Clashing Ideologies In Gameplay Is Ruining The Game, Endgame Is Falling Further Away.

[(PSN)torvahn]

Hi, wall of text in coming, adhd generation scroll to bottom for tl;dr

Having patiently waited for a month or so now for the release of nullifiers and bombards I read the the hype, the drama, the tears, the whinging, the praise whatever group you associate yourself with I am aware. Having pretty much afk'd hours of t4 survivals now since their release it has become incredibly clear that their is a huge discrepancy in player ability across the board and it is doing more harm than good in regards to feedback and how DE balances the game, less dedicated players are being punished for what the hardcore players achieve and it is unfair for everyone.

You would have to be an absolute fool to disregard the potential of possible damage that warframes and weapons hold currently and I am certain the top tier PC guys are more than aware of the capabilities of certain frames synergy with weapons/abilities allowing numbers in the hundreds of millions and even into the billions. Should these stratagem become commonplace DE will be faced with damage 3.0 and if possible thats something I hope we could be avoided.

REP FARMING: A highly contentious issue among the community, On one side of the fence you have the run N gun purists who vehemently oppose the reliance upon warframe abilities and believe your weapons should be how you primarily dispose of your enemies.

Then on the other side of the fence you have players who maximise their load outs to its highest efficiency(in most cases not so much people have incredibly bad builds lol) in disposing of enemies through use of abilities that are in the game.

Now, lets be real unless you suffer from mental illnesses this can not be defined as exploiting, using radial javelin is not an exploit, what The syndicate system brought to the game was a huge evolutionary shift in playing the game, prior to this system being in place we never had any need to do it and I would venture to guess only the most informed players who understood the game knew of this levelling method.

I will agree with the run n gun purists that it has 'cheapened' the value of mastery rank and there are many mr15+ out there that are completely hopeless with their artificially gained rank but on the same hand arguments can be made how necessary a mastery system really is.

Either way it doesn't matter what side of the fence you sit on, DE is quite adamant in not wanting players to be forced into playing a certain way and given the changes and refinement to their syndicate system over time it is quite obvious that it was rushed content and with DE not even aware of their own game mechanics we have the current predicament that divides players on how the game "should" be played.

Easy solution on that regard stop caring what other people are doing and play at your own pace or find people who you enjoy playing with stop trying to decide what is and isn't legitimate, as long as it is not blatant bug abuse(limbo banish glitching) Efficiency is not exploiting, it is a legitimate method in any game, why do it that way when i can do it this way and save myself 100's of hours or why rush the game and become jaded because you excalibur'd to mr18.

I'm not defending either of them just play your own damn game and let DE assess the data and balance accordingly.

8 MAN RAIDS:

8 man raids sounds unbelieveably promising in terms of difficulty, however given previous examples of increasing difficulty(nullifiers and bombards are a joke) I can't help but think given the synergy among using 8 frames/guns with people you know it will be once again a poor attempt at end game content and all it will do will create even more of a divide, if having to use recruiting/alliance chat is worthy of getting nervousness i cannot imagine how horrible 8 man raids would be and the only challenge then would be dealing with the players rather than the content itself.

How can DE create endgame content keeping the top players quiet whilst giving something people to work for?

TIER 5 VOID KEYS, The ultimate endgame and a very simple equation, the chances of failing the mission far outweighs the chances of succeeding. There are a lot of incredibly talented people at DE no one would be dumb enough to dispute that but give them free creative reign to create the final tier of the void and really challenge us. I love the concept of 8 man raids but unless you have dedicated servers or something i can just see a huge mess on the way.

I personally am not privy as to what feedback DE takes seriously if at all but it just seems players are often chalked up as collateral because DE focuses on all the wrong things, i feel as of this current moment the game is in very good balance(still pissed off about the core nerf on t4survival, however you have to adapt and i will) DE can start focusing on bigger and better things then being caught in this cycle of nonsense because some dad gamers don't want the game to change.

I am really looking forward to this year of quality and i just pray to whatever god is out there that DE will focus on giving people something to work for while disregarding the outcries of ignorance and intolerance.

[armedpoop]

While I agree wholly with your stance on rep farming, I cant agree with T5 keys. That will only increase power creep. I mean this is DE we are talking about, T5 just means higher multipliers to enemy armor/health/shields.

 

Now on the other hand, I cannot wait to see how they attempt to balance 8 frames in one mission. Will be quite interesting to say the least.

Edited February 14, 2015 by armedpoop

[low1991]

How can DE create endgame content keeping the top players quiet whilst giving something people to work for?

^DE has to give a TRUE difficulty game mode, where it's similar to Crisis 2?

*Almost instant kill moves + 0 damage area with damageable spot opens after getting stunned?

[armedpoop]

^DE has to give a TRUE difficulty game mode, where it's similar to Crisis 2?

*Almost instant kill moves + 0 damage area with damageable spot opens after getting stunned?

as long as its ALMOST instant kill, thats great. Like guaranteed 90-95% damage. 

[Vesiga]

I hope there's gonna be dedicated servers just for the raids. Like how there is relays. 
a lot of people can barely host 3 people. 

[(PSN)torvahn]

While I agree wholly with your stance on rep farming, I cant agree with T5 keys. That will only increase power creep. I mean this is DE we are talking about, T5 just means higher multipliers to enemy armor/health/shields.

 

Now on the other hand, I cannot wait to see how they attempt to balance 8 frames in one mission. Will be quite interesting to say the least.

I believe the next tier of the void will break the mold of what currently is the void, I like to try and be optimistic, just when i see the blatant unjustified nerf on t4 survivals they keep their finger on the pulse by suprising everyone by releasing heat and cold mods as normal drops, in my opinion a great move on DE's behalf.

[PookieNumnums]

im also against the t5 keys. talk about unobtainable gear imbalances..

 

and then add in how rare it is to succeed and get the item of desire.. whoa.. if the rewards arent worth it, it wont get played.

 

eight man raids will be fine. and we will probably need some power creep to succeed but also some skill and smarts.

 

vindictus has eight man raids. played from 10-12' and didnt have issues finding games, lag wasnt too bad.

 

 

also it wasnt too long ago that they added t4 to the game. slow down brah haha.

Edited February 14, 2015 by T4LCOMX

[Cypress85]

8-frame raids will probably be conclave-restricted. 

[Vesiga]

8-frame raids will probably be conclave-restricted. 

They said it will be MR locked, and started saying around like 13, then joked about 15/18/19

[Kihana]

How can DE create endgame content keeping the top players quiet whilst giving something people to work for?

TIER 5 VOID KEYS, The ultimate endgame ...

 

That's what they said about T4.

 

No more Tower tiers please.

[(PSN)torvahn]

That's what they said about T4.

No more Tower tiers please.

t4 towers regressed to camping and farming cores, with the release of more powerful mods/weapons enemies became far too easy to deal with. It's natural progression, tier 5 is an easy choice. Edited February 14, 2015 by (PS4)torvahn

[GildedTuna]

I feel as though the end game is rather shallow. Newer players should not be on the level on a player that has been playing 1000+ hours. It makes sense that the newer player should have something to strive for. However, as it stands now the end game has just boiled down to doing T4s and farming rep. This is the end game at the moment, Newer players SHOULD be having problems with Tower 4s. Also, if a CASUAL player is having issues with it, it is because they're a casual. There is no real raid that can be done or challenging boss where you have to do patterns or anything. That being said I REALLY hope the 8 man raids change that.

[Kartumterek]

The only real issue is that DE gives in way too much to the player base and apparently doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to stick to their plan, and instead has backpedaled and become an enabler for the vast legion of entitled gamers that plague our game. So many features and modes in the game that just don't fit with the theme, the core concepts.

Waiting for the Warframe with rainbows, flowers, cute emotes, hugs, and ridiculously bright pastel colors to complete the descent into WarPonies.

[Monolake]

... 

 

with DE not even aware of their own game mechanics 

 

...

 

Key phrase there. 

[(PSN)torvahn]

The only real issue is that DE gives in way too much to the player base and apparently doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to stick to their plan, and instead has backpedaled and become an enabler for the vast legion of entitled gamers that plague our game. So many features and modes in the game that just don't fit with the theme, the core concepts.

Waiting for the Warframe with rainbows, flowers, cute emotes, hugs, and ridiculously bright pastel colors to complete the descent into WarPonies.

You're absolutely right about entitlement and it is infuriating when DE have these great ideas which are brought down en by DE's indecision and unawareness combined with dad gamers/entitlement which is the whole premise of this thread, every time they make progress they get brought/bring themselves down.

DE Needs to stick to their guns, unless it is completely game breaking disregard us plebs for awhile and take their own course of action, old jimmy and little billy need to let DE do their thing, in all honesty everything is rushed, syndicate, archwing, events because jimmy and billy think it is their birthright or something to receive new content with haste, all it's doing is damaging the game and band aid patch after band aid patch it gets worse and worse, but what do i know lol, 1200 hours, mastery 18, 1.4m kills.

Edited February 14, 2015 by (PS4)torvahn

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

As far as i'm concerned, the anti-T4 and anti-Rep have proven themselves to be the VERY VERY vocal minority. Their own topics contradict what they have to say and as far as i know they seek opposition for the sake of it. First they hated the Boltor and Soma users(Just a trope) and said we need to diversify our powers and not depend on our weapons as much. Now they say we shouldn't rely on our powers as much. They don't know what they want except to be on the opposite side. As i see fit, they're just scrubs who call any tactic "Cheap" or an "Exploit".

 

 

Look Torvahn, our very first run in T4 Surv together we went 85 minutes just to see what some of them were complaining about (Nullifiers and Bombards) and it was a COMPLETE over-exaggeration. As said before, basic tactics make it still a cake walk.

Edited February 14, 2015 by (PS4)kiddplay13

[MumblesMcphatty]

-snip-

 

You do realise that all the people who couldn't hack the intro of Bombards & Nullifiers aren't necessarily the same people who have a problem with rampant rep-farming and 4 spam on every PUG game they walk into these days - right?

 

There are very vocal people on both sides of both issues - you conflating them together into some mass 'other' doesn't make your point of view anymore relevant than theirs.

 

For the record - no problem with the new enemies here - if you wanna rep farm do it - but I would really like to be able to play a PUG round of anything without standing around watching an Excal hit 4. If it was purely a recruiting phenomenon it wouldn't be an issue - but it isn't - its endemic - and that is an issue.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

By trying to reduce arguments down to two sides, I believe you cheapen the ideas people stand for, which makes it more difficult to see their points.

If you simplify there's two sides to rep farming: pro and anti. But once you look into each side you see more.

Some pro people feel that rep farming is the closest Warframe's come to showing synergy between frames. Others consider it a way to reduce the grind so they can move onto other things without limiting themselves from a reward standpoint. And still others believe that much power is a deserved endpoint for the time they put into the game. Some believe it doesn't affect others, and therefore shouldn't matter.

On the other side, some anti people are pure "run n gun" purists like you said, but nowhere near all of them. Some believe gameplay is trivialized when a player can press one button to win (this is also apparently DE's standpoint if you read the Vivergate thread). Others believe it's the rewards that are trivialized, when the best way to get them is to not play the game. Still others think it's boring. And some are angry that after six days of playing players are passing them in MR because they continue to take trips to Draco.

I'm not really trying to push my side here--I think I've done it enough but too much of the community is entrenched on the issue. But my point is that you can't solve the problems if you don't understand each side.

[(PSN)resnor]

I really hope 8 man raids aren't locked to below MR 13.  I'm currently an 11, and I've put probably 500 hours or so in.  I've done probably 8 frames and I don't know how many weapons.  Anyways, my point is, I enjoy playing the game, but I'm not consumed with ranking every single thing in the game.  It takes quite awhile for me to go up one mastery rank now, and I can see it taking months for me to get to MR 13.  I prefer getting frames I think I'll enjoy, and using weapons that interest me.  I'm not terribly interested in being forced to grind to rank, just to get in the raids.  I'm more than capable of holding my own in T4s with my MR 15+ friends.

Edited February 14, 2015 by (PS4)resnor

[Institute-Marksman]

'ENDGAME'

[(PSN)torvahn]

By trying to reduce arguments down to two sides, I believe you cheapen the ideas people stand for, which makes it more difficult to see their points.

If you simplify there's two sides to rep farming: pro and anti. But once you look into each side you see more.

Some pro people feel that rep farming is the closest Warframe's come to showing synergy between frames. Others consider it a way to reduce the grind so they can move onto other things without limiting themselves from a reward standpoint. And still others believe that much power is a deserved endpoint for the time they put into the game. Some believe it doesn't affect others, and therefore shouldn't matter.

On the other side, some anti people are pure "run n gun" purists like you said, but nowhere near all of them. Some believe gameplay is trivialized when a player can press one button to win (this is also apparently DE's standpoint if you read the Vivergate thread). Others believe it's the rewards that are trivialized, when the best way to get them is to not play the game. Still others think it's boring. And some are angry that after six days of playing players are passing them in MR because they continue to take trips to Draco.

I'm not really trying to push my side here--I think I've done it enough but too much of the community is entrenched on the issue. But my point is that you can't solve the problems if you don't understand each side.

I understand the two sides very well, i used whatever means necessary to get to where i am today and I am friends with people who are completely against the whole notion of rep farming because they feel it's cheap but this method has existed since interceptions were released, DE unintentionally created a system that drastically increased the reliance upon warframes, before this whole thing with "press4towin" thing started do you even remember what dominated the forums? "omg nerf boltor to OP cheapens mastery rank, mr3's should not outdamage a mr10 because of broken weapon" the @(*()$ boltor prime overpowered lmfao and now they have moved on to going after players who aim for efficiency, everyone involved needs to back the F*** up and worry about their own accounts. Most normal players just go with the flow and keep an eye on the 'meta' if you could even call it that in warframe as it's a pve game in all reality, but you have these select entitled overly concerned players who care too much and want the game to stay in their comfort zone because they resent change and progression, more motivated individuals breeze past them and they become jaded because they spent all that time on sechura and with the syndicates creating a new age in the game they either adapt or they incessantly whinge on the forums.

I play how I wanna play, I never take corrosive projection off any of my frames, in my eyes not a big deal, but to some it's a cardinal sin i'll rock up to sechura to forma frames and get raged at for not running esiphon or something useful because corrosive is useless against infested apparently, people just care way too much what others are doing and need to stfu and keep to themselves because its ruining the game.

[TennoPain]

WF never had endgame its a grind game deal with it.

[vaugahn]

I understand the two sides very well, i used whatever means necessary to get to where i am today and I am friends with people who are completely against the whole notion of rep farming because they feel it's cheap but this method has existed since interceptions were released, DE unintentionally created a system that drastically increased the reliance upon warframes, before this whole thing with "press4towin" thing started do you even remember what dominated the forums? "omg nerf boltor to OP cheapens mastery rank, mr3's should not outdamage a mr10 because of broken weapon" the @(*()$ boltor prime overpowered lmfao and now they have moved on to going after players who aim for efficiency, everyone involved needs to back the F*** up and worry about their own accounts. Most normal players just go with the flow and keep an eye on the 'meta' if you could even call it that in warframe as it's a pve game in all reality, but you have these select entitled overly concerned players who care too much and want the game to stay in their comfort zone because they resent change and progression, more motivated individuals breeze past them and they become jaded because they spent all that time on sechura and with the syndicates creating a new age in the game they either adapt or they incessantly whinge on the forums.

 

Woah there buddy. That's a lot of assumptions you're making.

 

It's easy to demonize everyone you don't agree with, to try and write off their motives as selfish or resenting progress, and while there might be some people who actually are selfish and do resent progress, that's not everyone. 

[(PSN)SofeSNBR]

Dont know about T5 keys, it would add whole 2 extra layers of grind, while we should remove about 10 layers of it. Im also very afraid how they are going to balance 8-man raids, since enemies can barely withstand 2 frames or even 1, how they are going to balance 8 of us?

 

There gotta be some conclave limit or it  is just enemies can survive planetary explosion and will one shot you by just looking at you. Shield drone flies by you and your warframe gets heart-attack and dies. Im probably one of few members here who is actually dreading 8-man raids rather than hyped about those.

 

Rep farming is one thing what ive never understood, why do rep farming and then go on other missions, when you probably gain said rep max by just doing those other things? Especially after they halved daily max rep.

[cyrus106]

Hi, wall of text in coming, adhd generation scroll to bottom for tl;dr

Having patiently waited for a month or so now for the release of nullifiers and bombards I read the the hype, the drama, the tears, the whinging, the praise whatever group you associate yourself with I am aware. Having pretty much afk'd hours of t4 survivals now since their release it has become incredibly clear that their is a huge discrepancy in player ability across the board and it is doing more harm than good in regards to feedback and how DE balances the game, less dedicated players are being punished for what the hardcore players achieve and it is unfair for everyone.

You would have to be an absolute fool to disregard the potential of possible damage that warframes and weapons hold currently and I am certain the top tier PC guys are more than aware of the capabilities of certain frames synergy with weapons/abilities allowing numbers in the hundreds of millions and even into the billions. Should these stratagem become commonplace DE will be faced with damage 3.0 and if possible thats something I hope we could be avoided.

REP FARMING: A highly contentious issue among the community, On one side of the fence you have the run N gun purists who vehemently oppose the reliance upon warframe abilities and believe your weapons should be how you primarily dispose of your enemies.

Then on the other side of the fence you have players who maximise their load outs to its highest efficiency(in most cases not so much people have incredibly bad builds lol) in disposing of enemies through use of abilities that are in the game.

Now, lets be real unless you suffer from mental illnesses this can not be defined as exploiting, using radial javelin is not an exploit, what The syndicate system brought to the game was a huge evolutionary shift in playing the game, prior to this system being in place we never had any need to do it and I would venture to guess only the most informed players who understood the game knew of this levelling method.

I will agree with the run n gun purists that it has 'cheapened' the value of mastery rank and there are many mr15+ out there that are completely hopeless with their artificially gained rank but on the same hand arguments can be made how necessary a mastery system really is.

Either way it doesn't matter what side of the fence you sit on, DE is quite adamant in not wanting players to be forced into playing a certain way and given the changes and refinement to their syndicate system over time it is quite obvious that it was rushed content and with DE not even aware of their own game mechanics we have the current predicament that divides players on how the game "should" be played.

Easy solution on that regard stop caring what other people are doing and play at your own pace or find people who you enjoy playing with stop trying to decide what is and isn't legitimate, as long as it is not blatant bug abuse(limbo banish glitching) Efficiency is not exploiting, it is a legitimate method in any game, why do it that way when i can do it this way and save myself 100's of hours or why rush the game and become jaded because you excalibur'd to mr18.

I'm not defending either of them just play your own damn game and let DE assess the data and balance accordingly.

8 MAN RAIDS:

8 man raids sounds unbelieveably promising in terms of difficulty, however given previous examples of increasing difficulty(nullifiers and bombards are a joke) I can't help but think given the synergy among using 8 frames/guns with people you know it will be once again a poor attempt at end game content and all it will do will create even more of a divide, if having to use recruiting/alliance chat is worthy of getting nervousness i cannot imagine how horrible 8 man raids would be and the only challenge then would be dealing with the players rather than the content itself.

How can DE create endgame content keeping the top players quiet whilst giving something people to work for?

TIER 5 VOID KEYS, The ultimate endgame and a very simple equation, the chances of failing the mission far outweighs the chances of succeeding. There are a lot of incredibly talented people at DE no one would be dumb enough to dispute that but give them free creative reign to create the final tier of the void and really challenge us. I love the concept of 8 man raids but unless you have dedicated servers or something i can just see a huge mess on the way.

I personally am not privy as to what feedback DE takes seriously if at all but it just seems players are often chalked up as collateral because DE focuses on all the wrong things, i feel as of this current moment the game is in very good balance(still &!$$ed off about the core nerf on t4survival, however you have to adapt and i will) DE can start focusing on bigger and better things then being caught in this cycle of nonsense because some dad gamers don't want the game to change.

I am really looking forward to this year of quality and i just pray to whatever god is out there that DE will focus on giving people something to work for while disregarding the outcries of ignorance and intolerance.

No more void tiers. Tier 4 was a failure, T5 will be too