Warframe Ability Mods: Coming Changes

[RadYogh]

We should be trying to get DE to allow us more overall customizability WITHOUT preventing anything we can do now.

Yeah, that's right. But making useless abilities more useful would be nice.

Most abilites aren't very useful without corrupted modules. Btw example with accellerating Molecular Prime shows that it is cool to be able to 'tweak' the way how abilities work... Slowing nova makes defense missions R-E-A-L-Y slow, but accellerating Nova makes first 5-15 waves a way less boring and slow!

[Ronyn]

We should be trying to get DE to allow us more overall customizability WITHOUT preventing anything we can do now.

 

But there is no point in nekros then. I don't get ppl who use nekros on defence/survival missions and doesn't constantly spam 3rd spell. 

Realy... Nekros is good only for one thing: stand still without shooting anything and constantly spamming 3rd skill. This is the best use for nekros. This is the way of TRUE Nekros!

See guys. That's the problem right there. This feels a lot like arguing over scraps instead of demanding we get a real meal.

 

If the only or best (as in the most useful according to the community) use for Nekros is just the guy who turns bodies into pinatas....

that is actually a pretty messed up frame who needs some work.

I don't agree with fighting to keep Nekros ability to be a one trick pony. I insist that DE make Nekros more than just that. Make him what he is meant to be. Customization comes from REAL options and multiple viable choices.

[Naftal]

Yeah, that's right. But making useless abilities more useful would be nice.

Most abilites aren't very useful without corrupted modules. Btw example with accellerating Molecular Prime shows that it is cool to be able to 'tweak' the way how abilities work... Slowing nova makes defense missions R-E-A-L-Y slow, but accellerating Nova makes first 5-15 waves a way less boring and slow!

Sure they should make some abilities better but this thread isn't about that.

 

I don't agree with fighting to keep Nekros ability to be a one trick pony. I insist that DE make Nekros more than just that. Make him what he is meant to be. Customization comes from REAL options and multiple viable choices.

Losing one mod slot doesn't remove the ability to be a one trick pony. It's just that the people who've put the most time and effort into polarizing their frames are losing options they have right now if they remove slot(s).

Edited October 18, 2014 by Naftal

[SoulSlayer1990]

thing that i find annoying is that we went from 0-30 to put in our forma... just not all that great considering imma have to relvl my frames

 

if you have over 8 polarities then u should get forma as compensation (not including ability)

Edited October 18, 2014 by SoulSlayer1990

[Gigatron-Prime]

I can definitively approve this change! I love it! So excited. When? When?

[SoulEchelon]

ROFL. Guy who can't even defend his position in proper debate asks opponent to learn debating tactics. Okay, I guess that was your attempt to leave in a huff after being shot down multiple times in a row. Good try.

 

Shot down? No one shot me down. The closest to a "shot down" was the person I was talking to way earlier in this thread, and even they understood that my post was an opinion. As for you, you've yet to give a proper rebuttal, and my statements before was, as stated, an OPINION anyways. It wasn't meant to be "shot down". I even stated my post was an opinion in my last post to that other person. All you've done so far is rant and try to look "cool" by saying ROFL this and THIS GUY that.

 You're not worth listening to if all you're going to do is that. I've debated with people on this forum far, FAR better than you. Suffice it to say, you're not worth it; especially when, again, there's nothing to argue about since my post was an opinion.

 

But yeah, good try trying to...do...whatever it is you were trying to do. If it was rile me up, then you failed. If it was making a point, then if your point was trying to sound "hip" while posting your opinions on a public forum, then I guess you succeeded? Congrats? *slow clap?*

 

Anyway it's time for us adults to go to work. Go ahead and post THIS GUY or ROFL again, see how many people care.

Edited October 18, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[NotoMaru]

...Only Stretch can be replaced here... Antimatter Drop could be useful but it is too hard to use, plus it will still be useless against highlvl enemies and with those you would use Dread (not sure it is possible to charge Antimatter Drop with arrows) or Ogris/Penta/Torid/... (they are doing AoE damage by default)

 

AMD is definitly not too hard to use give it a try and train it a bit, once you get used to it AMD will be fun to play with. Charging it and steer around corners etc. Zoom in, release AMD and charge it...charged shots from bows or lanka are possible and not that hard to use to charge AMD.

 

Greets

[TsundereHvyCruiser]

Take away just one slot and nobody has to be mad, except for OCD symmetry fanatics.

 

Better yet remove no slots and we can all add a Master thief or Handspring or even a Warm coat to our builds.

[Ronyn]

Sure they should make some abilities better but this thread isn't about that.

Aaaaand that is my problem with the line of thinking in it.

This thread is about holding to the ability to min/max around a broken system...

instead of just focusing on asking DE to fix the real problem here.

That is the point I keep making.

 

EXP:

It shouldn't take 9 mods to make desecrate awesome.

and Nekros should have more to offer than just desecrate. 

So why the heck are we worried about preserving these over specialized Nekros-desecrate builds?

We should be able to add the desecrate utility to teams, plus a lot more, in the new system...

if DE actually solves the real problems.

 

Losing one mod slot doesn't remove the ability to be a one trick pony.

A frame is a "one trick pony" when only one of it's abilities is useful.

The only thing that fixes that is for DE to make multiple abilities actually good.

Now a player may choose to only use one ability. The energy system is flexible in that way.

But that is from player choice, not because the frame only has one good one to use.

 

 

It's just that the people who've put the most time and effort into polarizing their frames are losing options they have right now if they remove slot(s).

That's a one sided point of view.

Whether a person looses or gains options in this new system depends on how many abilities they intended to slot.

If they wanted 1 or 0 abilities slotted then they loose options.

If they wanted 2 the new system offers the same amount of options as it was before.

If they wanted 3 or 4 abilities slotted then they GAIN options.

Note: That's mathematical fact, not personal opinion.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Ronyn

[Naftal]

Aaaaand that is my problem with the line of thinking in it.

This thread is about holding to the ability to min/max around a broken system...

instead of just focusing on asking DE to fix the real problem here.

That is the point I keep making.

 

EXP:

It shouldn't take 9 mods to make desecrate awesome.

and Nekros should more to offer than desecrate. 

So why the heck are we worried about preserving these over specialized nekros desecrate build?

We should be able to add the desecrate utility, plus a lot more, in the new system...

if DE actually solves the real problems.

 

A frame is a "one trick pony" when only one of it's abilities is useful. The only thing that fixes that is for DE to make multiple abilities actually good.

Now a player may choose to only use one ability. The energy system is flexible in that way.

But that is from player choice, not because the frame only has one good one to use.

 

 

That's a one sided point of view.

Whether a person looses or gains options in this new system depends on how many abilities they intended to slot.

If they wanted 1 or 0 abilities slotted then they loose options.

If they wanted 2 the new system offers the same amount of options as it was before.

If they wanted 3 or 4 abilities slotted then they GAIN options.

Note: That's mathematical fact, not personal opinion.

I really don't understand what you are trying to say...

 

The one ability builds will be just as OP with one less slot. We're just losing options.

 

We are worried about losing a mod slot on plenty of different frames and builds there are. If you don't use 1 ability builds, this doesn't concern you and you shouldn't be arguing.

 

Note: 1 ability builds require the most time and effort to maximize that build, because they have to put in more polarities to fit everything. That is a fact. That is not a point of view...

[Dalsio]

Will leveling abilities on warframes gain us mastery?

 

I surmised from the post that those who have already maxed ability mods will start with maxed ability levels; will we get the mastery from those pre-leveled abilities?

 

If we max leveled a frame, maxed it's abilities, and then sold that frame, will we have to get to lvl 15 again and level up their abilities from scratch in order to get the mastery from their abilities?

 

Is mastery on ability levels even a thought in the brainstorming room, or is it entirely out of the question?

 

What does this say about the equality of usefulness of abilities? Some abilities on a frame are more useful than others in any given situation (IE. Radial Blind vs. Super Jump, especially with the new directional melee); with all the abilities of a frame now available to it, will there be a focus on bringing those abilities that might be lacking to a place with more usefulness, either by direct buff, or complete overhaul?

 

Will there be a focus on a choice of which ability to use for any situation (meaning, any ability available is nearly as good in any situation, they all just do things in different ways IE. Radial blind vs. Radial Javelin), or will there be a focus on utilizing different abilities for different situations entirely (meaning one ability is suited for one situation where another ability is suited for another IE. Slash Dash vs. Radial Blind)?

 

Will there be new mods for specific abilities, similar to the ones teased about for specific weapons (as in, they will modify the abilities in more unique ways than simply incresed range or incresed damage)? Will the changes towards equalizing the usefulness of abilities be placed in these mods alone?

 

All in all, a good change (in the long run at least), regardless the answer to my questions (or in my opinion, anyone's questions). The questions are simply to know where the mechanics are going, what the devs are thinking about, and how smooth and pain-free the transition from one system to another will be.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Dalsio

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

Also note that on the Desecrate build, most players use Overextended which weakens all of Nerkos' other skills.  Sure, you can cast Soul Punch to knockdown, which is nice, but Terrify and Shadows will remain very underwhelming.  Worse yet, if you accidently cast Shadows you have now wasted energy and are stuck in the casting animation, whereas before it was impossible since it wasn't equipped.  The point is that when you optimize for a skill or skills you often handicap the rest.  Having access to them doesn't make them any better, so in reality they will be there just to clog up your ability screen.

 

As noted for console players using a controller, this can lead to excessive problems since many of us use the 'cycle power right/left' and a bumper to 'activate power' on targeted abilities (since using the touch pad while aiming is nearly impossible).  Now we have to cycle through more abilities, which will lead to many mistakes and make the controller even more difficult to use.  For reference, you cannot cast Soul Punch unless you have an enemy targeted.  Trying to aim and swipe at the same time is very difficult, especially if the target is moving.  Hopefully DE gives players a way to lock powers from being used because honestly I don't want SotD or Terrify active on my max Desecrate build (or maybe DE can actually balance them).

Edited October 18, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Pobstar]

NOTE: If you had already maxed or ranked Ability Mods, you will not be affected by this. This applies for newly acquired Warframes post Update 15.

 

 

Can I get some confirmation on this? If I have an unranked Ash but I have his ability cards maxed out he will have maxed abilities after the update automatically?

[Catray]

Nekros is a Nerf and refusing to use a single frame to reduce.
Not very, but not with the update that can be convinced it is said suddenly.

You should then update it the questionnaire.

[Ronyn]

I really don't understand what you are trying to say...

I'm saying stop worrying about preserving the builds we made to deal with the fact that most frames have several abilities that are sub par or useless and focus on getting DE to actually fix the sub par or useless abilities.

 

The one ability builds will be just as OP with one less slot. We're just losing options.

 

We are worried about losing a mod slot on plenty of different frames and builds there are.

And in each case-

The one ability slotted builds loose whatever that one combat option you got from that one extra mod slot was...

but gain whatever combat options from those 3 additional abilities.

If that one mod adds more use to your frame than 3 more abilities then there is an obvious flaw in the abilities.

 

And of course, we are gaining the new ability customization system which will add more options but that isn't really being talked about in this thread for some reason. It seems like it should be if people are going to make the claim of "loosing options".

 

If you don't use 1 ability builds, this doesn't concern you and you shouldn't be arguing.

That's just it. In some cases I do use one slotted ability builds because that is the best set up for certain frames in the current system.

I consider that an obvious design flaw and clearly not the devs intention.

 

 

Note: 1 ability builds require the most time and effort to maximize that build, because they have to put in more polarities to fit everything. That is a fact. That is not a point of view...

Agreed. But you also must acknowledge-

 

Whether a person looses or gains options in this new system depends on how many abilities they intended to slot.

If they wanted 1 or 0 abilities slotted then they loose options.

If they wanted 2 the new system offers the same amount of options as it was before.

If they wanted 3 or 4 abilities slotted then they GAIN options.

Note: That's mathematical fact, not personal opinion.

[Ronyn]

Also note that on the Desecrate build, most players use Overextended which weakens all of Nerkos' other skills.  Sure, you can cast Soul Punch to knockdown, which is nice, but Terrify and Shadows will remain very underwhelming.  Worse yet, if you accidently cast Shadows you have now wasted energy and are stuck in the casting animation, whereas before it was impossible since it wasn't equipped.  The point is that when you optimize for a skill or skills you often handicap the rest.  Having access to them doesn't make them any better, so in reality they will be there just to clog up your ability screen.

UNLESS the new ability customization system offers new utility to the abilities that you would normally not use because of the handicap.

 

And honestly I don't know how much concern I can have for "accidental" pressing of buttons. 

There are several ways around that. Though I always support options to disable, dial down, or turn off whatever powers we just don't want to use. 

Edited October 18, 2014 by Ronyn

[Naftal]

I'm saying stop worrying about preserving the builds we made to deal with the fact that most frames have several abilities that are sub par or useless and focus on getting DE to actually fix the sub par or useless abilities.

This is irrelevant to this thread. You shouldn't derail the discussion to another topic.

 

I'm not trying to argue against anything we're gaining in this update. I'm just arguing against the FACT that this will prevent our customization options, which seems surprisingly hard to explain to some people.

 

Agreed. But you also must acknowledge-

I don't know why you said the quoted part to me in the first place or why you are requoting it. That is obvious and I haven't said anything contradicting at any point.

[DJ_Vauban]

Ok, so to all of those who think there are only "press 4 to win builds" if they hear about players using only one power.

 

 

This is the melee build I run and I require all of them to be able to survive in the higher levels, How am I supposed to survive if I end up having one slot less? Good for you if you say "Oh snap, he uses handspring and enemy sense oh lol what an idiot, better be using all powers and keep spamming them." But that's not how i play the game, I do need them more than having 3 more powers that don't do anything later in the game. Bastille in this case is my "Holy sh*t" button to get out of sticky situations but that's about it. There are no mods whatsoever that enhance my bastille, it's merely a life saver.

 

If you remember that in one devstream, some people asked to be given an additional mod slot for ulitily mods, I kind of liked it but I also disliked it. The thing here is, DE said that if you wanted to use utiliy mods, you had to remove other mods instead, seems logical, but now, DE reduces the slots which also means they sort of go against their own words and leaves us there with only the most important ones and no ulitily mods

 

I think the main question here is, WHY are the slots being reduced?

 

I'll be honest, I would much rather have neutral abilities that every warframe could use.  Given that many veteran players have custom builds that use all 10 mod slots, this is actually a nerf and one that will cause a lot of problems from the reduced mod capacity and trying to fit exactly the right polarities onto a build.

 

While I understand the intent of this change, it is coming far too late and will incur many, many unforeseen problems when trying to fit mods into the reduced number of slots with existing forma'd polarity slots.  Also, this means there will be more points for fewers mods, so just as with melee stances, many forma will have been wasted with this new change in effect.

 

Also, pretty much this. The game has been out for quite a while now and a change as big as this should NOT be happening after being so long in action.

Edited October 18, 2014 by DJ_Vauban

[Ronyn]

This is irrelevant to this thread. You shouldn't derail the discussion to another topic.

This thread is DE saying they are changing the mod/power system.

This discussion is peoples responses to that change.

I'm very much on topic.

 

I'm not trying to argue against anything we're gaining in this update. I'm just arguing against the FACT that this will prevent our customization options, which seems surprisingly hard to explain to some people.

 

I don't know why you said the quoted part to me in the first place or why you are requoting it. That is obvious and I haven't said anything contradicting at any point.

Let me put it like this-

It's most accurate to say that our customization options are prevented in one regard while expanded in another regard.

If we are going to talk about what we loose without talking about what we gain ...

well I find that to be a conveniently one sided point of view as the end resulting amount of options should factor in.

[Ronyn]

Ok, so to all of those who think there are only "press 4 to win builds" if they hear about players using only one power.

 

This is the melee build I run and I require all of them to be able to survive in the higher levels, How am I supposed to survive if I end up having one slot less? Good for you if you say "Oh snap, he uses handspring and enemy sense oh lol what an idiot, better be using all powers and keep spamming them." But that's not how i play the game, I do need them more than having 3 more powers that don't do anything later in the game. Bastille in this case is my "Holy sh*t" button to get out of sticky situations but that's about it. There are no mods whatsoever that enhance my bastille, it's merely a life saver.

I'm following along with your point here and I see where you're coming from.

You should certainly be able to play a melee build if you want to.

but...How exactly is enemy sense required for this melee build?

 

Also note-

 

 I do need them more than having 3 more powers that don't do anything later in the game.

If those 3 powers don't do anything later in the game....

they are broken and need to be fixed.

 

 

I think the main question here is, WHY are the slots being reduced?

I do agree that is the right question to ask.

[Naftal]

Let me put it like this-

It's most accurate to say that our customization options are prevented in one regard while expanded in another regard.

If we are going to talk about what we loose without talking about what we gain ...

well I find that to be a conveniently one sided point of view as the end resulting amount of options should factor in.

The pros are irrelevant to the cons when all of them aren't affecting everyone. This shouldn't be a trade where DE takes some options away from us while giving us other options when they could just give us new options without taking anything away.

[Ronyn]

The pros are irrelevant to the cons when all of them aren't affecting everyone. 

By that same line of thinking one could say-

The cons are irrelevant to the pros when all of them aren't affecting everyone.

 

The reality is that this change won't affect everyone the same way.

For some it's pure positive, for some it's pure negative, for some it's a mixture.

So we can't color what happens to anybody on that list as irrelevant.

 

This shouldn't be a trade where DE takes some options away from us while giving us other options when they could just give us new options without taking anything away.

I think the operative question here is: WHY is DE making this a trade? Is it there some reasoning behind this choice?

Is this a balance issue: Will the new power augments give us access to more power, utility and options than we yet know? 

[Damuranashi]

Sounds great.

[Naftal]

By that same line of thinking one could say-

The cons are irrelevant to the pros when all of them aren't affecting everyone.

 

The reality is that this change won't affect everyone the same way.

For some it's pure positive, for some it's pure negative, for some it's a mixture.

So we can't color what happens to anybody on that list as irrelevant.

 

I think the operative question here is: WHY is DE making this a trade? Is it there some reasoning behind this choice?

Is this a balance issue: Will the new power augments give us access to more power, utility and options than we yet know? 

We can color the positive changes irrelevant to this discussion, because no one is arguing against them and no one will get hurt by them.

[DJ_Vauban]

How exactly is enemy sense required for this melee build?

 

 

It helps me to pin point enemies location in the heat of the moment and in general situations, what direction I should block and where I should attack next. Having only one single enemy shown on the mini-map is not really helping me there if it also just shows the closest enemy.