirely less engaging to players. Preventing bad effects from occurring is not as good as actively countering them.  

 

[Loki-Laufeyjardottir]

Preventative measures are generally less enjoyable and entirely less engaging to players. Preventing bad effects from occurring is not as good as actively countering them.  

 

I am aware of that but it is also no fun enering a room and getting grappled then gangraped by chargers so being able to prevent it is better then dying.

[Lost_Cartographer]

I really don't see the argument against grapples here.  If you see a scorpion or an ancient you should know, without a doubt, that 100% of the time they'll open up with a ripline.  And just like everything else in game, their aim will be PERFECT in determining where you'll be if you keep moving in a straight line long enough to intercept that cord.  It's quite ironic, but the AI's perfect aim (sans built in weapon inaccuracies) makes them easily predictable and thus exploitable.

 

Ancients stand far taller than the rest of the infected.  They also have a telltale screech to warn you of their presence.  Scorpions are a fair bit harder to pick out, admittedly.

 

Finally, knockdown recovery and knockdown prevention mods minimize the risks of being grappled.  The ripline's range is just exact for dragging a warframe the full distance before they can get up.  I know it's not ideal to have to sacrifice redirection or continuity or like mods for niche defenses, but if they're really this much of a problem, consider it.

 

...Provided One can even get the KD prevention/recovery mods in the first place.  They are a rare as a pleasant sunny beach full of hot (demon) babes in Hell.  "Hot" in this case may be literal, but nothing can be too easy.

[Valafor]

I really don't see the argument against grapples here.  If you see a scorpion or an ancient you should know, without a doubt, that 100% of the time they'll open up with a ripline.  And just like everything else in game, their aim will be PERFECT in determining where you'll be if you keep moving in a straight line long enough to intercept that cord.  It's quite ironic, but the AI's perfect aim (sans built in weapon inaccuracies) makes them easily predictable and thus exploitable.

 

Ancients stand far taller than the rest of the infected.  They also have a telltale screech to warn you of their presence.  Scorpions are a fair bit harder to pick out, admittedly.

 

Finally, knockdown recovery and knockdown prevention mods minimize the risks of being grappled.  The ripline's range is just exact for dragging a warframe the full distance before they can get up.  I know it's not ideal to have to sacrifice redirection or continuity or like mods for niche defenses, but if they're really this much of a problem, consider it.

 

...Provided One can even get the KD prevention/recovery mods in the first place.  They are a rare as a pleasant sunny beach full of hot (demon) babes in Hell.  "Hot" in this case may be literal, but nothing can be too easy.

 

The thing is they can grapple you THROUGH other enemies, it is not completely far-fetched to believe you can be sneaked up on, and if you are grappled there is nothing to you can do.

[lordhalo]

I wish they gave the ancients a better animation/reasonable cord thing, not just rip it from the scorpion it looks weird and out of place.

[Lynxh]

I don't agree with some of the basis you use of why x is bad and thus should be altered. Opinions and all that.

Hindsight bias is a real thing, but imo you are overreaching it to suit your needs.

 

Most of your complaints don't even have to do with the abilities themselves but rather the fact that there is often so many things going on that effectively dealing with them becomes hard. And I certainly attest to that. But if the abilities themselves were the issue you'd have the same problem in low numbers. But you won't because at that point avoiding/negating them becomes cake.

 

Fact, most enemy abilities can be avoided/negated.

(if this wasn't true we would always be hit by them, and I do use the word "most" specifically)

 

Fact, being able to avoid an enemy ability depends on the situation*priorities, player skill etc

(we don't always have the tools available or made earlier decisions that prevent us from doing so. This includes player error)

 

Fact, sometimes there is no way to avoid an enemy ability because of the situation.

(This should speak for itself)

Edited September 24, 2014 by Einde

[Xana_Skullsunder]

To hell with all the "git gud" ******s. The knockdown is obnoxious and a poor attempt at adding challenge to a game where you're otherwise playing an untouchable god of destruction. It's DE's power-fantasy design style that made knockdown 'needed' in the first place. They tried to fix a problem, and introduced another in the process.

[DrBorris]

Umm, enemies are supposed to be enemies, not bowing to our will. If 20 scorpions surround me, they deserve to knock me down. If infested all gang up one and pin me in a corner, they deserve to kill me. When a bunch of muralist fart, it would be a god idea to run. They are what prevents (sort of) someone mowing through all of the enemies (on the note of mutalists, change their damage type to gas so they only bypass shields when they proc). I think this is how difficulty should be in Warframe, the enemies as a whole are difficult, not individually. It is not hindsight bias, you SHOULD have done something to avoid a "cheap" attack. If you are being spam knocked down by heavy Grineer, take a step back, the entire point of the attack is to get you out of their more vulnerable zone. We as the Tenno are not entitled to get whatever we want. We have to work around their attacks, if their attacks are successful, good for them. It is funny how the other factions show more teamwork than the almighty Tenno. Well, except for commanders, their teleport is bull.

[Eyeless]

This has erupted into just another

 

"There's just no way to compensate from all these angles! <Insert reasons for why the oppositions reasoning is flawed>"

 

"Sure there is! Just do <repeats flawed/vague reasoning> or you're wrong! Even if there's merit, it's just not an issue!" 

 

With the few gems in here willing to try and find a middle ground, but it's all for-naught, because their posts are lost in the flaming and the arguing.

 

 

The cheap enemy mechanics are an issue, but they aren't as hefty a concern in the more heavily played areas as suggested in my opinion.  

 

Your frame does actually get some invincibility frames for rolling/side-dodging and backflipping. Some powers grant I-Frames as well, and blocking is always a viable option when you know it's going to happen. 

 

This is where the people arguing that this isn't an issue's arguments lose some credibility. The enemy AI in Warframe are omnipresent, we aren't. 

 

 

We don't know where and when every single damn grappling enemy or knockdown heavy unit is going to pop up. There's plenty of instances I've managed to roll through easily 5 Ancient grapples in quick succession only to get dragged off by one that had run up directly behind me even after checking my '6 not even two seconds ago. 

 

There are plenty of times in Survival runs especially where the enemy spawns and positioning just didn't work out in my favor and I as on my @$$ for a good 10 minutes more than I would have preferred. 

 

The Grineer Commanders are another mess entirely, as they can appear from any angle even after you check for the 5th time and don't even need to be near you to teleport you, which ends in an unbreakable and badly animated 'Wha?' stun gesture. Or I think it does, I've avoided long-winded runs with Grineer Commanders like the plague because of how rage inducing it is with squishier frames or when you're too far in to afford holding still. 

 

(It's been 3 months since I've seen a Grineer commander, that's how determined I've been to avoid them, so things might have changed. Can anyone confirm?)

 

 

The Anti-Moas and Knockdown Moas can make one pretty salty, but I find them a bit easier to deal with than all the other cheap gimmicks the enemies of Warframe throw at you.

 

 

The point being, at 'End Game' or long winded Survivals and Defenses, these cheaper enemies are going to make up the majority of what we contend with. We aren't able to stop ourselves from being surrounded, we don't have eyes in the back of our heads and it's impossible to avoid every single kick in the knees thrown at us. 

 

We need less attacks and enemy abilities that slap the control from our hands with less bandaid mods to address the issues. The mechanics need fleshed out and a more balanced medium met, but DE is stubborn and the issue has been talked to death. I don't have much faith that this is an issue that'll get resolved anytime soon, if at all. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by Hastur609

[DJ_Vauban]

There are mods like Handspring that may help you if you're knocked down.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Einde
Removed image.

[Noble_Cactus]

 

But having said that some extras will be nice.

Like when you are getting dragged, you can still shoot your gun at the target (if you are using explosives, ahah sucks to be you) to break the link and recovery if you kill him.

 

Ooh.

 

This.

 

This is a good idea.

 

-

 

I'd like to see Handspring worked into the base moveset for all Tenno. As in, it would become a standard game dynamic. If you get knocked down, press Jump to spring back to your feet. But you have to hit Jump right before you hit the ground, or within a certain window of time before you fall flat on your face/back. In beat-em-ups, brawlers, and fighting games, this is called "teching." It's engaging because it requires players to actively time their button presses. If successful, they are rewarded with a slight advantage over the enemy that tried to disable them. If not, then they don't get to thwart the enemy and they have to deal with a crowd of mobs when they wake up.

 

In addition to the innate knockdown tech, we could have the ability to roll on the ground. If you're on your face/back, press a direction + jump or shift and your character will roll themselves a short distance in the direction you pointed (forward/back/sides). This dynamic could open up ideas for melee enemies. What if they could attempt to do a finisher on you when they knock you down? You'd have to roll out of the way (or even parry!... somehow) to avoid eating big damage. When you pop back up, you can kill said enemy as he/she is recovering from the whiffed finisher.

 

Just tossing ideas out there. This certainly isn't the first time I've seen them on these forums, and hopefully, this won't be the last time.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Naftal]

While it would be nice to be able to do some reactive actions to counter some things, these threads always start with the premise that "knockdown is OP and you can't dodge them" which is completely false.

[merryfistmas]

Knockdowns really aren't hard to dodge at all. Even when you're completely surrounded, as long as your keep moving, sliding, spinning, and not standing in an open area full of grineer, there's no reason to get knocked down or hooked often.

 

I agree that knockdowns are poorly implemented, but not because they're too difficult to dodge.

[bl4ckhunter]

knockdowns and pulls might be dodgeable but INVISIBLE and STACKING damage resist and energy leech auras with an huge aoe and that can make your energy go in the negatives? almost complete damage resist to all kinds of elements except one WITHOUT A SINGLE WEAK SPOT? yes in this game there are a lot of cheap abilities that need a rework

[Vargras]

Hallowed Ground laughs at knockdowns. Also:

(It's been 3 months since I've seen a Grineer commander, that's how determined I've been to avoid them, so things might have changed. Can anyone confirm?)

 

 

The Anti-Moas and Knockdown Moas can make one pretty salty, but I find them a bit easier to deal with than all the other cheap gimmicks the enemies of Warframe throw at you.

Grineer Commanders actually seem to be quite rare now. I occasionally see them during Grineer defense alerts, but never really see them otherwise.

 

Anti-MOAs still show up in droves though.

[RealPandemonium]

The weenie brigade makes another appearance!  

 

This game has a multitude of overpowered options to abuse.  You shouldn't have trouble with any content.  If you're repeatedly failing missions, you need to rethink your strategy and/or improve your habits.  Or, get the tools that will help you succeed (god knows we have those.)

Edited September 23, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Tar_Spit_Fire]

blocking is always a viable option when you know it's going to happen. 

uhm... no? since the weapon swapping speed is stupidly slow and awkward in this game.. or unless you waste some of your mod slot and points for the auto parry mod*which is pretty focking useless*, there is no way you have enough time to switch to melee and block a surprise grapple hook enemy that spawns randomly from behind. *Even with a speed holster aura, unless you are talking about 4 speed holster aura but what are you an idiot? why use a stupid aura like that?*