Dark Dagger --One Of The Strongest (And Underrated) Melee In The Game

[elele]

Edit 2: 

 

Seems a lot of people don't read long posts and they get confused. So I'll put the gist in front: 

 

1. Gleaming Blight augment. Guaranteed viral proc AOE, 6 seconds window of halved enemy health. --This is effectively 2X your DPS. 

 

2. Pointed Wind stance. The first four clicks actually do SIX strikes, counting toward your melee combo counter. So, 1.5X dps after the first three click. 

 

3. Pointed Wind stance again. Second click does 2X 400% dmg. Third does 2X 150% dmg and fourth does 1X 200% dmg. On average, that's 3.5X dmg multiplier in the first four clicks. --For reference, a max crit built Ichor (35 base dmg, same as Dark Dagger) only has 2.88X dmg multiplier from crits (40% of 5.7x), and its basic combo from Swirling Tiger has no dmg multiplier. 

 

4. With Gleaming Blight and two event mods, 21% chance to proc Corrosive. Every five strike on average procs a Corrosive. 

 

5. Copters well. 

 

6. Radiation gets bonus dmg against Bombards. 

 

7. Fast finisher moves (much faster than dual swords). Ideal of Excalibur's Radiant Finish build. 

 

 

If any of DE people read this, please don't ever buff daggers. Otherwise the power creep is gonna go through the roof. 

 

Oh and I thought it was very funny that people complained and complained about Rakta Ballistica being useless when the viral AOE doubles your dps. Now this thing has been buffed over 9000 power level and become insanely OP. 

 

 

(original post below)

 

I don't know whether this should be in Player Helping Player/PSA or weapon feedback. But I've read countless forum posts about "DAGGERS NEED A BUFF!" from people who haven't really used daggers to their maximum potential. So in the past few days I've been doing some theorycrafting and calculation in my head when I took my afternoon walk, and I present to you--

 

the Dark Dagger, built to its maximum potential, specialized in taking down Heavy Gunners/Bombards of upward lvl 60+. I've recorded a video of this in Simulacrum (see below): a lvl 90 Grineer Heavy Gunner is taken out in 4 seconds.

 

 

 

Edit: now for comparison: Dual Zoren, widely considered to be one of the best melee in the game, with a Crit/Berserker build, also needs 4 seconds to take out a lvl 90 Heavy Gunner: 

 

 

 

 

 

And I've tested it in a T3S 50min, at which point, lvl 92 Heavy Gunners/Bombards start to spawn, and the Dark Dagger had no problem taking them out (unfortunately I don't have a video of this run).  -- I should clarify our team had a Saryn, a Loki and a Limbo. No corrosive projection. And we didn't sewer camp. 

 

A few things of note: the Gleaming Blight augment mod triggers an AOE explosion with guaranteed viral proc. This cannot be replicated in Simulacrum because you don't gain affinity from killing enemies there and syndicate weapons depend on affinity to trigger their effect. --So I used the closest replacement: a Glaxion with 75% pure viral proc (Malignant Force, Hammershot, Rifle Aptitude) to trigger one viral proc on the lvl90 Heavy Gunner, as an approximation of Gleaming Blight's viral proc. 

 

The build I use: 

 

Note that at lvl 90, a Grineer Heavy Gunner has 6500 armor. Two corrosive procs reduce armor which almost doubles your effective damage. Thereby the Gleaming Blight mod is a great augment. 

 

Also because daggers are FAST (don't be confused by the listed attack speed of 0.917), you can reach 2X dmg combo counter in no time. 

 

Of course the Dark Dagger is no Scindo Prime (which if built properly, have double the DPS of the Dark Dagger without Berserker; and if you can time your Cleaving Whirlwind combo despite the sporadic speed caused by Berserker, Scindo Prime's DPS has no upper limit). However, the Dark Dagger copters really, really well. And if a weapon like the Dark Dagger has very good DPS to take out lvl 90 Grineer/Corrupted, and copters well, there is really no need for any buff. 

 

I suspect Karyst with its much higher damage (50 vs Dark Dagger's 35), pure toxin for pure Corrosive, higher proc chance even without any syndicate mod, would perform even better than the Dark Dagger. On the other hand, I've used the Sheev (a slash weapon) to take out lvl 100+ Infested with no problem. And Ceramic Dagger is the best copter weapon in the game. 

 

So the TL;DR: Daggers are fine, and underrated. There is no need to ask for any buffs to them. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by elele

[SayonaraChainsaw]

Delete this.

[Siubijeni]

And Ceramic Dagger is the best copter weapon in the game.

 

Not so much. If you're talking distance, that's Amphis. If not, there are still lots of things better than Ceramic Dagger than are better melee, too. Scoliac, for one. Of all the copter weapons I've tested (and the more extensive tests run by other people and shown on Reddit/etc agree with me), it's second only to Amphis for distance and does pretty darn well as a melee. There are better, absolutely, but it's enough.

 

So the TL;DR: Daggers are fine, and underrated. There is no need to ask for any buffs to them. 

 

Daggers are fine? Fine. Maybe. That doesn't mean there's no need to ask for buffs, because frankly "fine" isn't good enough when you hold it up against most other melee.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Siubijeni

[Easymac]

Zoren and kama are better copter weapons imo.
but
agreed. alot of weapons are over played, but that doesnt make the other weapons bad.

[CY13ERPUNK]

um

 

ya

 

no

 

sry

 

we've been asking for DUAL DARK DAGGERS since the open beta trailer, AND WE ARE STILL WAITING =[

[elele]

Zoren and kama are better copter weapons imo.

 

Depend on how you copter. Zorens cost too much stamina and in a lot of situations I simply do an awkward directional melee when I want to copter, because I run out of stamina. 

 

With daggers, you never run out of stamina. Your stamina regens to full during your copter flying. 

[VKhaun]

MK1-Braton is fine for End Game because my team I stack buffs and debuffs.

 

This is proof that everything needs a nerf.

Edited May 1, 2015 by VKhaun

[izzatuw]

MK1-Braton is fine for End Game because my team I stack buffs and debuffs.

 

This is proof that everything needs a nerf.

^

[Rakshal]

Zoren and kama are better copter weapons imo.

When not considering Berserker, daggers are some of the fastest coptering weapons in the game. Ceremic Dagger is way faster (at least from what I remember) than the Dark Dagger, but can be harder to control.

[elele]

This is proof that everything needs a nerf.

 

Judging from the price Buzzkill/Piercing Caliber are selling in trade chat, most players don't know how the damage system works and how builds work. So their weapons are not built properly and only do half the dps of properly built weapons. 

 

You nerf the weapons, then they'll have trouble even doing a 20min T4. 

[izzatuw]

Judging from the price Buzzkill/Piercing Caliber are selling in trade chat, most players don't know how the damage system works and how builds work. So their weapons are not built properly and only do half the dps of properly built weapons. 

 

You nerf the weapons, then they'll have trouble even doing a 20min T4.

He was kidding? His premise was his team generally using Sonar+M Prime+Rhino Roar+4CP

[Vargras]

Judging from the price Buzzkill/Piercing Caliber are selling in trade chat, most players don't know how the damage system works and how builds work. So their weapons are not built properly and only do half the dps of properly built weapons. 

 

You nerf the weapons, then they'll have trouble even doing a 20min T4. 

Pretty sure they were mocking you.

 

You can't say "I do fine with daggers, so daggers as a whole are completely fine" and not expect to catch any flak for it. It's a really dumb way of thinking.

[VKhaun]

Judging from the price Buzzkill/Piercing Caliber are selling in trade chat, most players don't know how the damage system works and how builds work. So their weapons are not built properly and only do half the dps of properly built weapons. 

 

You nerf the weapons, then they'll have trouble even doing a 20min T4. 

 

There is so much wrong here I don't know where to start... 

 

What is your question, or what statement are you trying to prove that someone has disagreed with?

 

Your title is comparative, saying Dark Dagger is "one of the strongest and underrated" but your test doesn't compare it to anything.

[taiiat]

congratulations - you were able to stack Buffs and Debuffs and you made a Dagger moderately viable.

now replace that Melee Weapon with most other Melee Weapons - and notice that you Kill Enemies much faster, whether it be single Units or groups.

so VKhaun has got the right statement here - i can make a Lato super awesome if i stack Eclipse, Sonar, Prime, and a Damage Augment.

but just about anything else will be far superior to that in the same situation.

basically this thread is not useful in the slightest, because you're comparing 'use this Weapon after doing A,B,C,D,E,F' to 'any other Weapon just by itself'.

this is a strawman comparison.

[Pie_mastyr]

well don't forget, nearly every other enemy class can hit multiple enemies at a time, whereas daggers just can't. It would be cool if the range increase mods were additive instead of multiplicative. But as it stands now the biggest issue is not the damage per se but the utility and usability

[elele]

congratulations - you were able to stack Buffs and Debuffs and you made a Dagger moderately viable.

 

the only "buff" not related to the dagger here is Valkyr's Warcry. And if you're a melee Valkyr, you have to use Warcry. 

 

There is only one viral "debuff" and it's supposedly coming from Gleaming Blight (which can't be replicated in Simulacrum so I replaced it with Glaxion). 

[[DE]Momaw]

What you've really illustrated here is that elemental-based weapon with high chance to proc corrosion is really good against an enemy that relies on armor for the overwhelming majority of its durability.  Pointless example seems pointless however, because I can't think of any reason why you would be fighting level 90 armored enemies without a team of corrosive projection to back you up...in which case, other melee weapons will be more appealing. Slash damage is super effective against flesh, and bigger weapons have superior multi-hit and knockdown capabilities.

[elele]

because I can't think of any reason why you would be fighting level 90 armored enemies without a team of corrosive projection to back you up

 

because this makes the game FUN. So much more fun than CCing everything and Molecular Prime and 4X CP. 

 

And challenging for once. 

[taiiat]

and today i learned that apparently really long Health Bars makes games harder.

(sarcasm)

[elele]

and today i learned that apparently really long Health Bars makes games harder.

(sarcasm)

 

Maybe tomorrow you can learn more, for example: 

 

really long health bar means tougher enemies, which means they'll be shooting you more when you try to fight them, which puts you in more danger. 

 

Sure it's much harder than when you fight lvl 1 enemies and you obliterate them before they can even come out of the spawn.

 

There, you can thank me later for teaching you some new stuff. (not sarcasm). 

[Sixty5]

Wow, a melee weapon that works well on a melee frame. Who would have thought?

With the right build, and Mirage, I can make the Supra a weapon capable of shredding just about anything.

The problem is, that same setup on another frame is mediocre.

Just because a weapon is good under a certain set of circumstances does not make it a great weapon.

What it does show, is how said weapob can be made to be strong.

A flat buff to daggers attack speed, proc/crit chance/damage as well as finisher damage could turn them into weapons that actually rate with things like the Dragon Nikana or Galatine.

[elele]

Wow, a melee weapon that works well on a melee frame. Who would have thought?

With the right build, and Mirage, I can make the Supra a weapon capable of shredding just about anything. 

The problem is, that same setup on another frame is mediocre.

 

which is why I also think Supra needs no buff. Certain weapons just have synergy with certain frames. 

 

Torid is by census an end-game gun. But if you don't couple it with Vortex, it's less useful. 

[Buzkyl]

which is why I also think Supra needs no buff. Certain weapons just have synergy with certain frames. 

 

Torid is by census an end-game gun. But if you don't couple it with Vortex, it's less useful.

Vortex or not the torid is still and extremely good weapon both stat wise and usage.

By that logic other weapons need a nerf as they're to overpowered on certain frames

[elele]

Edited to include a comparison with Dual Zoren. 

[taiiat]

Edited to include a comparison with Dual Zoren. 

and look at that, without any Viral Status(which in the actual game would be RNG whether you have it on an Enemy you're attacking at any given time or not), or Corrosive Status, it Killed the Enemy in about the same amount of time!

holy s... it's almost like tons of other Melee Weapons are leagues and leagues better!