Is There Really Any Reason For The Manic's Slash Proc Too Do That Much Damage?

[blasron]

if you were to dress the number of what kill the player the most i am pretty sure you would see the proc in the top of the list.

 

For the manic i just find out that its easier to take you melee wepon out to block and let your sentinel/kubrow do the job

[LazyKnight]

The manic is easy if he's level 20. He gets rather absurd at higher levels (+40), Stalker is easy by comparison. He should not be a scaling NPCs, if he is meant to stop '4' spammer, there has to be a better way. That slash proc he has is just like that -insert approved word- toxic proc that the new Loka assassin groups has. A walking bullet sponge wall that will guarantee death to anyone that does not have a rather decent health pool. 

 

The way DE has implemented assassin NPCs types has been cheap skills and bullet sponge walls. They are totally 100% pointless to kill too, and waste of time that is better off avoided and finishing the mission.

 

I have killed so many manics at this point trying to farm four riders. So many dead annoying NPCs and the best drop I got was a a common mod. Use rapid reliance or a bring a tank healer.

Edited April 5, 2015 by LazyKnight

[VentiGlondi]

"Instakill or get instakilled" is not a good enemy design.

[UseNet]

Make Health Restores, slash proc solved.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

I've only ever been able to beat the Manics by summoning Specters to distract them while I fire wildly. Sometimes I just run away from them instead since they're such a hassle to fight. They feel more like a miniboss than an actual enemy.

They are supposed to be a miniboss, but invincibility after certain damage threshold is simply too much. They should go completely berserk, with some damage reduction at worst, instead of being both hard to hit, invisible and invincible at once.

[gvidzix]

Well he got me yesterday for the first time when I was using Loki prime with 213 HP, he used the take-down move from behind. I wouldn't say he is hard, but he is annoying.

[RealPandemonium]

Rather than introducing bandaid enemies like Manics and Corrupted Bombards/Nullifiers, DE should nerf player power and re-adjust enemy power accordingly.  We've been in a spiral of escalation in power levels and our defensive capabilities have very obviously been left behind, the only justification for which is "you can one-shot and permaCC everything so it's fair if they can one-shot you."  Is this your idea of fun?  Certainly isn't for me.  

[Paradoxbomb]

The bleed damage is definitely a bit excessive, although simply moving about does seem to actually keep you from getting hit, which is a lot more than can be said about other assassin-type enemies. Personally I'm more annoyed by the whole invulnerability and near constant healing thing.

[zoboso]

Or to shame the people who post suggestions.

 

Why DE? why would you do this to us?

[LABAL]

Because they know better than some unknown community members.
Kind of "HOW DARE YOU POST SUGGESTIONS YOU WRETCHED FEEBLE THING!".

Or like a mad genie that hungers for your blood and twists all your wishes, turning them into a nightmare.

Edited April 6, 2015 by LABAL

[Centias]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bleed (and toxin) procs from enemies need to be toned down. They have no reason to be doing even 150 damage over their duration, let alone 200, 300 or more. Let's say, a single bleed (or toxic) proc cannot do more than 90% of a frame's base health. That way, it never even reaches 150 damage for one proc.

 

Also, the manic's invincibility time and/or self-healing needs to be toned down pretty drastically, or they need to have a longer delay for triggering the invincibility. At lower levels they're obviously pushovers, but at higher levels they turn into a smaller and more spastic version of the classic Jackal fight with how often you're just waiting for his stupid invincibility/stealth phase to end so you can actually hurt him some more (before he inevitably goes invincible and you have to wait around some more).

[HardcoreSalmon]

 

Here's how much damage a level 30 manic's slash proc does to a valkyr with war cry and a max steel fibre. It will basically 1 shot anything that has 500 health or less.

Edited April 6, 2015 by HardcoreSalmon

[R34LM]

You know, you get these people, try hards, who rage back saying "He only dies in one hit". Sure, but that's IF you have a one hit weapon, IF you even have a chance to get at his back, IF you are not distracted by other units, IF you have a good frame setup to divert his attention or resist his proc, and if you are not maining Ceres and higher.

 

As a main solo player, the manic is the only reason why I refuse to deal with Grineer. If he spawns in, I have 20% chance, with many different warframes and weapons, to actually kill him.

 

Biggest problem, it is very difficult to get at his back unless you use certain frames. Simply dodging and getting around him will not do it. Also, he has invulnerability phases and heal times. So what do you do? Fall to the meta. #lokimasterrace and whatnot.

 

 

Hey, OP, wanna know why manic is that way? Because DE is sick of players getting so tough that every enemy in their game becomes fodder. So, they make an enemy that can easily kill you in one shot, without mercy, is bloody hard to hit, and if you do hit him, he just goes invincible and heals up. The player concept was pefect, the execution by DE was not.

 

I was hoping for an enemy that I'd enjoy being scared to fight, accepting the challenge. What I get is just another one-shot killing bullet sponge that likes to give no chance to retaliate. It's not a challenge. It's cheap. You can tell it's cheap when it isn't hard, but you die anyway.

Edited April 6, 2015 by R34LM

[Defendor]

Here's a (pretty) sure way to handle the Manic:

 

1) RUN AWAY RUN AWAY RUN AWAY to a cleared room.

2) Find a good defensive spot. A corner is preferable, but a single wal should do the trick, too.

3) Equip your melee and block with your back towards the wall.

4) The Manic will run around you, periodically doing his jump attack. You've got a ~1s window to hit him after each attack. Do it.

5) Repeat 4) until he dies.

6 or 0) Hope your melee hits hard, because otherwise his regen will overcome your damage.

 

Too bad this strategy doesn't work if you can't find a safe room and is very boring.

[Nyktelios]

I was killed twice by Manics, once was the first encounter (he raped me), and second time while reviving a Kubrow...

 

Since then, Volt ult + two shots of Mara Detron. That's all the haaaaard work that the Manic requires from me.

[Centias]

Here's how much damage a level 30 manic's slash proc does to a valkyr with war cry and a max steel fibre. It will basically 1 shot anything that has 500 health or less.

 

This is the absurd crap I mean. That bleed shouldn't have even done close to 200 total, let alone ~500 total (85 per tick). He hardly even did 250 damage to you with the main hit (probably even less, with one bleed tick happening immediately, but that bleed proc does more than five times the damage of the initial hit. I can understand this kind of damage being good or even necessary on our enemies, but it's completely ridiculous on our relatively puny health pools.

 

I've had a Ballista do nearly the same amount, and they fire a Vulkar that does mostly impact damage. Bleed and toxic procs should never do enough to kill any frame from just one proc. Cap it at something lower than the frame's base health pool, so even a fresh player can't suddenly eat a single bleed proc that causes instant death.

 

For the record, I understand how the bleed proc damage works, and it makes slash damage procs worthwhile against our enemies. The problem is, we don't have the health pool our enemies do. It needs to work differently against us.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Centias

[RealPandemonium]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bleed (and toxin) procs from enemies need to be toned down. They have no reason to be doing even 150 damage over their duration, let alone 200, 300 or more. Let's say, a single bleed (or toxic) proc cannot do more than 90% of a frame's base health. That way, it never even reaches 150 damage for one proc.

Procs deal their damage based on the base damage of the hit that inflicted them.  Slash procs deal 245% of base damage over 6 seconds as Finisher damage, which ignores armor and shields.  Toxin procs deal 450% of base damage over 8 seconds.  Toxin damage is boosted by 50% against Tenno, which further increases the proc's lethality.  

 

So, what you are actually asking for is a reduction in base damage or status chance or both on Manics.

<video> 

 

Here's how much damage a level 30 manic's slash proc does to a valkyr with war cry and a max steel fibre. It will basically 1 shot anything that has 500 health or less.

Because Slash procs do Finisher damage, Valkyr's impressive armor rating makes no difference here.  

[Centias]

Procs deal their damage based on the base damage of the hit that inflicted them.  Slash procs deal 245% of base damage over 6 seconds as Finisher damage, which ignores armor and shields.  Toxin procs deal 450% of base damage over 8 seconds.  Toxin damage is boosted by 50% against Tenno, which further increases the proc's lethality.

 

So, what you are actually asking for is a reduction in base damage or status chance or both on Manics.

 

I should have pointed out in my first post in this thread, like I did in the post right before yours, that I'm fully aware of how the proc damage works. The problem is, they are procs designed to be worthwhile against enemies, which subsequently ended up being too strong against players. There's no reason for a bleed/toxic proc to be doing so much damage to a player.

 

So what I'm actually asking for is that slash/toxic procs deal a reduced percentage of the base attack's damage and/or have their effects capped relative to the player's health pool such that it can not kill the player in just one proc. Their base damage is fine. Their status chance is potentially fine. But that one hit should never cause a single bleed proc that does 500 or more damage.

[RealPandemonium]

I should have pointed out in my first post in this thread, like I did in the post right before yours, that I'm fully aware of how the proc damage works. The problem is, they are procs designed to be worthwhile against enemies, which subsequently ended up being too strong against players. There's no reason for a bleed/toxic proc to be doing so much damage to a player.

 

So what I'm actually asking for is that slash/toxic procs deal a reduced percentage of the base attack's damage and/or have their effects capped relative to the player's health pool such that it can not kill the player in just one proc. Their base damage is fine. Their status chance is potentially fine. But that one hit should never cause a single bleed proc that does 500 or more damage.

How about enemies don't deal punitively high damage in the first place?  A combination of that and lowering/removing the status chance would fix this issue without bandaids.  

 

Also, don't take it personally; I just used your post as an example to help illustrate the facts of the situation for less informed readers.  

Edited April 6, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Centias]

How about enemies don't deal punitively high damage in the first place?  A combination of that and lowering/removing the status chance would fix this issue without bandaids.  

 

Also, don't take it personally; I just used your post as an example to help illustrate the facts of the situation for less informed readers.  

 

Reducing status chance is a helpful start, especially if it also means fewer blast procs from bombards, fire procs from Napalms and Fusion MOAs, etc.

 

Reducing damage a bit for some of the more ridiculous enemies would also be helpful, of course. Seekers, Ballistas, Bombards, Napalms, Fusion MOAs, and Nullifiers are the first things that come to my mind. Ballistas and Nullifiers I can understand hitting sort of hard because they use sniper rifles, but they should be shooting them a lot slower and drastically less accurate when they fire while running around or immediately after turning around. Bombards and Napalms are already heavily armored, have more health, and tend to take a lot longer to kill, so they don't also need to be the highest damage dealers. Seekers don't need to be dealing so much damage with a Kraken, that thing isn't even that strong, and definitely isn't as accurate as they are with it.

 

But all that said, I don't really feel like the Manic does that much damage with a normal hit, only when he pounces on you--which doesn't happen often if you're paying attention so it's fine--or apparently when he gets a bleed proc. So I still feel like these two status effects could randomly be dealing some pretty out of control damage like in HardcoreSalmon's video. Reducing the status chance just means it will happen it less often, but it could still be completely lethal with just one application depending on frame. Reducing the damage just means it may not happen unless you scale the enemies up a bit in endless missions, which is helpful but means you may still eat a ridiculously high damage bleed while playing around in Survival.

 

I still feel like these effects just need to be treated differently on players vs enemies, or even just reduced for both, because taking over triple the damage of the base hit means taking a bleed/toxic proc from any single shot that causes some reasonable amount of damage suddenly turns into half your health missing, or any shot that causes a high amount of damage can outright kill you in a couple seconds just because you got unlucky and were hit with that proc too. But I was trying to suggest reducing the effect on players so that they proc actually remains somewhat desirable against our enemies, who tend to have significantly more health than us.

[ACorpse]

Reducing the chance of a proc just changes the odds of dying from BS. It doesn't change the fact that when it happens it's still BS. There's no skill involved in sitting there waiting to see if a slash proc will tick out before you die or not.

[anamethisis]

Is Rapid Resilience even useful against him? my thoughts they should just change this mod into Immune to all procs by enemies including slash from grineer lancer, and manics empty-headed animal food though wipers.

[LazyKnight]

Is Rapid Resilience even useful against him? my thoughts they should just change this mod into Immune to all procs by enemies including slash from grineer lancer, and manics empty-headed animal food though wipers.

It works the same against all proc, it cuts the number of ticks down. With it, you will still take damage from one or two ticks, instead of all of it.

Edited April 7, 2015 by LazyKnight

[LABAL]

Surprise-surprise! If you get killed by a slash proc, you're not downed. You're DEAD!