Proposed Starchart Changes [Megathread]

[Oakenman]

steve mentioned "mission crafting" i think we'll all be fine

[AdunSaveMe]

Screw that. Let's panic about something that isn't even close to being finalized and is still open for heavy discussion.

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

 

 

(Notes thanks to AM-Bunny: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/454266-devstream-52-overview/)

 

In light of what was said in Devstream #52, the Star Chart Manifesto now reads like orders to the borg from Simaris.

 

Random nodes a'la Nightmare Mode (which no one plays after they get the mods because the game play is random); to do list a'la Simaris; and resource grinding plus foundry waiting a'la Law of Retribution for the 5-20 minutes of the fun you really want.  Grind 9000.  Choice 1/9000.

 

DE created this problem by making 300 unrewarding nodes and 20 rewarding nodes.  Now they're pitching this Trojan Nerf Horse as the solution to our complaints when it's really just stripping the veneer of the problem they created.  It's more of the same problem, not a solution at all.

 

The solution is equally rewarding nodes and a node filter, not RNGesus 9000.

 

Random fun gets replaced by reliable fun.  Some days will not be Warframe days because the fun will not be available on that day.  Then people will get hooked on something else they can depend on for fun and move on.

 

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

steve mentioned "mission crafting" i think we'll all be fine

So we'd rather compromise and sacrifice the FREEDOM OF CHOICE that we already have access to for a NEW RNG MISSION SYSTEM remedied by a CRAFTING systems that creates ARTIFICIAL FREEDOM OF CHOICE but complemented with GRIND and TIME WALLS?

[ThePresident777]

Yeah, mission crafting, like Law of Retribution (6 hour wait), Mesa (invasion rewarded ingredients, grind to wait), Nekros (grind to grind to grind) ... Complete with spamming chat for match making, an old problem that's about to get much worse. It's a completely disfunctional idea.

Edited May 10, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Bab8s]

I just hope that it wont be a matter of RNG whether I can even subject myself to RNG to collect resources. I absolutely don't want to have to just hope that a mission where I can get the resources I need is available during the limited times of day I can play. 

 

I don't really see the worth of the argument that people only really play 10 nodes or whatever. I guess I've never been a power gamer, but I play different missions on different planets and tilesets as suits my fancy. I'm not thrilled that I will not be able to do such a thing because some people feel mysteriously compelled to sit in front of their computer and do something they don't enjoy, repeatedly, and for hours at a time.

Screw that. Let's panic about something that isn't even close to being finalized and is still open for heavy discussion.

Yes, and while we're at it, lets not discuss the thing that is "heavily open" to discussion. (I don't really see the purpose of your statement)

[TheGuyver]

DE has really put their foot in their mouths with this whole "year of quality" stuff. I really don't feel the need to change the star chart. How long did we wait the last time when it was overhauled? They could put development time towards something else.......like making archwing not a giant piece of crap. I guess they would rather piss off and drive away players instead of cleaning up their game modes.

 

If they want people to go out in the starchart and play those nodes, they should give us more incentive, and not take away our choices. Maybe if they stopped giving out steady hand and stabilizer mods for spy missions CONSTANTLY people would play those more. Mission crafting? This isn't everquest or neverwinter. Sure it sounds cool, but it'll probably have some ridiculous time draining twist where nobody would want to even do it.

 

I'm normally a "wait and see" type of player, but this whole year of quality has been one bad move after another so far and taking away my choice of what I play on the star chart is where I draw the line.

Edited May 10, 2015 by TheGuyverOne

[vaugahn]

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as they've usually come through in the past. The massive panic is probably unnecessary.

 

And on top of that, we don't really know anything yet. All of the people going off about keys and stuff are just speculating, and made-up fear is even worse than regular fear.

 

That said, I'm not super happy with the changes they outlined. The manifesto was nice, but what they described in the stream was a very bad way of fulfilling those points. The player should always be able to choose their mission type and tileset, and by extension the reward pool they're looking for. As long as we're able to do that I could care less how many nodes we have. It's not like anyone plays most of our nodes right now anyways.

[Darkmoone1]

We need more detail and information besides a list. I need to see concepts and discussions from the developers on this. I'm not sure whether we are getting the entire scope of it, or if we're just scorning and condemning with the possibility that it might be positive change before it even ships out.

[7grims]

I for once, am at favor of this change.

Yet the community as made great points about increasing grind walls, and severe other problems.

Edited May 10, 2015 by 7grims

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

Yeah, mission crafting, like Law of Retribution (6 hour wait), Mesa (invasion rewarded ingredients, grind to wait), Nekros (grind to grind to grind) ... Complete with spamming chat for match making, an old problem that's about to get much worse. It's a completely disfunctional idea.

I can already imagine how much people will complain but I probably won't be here in forums anymore when that happens lol.

DE has really put their foot in their mouths with this whole "year of quality" stuff. I really don't feel the need to change the star chart. How long did we wait the last time when it was overhauled? They could put development time towards something else.......like making archwing not a giant piece of crap. I guess they would rather &!$$ off and drive away players instead of cleaning up their game modes.

 

If they want people to go out in the starchart and play those nodes, they should give us more incentive, and not take away our choices. Maybe if they stopped giving out steady hand and stabilizer mods for spy missions CONSTANTLY people would play those more. Mission crafting? This isn't everquest or neverwinter. Sure it sounds cool, but it'll probably have some ridiculous time draining twist where nobody would want to even do it.

 

I'm normally a "wait and see" type of player, but this whole year of quality has been one bad move after another so far and taking away my choice of what I play on the star chart is where I draw the line.

 

If even wait and see type of players are saying this then it must mean something doesn't it? But yes here is where I draw the line as well.

[vaugahn]

Yes, and while we're at it, lets not discuss the thing that is "heavily open" to discussion. (I don't really see the purpose of your statement)

 

I think he was just talking about the panic, not the discussion as a whole. 

 

A lot of people have straight-up freaked out.

[Darkmoone1]

Any idea that can throw away the 20+ useless nodes in this game instantly gets my attention. 

 

Whether it can keep my attention is if turns out to be good in practice. Will require additional discussion from devs, examples, conceptions, and test builds to watch, etc.  

 

We will need to wait patiently to find out.

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as they've usually come through in the past. The massive panic is probably unnecessary.

 

And on top of that, we don't really know anything yet. All of the people going off about keys and stuff are just speculating, and made-up fear is even worse than regular fear.

 

That said, I'm not super happy with the changes they outlined. The manifesto was nice, but what they described in the stream was a very bad way of fulfilling those points. The player should always be able to choose their mission type and tileset, and by extension the reward pool they're looking for. As long as we're able to do that I could care less how many nodes we have. It's not like anyone plays most of our nodes right now anyways.

I normally do give them the benefit of the doubt just not with this one too much is at stake not just for myself but for everyone here. The more DE shrouds there plans while giving vague details that causes panic and uproar of the player base the worse the situation becomes so they should at least try to communicate with us or be more transparent or at least pay attention to all this feedback before making a decision that they will revert eventually but by that time it might already be too late I don't really want to think its possible but we have to prepare for the worst its better that way and given their current track record (with some of their more unpopular stealth fixes and stealth changes) is not really helping them at all. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by HARDCORE_DAVE

[Chub_N_Tuck]

I honestly didn't like how most of the starchart nodes were just abandoned and dead.

 

The Sanctuary actually gave some purpose for people to go to some of the deserted planets, but that also was limited to only some of the nodes that people can run fast and easy. I don't see much of a problem as long as matchmaking is faster.

 

I don't exactly know how it'll be since it's not even here, all the more reason to stop hating on DE and freak out.

 

Some people here on forums think they care about the game and yet, when changes seem S#&$ty in their heads, they say they'll leave the game.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Chuck_NoMiss

[vaugahn]

I normally do give them the benefit of the doubt just not with this one too much is at stake not just for myself but for everyone here. The more DE shrouds there plans while giving vague details that causes panic and uproar of the player base the worse the situation becomes so they should at least try to communicate with us or be more transparent or at least pay attention to all this feedback before making a decision that they will revert eventually but by that time it might already be too late I don't really want to think its possible but we have to prepare for the worst its better that way and given their current track record now its not really helping them at all. 

 

Preparing for the worst is good in theory, but not always in practice. I'd advise caution.

 

We just don't know enough yet. From what they said it sounded bad, but you could describe many good aspects of this game in ways that make them sound bad. It could have just been poor wording, or it could be a legitimately bad decision. We can't tell at all, and freaking out prematurely gets us nowhere. I'm hoping for additional clarification next week.

 

Also, commas and periods. That was a massive run-on sentence.

[Knightmare047]

"players will leave if you remove ability mod!"

"players will leave if you nerf xxx!"

"players will leave if you remove xxx!"

 

Yeah people keep making this thread whenever big changes happens. If huge ammount of players actually leaving whenever DE implement big changes, warframe would've been dead many updates ago. But the simple fact is, the change happened but warframe still going strong.

Well, this is the general rule in a system where the community are able to involve themselves alot with it. As much as they can contribute alot to it and them knowing about the nooks and cranny like bugs and how the players REALLY play the game, it won't always make them right. This is mostly be due to the fact that the community can be split into groups which have different opinions on things. And sometimes, the changes and decisions made by the senior people in the system(DE, in Warframe's case) may be beneficial for the system in the long term more than we know it.

 

That being said, I'm still sort of having mixed thoughts on this new Star Chart system. But I'm hoping for the best.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Knightmare047

[Hypernaut1]

People are acting like it's going to change much. If you truly enjoy the game, this change really doesn't amount to much. If you hate so much of the content that you can only enjoy a few missions- then maybe you should move on anyway regardless of change.

It's rare that I EVER pick a random mission. If I go to star chart, it's to the same nodes that I know yield a resource. This is not choice.I rarely just "play my favorite game type", unless you confuse favorite game type with easiest farm spot.

Other than that, I only play alerts at random. There is no way they can give alert level rewards to more than 20 nodes.

[ThePresident777]

We know a lot already.  Devstream #52 and the Star Chart Manifesto spelled it all out.  Random missions and key walled missions, the grind we already have taken to 9000, and the freedom and reliability we did have ... gone. 

 

Warframe already has random missions via Alerts, Nightmare Mode, Syndicate missons, Simaris, and void key farming.  Warframe already has crafted missions via Mesa grind/wait wall, (old) Hydroid grind, Nekros grind/wait wall, Derelicts grind, Law of Retribution wait wall.

 

DE is just repakaging the old grind and amping it up, and getting rid of the majority of the Star Chart.  They are getting rid of the last shread of choice and reliability and leaving us with everything we have been complaining about.

 

Plus, let's not forget spamming chat to match make a keyed mission.  This Trojan Nerf Horse makes about as much sense as clicking on the Warframe icon and getting a random app instead.

 

For some perspective 4 factions x 18 missions x 8 level ranges = 576 nodes, you get 20 chosen for you.

[vaugahn]

Random missions and key walled missions

 

...were not spelled out at all. Seriously. It's hard to give feedback on something as nebulous and ill-defined as what we have here.

 

I get it's fashionable to be on the hate train these days, but come on. 

[fatpig84]

Screw that. Let's panic about something that isn't even close to being finalized and is still open for heavy discussion.

 

There was no discussion.

Did you watch the dev stream ? :/

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

We know a lot already.  Devstream #52 and the Star Chart Manifesto spelled it all out.  Random missions and key walled missions, the grind we already have taken to 9000, and the freedom and reliability we did have ... gone. 

 

Warframe already has random missions via Alerts, Nightmare Mode, Syndicate missons, Simaris, and void key farming.  Warframe already has crafted missions via Mesa grind/wait wall, (old) Hydroid grind, Nekros grind/wait wall, Derelicts grind, Law of Retribution wait wall.

 

DE is just repakaging the old grind and amping it up, and getting rid of the majority of the Star Chart.  They are getting rid of the last shread of choice and reliability and leaving us with everything we have been complaining about.

 

Plus, let's not forget spamming chat to match make a keyed mission.  This Trojan Nerf Horse makes about as much sense as clicking on the Warframe icon and getting a random app instead.

 

For some perspective 4 factions x 18 missions x 8 level ranges = 576 nodes, you get 20 chosen for you.

^

[Alphafox]

Screw that. Let's panic about something that isn't even close to being finalized and is still open for heavy discussion.

Waiting for the fire to burn your house when it's just at your doorstep isn't really something smart in my opinion. It's better that people panic, that the change is reconsidered. Wait to see if it become a issue isn't feasible anymore, this is what they always did and now look at what is happening.

 

Prevention is ALWAYS better than damage control, because with damage control the harm is already done.

[ThePresident777]

New Starchart

• Hoping to appear in U17

• 300 nodes are being condensed to 20 nodes

• There may be time-based instances, such as Vor appearing temporarily, dropping different things each time

• Similar to Alerts, but hopefully not something that punishes players for sleeping

• There will be some removal of player choice - you will no longer be able to select whichever mission type you want, whenever you want; hopefully this will be better for the game overall

• Re-viewing player made quests again and designing the starchart so that these will be able to fit into it; hopefully this will be the answer to players that resent the removal of choice

(Notes thanks to AM-Bunny: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/454266-devstream-52-overview/)

"you will no longer be able to select whichever mission type you want, whenever you want" = random missions like Alerts, Invasions, and Syndicate Missions.

 

"player made quests" = foundry missions like Derelicts, Mesa, Trials.  Foundry is how players make things in Warframe.

 

And again, 4 factions x 18 missions x 8 level ranges = 576 possible nodes at least, currently ~420 iirc, you get 20 chosen for you.

 

DE is not giving us anything new here.  They're taking away choice which increases grind.

Edited May 10, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Yastin]

Now, while this is targeted at the developers, I don't think it's quite feedback... The point is though, DE... You've said the magic word.

 

"Random".

 

When you say this word, and it is nearly all that you give us as a metric for the new star-chart, it has us. Your players. Your customers. Your dollar-cozies... Scared S#&$less. That your game. Our game... Is going to become Warface, or some other F2P game. Some other game is not what we wanted, and not what we payed for.

 

It's not just that it's different though. We fear the magic word because it's already a major part of Warframe. We fear that this change is literally a layer of RNG on top of layers of RNG. A thing you've done before. See the ODDs that nearly every player has abandoned. When you give us Random, we give you flames. It's not pretty but that's the best way to put it, since I, other founders, and countless players have been burning our goat sacrifices to RNGesus for -years- now. Literal years. And this is like the call of an angry god. A petty god. A god that demands more goats...

 

In summary. You've scared us with a lack of transparency and the "R" word. Our pants have been soiled and the neighbors are starting to complain. Please advise.