The Manic, Is A Stage Towards Anti Progression

[FitzSimmons]

The Manic, is a stage towards ANTI PROGRESSION.

This unit is a stone cold mechanical copy of the Payday 2 Ghost. It's one of the big reasons i quit PayDay 2. Firstly, this almost completely throws SINGLE PLAYER into the trashcan. People who have bad connections or prefer to play alone are being f###ed the hardest (they dont have AI buddies). And secondly, theyre ANTI PROGRESSION. I would understand this kind of enemy in a game like Left 4 Dead where you dont need to level up and you always have teammates, but not here.

 

Why does it kill progression you ask?

Because of the same reason in PayDay2: What if i create the most Tankiest build i can, with the maximum armor, completely minmaxed to the pinnacle, after spending years of playing a game Leveling Up, Earning that Gear, Earning and ranking all the skills and the mods in this case, to be a slow, heavily armored Tank...only to be one-hit KO'd by a skinny weak enemy....and then you just insert an Instant-Kill mechanic that completely ignores and disregards the whole point of a leveling up system and ranking anything and having any kind of armor or shield.

The Instant-Kill or Permanent-Stunlock-Until-Death enemy DOES NOT BELONG IN A GAME WITH  SUCH STEEP PROGRESSION.

Currently, a level 1 Manic can kill a 6 Forma'd level 30 Valkyr with Redirection, Vitality, Vigor, Steel Fiber, and allll the other tanky mods put together. THIS IS WRONG. Its ANTI PROGRESSION and it's ANTI WARFRAME.

 

THOSE KINDS OF GAME MECHANICS DO NOT BELONG HERE.

lv 1 manic? then you're weaaaaaaaaak. in tactial alert, lv 30-40 manic can't 1 hit kill my volt even when one of them *@##$ slap me i still live. dont exaggerate things pls. DE already nerfed Manic, now manic is less challenging

[BluelitHalo]

Imagine the reaction while OP played the latest Tactical Alert. If it's a really problem for people that DE is attempting to make some mechanical skill matter in a third-person shooter, I'm just gonna sit here and laugh.

And while I agree that insta-kills are more of a blatant frustration than a development of difficulty, that doesn't happen until you start reaching enemy levels way beyond that of the star chart. Even then, people have found several ways to cheese through the 3rd round of the Tactical Alert against Level 60-80 Manics.

[RXZ71]

Truthfully now that his regen is removed hes not that bad, also old vs stalker tactic of run in a circle while looking back works perfecly last I saw him.

Edit; btw when I meant old vs stalker tactic I meant stalkers old ai would chase u N a circle as u unload ammo at him And he would miss with like everythingx from shooting to slashdashing.

Edited April 12, 2015 by RXZ71

[HyenaGrin]

I like the manic. I have not had major issues dealing with him. There are many ways to counter his strengths, and once you figure out how he fights he is not really terribly dangerous, even in solo. A lot of his damage comes from hitting players who are standing still. Once you figure that out, it strips away a lot of his strengths. Don't stand still. Use melee more, or shotguns, and just keep moving, sliding, jumping, whatever. If you stand still he has two major attacks that do huge amounts of damage that rely on you not moving between when it activates and when it hits. Not to mention that he has short-range melee that does a lot of damage, but it's easy to evade.

 

Yes, they actually created an enemy that you need to dance with. If that is a problem in a game about space ninjas, I don't even know what we're playing anymore.

[LazyKnight]

Insta-kill in my book is an attack or uninteruptable attack string that either directly kills or causes an effect that will cause death very shortly afterward. In this case; his tackle is an insta-kill... for many, apparently. 

The only way to survive the tackle's finisher damage is raw health + shields and hope your sentinel's guardian is not on CD. Nothing else is counted and it easier to survive on a Volt then it would be on a Chroma, and it is because of how the damage works. It does not even matter if he knocks you down or if another NPCs does, he auto uses it from any distance. 

 

Try running a Grineer survival solo that has a starting level of 18, he'll attack you once at the 6:00-7:00 mark and every 5 minutes after that. It gets very annoying to die because a bombard's rocket knocked you down just to be auto killed by the manic. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Feallike]

Yet it takes a level 20 Maniac to kill my mirage... Your either very underleveled or just bad. :/ They can't hit you as long as you keep moving... I was able to run around during that alert for 2 minutes unhit by the 10 enemies after me.

[Tyrian3k]

The question isn't "How do I survive the ground finisher from the Manic?", it's "How do I avoid  the Manic's finisher?".

 

So long as there are no enemies that knock you down like Bombards, this isn't even that hard if you just never stop moving. They may still occasionally hit with a regular punch, but won't manage a finisher.

 

When it comes to the third round of the tactical alert, one of these single punches is usually enough to kill you, though and your only way of beating it is to not get hit at all, which is usually accomplished by standing on lockers.

 

As a general rule: Every time you take away the player's control entirely you will annoy that player since all they can do is sit and watch as they get killed. Regarding that aspect, the Manic's ground finisher has lots of similarities to the Nervos that Seekers used to drop and those were removed for that exact reason.

 

Possible ways to give players more control over the situation:

 

A: Allow us to break out of the finisher in some way.

B: Allow us to block the finisher attacks to reduce damage.

C: Let us stand up with a roll so we can move away from the place we got knocked down in.

[WolvenEdge]

The question isn't "How do I survive the ground finisher from the Manic?", it's "How do I avoid  the Manic's finisher?".

 

So long as there are no enemies that knock you down like Bombards, this isn't even that hard if you just never stop moving. They may still occasionally hit with a regular punch, but won't manage a finisher.

 

When it comes to the third round of the tactical alert, one of these single punches is usually enough to kill you, though and your only way of beating it is to not get hit at all, which is usually accomplished by standing on lockers.

 

As a general rule: Every time you take away the player's control entirely you will annoy that player since all they can do is sit and watch as they get killed. Regarding that aspect, the Manic's ground finisher has lots of similarities to the Nervos that Seekers used to drop and those were removed for that exact reason.

 

Possible ways to give players more control over the situation:

 

A: Allow us to break out of the finisher in some way.

B: Allow us to block the finisher attacks to reduce damage.

C: Let us stand up with a roll so we can move away from the place we got knocked down in.

 

^- this. Just this. Ways to escape it and avoid being killed, rather than being forced to watch as you die. This is a way to survive it, so my statement still stands.

[AutoPhox]

 

 

Yes, they actually created an enemy that you need to dance with. If that is a problem in a game about space ninjas, I don't even know what we're playing anymore.

^This guy has a good point.

 

I think a fun way to counter the ground finisher, if you fail the dodge, is to allow us to try and break the attack.(this might be a complicated rework, but worth it?)

The idea:

once on the ground and getting beat to death, a randomly generated short series of action buttons flash on the screen. (ex: [A], [RMB], [sPACE]). The damage continues until you die, the manic finished his beating, or you finish the button combo. I think this could add a fun element to the action. The lethality of the attack is still present, while the player still has some control over their fate.

[WolvenEdge]

^This guy has a good point.

 

I think a fun way to counter the ground finisher, if you fail the dodge, is to allow us to try and break the attack.(this might be a complicated rework, but worth it?)

The idea:

once on the ground and getting beat to death, a randomly generated short series of action buttons flash on the screen. (ex: [A], [RMB], [sPACE]). The damage continues until you die, the manic finished his beating, or you finish the button combo. I think this could add a fun element to the action. The lethality of the attack is still present, while the player still has some control over their fate.

 

Ugh... quick-time events....

[Towermice]

Agreed, for the past year now DE has been adding enemies and bosses with some sort of invulnerability and gimmick to kill them. Invulnerability is NOT a solution to your players being able to one shot things, one-shotting things is FINE when the enemies at hand are at levels way below you, if I can kill a level 95 corrupted gunner in say 5-6 seconds then why does that number have to change when I'm fighting Ruk or a Nullifier? I'm STRONGER than them and should therefore be able to kill them faster, but instead, I have to wait for Ruks chest plate to open or for a nullifiers shield (which doesn't even scale to weapon damage) to wear down , I think every new boss so far has an invincibility gimmick in one way or another, its really getting out of hand. 

[RonanFrost]

So much rage. In a game that is 'beta' (meaning there is stuff yet to be added), there is no such thing as "anti-progression".

 

Were you around for shock grenades? They resulted in vicarious death without teamwork. Yes, the Manic is a clear bada$$, but to make up words to suggest it's game-destroying is a bit much. You're almost invalidating a perfectly good point. 

 

This said - I agree in that I feel they should probably make it so he cannot kill any player from full health, who does not get immediate help from the team. Bring you to 2% total health, only do a maximum percentage of your max health, scaled by level? Great. I'd also like to see the shock grenades come back with some modification, though.

 

I said it in another thread, and it feels like a decent guideline:

There should not exist any mechanic that cannot be countered to avoid death in the absence of immediate team assistance.

 

*edit* I just saw the post about dancing with manics. If that's the case (have not tested it myself), then I see no room for griping, provided we're still getting our audible queue's that there's one around.

Edited April 12, 2015 by RonanFrost

[Mak_Gohae]

Outside of that Tact mission the few times ive seen them i actually ignored them.

Where do they stop progress? Defense mission? Survival?

[LazyKnight]

Outside of that Tact mission the few times ive seen them i actually ignored them.

Where do they stop progress? Defense mission? Survival?

Grineer survival mission that start at level 18 will get a new Manic every 5 minutes after minute 6 mark. I have not tested defense or intercetpion to see if they will ever spawn, but survival is where it is an unavoidable annoyance.

Edited April 12, 2015 by LazyKnight

[InsanePMK]

And I thought the manics were going to be hard because of their sneaky nature and smart AI. BUT NOPE! they are hard because they can regen health, teleport into an impenetrable rift, and you can't get a hit in edgewise. Oh and they make TERRIFYING NOISES! (which is a good thing by the way but it still creeps me out.) I always end up running away from them then trying to fight them. They are a cool idea but just not done right. cough cough like archwing

[Kontrollo]

The only way to survive the tackle's finisher damage is raw health + shields and hope your sentinel's guardian is not on CD. Nothing else is counted and it easier to survive on a Volt then it would be on a Chroma, and it is because of how the damage works. It does not even matter if he knocks you down or if another NPCs does, he auto uses it from any distance. 

 

Try running a Grineer survival solo that has a starting level of 18, he'll attack you once at the 6:00-7:00 mark and every 5 minutes after that. It gets very annoying to die because a bombard's rocket knocked you down just to be auto killed by the manic. 

 

Simply not true. Just a few posts before you I mentioned a way to deal with his tackle. You can't die from that alone if you're doing it right.

[achromos]

Sorry

I personally love the manic, I think the idea of it, the way he sounds, the way he operates, everything about him is amazing.

By the way, if you know how to dodge an enemy, the manic isn't an instant kill, He could MAYBE be an instant kill on a 15 armor frame with low mods that isn't dodging very good, but otherwise he's not a problem. But then again, a ton of other enemies are 1 hit kills on frames that are heavily loaded at higher levels if you don't know how to dodge.

Notice how I keep making the word "dodge" bold?

I think you need to freshen up your skills on fast paced game play, my friend. 

 

Not even DARK SOULS punishes players with SUDDEN INSTANT DEATH MECHANICS.  Usually you GET to dodge, usually things are TELEGRAPHED enough.  usually when you die it is your fault and you can learn to PREVENT it reliably. 

 

Or IN Dark souls, guess what... you can BE a heavy tank, and tank through things and the game dosen't go... LAWL i dont care what you wear U DIE against a regular enemy.  He isn't a boss, he is a regular enemy.  It is stretching it to even call him a assassin.

[jjpdn]

It's a tiny bit better now that it's not invincible.

 

I think the reason why his move is so OP is because if you're moving, it doesn't hit you 99% of the time anyways. 

 

So what I think they should do is make his move more telegraphed but harder to dodge, as WTF, just moving dodges it???

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why does it kill progression you ask?

Because of the same reason in PayDay2: What if i create the most Tankiest build i can, with the maximum armor, completely minmaxed to the pinnacle, after spending years of playing a game Leveling Up, Earning that Gear, Earning and ranking all the skills and the mods in this case, to be a slow, heavily armored Tank...only to be one-hit KO'd by a skinny weak enemy....and then you just insert an Instant-Kill mechanic that completely ignores and disregards the whole point of a leveling up system and ranking anything and having any kind of armor or shield.

The Instant-Kill or Permanent-Stunlock-Until-Death enemy DOES NOT BELONG IN A GAME WITH  SUCH STEEP PROGRESSION.

Currently, a level 1 Manic can kill a 6 Forma'd level 30 Valkyr with Redirection, Vitality, Vigor, Steel Fiber, and allll the other tanky mods put together. THIS IS WRONG. Its ANTI PROGRESSION and it's ANTI WARFRAME.

 

THOSE KINDS OF GAME MECHANICS DO NOT BELONG HERE.

 

I know it - I utterly hate it and I despise laying like a fool and gettin my **** beat, not even covering up and countering like an MMA fighter. I really feel like The Team keeps making fundamental mistakes that should never have been made in the first place. Team, come on - think about this enemy! Passively being beat to death - is that what the Tenno do in your world? Even untrained people instinctively cover up their faces when being attacked.

Edited April 13, 2015 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[belcebub]

I agree that being pinned down with no break-out-of-cc mechanic at our disposal is a cheap trick. It takes away agency which is bad. You can dodge out of the way or just step onto a nearest canister before that perfectly fine and without too much difficulty, but once it's on top of you, you basically can only watch what happens, you can't response in-game in any way. That's my biggest gripe with this enemy.

 

That, and the fact that it's not targetable most of the time. I can see it was made this way to prevent basically just being collateral damage in an ult-fest, but that doesn't really stop us to just press it till it gets caught anyway.

 

However, the damn things are not that powerful, i don't see where all these supposed ohks come from, i have been pinned down by them on squishies and managed to survive, so i dunno.

[Kontrollo]

I agree that being pinned down with no break-out-of-cc mechanic at our disposal is a cheap trick. It takes away agency which is bad. You can dodge out of the way or just step onto a nearest canister before that perfectly fine and without too much difficulty, but once it's on top of you, you basically can only watch what happens, you can't response in-game in any way.

...

 

You can, use restores. Seriously, people don't even read the stuff that's on the same page.

[Tenderdm]

I hate disscussion like this ,everyone just giving their opinion, but not fact. It is like discussion about whether you like to eat something or not; how it was cook? where did you buy it? where it was made? Nobody mention it, just talking for the sake of making theirself feel better.

I personally encounter it 10+ times, around 5 time it was able to jump my 1 formaed (W/ potato) Valkyr who was moving at the time, and it was able to 1 shot me around 3 out of that 5 times. in some situation it was able to kill my frame very fast with slash proc,which I think is fair.

My take on this is that is like many other mechanic in the game, that it should improve the challenge, but it should improve gameplay instead of just making things difficut. One good example is grenade, which should give more indication to player, but at the same time it should deal more damage to punish player who is just sitting at the same spot. It make the game more fun because you have more varity of challege, but at the same time you have a denfinite way to handle it.

Same goes with manic, may be it should have a move to stun player, and when you get stun 2 times you will get a instant kill? I let you guys figure it out.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Tenderdm

[Eda.Mone]

The Manic, is a stage towards ANTI PROGRESSION.

This unit is a stone cold mechanical copy of the Payday 2 Ghost. It's one of the big reasons i quit PayDay 2. Firstly, this almost completely throws SINGLE PLAYER into the trashcan. People who have bad connections or prefer to play alone are being f###ed the hardest (they dont have AI buddies). And secondly, theyre ANTI PROGRESSION. I would understand this kind of enemy in a game like Left 4 Dead where you dont need to level up and you always have teammates, but not here.

 

Why does it kill progression you ask?

Because of the same reason in PayDay2: What if i create the most Tankiest build i can, with the maximum armor, completely minmaxed to the pinnacle, after spending years of playing a game Leveling Up, Earning that Gear, Earning and ranking all the skills and the mods in this case, to be a slow, heavily armored Tank...only to be one-hit KO'd by a skinny weak enemy....and then you just insert an Instant-Kill mechanic that completely ignores and disregards the whole point of a leveling up system and ranking anything and having any kind of armor or shield.

The Instant-Kill or Permanent-Stunlock-Until-Death enemy DOES NOT BELONG IN A GAME WITH  SUCH STEEP PROGRESSION.

Currently, a level 1 Manic can kill a 6 Forma'd level 30 Valkyr with Redirection, Vitality, Vigor, Steel Fiber, and allll the other tanky mods put together. THIS IS WRONG. Its ANTI PROGRESSION and it's ANTI WARFRAME.

 

THOSE KINDS OF GAME MECHANICS DO NOT BELONG HERE.

Sigh.

You're late on comparing the two games. I did this already.

 

 

You know what we call this?

A difficulty tweak. 

[Mrevasivepants]

With all honestly, manics are fine as they are, i went down a few times because of them and that was my fault, now i understand they're suppose to be dodged, they've a pattern and you actually have to use strategies other than coptering around and spam every ability and have a god complex syndrome.

 

But instead of using the basic power of deduction to assume your theory is bullcrap, you had to log into the forums and post your stupid assertion.

You also sound like a conspiracy theorist whose expertise is to rant on things that no one is complaining about it, and that means something because we're talking about a newly introduced enemy with different mechanics.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Mrevasivepants

[Rykazz]

One thing that DE hasn't considered is how many powers they gave him and the strength of those powers relative to bosses.  He has: 1) Invisibility and invulnerability, 2) Dispel, 3) Back-stab, Take-down, and Punch rake, and 4) Health regeneration.  Most bosses have 2 to 5 powers and they usually have restrictions on which powers they can use in the same phase.  The manic has no such restrictions.  Furthermore, 3 of his powers are as strong as bosses.  I don't feel this is right at all.  First the enemy bosses got powers in excess of the technologically advanced Tenno and now the minions are getting more powers than their bosses!