Saryn Is Very Broken...

[NEONOVUS]

i think all ults should have CD, nobody in the community cares for balance, thats why people get bored at this game so fast, smashing 4 gets old pretty quick

If it got boring and no other use than flashy, people would drop it like an Oberon.

Rather, it has extreme use, and the cooldown, solves what?

Spend more time shooting them with guns or trying to stab them and get whacked down?

Are we discussing level 30+ mobs here or <9?

 

See the issue is that beyond a desire to be the killer, nobody has listed an actual detriment.

Want xp? Congrats you get that.

Want the drops? same.

Want to have an actual life outside grinding or actually do some fun grinding with that girlfriend always at your hand? You can do that even faster.

 

All that doesn't happen is letting you be the killer, too which you could run ahead and start clearing a far ahead room of the saryn.

Or just play solo/friends invite only so as to not see them.

 

We already have segregated gaming methods, people who don't like spam 4 won't use them and will take the reward of 4 spam.

You know, I want to see all these hates spam 4 making clear logs of exiting the game immediately on seeing a 4 spammer and taking none of the rewards.

[DSpite]

I think the overall mechanics are ok as they are, and that we just need DE to create more high level missions for players where this things do not happen.

 

If you took all of the Tactical Alerts so far and mixed and matched a bunch of factors from those, then stuck in a team of min-maxed players, they will still have a lot of trouble, because of all the "enhanced" parameters everything has.

 

My Radial Javelin just tickled the Kubrows in the last Alert. I had to blind them over and over and hit them 4-6 times with an exploding Glaive to drop them, and that trick normally one-shots level 50-60 units with yellow crits.

 

We wipe maps with abilities because we fight trash on low planets most of the time. If you arm a group of players in an MMO with all Artifacts armour, weapons, and trinkets, what do you think will happen when even a Dragon lands for a fight? They are probably geared to pick on Demi Gods at that stage.

 

We are waaaay over geared for normal stuff, and we STILL fight normal stuff. Why are you all wondering why we wipe entire maps?

[S7ORM]

*rant start*

i dont know how many times i've joined a public match, and see a saryn miasma over and over again, like she just flies all around with orthos prime or dual swords, and poof insta nuke to all enemies, everything just melts, " oh i see an enemy!... wait where did it go?" ... there's no fun in that at all.

some people might say she's good for speedrunning, but i say its broken game mechanic, ending every enemy in a single push of a button, should be team based, not self will " i wanna do it, so i can". *rant end*

how i would suggest, is that saryn miasma is like a cloud, spreading the area, not press 4 to nuke.

I believe you're looking for this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/452337-saryn-ability-changes-for-scalability/

[Caobie]

As a saryn player what im about to say can be taken with a grain of salt as it may contain bias but saryn's ult is fine. against anything but armored units she actually takes a damage penalty due to corrosive not being as effective agains flesh and shields. However the high damage potential is there and because negative duration is a thing the damage can get inflicted so quickly it doesnt matter. If negative duration weren't a thing her ult would be exactly as strong as it is now but it would take the full duration to inflict it all. Its less saryn is broken and more the mechanics she works off of may need looked at. I am however not against the idea of turning miasma into a cloud that could (preferably) stick around for a few seconds spreading then dissapating all while freeing saryn to move.

 

3. enemies just insta disappear from the game, vanishes in thin air. in comparison to other frames where there are more cooler and more sightseeing animations.
 

Enemies who died to miasma used to be reduced to quivering (they actually didnt noticably but one can imagine) green lumps on the ground that stuck around for about as long as normal bodies did....then they stopped and now they just vanish....and sometimes they dont even do that (though that may just be performance on my end).

 

Edit: I feel i should mention my usage of miasma is limited by my own restraint. if there are less than five enemies within what i think is its effective radius or if i dont need to clear an area to save someone, i stick to my guns

Edited May 18, 2015 by Caobie

[CelticMoss]

Well i see you found the noob saryn pretty common now.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

...ya know, this nuke playstyle is used quite often but comes with great risk. Nuking works in low lvls but becomes impossible at a certain point. You need coverage on higher lvls. (Limbo)

What you experienced is a high rank saryn on a low lvl mission. Just lean back and enjoy the shared xp mate. You won't see these guys later in the game. At least not nuking. More like waiting for a rezz most of the time.

Edited May 18, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Wolfstorm18]

Saryn's other powers are just useless, thats the reason why you see Saryns spamming miasma. 

[EchoesOfRain]

So today I tried going a duration build and...It wasn't fun at all. No matter how I build her, she's...just not fun anymore. Pressing one button isn't fun, and suffering from 2 useless abilities + 1 decent ability makes me feel way too weak.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Evry power that supports melee is consideret useless tho.

Her other playstyle buffs your melee dmg and offers a decoy+dmg+heal with augument.

She could use a buff statwise but thats about it. (Will probably happen once she's primed)

It is far from beein useless. The miasama even changes to a constant dmg support (a cloud of miasama) if you build her on duration.

Once again in this thread: it is not the games fault that people can't play stuff. Play her propperly and her other playstyles are far from beein useless.

Edited May 18, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)D4rk50ul-v2]

Yeah her nuke build is great, but so is the amazing CC and utility she has building her for duration. Don't like power spam, you are playing the wrong game. She is fine as is, if anything they need to hit Loki and make his radial disarm less OP.

I'd rather see them fix the actual mechanics that make power spam viable against all targets than just continually nerf things after they said no more nerfs.

[(XBOX)TwevOWNED]

As stated before, the reason players go nuke saryn is because of the stupid interaction with power duration it has that makes negative duration spike the damage to 13,000. That's clearing anything up until wave 40 in T4D, and even further if the team is running corrosive projection. It's not "noob Saryn" using the most viable build over the subpar duration offtank build, it's the math on her ability.

[ThePresident777]

Clearing rooms with nukes has been a huge part of Warframe's fun for 2+ years and something you'll be able to do in few games.  It's even the core of Warframe:

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

The problem is that DE has nerfed the spawn rate so the enemies are slow to come back, making players wait, like Dark Souls, Mass Effect, Gears of War, etc..

Edited May 18, 2015 by ThePresident777

[AsahiOka]

Miasma saryn, wait orthos prime? It was me right? XD

 

If you want to make missions in "normal" speed play solo, some people wants to end missions quickly. 

[(PSN)makrisbrik]

I play Saryn. I like defense and excavation missions and I can say any warframe can dominate and take all kills. I've seen rhino, mag, mesa, nova, etc. do this. I've seen my brother dominate with excalibur, and hear the other player's salty complains over the mic.

I do my best to compete and adapt. If I see a player getting all my kills its because he or she is maximizing the frame's abilities, and is very good. I don't see that as spamming. 

If I see my squad farming, I'll do the same. If you just like to melee kill, I'll leave you alone in that area. 

 

You can't dictate how a gamer plays. You have a choice of leaving if you don't like what a player is doing?

I don't like nerfs either. Ends up worst.

Its unfair to single out Saryn or generalize all Saryn players as evil spammers. 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

If Saryn is meant to be a nuke frame why does everything in her kit scream damage over time and duration? Her first ability gets really good, especially being able to stack viral procs on larger enemies. The problem lies in the math on her 4th.

Right now, there are two ways to play her: As a tanky melee dps who uses regen molt to keep her alive while she buffs her melee and procs viral damage on everyone, but in the process cut the damage on her 4th in half, or to gimp every other ability and run trans fort with fleeting and have a 13,000 huge aoe nuke for 25 energy.

4th needs to be changed to not be worse with duration mods, then she will be fine.

Her 4th ability does not get weaker if you have duration.

Miasma does not do the big burst damage with long diration but it does the same total damage just spread out as a DoT.

(Like Energy Vampire being used for damage; via short duration Well of Life + Energy Vampire)

[EchoesOfRain]

I think I actually found a playstyle that I like...Basically a Tank only build, using only molt to attract enemy fire and to gain health (and maybe contagion if going melee), meanwhile relying on my weapons to get kills. Hardly use Miasma or Venom, but I'm having a lot more fun than spam killing everything

[ThePresident777]

9000 damage in 30 seconds is 300 DPS.  A maxed Lato does 3k+ and costs 0 energy.

[(PSN)makrisbrik]

I think I actually found a playstyle that I like...Basically a Tank only build, using only molt to attract enemy fire and to gain health (and maybe contagion if going melee), meanwhile relying on my weapons to get kills. Hardly use Miasma or Venom, but I'm having a lot more fun than spam killing everything

Nice! 

[Somerandom17]

You people are complaining about Saryn being OP... How about you take a look at Mesa.

[Rakosta_Kai]

I feel like you just enjoy easy targets.

Half-baked ideas make for easy targets.

When the argument has a selfish under-pinning, it's typically a very simple one to challenge.

 

 Every time we have this discussion you're completely unable to keep on topic and decide to attack me directly.

 

If you feel like it's a personal attack, I can stop using your quotes.

I don't want anyone to feel personally attacked.

...It's not that kind of party.

 

I punch holes in nerf herding arguments and the impetus behind them.

You tend to take the role of advocate in nerf herding threads.

 

It's important to note that when one has an idea that can have an effect on those other than just themselves, they should expect to have that idea challenged.

 

 

The main body of that post is irrelevant. You've said nothing. Now please try again, a little more on topic this time. I'll reiterate my points, and I'd like to you make a reply that goes after those point and not the person making them.

 

Actually, it's a fairly accurate synopsis of the under-pinnings of most of the nerf threads this forum has had in the last 2 years.

Were we to go to every nerf thread we'd find these as the reasoning behind the bulk of them:

Anecdotes

Feel/Felt Arguments

Expressions of inconvenience

Expressions of a "lack of fairness".

Assertions of things players don't have a reasonable concept of like Power Creep and Balance.

 

Most of the issues could have been resolved with the ignore function. This is because what is actually at issue is the attitude/habits of another player.

Instead, most of the arguments move to affect the play experience of everyone who can possibly be affected in order to make the person complaining feel better.

 

So the real question becomes...

"Why do some people feel it's appropriate to affect the way everyone else plays the game?"

 

 

I've offered a suggestion of changing the way fleeting expertise behaves by giving it a downside more related to its usage...

 

This is the suggestion where instead of having it offer negative duration, it instead offers negative range?!?!

Yeah... That's not extreme at all...

I don't think much of your suggestion as it offers to break every build using FE to convenience those of you annoyed with spamming.

It also doesn't fit into the theme of compromise you just espoused.

As such, it's half-baked...

 

 

 

 We need to change our reward structure to keep high level players playing high level content, and we need to change the way enemy scaling works to make that high level content actually difficult and not just a gear check. We need guns and abilities that are appropriate for every level of content. We're just talking about abilities here though, so you don't need to address that other stuff.

 

I agree with every one of these basic ideas/directions noted here.

 

The key will be how it gets done...

 

I'd posit that we need to:

   re-define what is reward worthy and actually reward it.

   Create meaningful, accessible, and appropriately rewarding content that challenges the gear we have

    Synchronizes us or the enemy with our average gear levels when in group content that we are outside the level of.

    Note: Ideally the enemy not  the player. It would mean that an enemy is always a challenge in group content regardless of our gear set.

 

A good example would be games that don't actually have enemy levels...

The enemies are always x number of levels different from the player depending on game difficulty settings.

Level difficulty determines the degree of disparity, enemy count, and loot value.

 

A scenario like that would keep a Saryn in a low level group from dropping a (-)duration Miasma in every room because the enemies would survive it and be aggroed on Saryn only.

Or... Saryn would because she wanted to tank the aggro for her team.

 

 

I've said it before... Every issue in this game doesn't require a nerf.

 

They are typically symptoms calling for elegant solutions.

 

 

 

 

 

[Demon.King]

You people are complaining about Saryn being OP... How about you take a look at Mesa.

 

The only difference is one is a one time cast that kills most things instantly, while the other must stand still for a while to do the same thing. Totally a valid comparison.

 

Also, neither of them are op, it's more that so many frames were nerfed to be UP that makes it seem so. Keep on with the nerfs and WF will turn into COD very soon.

[vaugahn]

I'm just going to chop out all of the first bit and address relevant points:

 

Anecdotes

Feel/Felt Arguments

Expressions of inconvenience

Expressions of a "lack of fairness".

Assertions of things players don't have a reasonable concept of like Power Creep and Balance.

 

This is the core problem with this argument. This is why it's weak. These are also the most common defenses of weak arguments I see around here. Instead of addressing the point, you address the motivation. The motivation is of no concern to you, to me, or to anyone else. Attacking motivations might as well be a reply to a different thread for all the good it does to support your point. It is completely irrelevant, to put it simply. And yet, many cannot look past it. 

 

You are not challenging or punching holes in arguments any more than me outright insulting you would challenge or punch holes in yours. If we look at your reply to the actual content, here's what we find:

 

This is the suggestion where instead of having it offer negative duration, it instead offers negative range?!?!

Yeah... That's not extreme at all...

I don't think much of your suggestion as it offers to break every build using FE to convenience those of you annoyed with spamming.

It also doesn't fit into the theme of compromise you just espoused.

As such, it's half-baked...

 

Nothing. Why is it half-baked? Why is it extreme? How do you know that's a suggestion meant simply to inconvenience? To boil that reply down to its simplest form, it's just "That's a selfish suggestion and is therefore bad". Can you see the critical error made there?

 

Energy efficiency has long been regarded as the weakest point in a weak energy system. That's not something many would dispute. Fleeting Expertise offers free energy efficiency in exchange for a malus on a stat efficiency frames don't need. The core idea of corrupted mods seems to be trade-offs. More damage for less accuracy, less strength for more range, that kind of thing. You're sacrificing something to get a benefit. That is not necessarily the case for FE, as the stat you're sacrificing doesn't matter for the stat you're building up. It's a full benefit with no consequence. Note that FE is not the only corrupted mod like this, mind you, so don't think I'm just going after one.

 

I agree with every one of these basic ideas/directions noted here.

 

The key will be how it gets done...

 

I'd posit that we need to:

   re-define what is reward worthy and actually reward it.

   Create meaningful, accessible, and appropriately rewarding content that challenges the gear we have

    Synchronizes us or the enemy with our average gear levels when in group content that we are outside the level of.

    Note: Ideally the enemy not  the player. It would mean that an enemy is always a challenge in group content regardless of our gear set.

 

A good example would be games that don't actually have enemy levels...

The enemies are always x number of levels different from the player depending on game difficulty settings.

Level difficulty determines the degree of disparity, enemy count, and loot value.

 

A scenario like that would keep a Saryn in a low level group from dropping a (-)duration Miasma in every room because the enemies would survive it and be aggroed on Saryn only.

Or... Saryn would because she wanted to tank the aggro for her team.

 

And here's the best part! We are both aiming for the same thing. I've often suggested moving Warframe away from the hard level scaling we have currently to a more flexible system. My proposal was to scale enemy intelligence and unit composition with level, though having level scale freely is also an excellent idea.

 

Keep in mind that ideal scenarios are not always possible, and player power will have to be adjusted. That means both buffs and nerfs, many of our tools are tragically underperforming even at low levels and that's very bad for balance as well.

 

I've said it before... Every issue in this game doesn't require a nerf.

 

Would you like me to retrieve a post I've made in dozens of threads? You've probably even seen it. I've long held that just buffing or just nerfing is totally counterproductive. Each change needs to be considered on its individual merits, not blind adherence or opposition to the type of change it is. 

 

We're arguing for the same thing.

[(PSN)General_Favel]

Except that Saryn deals about 10 times the damage of other p42w abilities.

10 times less range too

[Valkyrion]

people here seems to dont understand, im not asking for a nerf, im asking for a change to reduce laziness from people playing saryn and ruining other people experience.

mesa needs to stay put and let the enemies come, excal need to draw attention because radial javelin only works if enemies have LoS, ember is like saryn but a lot worse, ash needs to be aimed first and have max enemies count, mag have a long animation, volt needs to have objects to be effective.... and the list goes on.

 

with saryn, you just need the enemy to be in the radius, and poof gone, thats probably the most laziest thing i know in warframe.

[Shiichibukai]

10 times less range too

Agreed. The range isnt THAT great to be considered OP honestly...Yea it can clear out a room just not a WHOLE room like Mesa or exca in the past.