Paris Prime Has 30 Arrows?

[DoomFruit]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

So how, then, can I carry a full load of Latron ammo and a full load of Angstrum ammo, or a full load of Dread ammo and a full load of Tysis ammo, but I can only carry one half a set of Angstrum ammo and half a set of Dread ammo if the two are together?

 

This makes no sense at all.

[_Absolom_]

So how, then, can I carry a full load of Latron ammo and a full load of Angstrum ammo, or a full load of Dread ammo and a full load of Tysis ammo, but I can only carry one half a set of Angstrum ammo and half a set of Dread ammo if the two are together?

 

This makes no sense at all.

You see Ivan, when you load rockets into bow...

[somethingextra]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

I can't say this is sensible. In the example, supposedly we are keeping a similar 'momentum' by having two straws to siphon from, despite a drastic decrease in maximum. This can run in the reverse light, with the maximum being so reduced as the output is being doubled.

But the output isn't being increased at all, we cannot simultaneously 'drink' from two weapons in this game. We are only able to use one of the weapons at a time, and the other sits uselessly until it is switched to. All the player gets out of this is a handful of ammo to work off of for both weapons; that's just a minus.

[Gelkor]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

 

But 30 isn't 72/2, 36 is. o.O

[Lynxh]

I can't say this is sensible. In the example, supposedly we are keeping a similar 'momentum' by having two straws to siphon from, despite a drastic decrease in maximum. This can run in the reverse light, with the maximum being so reduced as the output is being doubled.

But the output isn't being increased at all, we cannot simultaneously 'drink' from two weapons in this game. We are only able to use one of the weapons at a time, and the other sits uselessly until it is switched to. All the player gets out of this is a handful of ammo to work off of for both weapons; that's just a minus.

 

You can take this all the way to the ammo pickups/ammo caps of weapons, which like they admitted last Devstream, needs some attention at some point. ATM it's not a high priority, and while I agree it's not that much of a problem, it's another one of those things that is on the "eventually" list of things DE hasn't fully worked out since days of old.

 

I really want to nominate our current ammo system and all it involves as one of the QoL things to get addressed this year. It's been long overdue since closed beta. I don't mind DE going full ham on the ammo sharing take on things, but I do hope that if they do they make it systemic*or not at all* rather then one off like it is now. And rather then splitting the ammo in two, actually make you draw from the same pool at an appropriate rate for the weapons used. But I'm sure that any change is a ways away :P

Edited March 2, 2015 by Lynxh

[Deus_X_Machina]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

I respectfully disagree and think this decision was chosen ... poorly.

 

As someone already pointed out, the juice box getting smaller when two straws are in it is illogical.

 

Also: If I have a Rifle, Shotgun, etc. with me, I have full Ammo for Main weapon and secondary weapon.

If I use a Sniper weapon, I get REDUCED Ammo - AND have to SHARE it. At once two negatives because of weapon choice.

 

As the Panthera recently demonstrated, it is possible that a weapon uses more than one shot for a shot. Why not use that system for secondaries that should have reduced ammunition?

And it would be SO simple:

 

1) Compare drop probability between Sniper Ammo and Secondary Ammo. [Example: For each Sniper Ammo pack on average 4 Secondary Ammo packs drop]

 

2) Calculate equivalence of Sniper shots to Secondary shots. [Example: 1 pack with 10 shots to 4 packs with 20 shots, that means 10 shots to 80 shots, that means 8 shots of secondary ammo equal 1 shot of sniper ammo].

Thats the number of shots one shot of the secondary weapon (Castana, etc.) will use.

 

3) Calculate how much ammo you have to give the player so that he has it equal to before

[Example: Castana would need 16 Shots in Magazine and 240 shots max Ammo, with that it would be exactly equal to now, without ammo overlap]

 

4) Done. Easy enough. All systems for that are in place. All numbers for the calculation should be avaiable for you (DE). No more shared ammo, all secondaries use secondary ammo,

Secondary ammo dropping more often doesnt give a secondary high power weapon more ammo than it would with it using sniper ammo drops.

All solved.

 

 

[This is just another hint that "someone" doesn't like slow firing weapons]

[The3doM]

frankly saying, the current "system of ammo" is bs :)

[MeetTheJoves]

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

So your solution for this problem is to sacrifice damage (due the current nature of the mod system requiring you to stack +damage and +multishot regardless of your build), resources (spent on restores) and convenience (hunting for ammo pickups) in order to enable this combo? Do you honestly believe a player would opt to do this instead of just choosing a different weapon? No. They would not. It's bad design, punishing for no reason. Very few Primary/Secondary combos have this problem and it provides no benefits over those that don't, only a penalty.

Edited March 2, 2015 by MeetTheJoves

[Coatduck]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly.

Apple juice though, right?

And the straws are siphoning off into bowls?

Okay I think I understand now.

[GunDownGrace]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

yep,i never had a problem with it myself..im not too fond of castanas in general,they are basically the function equivalent of remote triggered landmines

 

so i usually use abit more advantageous of a secondary that doesnt use the same ammo...for example ive got an acrid with the perrin sequence mod on it,very powerful,and does the job

Edited March 2, 2015 by GunDownGrace

[SigweardStoneFist]

But 30 isn't 72/2, 36 is. o.O

The system is just weird...

 

Magazine size of the secondary weapon also plays with it.

[Stormandreas]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

The logic of it still doesn't make sense. 

Things like the Castana's, Angstrum, and even the Penta and Ogris, are SPECIALIST weapons, not SNIPER weapons, meaning that if we want to use a sniper, we're screwed. I like using my Snipetron Vandal with my Angstrum, but because of the ammo change, I can no longer do this, and its a completely unreliable system. Why should sniper users have to suffer ammo restrictions because they also want to use a specialist type weapon?

This isn't fair on those who want to use 2 weapons that use Sniper ammo. We have 2 totally different weapons, but, because 1 has been restricted in its ammo cap, the one that should have 200 rounds, now only has 30. I don't see the logic with this.

[Llyssa]

The ammo max for launchers really SHOULD be increased to 72, so all sniper weapons are equal.

[Azamagon]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

I ... really have to bite my tongue when replying to this.

 

If I disagreed? Yes, very much so. Why not fix the ammo-affected weapons like you did with the Panthera? Consume X amount of ammo per shot, but still drain from their regular ammotype (Rifle for Penta/Ogris etc, Pistol for Angstrum/Castanas). Regardless, I still think the ammonerfs where too harsh, for ALL the weapons, but mostly so for the Castanas.

 

I would like to say more but I'm not gonna, as it will just get me banned. Just this final thing: DE, you really, really, REALLY need to become more professional when you deal with numbers...

Edited March 3, 2015 by Azamagon

[Koler93]

I would say that it could stay this way.

 

There are to big adventages of shared ammo pool:

 

With Trick mag you can have 57 ammo on any type of launcher weapon (57 ammo on ogris and penta istead of 25)

 

Ammo mutation mods can restore ammo to yours primary weapon - You have one free mod slot in your Paris prime, Penta, Ogris.

 

But to be honest we have 4 ammo pools:

Sniper/ shotgun/ rifle/ secondary

 

I completly dont understand why secondary weapon have to use sniper ammo.

 

Castanas are the weakest syndicate weapon with the lowest ammo pool, for some unknown reason they cant damage nullifers and the way they bounce from his field is just ..

I could swear that bounced castanas have higher velocity that throwed ones and there is no way to even scratch nullifers with them..

Edited March 2, 2015 by Koler93

[direcyphre]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

That may seem logical in some senses, but I suppose most are under the impression that the majority of the time you are using a secondary because you've run out of ammo for your primary, or it is something with an already small ammo pool. So from a more fundamental point of view, secondaries should really always be pulling from another pool; unless of course the intent is to restrict all high-damage weapons to a set amount so that a person essentially couldn't equip to explosive weapons, for instance. Even then, it would make more sense to at least increase total ammo capacity as a result.

[CoreMatte]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

 

B...But Lotus, we have room for 2 juice boxes.

[AM-Bunny]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

 

The logic of two straws drawing from the same juicebox is fine. The issue that's being debated is that somehow adding a second straw halves the size of the original juicebox in addition to being an secondary drain.

 

Why don't we just say, when Excalibur is equipped with a Shotgun, his maximum energy gets cut in half. It makes an equal amount of sense, but because energy orbs drop and energy restores can recover energy quickly and often, this is an ok decision. 

 

I appreciate the responses, Rebecca, I do, but it's really frustrating for me that this could even be perceived as an acceptable outcome.

[BrazilianJoe]

The logic may be a juice box with a finite max volume suddenly has two straws drawing from it's contents instead of one - so we split the contents evenly. What currently stands is it is by design - if you disagree with this, that's fine, but remain respectful and understanding that a design decision can be debated, but may not change.

All things considered, at least in my experiences, ammo capacity is a system that can be actively 'defeated' with the use of restores, mods, and the active slaughter of enemies and collection of the rather abundant ammo drops.

 

This logic does not make sense because:

 

We routinely carry two juice boxes, one for each weapon, when they drink different flavors of juice. There has never been a problem in that. 

 

We can carry a 'heavy ammo' juice box, be it small or big, along with a juice box of any other flavor. 

 

It stands to reason that boxes seem to be roughly the same size, but what changes is how much ammo each can carry based on ammo size. Ergo, bigger ammo = less ammo in the box. In some cases though, there is a large juice box and a small juice box. 

 

Worse still, whenever there are two different weapons which drink from the same juice flavor, the Tenno carries for *some reason* the SMALL juice box instead of the large one. Despite the fact that it is strong enough to carry two juice boxes, as evidenced in other loadouts. 

 

It's perceived as a bug by the community and this is time and again brought up.

 

I call it 'defective design' because the code is 'working as intended'. But it's a bad implementation. 

 

Rebecca, I ask you the crucial question:

 

"What kind of GOOD thing this design brings forward to the player community?" 

 

My own answer to the question is: NOTHING. 

 

This design is defective because it does not bring anything good to the table. Instead it unnecessarily nerfs some loadouts, removing choice from the player. 

 

You should either have separate buckets for primary and secondary (to keep it balanced), or just add up the buckets of both weapons if they use the same ammo type. The latter could open up builds to buff the max ammo of one weapon only to use the ammo in the other weapon, so it's a bit exploitable. 

 

But keeping buckets separate for primary and secondary weapons is doable. You could make that when both weapons use the same ammo, the ammo pickups load the equipped weapon first, and only start replenishing the other weapon when the ammo is maxed on the equipped weapon.

[ArbitUHM]

Isn't it true though that if you have two weapons that use sniper ammo and you get a sniper ammo pickup you're effectively getting double ammo e.g. +10 ammo for your Dread and +10 ammo for your Castanas? That seems like a more reasonable explanation for halving your ammo supply rather than this juice box stuff, because as people have already mentioned, it only makes sense if all your ammo is consistently drawn from a single box. For example, if carrying a Dread and a Lex Prime gives me 72 sniper ammo and 210 secondary ammo, then swapping out the Lex Prime for a Castanas should remove the 210 secondary ammo and give you another 72 sniper ammo. Making both the Dread and Castanas draw from the same ammo pool of 72 means you lose your 210 secondary ammo, effectively halving your overall carrying capacity. 

 

If getting a sniper ammo pickup doesn't in fact give you +10 ammo for both your primary and secondary, then it's screwed up... more than it already is... and needs a big rework.

 

IMHO, all this ammo management stuff isn't very fun and you can sidestep it all with ammo restores anyway. Things are getting really convoluted with sniper ammo functioning as launcher ammo. I'd totally be in favor of omni-ammo pickups (or just primary and secondary ammo types) that just restore a flat percentage of your max ammo.

[cl37us]

I feel that the 'juice box' logic is flawed, 2 things drawing on the same source should not reduce its overall capacity.

 

To me it should work as follows:

 

I have space in my ninja backpack for some primary ammo and secondary ammo reserves. Looking at the Paris Prime and the castanas separately my backpack can fit 72 spare arrows and (I think) 30 charges for the castanas. If the ammo pool is to be combined then I should have a total pool of 102 units which both can draw from.

 

I appreciate that this is by design but it feels like a bug to me and my solution is not to burn through extra ammo restores but to avoid using the combination of weapons that create this issue.

 

As this is my first post I want to add that overall I love this game. I also love the open nature of DE's dev streams and the inclusion of loads of community feedback via these forums in the game's evolution. Sure there are some bugs and you can't please everyone but I, for one, am really impressed by the efforts of everyone at DE.

 

Thanks and keep up the good work :o)

[SigweardStoneFist]

I feel that the 'juice box' logic is flawed, 2 things drawing on the same source should not reduce its overall capacity.

 

To me it should work as follows:

 

I have space in my ninja backpack for some primary ammo and secondary ammo reserves. Looking at the Paris Prime and the castanas separately my backpack can fit 72 spare arrows and (I think) 30 charges for the castanas. If the ammo pool is to be combined then I should have a total pool of 102 units which both can draw from.

 

I appreciate that this is by design but it feels like a bug to me and my solution is not to burn through extra ammo restores but to avoid using the combination of weapons that create this issue.

 

As this is my first post I want to add that overall I love this game. I also love the open nature of DE's dev streams and the inclusion of loads of community feedback via these forums in the game's evolution. Sure there are some bugs and you can't please everyone but I, for one, am really impressed by the efforts of everyone at DE.

 

Thanks and keep up the good work :o)

 

Sadly not possible without the game bugging out.

Then we need a new ammo drop for arrows or something.

[MrStrangerPL]

Btw, why castanas use sniper ammo? Do they look anything close to an sniper bullet or an arrow? Also this is the first time I see someone caring about Castanas.

 

Also juice box logic. Let me get it straight. We pick up a normal rifle, normal pistol. Cool. 2 juice boxes. We pick up, Shotgun, castanas. Also cool. Again 2 boxes. Then, we pick up sniper rifle/bow, and castanas/angstrum. 1 juice box, that gets cut in half. And that is, apparently, also cool. Well... Who's the genius that figured it out again?

 

And by the way. Ammo restores doesn't grow on trees you know. Not everyone is a DE.

 

Anyway, I like where this thread is going. Maybe we'll receive a response, why one arrow also drains 1 castana, and vice versa, while also cutting the ,,juice box'' in half.

 

(I should stop edit... But this one is good!)

You know what would answer all your problems? Angstrum is an explosive launcher. Castanas also explode. You really should add... LAUNCHER AMMO! Seriously. Ogris and Penta. Do they look anything close to a sniper rifles? ,,We don't want to. Too much programing.'' Well, S#&$. That's the one, real solution for this problem. You don't want to add another ammo to the pool? Get rid of shotgun. If a damn ROCKET LAUNCHER is in the same ammo pool, as bow, shotgun could easly be in rifle pool.

Edited March 2, 2015 by MrStrangerPL

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

Launcher ammo was a thing, then they decided to shrink the pool so that launchers and arrows and snipers all use the same ammo pool.  I've had a problem with this for months, when I tried to bring my Angstrum and Vectis into the same match.  Drew was in that thread, I think there was more than one mention that it's "not a bug, it's a feature."

 

I gave up at that point.  The developers have clearly indicated that this decision is the one they're going with, so I bring two different weapon types, and basically don't use explosive secondaries.  If I do, it's in conjunction with an automatic rifle or shotgun, just to be sure. :/

 

If someone in De chose to make it this way, I'd really like to hear their logic, because it makes no rational sense to say "you have two juiceboxes of the same flavor, but you're only allowed to drink from the smaller one and you have two straws."

Edited March 2, 2015 by (PS4)IkariWarrior83

[Magnar21]

Best solution to the whole ammo issue would be to create it so that ammo is restored to each weapon based on variables set to each weapon. Not this atrocious system where single-shot weapons (latron prime) are horrifically more efficient than weapons with subpar and/or vastly inferior damage, such as the dual wipers. This also would eliminate the current problem (or at least reduce the effects) of using sniper weapons with Castanas/Angstrum.

 

EDIT: Oh, and launchers shouldn't use a sniper weapon pool. It kind of makes sense for arrows/bolts, but that starts to fall apart with you think that an arrow takes up the same amount of space as a rocket. Oh, and they come in the same clip size and in the same case, and if you happen to run out of one type, feel free to fire rockets from your Dread as well. Oh wait, they already have a mod for that.

 

Again, it makes more sense that they have technology to convert a single, base material to a more universal weapon ammo type.

At the very least, it would allow better balancing for weapons that have obscene amounts of damage, and still awesome ammo efficiency, while other weapons have next to no efficiency, yet average damage.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Magnar21