Is The Juggernaut Your Idea Of "fun?"

[DiabolusUrsus]

*This is not a complaint about the "difficulty" of the Juggernaut, and the "40 minutes" quip should be an obvious exaggeration. It's a complaint about the shallow and unimaginative nature of the enemy facilitated by a single-minded approach to how to play Warframe "correctly." While the fight doesn't necessarily take the better part of an hour, it is artificially drawn out through irritating rule-bending because nothing else can actually slow us down at this point. 

 

I'm completely serious here. 

 

You have two options: Cheese it with overpowered CC, or run in circles taking potshots at it for 40 minutes until its pathing screws up and you just stand there and shoot it.*

 

I'm sure it would go down a lot quicker if I were to bother with "meta" builds on weapons I don't particularly enjoy using, but that brings up yet another issue - when the thing dies too quickly. 

 

It's got telegraphs. It's got weak-spots. It's got CC. It's got the completely-identical-in-function instant-kill attacks with different animations and projectile graphics that have become the dominant source of "challenge" in Warframe. 

 

The model is impressive. The Juggernaut is a visually stunning enemy (though it looks more like what DE ought to have had in mind for Phorid...) That is, however, the only good thing I can really say about it. 

 

Is this your idea of a good time? Is this engaging? Is it satisfying to kill enemies like this?

 

We're right back to where we were at the beginning of the game with flavorless bullet-sponge enemies. The only real difference is that the enemies can fight back now, so instead of slapping on Redirection and Vitality to attain immortality, we're slapping on Corrupted Mods to abuse our powers. 

 

This sucks. This really, really, sucks. 

 

We're way too powerful, with little to no checks on our power. As a result, our enemies need to be given borderline rule-breaking abilities in order to put up a decent fight. Unfortunately, this also means that a "decent fight" can be accurately described as a tedious and at times simply frustrating experience that isn't worth a second run-through without specific loot in mind. 

 

This is why balance is important, even in PVE.

 

This is why 25 energy ultimates are inappropriate.

 

This is why creating content specifically to please the game's meta is a bad idea. 

 

Warframe used to show promise. A promise that made up for its clunky mechanics and lackluster gameplay. Now it's like a movie franchise with more than one-too-many sequels forced to resort to sad attempts at one-upping itself to hold our interest. 

 

At least it's pretty to look at. 

Edited June 6, 2015 by DiabolusUrsus

[Stormandreas]

No. I didn't enjoy fighting it. It shouldn't have Tar Moa CC, along with a Radial CC, ALONG WITH a nigh undodgable charge.

Its design is really good yes, but it's just another massive bullet sponge. I actually ran out of ammo for both Primary AND secondary, then died, and had to revert to melee (and this was when using my tanky Chroma too!)

So no, it's not that fun. Its interesting yes, but not incredibly engaging to fight. Similarly with the Bursa's.

[Konga]

No. I didn't enjoy fighting it. It shouldn't have Tar Moa CC, along with a Radial CC, ALONG WITH a nigh undodgable charge.

Its design is really good yes, but it's just another massive bullet sponge. I actually ran out of ammo for both Primary AND secondary, then died, and had to revert to melee (and this was when using my tanky Chroma too!)

So no, it's not that fun. Its interesting yes, but not incredibly engaging to fight. Similarly with the Bursa's.

 

I mean.. Isnt that why it has weak spots? It says on it,"impenetrable armour," so why aim for the armour and not the weak points? :/ Aim for the belly and use ammo for that only. Surely you can murder the infested around for more ammo, right?

[R34LM]

Haven't faced it yet, but after what I have heard, I won't waste my time. I play for fun; dealing with enemies that are supposedly made to compete against our "oh-so godly builds" is usually never fun.

Edited June 5, 2015 by R34LM

[Archistopheles]

My idea of fun is a whole lot of alcohol, and a few dozen people who are "open minded", but that would make a terrible, terrible boss design.

On topic:

We're way too powerful, with little to no checks on our power

I'm the little voice reminding those who get mad at people asking for nerfs, or complaining about "power creep" that this is the consequence. There's no challenge worthy of a demi-god.

[KlarVyvern]

I think it is. Something requiring a bit of thought, nothing more. In time, I hope there will be more balance to the game and by then it will surely follow suit.

[notlamprey]

At least it's pretty to look at. 

 

I didn't much care for any part of BSS, really.

 

Maybe they just didn't have time to make anything better than what we got. Maybe some corners were cut right now in the interest of devoting more time to other stuff down the road that's probably more important.

 

It does feel a bit like the difficulty in Warframe is less of a smooth curve and more of a cliff, whose face is punctuated with smaller cliffs. I can appreciate that it's actually quite difficult to make gameplay feel like anything in between "falling asleep" and "(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)"

 

I don't really have much to add, actually. I'm mainly just hoping that some good information comes out of all this and gets filtered through to core dev.

[noveltyhero]

Yes I agree, make it immune to being slowed or that being reduced. Maybe enemies should get a new attribute "Tenacity", determining their resistance to CC, so we don't get extremes as much.

 

Here are some ideas:

His knockback wave, also purges debuffs from him and allies as well as granting immunity to it for a while.

 

There are two types of tar (I cannot tell from his animations when he will do it, so this needs to be addressed), slowing and toxic, not both. Non-tanky frames really get screwed here, cannot move out of it in time neither can they tank it >.<

 

Melee is more effective against it, you can shoot off (temporarily, it regens) parts of armor on his body, so co-ordinating with your team would be necessary to be effective , a single Soma will not cut it.

 

Environmental things? Dodging his charge will work in your favor, he get's stunned.

 

 

-basically general things to improve him :/

So no, it's not that fun. Its interesting yes, but not incredibly engaging to fight. Similarly with the Bursa's.

I swear the Bursa's are just broken? I don't know, small excavator sitting in corner spamming some blue wave....

 

Made me laugh XD

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Juggernaut is a sponge for a high-tier build, it's going to be a nightmare for any newbie or mid-tier player.

 

Then, we have wonky attack patterns and attacks that uncover its weakspots, this turns the fight into a waiting game. Player cannot do anything that would shorten the fight, no risky sliding under it to hit it's belly, you have to wait for it to feel like showing it to you.

 

Then there are attacks itself, with huge range, area of effect and damage, coupled with aforementioned durability, it's a bit too much. Juggernaut could easily get split, into glass-cannony ranged variant, and melee only tank, and I guess it would feel much better than what we have now.

 

Generally, I'm not against tanky enemies nor enemies that can deal huge damage, but then we need to be able to reliably damage them (e.g. force weakspot by doing something, as much as I consider Lech Kril to be pretty much a broken design, and that's mostly to how glitchy he is, it would be better than waiting game) and clearly telegraphing their attacks (like, is there anything more annoying than Ballista OHKing even the tankiest frame that was not only 100m away but behind them?).

 

Current Juggernaut feels like a bit too much at once imho.

[(PSN)RedChili69]

Whining, it's what the community does best. So new people will have troubles fighting it, good.

Edited June 5, 2015 by (PS4)RedChili69

[Kasumi-]

It needs to stop being able to charge in any direction regardless of where it's facing.

[noveltyhero]

I mean.. Isnt that why it has weak spots? It says on it,"impenetrable armour," so why aim for the armour and not the weak points? :/ Aim for the belly and use ammo for that only. Surely you can murder the infested around for more ammo, rig

Even the weak spots, not much to them unfortunately, not dynamic-y stuff, just belly and top green hairs every once in a while. Not much to do otherwise which is what makes the fight boring :/

[Vargras]

Juggernaut is a sponge for a high-tier build, it's going to be a nightmare for any newbie or mid-tier player.

Newbies aren't going to fight it during the alert, unless they get taxi'd. Mid-tier players will likely be in a party for it. What's the problem, exactly?

 

On-topic: Enemy with telegraphed attacks, apparent weak spots, and enough HP that it actually earns the moniker of "Juggernaut". People say the game is too easy, and the moment anything that resembles a challenge is introduced, people say it's too hard. I don't get the complaints.

[Blackout751]

Not interesting to fight. The fact me and my clanmates spent nearly 20 minutes fighting a level 68 one was probably what led to me getting a warning point.

 

- It doesn't need to move at the speed of light when DE specifically said it's supposed to have weight in its movements, which is the opposite of a charge that moves faster than a Tenno ever could - toning that speed down to manageable levels (like the Antlion Guard's speed in Half-Life 2) would make it a lot better.

- It hardly needs highly damaging, super-slowing tar that spawns allies in addition to ones it was being constantly backed up by, meaning it'll be the worst thing in the world to fight in a Survival mission. Removing either the slow or the damage would be nice since having both should probably be reserved for the MOA named after that tar.

- Its weakpoint only shows sometimes (which was annoying with Ruk, Kril and Lephantis already), has high damage resistance (turning my Dread arrows that could deal up to 72,000 (which I've seen happen) into 1,316 at most) and only allows you to vaguely chip at its huge health pool. Doesn't help that CC like knockdown doesn't stop its tar attack but prevents its weakpoint from showing.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Blackout751

[Konga]

Newbies aren't going to fight it during the alert, unless they get taxi'd. Mid-tier players will likely be in a party for it. What's the problem, exactly?

 

On-topic: Enemy with telegraphed attacks, apparent weak spots, and enough HP that it actually earns the moniker of "Juggernaut". People say the game is too easy, and the moment anything that resembles a challenge is introduced, people say it's too hard. I don't get the complaints.

This person deserves the potatoes. All of them.

[UltimateSpinDash]

Fought it solo.

 

It's weakpoint isn't exposed long enough, hitting the weakpoint doesn't deal enough damage (although it was a high level one we fight in the Endurance Alert) and I found it's charge to be difficult, if not impossible to dodge.

 

Ended up just walking up to him and slashing him with my Dakra Prime, which dealt more damage than hitting the weak spot with my Soma. I don't think he could hit me, but even if he did, I was a Trinity.

[takeshiblue]

Umm just saying he is a lv 75 Super Armored target do you expect to kill him easily, and i found him fun to fight i fought him 20 times out of fascination. 

[Vargras]

Fought it solo.

 

It's weakpoint isn't exposed long enough, hitting the weakpoint doesn't deal enough damage (although it was a high level one we fight in the Endurance Alert) and I found it's charge to be difficult, if not impossible to dodge.

Really? If anything, I found the charge hilariously easy to dodge -- there were several times where it looked like I got hit, and I thought I had gotten hit, and I instead took no damage at all because it missed. The wonky collision on the Juggernaut doesn't help either (you can walk/fall right through it).

[Konga]

Tip: If you go solo, his level is lower.

[DelialFallen]

As I mentioned in another Juggernaut thread, I personally had a blast.

 

Try this if you don't want to "cheese it":

 

1 Valkyr, Steel Charge Aura, Eternal War augment

1 Oberon, Steel Charge Aura, Hallowed Eruption augment

 

Both on Life Strike melee detail.

 

Valkyr keeps War Cry up, Oberon carpets and explodes them when Disruptors appear, focusing DpS on them until cleared.

 

1 Rhino, Rifle Amp Aura, "balanced" build

1 Trinity, Regeneration Aura, Vampire Leech augment

 

Both near Juggernaut, but not in melee rang: Trinity on energy and Blessing detail, Rhino on Boltor/Whatever-else and Roar detail, stomps when too many mobs are closeby.

 

Group needs to reposition and close the gap quickly.

 

Not as efficient as CC groups and double Mesa, but stupidly fun.

[UltimateSpinDash]

Really? If anything, I found the charge hilariously easy to dodge -- there were several times where it looked like I got hit, and I thought I had gotten hit, and I instead took no damage at all because it missed. The wonky collision on the Juggernaut doesn't help either (you can walk/fall right through it).

I tried to dodge the charge, but I don't think I was successful if I wasn't already moving before he began to charge. Although I don't think I got significant damage when hit.

Although, if his charge is really a problem, it just means that he needs to telegraph it more. I'm fine if that attack has high damage, as long as it can be dodged by someone who is paying attention.

[Vargras]

I tried to dodge the charge, but I don't think I was successful if I wasn't already moving before he began to charge. Although I don't think I got significant damage when hit.

Although, if his charge is really a problem, it just means that he needs to telegraph it more. I'm fine if that attack has high damage, as long as it can be dodged by someone who is paying attention.

I didn't notice significant damage either myself, whenever I did get hit by it. Was a minor annoyance more than anything.

[Konga]

How to avoid him being tanky: Think ahead, use your mods. Bring corrosive procs/projections, then aim for the weakpoint. 

How to avoid charges: Roll out of the way or block. Its not hard to dodge.

How to avoid the gas: <--

How to avoid those grey things he shoots: He only seems to fire them horizontally, and he doesnt predict movement. Circle him or hide under his belly.

How to avoid the slams: Block or roll into them.

How to kill him effortlessly: Get a peacemesa and a limbo.

 

And while I havent tested it, punchthrough might be nice to use. Its an easy fight, just actually plan ahead. I'm guessing he'll be in an infested raid if that becomes a thing. He IS level 50+, right?

 

 

EditNote: Wait.. Does he even take procs? sec. Testing.

EditNote2: He takes Slash/Puncture a lot.. Doesnt seem to proc viral at all.

EditNote3: He totes took that corrosive proc.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Konga

[DitsyPixie]

Well... look, at Nullifiers, look at previous tac alerts, look at Bursas and there you have your answer what DE considers as "fun"

 

This is why balance is important, even in PVE.

 

This is why 25 energy ultimates are inappropriate.

 

This is why creating content specifically to please the game's meta is a bad idea. 

 

Warframe used to show promise. A promise that made up for its clunky mechanics and lackluster gameplay. Now it's like a movie franchise with more than one-too-many sequels forced to resort to sad attempts at one-upping itself to hold our interest. 

 

At least it's pretty to look at. 

 

Here youre going off the deep end tho imo, the problem is more that DE doesnt seem to know anything apart from cheap one-trick ponies/instant fail-state to introduce challenge.

And that the AI sucks gigantic a*s.

And that theres no interesting Buff and Debuff system, where they can interact/cancel each other.

And that Status/Procs are undercooked and disabled on too many enemies where it would make a difference.

In short that DE doesn't seem to know the first thing about classical game design and doesn't seem to have anyone on the team who even received the slightest bit of formal training in it.

 

 

Umm just saying he is a lv 75 Super Armored target do you expect to kill him easily, and i found him fun to fight i fought him 20 times out of fascination. 

 

Well, a problem eg is that even if you strip him off his armor with say ash's augment the dmg he receives isn't changed. Same with corrosive procs.

It really should be possible to considerably decrease its bullet sponginess with armor reduction mechanics and procs. Oh did i mention how its silly that all procs deal 0 dmg even if you inflicted them on its weakspot/frames? Toxin shouldn't work that way, also procs don't behave like that on Tenno either, eg Limbo and Rift.

 

But instead you can just resort to cheesy/glitchy ways to take it down in 10 seconds, and who would blame anyone if so many game mechanics are ignored/disabled.

Edited June 5, 2015 by DitsyPixie

[Vargras]

In short that DE doesn't seem to know the first thing about classical game design and doesn't seem to have anyone on the team who even received the slightest bit of formal training in it.

There isn't any formal training for game design. The vast majority of people working as developers don't have degrees specifically for game design (one dev at Riot Games has his degree in oceanography, another has one in urban engineering).