Daikyu Bow Need Buff Or Something

[Yastin]

Sustained DPS is not the only thing that makes a weapon.

 

Also, the term 'mastery fodder' is such a stupid term this community throws around. The only thing that makes a weapon 'mastery fodder' is that you, the player, does not want to use it but you want the mastery exp from it. A weapon is not fodder because it is bad, situational, or ineffective. They are fodder because you don't want to use/keep it.

 

Pedantry at it's best.

 

A weapon is made to kill things. The Daikyu is the worst bow at killing things. Therefore, it is indeed ineffective, situational, and bad.

 

Do you commonly find people saying "I want to use something ineffective today"? So yes, Fodder does mean it's a weapon I don't want to use.

 

I do wish it was better, though. Not the best, not super-awesome so I never need anything else. I just wish that the Daikyu, the coolest-looking bow in the game, did not blatantly lie with words like "power" and "strength" when it expresses neither.

 

I WANT to WANT to use this weapon. But any time I equip it, the game becomes less fun, because my weapon is not even comparable to my team-mates. And no matter how good you are at surviving, reviving, etc. you are, you will always feel less useful if the few shots you manage to get off on heavies and such aren't even as effective as the guy sitting next to you with a vanilla Paris.

[trst]

Pedantry at it's best.

 

A weapon is made to kill things. The Daikyu is the worst bow at killing things. Therefore, it is indeed ineffective, situational, and bad.

 

Do you commonly find people saying "I want to use something ineffective today"? So yes, Fodder does mean it's a weapon I don't want to use.

 

I do wish it was better, though. Not the best, not super-awesome so I never need anything else. I just wish that the Daikyu, the coolest-looking bow in the game, did not blatantly lie with words like "power" and "strength" when it expresses neither.

 

I WANT to WANT to use this weapon. But any time I equip it, the game becomes less fun, because my weapon is not even comparable to my team-mates. And no matter how good you are at surviving, reviving, etc. you are, you will always feel less useful if the few shots you manage to get off on heavies and such aren't even as effective as the guy sitting next to you with a vanilla Paris.

And yet the Daikyu is anything but ineffective. My personal experiences with this weapon have been plenty effective when dragging it through things like Draco and t5 Syndicate Dailies. Compaired to my teammates, sure I'm not doing as much as the guy running the Boltor Prime he's forma'd eight times but it's doing as much as if not more than the person who brought their Quanta or Penta.

 

Is it the best? No. But it is still an effective weapon, anyone competent with aiming it can compete against plenty of other weapons.

[Yastin]

And yet the Daikyu is anything but ineffective. My personal experiences with this weapon have been plenty effective when dragging it through things like Draco and t5 Syndicate Dailies. Compaired to my teammates, sure I'm not doing as much as the guy running the Boltor Prime he's forma'd eight times but it's doing as much as if not more than the person who brought their Quanta or Penta.

 

Is it the best? No. But it is still an effective weapon, anyone competent with aiming it can compete against plenty of other weapons.

 

Just not against any other bow with a similarly competent user. Which is nonsense.

[trst]

Just not against any other bow with a similarly competent user. Which is nonsense.

I've actually not seen anyone using a bow other than the Daikyu for a long time but thats besides the point.

 

Not all weapons need to be on par with eachother (within their type) nor is there a reason for the Daikyu to be 'better' than all or even half of the other bows. It's different from every other bow and is capable of being just as effective as them.

 

I also should have elaborated more on my previous statment that "Sustained DPS is not the only thing that makes a weapon.". Where damage is concerned there are still things like burst DPS and can go in hand with some utility aspects as well as the base damage. Also factors such as ease of use, ammo economy, and avalability. Just because the MK1 Paris can have better sustained DPS than the Daikyu does not mean it is weak, just that in situations where sustained DPS matters above all else then the MK1 Paris can outpreform the Daikyu.

[AXCrusnik]

Hey it's true.  I've been playing enough to test things with my eyes.  But I have took the the Daikyu to Simaris over 50 times literally.  I've tried all combinations.  For example if you happen to proc viral, the charge time in itself makes that Viral proc pointless.  You literally have to put all speed mods on to really have the benefits show.  But those test mean nothing, why?  Because in a real mission, those enemies will die before your arrow even leaves your hand.  And you can't blame your team at all.  BUT when you do finally get your 7 hit kill with 1 bow boy DOES IT FEEL GOOD.   

 

This bow is really meant for solo and being a *giggles* "support" Tenno.  The bleed procs are NASTY if you're using -----------

 

For right now, if you have l33t 360noscope aim due to other games, I would suggest putting 5 forma in....that's the requirement honestly...from there you can hold your own.....every now n then your teammates WILL kill your targets..which is fine you guys are a team..but YOU know deep down inside you're SALTY

I put 3 forma in mine and am using Continuous Misery with it and can come out with pretty high damage out in comparison to other players in T3 games. I was considering going more but If I stick with my current status build I won't need the points.

 

Yeah it charges slow, yeah that can mean you kills get taken by teammates... but that doesn't make the weapon difficult or annoying to use for me. Maybe I just choose better enemies to shoot at than you? because it doesn't happen nearly enough to bother me the way it seems to bother you.

 

You may be the saltiest Daikyu user in Warframe but that doesn't mean I'm salty about it too. I actually enjoy playing around with weapons that don't strictly follow the established meta, so don't go trying to project your feelings onto every Daikyu user.

Edited May 23, 2015 by AXCrusnik

[SoIaris]

I've taken my daikyu to a t4 surv for over 40 minutes, it's not bad, just build the right elemental combos with event mods for 100% status and you SHOULD one shot everything, not always due to randomized procs

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

Daikyu is too OP.

 

Oh wait, are we talking about PvP?

[mooser6]

Anyone seen the movie War of Arrows? Bad &#! bow fighting movie. Daikyu should hit like the "half pounder"

Status my azz

Edited May 24, 2015 by mooser6

[XaelathRavenstorm]

Such a waste for such a good looking bow :(

I may still even forma it cuz it just looks Badass!

[Ishki88]

-snip-

 

 

You lost me when you said "don't go trying to project your feelings." So I'm going to ignore most of what you said respectfully.

 

This is my build I use, and it has taken me through many T4Def Wave 40...which is a decent benchmark for me (minus Simaris)

 

 

My whole thing is "my fun" doesn't start until the game pushes me into a corner.  And nothing in this game does that for me until I go past what some might call "POST-DEAC."  So for me to keep playing this game I have to play high level until DE finds away to make low level things better.  I need high tier weapon variety also.  Which is why I wanted te Daikyu to be atleast B+ A tier in my book.  

 

But since it isn't in my book, it is OK because Dread is still better and I can still use other primaries.

 

I just don't want DE to ignore looking at the Daikyu......shoot all the bows (and shotguns) because majority rule says "it's a status bow."  Other players have already provided the reasons on why claiming "status bow" is backwards and I really don't like repeating myself so..derpy derp GG have fun

 

Edit:  And another thing when I do take this bow or any bow past the point of no return.  I do have to rely on using my secondary and powers a lot more than me using my bow.  It's just that from my personal experience I know when @$%# is about to get real  A lot of times people will not make adjustments mid game.  And from there they end up getting downed and sabotaging the entire mission.  Also I understand what you said.  I

 

I'm going to start adding in "Generally Speaking" to my direct hard hitting comments (I probably won't.)  I'm not going to apologize or retract what I said because there are MANY....many players who do get salty from others killing enemies faster than them.  So those comments are directed towards them.  Maybe I shouldn't of said "YOU."  But maybe I should of because I'm directing my comments towards them :^)  Didn't meant to directly offend you even though I quoted ya :^)

Edited May 23, 2015 by Ishki88

[TARINunit9]

Whoever is trying to say the Daikyu is a status weapon is flagrantly incorrect (no disrespect intended)

 

The REAL draw of the Daikyu, other than the projectile speed, is trading crits for raw base damage. You take the slots that you normally reserve for Vital Sense/Point Strike/Hammer Shot/whatever, and instead slot in Piercing Caliber/LethalTorrent/damage mods of your choice

[Otaiken]

Sustained DPS is not the only thing that makes a weapon.

 

I'll put it simply.

 

Both Dread and DK with proper mods will kill the level 60-80 grunt in one hit. The game spawns many grunts. So with Dread you can kill 10 of them quickly, with DK you can kill 10 of them considerably slower. Those grunts do considerable damage at those levels...

 

Then comes the big enemies. Let's say Dread will kill them in 3 shots and DK in 2 shots (neither is gonna one shot at this point). Hell, I'll give you Dread 4 shots and DK 2 shots. The Dread will still kill them faster considering its speed and you can stay more mobile in the meantime.

 

That said.... depending on the build Dread will actually do more damage per shot than DK anyway. While still being faster.

 

Sustained DPS should be treated more like a situational damage. In situation with high number of lower health enemies sustained DPS will prevail while retaining most of its ability to kill single targets efficiently. Unfortunately... the kind of situations you face in Warframe are exactly the type where you would favor sustained DPS, hence the problem with snipers/shotguns etc.

 

All I'm saying is that DK has nothing to make up for its speed. It's not the damage and certainly not the status chance. Not to mention the frustration in multiplayer when Soma wielding friendlies will mow down the targets before you can shoot. DK is flawed weapon by design, that does not prevent people from being able to enjoy it, but it doesn't change the facts.

 

So DE either has to completely revamp the enemy types and spawns or actually take the time to optimize burst DMG (or frontloaded DMG) weapons to perform well in this type of game. I thought DE finally got it when they released Opticor, yet the release of DK tells me that might not be the case.

Edited May 23, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[ashrah]

put 4 event status element...this new corrupted fire rate mod.....and pircing mod u will see how its weak

[trst]

I'll put it simply.

 

Both Dread and DK with proper mods will kill the level 60-80 grunt in one hit. The game spawns many grunts. So with Dread you can kill 10 of them quickly, with DK you can kill 10 of them considerably slower. Those grunts do considerable damage at those levels...

 

Then comes the big enemies. Let's say Dread will kill them in 3 shots and DK in 2 shots (neither is gonna one shot at this point). Hell, I'll give you Dread 4 shots and DK 2 shots. The Dread will still kill them faster considering its speed and you can stay more mobile in the meantime.

 

That said.... depending on the build Dread will actually do more damage per shot than DK anyway. While still being faster.

 

Sustained DPS should be treated more like a situational damage. In situation with high number of lower health enemies sustained DPS will prevail while retaining most of its ability to kill single targets efficiently. Unfortunately... the kind of situations you face in Warframe are exactly the type where you would favor sustained DPS, hence the problem with snipers/shotguns etc.

 

All I'm saying is that DK has nothing to make up for its speed. It's not the damage and certainly not the status chance. Not to mention the frustration in multiplayer when Soma wielding friendlies will mow down the targets before you can shoot. DK is flawed weapon by design, that does not prevent people from being able to enjoy it, but it doesn't change the facts.

 

So DE either has to completely revamp the enemy types and spawns or actually take the time to optimize burst DMG (or frontloaded DMG) weapons to perform well in this type of game. I thought DE finally got it when they released Opticor, yet the release of DK tells me that might not be the case.

This all goes back to a previous comment I made:

 

The problem with bows is that the Dread has outclassed every bow (debatable on the Paris Prime) to such an extent that any bow released will be compaired to and fall short of it.

 

Comparing the Daikyu to the Dread is like comparing any primary to the Boltor Prime. It's difficult to make fair comparisons of anything to something that is incredibly overpowered.

 

My Dread right now has something like 1.6k slash with 125% crit rate and 5.6x crit damage with twice the speed of the Daikyu (with both Speed Trigger and Vile Acceleration) with only two forma and a non-complete build. The Dread outclasses *every bow (*personally can't say for the Paris Prime, never built it) to such an extent that either the Dread needs a massive nerf or every bow needs gigantic buffs. And considering we're talking about one thing being better than 4*5 other things it is more likely to have the Dread nerfed than 4*5 weapons being buffed.

Edited May 23, 2015 by trst

[(PSN)spotscat]

not every new weapon needs to be the next "best weapon out there" let it just be a lower tier bow

[AXCrusnik]

 Didn't meant to directly offend you even though I quoted ya :^)

Right on. The post I was reacting to came off as unwarranted aggression to people who actually enjoy the Daikyu for what it is.

 

Whether or not DE buffs the Daikyu I don't want them to change it from a status focused weapon to a crit simply because a part of the community thinks "status bows are backwards"

[krsnik666]

i face palm a lot on this forums these days but it gives me a good laugh. The thing people dont seem to be understanding is that Dread, Paris Prime and Daikyu are bows sustainable dps is in invalid factor so a few milliseconds between fire rates is nothing. rifles have higher sustainable dps deal with it. Daikyus power matches Dreads crits. people seem to be looking at bows like rifles when they should be looking at them like sniper rifles at least.

 

 

Okay, I'm gonna lay some math down here. Like I have been doing since this weapons release...

 

To start, a few principles;

 

Impact/Puncture/Slash are balanced stat-proc wise, based on percent of total damage. This is good and mathematical. It makes Spock a happy Vulcan.

 

Elemental procs are not weighted against total percent of damage, instead being given a straight percentage to happen instead of a physical proc. This makes Spock cry glorious Vulcan tears.

 

With one or two elemental mods equipped, you add one element to the IPS for a chance at being procced. 1/4=.25 A twenty five percent chance, with IPS's 75% being split unevenly amongst it's three components.

 

Add another element? That's 1/5=.20=20%

 

Your "status bow" has either a 25% or a 20% chance of proccing one of the elements you've built it for.

 

This means, to guarantee a status in a mathematically ideal environment, would take 4-5 shots, each of which takes about 2 seconds.

 

The Daikyu takes 8-10 seconds to do the status proc you want.

 

In conclusion;

 

A 100% CHANCE OF A 20% CHANCE IS STILL A BLOODY 20% CHANCE.

 

8-10 SECONDS BETWEEN STATUS PROCS YOU WANT IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE STATUS WEAPON.

 

Thank you.

you seem to be calculating status wrong unless they have changed it recently. Its weighted by the percentage of the total damage if you have a high elemental damage then anything else it will proc more frequently and there is a chance of a 2nd proc aswell. Pretty sure when this whole status thing came out the devs confirmed this on the live stream and only changed how status worked on continuous fire weapons. unless i missed something. so yes i will concede that the proc you want wont happen all the time but it will occur more often then the others which i can confirm when im not insta killing any mob. proced blast 48% of the time puncture and electricity 25% slash and impact 2%. I dont know why your daikyu is so slow taking you 2 seconds doesnt even take me 1 second.

[wtrmlnjuc]

The main issue with the bow lies in the mechanics of Status. It's not the bow's fault, but Status is still highly subject to RNG. You aren't 100% procing your elemental, you're procing either the elemental or the slash/impact/puncture that's already innate in the bow. Which is the main issue with it in PvE. Its utility (as would a bunch of weapons) would be much better if status proc'd individually for both S/I/P and elementals.

[Kaotyke]

The main issue with the bow lies in the mechanics of Status. It's not the bow's fault, but Status is still highly subject to RNG. You aren't 100% procing your elemental, you're procing either the elemental or the slash/impact/puncture that's already innate in the bow. Which is the main issue with it in PvE. Its utility (as would a bunch of weapons) would be much better if status proc'd individually for both S/I/P and elementals.

So maybe if Bows and Snipers Proc'ed all the damage types at the same time....

[Yastin]

I've actually not seen anyone using a bow other than the Daikyu for a long time but thats besides the point.

 

Not all weapons need to be on par with eachother (within their type) nor is there a reason for the Daikyu to be 'better' than all or even half of the other bows. It's different from every other bow and is capable of being just as effective as them.

 

I also should have elaborated more on my previous statment that "Sustained DPS is not the only thing that makes a weapon.". Where damage is concerned there are still things like burst DPS and can go in hand with some utility aspects as well as the base damage. Also factors such as ease of use, ammo economy, and avalability. Just because the MK1 Paris can have better sustained DPS than the Daikyu does not mean it is weak, just that in situations where sustained DPS matters above all else then the MK1 Paris can outpreform the Daikyu.

 

Mk1 Paris beats Daikyu in;

 

Fire-rate

Crits

Damage

Headshot damage (4x hs with crits)

Crowds (fire-rate and just as good knock-thru damage)

Short range ease of use

 

Daikyu beats Mk1 Paris at

 

Long range ease of use? (debatable due to 5 second hold limit and long-charge)

Looks (I put this one in here for myself, some think it's hideous)

Status(Which is broken.)

 

If it's significantly worse than the weapon you get to start. To turn on the game. Then it needs fixing.

[Yastin]

i face palm a lot on this forums these days but it gives me a good laugh. The thing people dont seem to be understanding is that Dread, Paris Prime and Daikyu are bows sustainable dps is in invalid factor so a few milliseconds between fire rates is nothing. rifles have higher sustainable dps deal with it. Daikyus power matches Dreads crits. people seem to be looking at bows like rifles when they should be looking at them like sniper rifles at least.

 

 

you seem to be calculating status wrong unless they have changed it recently. Its weighted by the percentage of the total damage if you have a high elemental damage then anything else it will proc more frequently and there is a chance of a 2nd proc aswell. Pretty sure when this whole status thing came out the devs confirmed this on the live stream and only changed how status worked on continuous fire weapons. unless i missed something. so yes i will concede that the proc you want wont happen all the time but it will occur more often then the others which i can confirm when im not insta killing any mob. proced blast 48% of the time puncture and electricity 25% slash and impact 2%. I dont know why your daikyu is so slow taking you 2 seconds doesnt even take me 1 second.

 

Read the post. The way you described status working has ONLY EVER BEEN HOW PHYSICAL STATUS CHANCE WORK. Elemental damage has not been weighted like that. If you're seeing it that way it was a stealth-buff. And only your own, as my own Daikyu with 240% Blast damage has procced it less than 1/4 of my shots.

 

Also, with crits, a Vanilla Paris does 432 damage with 4x headshot bonus MK1 does 288.

Daikyu does 350 with 2x headshots and fires far, far slower. No reliable crit-build possible.

 

Oh, and Dread, which Daikyu's power "equals" does 560 damage with crits, guaranteed. Plus the 4x headshots, 25% chance of red-crits, and stacking elemental mods after instead of speed mods.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Yastin

[Snipehunter67]

What worries me about the Daikyu is that it has the sniper rifle disease.

It makes sense for the Daikyu to have sniper characteristics since sniping seems to be what it's intended for.

Unfortunately like most if not all the sniper weapons, the drawbacks too heavily outweigh the advantages.

DK isn't even accurate enough to take advantage of heavy caliber for sniping.

 

If DE is still throwing weapons out there that have these issues, they don't seem to have a handle on what people don't like about the other sniper weapons.

 

So, compared to the other bows, we have a sniper bow thats slower, lower dps, lower damage for the love of God, And of course the long draw time and short hold time.

 

What really gets me is they seem to intend the DK concept as a heavy draw massive bow, so why should it do less damage than the other bows?

 I have hopes that DE will buff it simply to bring it more into scale with the other bows.

[Ashnal]

Why not? Bows have innate punchthrough and can hit several enemies with a single arrow.

 

Not saying Daikyu does or doesn't need a buff, but dismissing the weapon because it's status based is silly IMO.

 

Why do all bows have to be one hit kill crit monsters?

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the bows and the role of slow firing weapons, and status effects. Let's clear that up.

 

First, bows DO NOT have innate punch through. This is a common misconception since they can kill many enemies in a line without punch through mods, akin to weapons with punch through equipped. What they do have is the copse pinning feature. There's no official name for it, but it used to be called physics impact damage back in damage 1.0. If and ONLY if it kills a target, that target's corpse will be flung backwards along the projectile's trajectory, also causing damage to any living enemies within that trajectory and grabbing their corpses until they all land pinned to a wall. The key difference between this mechanic and punch through mods is that it DOES NOT occur if the projectile does not kill. Bows also cannot shoot through solid objects like other weapons modded for punch through. So if you hit a target witha  bow and the shot does not kill that target, you get no punch through like effect.

 

On to the Daikyu, status effects, and slow firing weapons. Status effects are only useful when the target of them would live for long enough for it to be useful. Since the best 'status' effect is death, causing death is preferable to any other effect. A corpse is harmless after all. Your assumption about the Daikyu being good for delivering status effects is a poor one. A Daikyu shot that fails to kill its target will affect that single target with one status effect, it will not go through to the enemies behind it because the target did not die (see first paragraph). You can fix this by adding punch through mods if you wish. However delivering one status effect every couple of seconds toa  single enemy is hardly effective when you could just be wielding crit bow and killing those enemies instead. Even the crit bows would make better status weapons since a bow liek the dread can easily get 60% status chance, but can fire much faster than the daikyu by releasing early. Then of course therre's the real status weapons. Ones like the Burston Prime, Grakata, Torid, and Glaxion. All of those weapons have good fire rates or AoE for spraying down groups of enemies with an assault of status procs. Even a status modded Tonkor is better than the Daikyu at delivering status effects.

 

The point I'm tying to make is that any weapon that is slow firing and single target is the worst for spreading status effects. Slow firing weapons need to be good at taking down heavy targets that other guns would have to take time pumping rounds into to make up for their slow fire rate. The lack of crit on the Daikyu makes it a poor choice for that. Delivering a status effect when you could be just killing the enemy is suboptimal as well. The only time inflicting status effects is good is when you are incapable of killing enemies quickly, which only happens when their levels start to inflate.

[Yastin]

-Snip-

 

Well put! Though, with one minor thing... Bows do have tiny innate punch-through. That's why they still work with normal punchthrough mods. It's only like 0.2 meters, though, so it kills through shields and can go through tiny physical barriers like hand-rails. Not enough by default to go through an enemy.

[Ashnal]

Well put! Though, with one minor thing... Bows do have tiny innate punch-through. That's why they still work with normal punchthrough mods. It's only like 0.2 meters, though, so it kills through shields and can go through tiny physical barriers like hand-rails. Not enough by default to go through an enemy.

Thanks.

 

I can't say I've ever noticed that before. I don't run any punch through on my bows and I've never noticed being able to shoot through lancer shields. I'll have to look out for it. I can't imagine that's "why" they work with punch through mods though. I'd imagine they would work with those mods regardless of innate punch through or not like any other weapon.