Shields Are Bad.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Low shield frames are usually covered either by having powerful/health restoring casting skills or high armor (and I'm almost certain Slash damage is affected by armor--My Ember can lose 100+ HP on a single level 35 slash proc, while my Valkyr loses 15 HP or less). That's the balance. But when a frame that's not high armor gets shot and a slash proc happens the player needs to have Vitality or they will die within three procs. That's bad design when there are hundreds of enemies surrounding the player. A band-aid mod would be better than what we have now, but the best solution would be to encourage a gameplay system that allows players to be able to survive level 35 enemies without dodging every single hitscan attack. If a band-aid mod is necessary on almost all low-health builds for levels that are still in the starchart, it probably should be a core mechanic.

Slash damage itself is affected by armor...

But the Bleed Proc/DoT ignores armor values

From wiki: (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Bleed)

- slash

Slash Damage is one of the three physical damage types. It increases damage against Flesh and Infested enemies by 25%, but reduces damage against Robotic by 25%. Slash damage is affected by armor when present. While common on melee weapons this type can also be found on primary weapons. The Soma, for example, has all three damage types, with Slash being the highest.

Slash damage's unique status effect is Bleed: a DoT that inflicts 35% of your weapon or power's base damage per tick (7 ticks in 6 seconds). This damage bypasses shields, and is not affected by armor or enemy resistances. Multiple instance of Bleed may be stacked on the same target.

[00zau]

How about shields limit proc damage to a percentage of your health while they remain up? No 50+ damage tics while your shields are up.

 

Hell, just make it so that you can't be reduced below 1 hp while your shields are up. Mag with ~1200 shields and 200 health? As long as you can keep your shields up at all times, you won't die from slash/toxic procs.

[Personwithhat]

Well, ok, i run a mag and I have noticed that ridiculous procs that bypass your shields.

its most annoying when you have 1k shields after using a polarize, and then sit and watch your hp trickle down to 0 in 5 or so seconds, and you can't do ANYTHING.

 

maybe , instead of nerfing it, add a option to allow elemental proc evasion? i mean for example, if a person catches fire he shouldn't really be gasping , he'd drop and roll.

 

or if the player was bleeding, can't he activate some "emergency proc regen" that has a cooldown to use, (is free and unlimited) , kind of like a revive only on yourself and much faster, so if you can spare the time you could do it.If you can't then you were probably going to die anyway.

 

I mean tenno in armor suits shoudl have at least some puncture defence seriously >.>

 

also mag needs buffs, particularly on crush and bullet attractor, i feel like they ain't even close to as useful as shield polarize, at least shield polarize is like a spammable shield XD

[Jin_Lightning]

Here's an interesting idea for solving this.

 

First, shields should be an impassable barrier, until the shield value runs out, and exposes your health. At this point, your armour comes into play. The higher your armour value, the less effective procs against you are. Bleeds are less spikey, Weakness damage penalty is reduced, and so on. This would balance shield frames vs armour/health based frames. 

 

Shield frames would have an amazing defense against procs, but once the shield comes down, your lackluster armour and health (unless modded) comes into play, allowing severe procs to be inflicted upon you, if you don't let your shields recharge.

 

Armour/Health-based frames don't really rely on shields too much, and use their high armour values to reduce procs against them in maybe both duration and effectiveness,

 

The only proc that should slip through shields should be Toxic IMO.

 

I think this would help establish what type of defenses each frame has, without being brutal.

 

What do you guys think?

 

-Jin

Edited October 10, 2014 by Jin_Lightning

[Personwithhat]

its a bit to OP with mag though, i mean her polarize can amp up the shields up in 1 second constanlty (like a lot) and anything that DOES get past it rarely can just be blocked via my carriers guardian :P

 

the only downside is that late game the shields get 1 shottedetc. (even 1 k) , and quite frankely her hp is terrible......

 

so mb scaling to how much  hp you have compared to shielding?so higher shields = better proc resistance with shield +worse withought?

 

i mean if someone is allinto shields and didnt buff vit the vit should be weaker and shields stronger....

[Eyeless]

What do you guys think?

 

-Jin

 

I think you're on to something here. Providing a higher use for both Redirection AND Steel Fiber of all things! 

[Jin_Lightning]

Thank you, sir. Now armour would be more than just damage reduction. It fits the theme of the game to.

 

-Jin

[Marthrym]

Thank you, sir. Now armour would be more than just damage reduction. It fits the theme of the game to.

 

-Jin

I like this. But then armor numbers and effects need a complete overhaul. It's ridiculous to have 15 points of armor. Or 50 for that matter. Scaling just laughs at these armor values. No wonder only "Steel Fibered" Valkyrs can go the distance. She's the only frame with truly viable armor. Even Rhinos, Frosts and Saryns (supposed to be heavily armored frames) aren't viable here. What's up with that?^^'

 

Also, what about the other frames? Those that don't focus on either shields or health+armor? They would be "meh" everywhere. Which translates by "inferior" in the end, because the ones who focus on only one of the two buffers would get stronger bonuses just with that single buffer than these "meh" frames with both buffers combined.^^'

This would require heavy tweaking as well IMHO.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Marthrym

[Eyeless]

You're right Marthrym, here's to hoping DE sees something to consider in this thread.

[Doomclaaw]

The  only problem I have with the way procs work, is that you can mod for resistance to certain elemental procs if you so choose (although I doubt many would bother, the option is still there) but there are no resistances to the physical procs, and in the fairness of balance there should be. Now those mods can be far less powerful than the elemental ones, but I still think they need to be in game. I see the problems the op discussed, having suffered them many times myself especially on my volt, but I don't think there needs to be ways to negate the procs entirely. Like someone said, it is a counter for shield heavy-low hp builds, as it should be, but there needs to be a buffer available as a tradeoff (sacrifice mod slots and points for a resistance mod). 

[HAYABU5A]

its almost like you dont want trinity, oberon and team health restore to have jobs

they will be homeless on the streets hanging out with the life strike gang while the upper class shield mafia gets the best gigs

[Xana_Skullsunder]

its almost like you dont want trinity, oberon and team health restore to have jobs

they will be homeless on the streets hanging out with the life strike gang while the upper class shield mafia gets the best gigs

 

Less that, more "I don't want to need healing after every single time I get shot because bleed is a bastard."

[Eyeless]

Less that, more "I don't want to need healing after every single time I get shot because bleed is a bastard."

 

^ Nailed it

[Naftal]

Less that, more "I don't want to need healing after every single time I get shot because bleed is a bastard."

It's ok, you don't get bleed procced after every single time you get shot. Not even so often that this exaggeration would make sense as a joke.

[Azawarau]

Less that, more "I don't want to need healing after every single time I get shot because bleed is a bastard."

Except that you dont get it every time

 

I dont think even 5% of shots actually make my frames bleed

[Jin_Lightning]

its almost like you dont want trinity, oberon and team health restore to have jobs

they will be homeless on the streets hanging out with the life strike gang while the upper class shield mafia gets the best gigs

That's why I said that frames focusing on heath and armour get resistances. The advantage of shields in my idea is that they block all procs (minus knockdown and stagger) but the tradeoff is that shields need to recharge. Frames like Trinity and Mag with their shield replenishing abilities will be exceptional here.

 

Frames focusing on health and armour can rely in Life Strike, and/or the two healing frames, while enjoying proc resistance playing off their armour rating.

 

No one is being 'left out in the cold'.

 

Except that you dont get it every time

 

I dont think even 5% of shots actually make my frames bleed

Now that's true. But in higher up level when it DOES happen, it's pretty brutal, you know that. My idea will help balance that out for frames with either specialization.

 

-Jin

Edited October 11, 2014 by Jin_Lightning

[Azawarau]

That's why I said that frames focusing on heath and armour get resistances. The advantage of shields in my idea is that they block all procs (minus knockdown and stagger) but the tradeoff is that shields need to recharge. Frames like Trinity and Mag with their shield replenishing abilities will be exceptional here.

 

Frames focusing on health and armour can rely in Life Strike, and/or the two healing frames, while enjoying proc resistance playing off their armour rating.

 

No one is being 'left out in the cold'.

 

Now that's true. But in higher up level when it DOES happen, it's pretty brutal, you know that. My idea will help balance that out for frames with either specialization.

 

-Jin

I just exited a grineer alert (Lvl 44 grineer) where enemies didnt bleed me once

 

As a melee frame running with a non disarm loki i can safely say i took alot of shots to the face

 

In the new event i became curious and stayed in heavy enemy fire for 20 or so seconds without a single bleed proc

 

I cant believe bleeding is an issue this way

[Otaiken]

I just exited a grineer alert (Lvl 44 grineer) where enemies didnt bleed me once

 

As a melee frame running with a non disarm loki i can safely say i took alot of shots to the face

 

In the new event i became curious and stayed in heavy enemy fire for 20 or so seconds without a single bleed proc

 

I cant believe bleeding is an issue this way

 

Interesting... during the even (that summons hordes of Desert Skates) I got hit by massive Bleed proc thrice (probably those skates).. killed me once and took 500 of my HP those other two times. They weren't even focusing fire on me btw.. just random collateral damage.

 

Also, when standing in direct fire for 20 seconds I usually get procced more than once. So I guess it's RNG being RNG huh?

 

Not that I like the fact that my survival is very dependant on pure random chance. That's what makes it annoying. You can't really predict it, you can't really counter it (on shield frames) and you never know when it will get you. It's a S#&$ mechanic. Especially on Grineer.. cause they WILL hit you. Corpus I can kite, Infested too, Grineer.... not so much. I get enough RNG in my grind.

 

Anyway, from my experience I get hit by bleed the very instance I leave cover against Grineer. There, I counter your anecdotal evidence by my anecdotal evidence. We're back to zero, lets start again.

 

Armor/HP dependant frames get to reduce the proc damage. It's only fair that shields get to prevent it. Shields are about prevention after all... about preventing damage to that fragile HP. Also, HP + armor has amazing synergies with both frame mods and melee. You can turn energy to HP, you can turn HP into energy and armor makes this conversion even more efficient. Shields synergize with absolutely nothing, which is strange since they're usually the main form of defence for caster frames.. so synergies between energy and shields would make a lot of sense.

Edited October 11, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Azawarau]

Interesting... during the even (that summons hordes of Desert Skates) I got hit by massive Bleed proc thrice (probably those skates).. killed me once and took 500 of my HP those other two times. They weren't even focusing fire on me btw.. just random collateral damage.

 

Also, when standing in direct fire for 20 seconds I usually get procced more than once. So I guess it's RNG being RNG huh?

 

Not that I like the fact that my survival is very dependant on pure random chance. That's what makes it annoying. You can't really predict it, you can't really counter it (on shield frames) and you never know when it will get you. It's a S#&$ mechanic. Especially on Grineer.. cause they WILL hit you. Corpus I can kite, Infested too, Grineer.... not so much. I get enough RNG in my grind.

 

Anyway, from my experience I get hit by bleed the very instance I leave cover against Grineer. There, I counter your anecdotal evidence by my anecdotal evidence. We're back to zero, lets start again.

 

Armor/HP dependant frames get to reduce the proc damage. It's only fair that shields get to prevent it. Shields are about prevention after all... about preventing damage to that fragile HP. Also, HP + armor has amazing synergies with both frame mods and melee. You can turn energy to HP, you can turn HP into energy and armor makes this conversion even more efficient. Shields synergize with absolutely nothing, which is strange since they're usually the main form of defence for caster frames.. so synergies between energy and shields would make a lot of sense.

RnG must love me then cause bleeding is not an issue for me

[Jin_Lightning]

RnG must love me then cause bleeding is not an issue for me

I'm glad it's not, but the rest of us, it is. I hope you can understand out grievances about these issues. My idea can help everyone, including you.

 

-Jin

[Naftal]

I'm glad it's not, but the rest of us, it is. I hope you can understand out grievances about these issues. My idea can help everyone, including you.

 

-Jin

Speak for yourself and not for the rest of us.

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

[Brimir]

HP doesn't magically replenish itself if you take cover either.

 

On the other hand, there are Health orbs but no Shield Orbs and Health gets affected by Armour while Shields don't.

 

Health still wins, especially when you take stuff like healing abilities and mods like Lifestrike.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Brimir

[Naftal]

Health is our life force. The thing that keeps us alive.

 

Shields are just bonus layer that helps preventing hp damage.

 

Kinda like Quick Thinking, but that helps preventing the last hp damage that would kill you.

 

Poison damage and slash procs own shields. Energy drain and magnetic procs own quick thinking.

 

I really don't see what the problem is...

[Brimir]

Probably that Slash is the most common proc in the game by far, as well as the entire Infested faction essentially having access to Toxin.