Why I've Lost Trust In De

[Marthrym]

Thing is, if the devs actually did balance, instead of just removing stuff most of the time and taking months to actually balance things out, there wouldn't be so many angry players today.

 

Let's look a Hydroid, just to use him a one example out of many : from what I gathered the overwhelming majority agrees one one point : Hydroid's kit sucks major @ss. I'm sorry for the term used, but I really think it is the most appropriate one here, and don't you dare tell me I'm wrong, I haven't seen a damn Captain Tentacles in my games for months. Now, Pilfering Swarm was balanced/nerfed/whateverfloatsyourboat. BUT. NOTHING. ELSE. WAS. DONE. I repeat : the devs did nothing to actually help Hydroid in any way whatsoever. If that isn't a Prime (huehuehue) example of nonsensical decision making, I don't know what is.

 

If the devs had balanced/reworked Hydroid's full kit to make it more attractive/viable, and only then proceeded with the PS change, I think it is pretty safe to assume that this change wouldn't have caused such a negative response. Because Hydroid would still be useful and fun to play. See, this is DE's main problem : they simply cannot (whether by choice, lack of organization and resources, or simply poor judgment, remains to be established) do things in a logical order.

 

Pilfering swarm did not hurt the game all that much when you think about it. It didn't break the game, or the frame (it kinda made the frame unfortunately). What did hurt the game, and still does, is the terrible shape Hydroid is in now, and has been since his inception in the game. The fact that simply tweaking an augment of all things got so many players so riled up shows how badly Hydroid needs help. How the devs cannot, or refuse to see this is what worries me the most.

I know developing a game is hard, blahblahblah - limited resources, time and manpower - blahblahblah, prioritizing is hard etc, I get that, I do. Yet we keep getting new horizontal content at a steady pace. Which means the devs have or make the time to create that content. So how come they don't make the time to do things that will not end up causing that kind of mess? Why not start by fixing the root of the problem, and only then "balance" the game the way they see fit? Even if it makes some players cringe, it is for the general good, right? Would it hurt their wallets or timetables so much to stop, or at least slow down the release of weapons/frames/cosmetics just for a little while and focus on what is already implemented and in dire need of their full attention? Wouldn't focusing on that process be much more beneficial than doing it so slowly while still going full speed (some would say too fast) with new content releases, said content invariably ending up requiring several "balance passes" right after being implemented? Isn't that preferable to giving the players enough time to build a certain playstyle around a certain content to then throw a monkey wrench in there just when they get it right? I know this is not always foreseeable, but are you going to tell me that the devs didn't allow E.Blade to use Syndicate mods on purpose when they clearly aknowledged that it wad done purposedly and "working as intended" a few update before that, or that they couldn't predict that people would obviously prioritize the weapons that use said mods and their effects?^^'

Edited August 26, 2015 by Marthrym

[muzashi1963]

While I agree with you, Marthrym, I cannot but think that the "horizontal content" that DE churns out, is somewhat out of their hands.

The DEVs probably have the game at heart, but the beancounters run the show, unfortunately.

Sorry to say it, but beancounters only think of one thing, and one thing only.

 

Somewhat cynical, I know, but also realistic.

[Pirate_Shark]

When something is OP they rebalance it so its more in line with other warframes and mods. Nobody should have an extreme advantage over anybody else. When they pulled the chances they probably decided it wasn't a good idea to have anymore because it was breaking the game.

 

Loopholes can be exploited when somebody takes advantage of them and DE doesn't always see the consequences to their actions until they see what people are doing with it and realize it was a mistake. Sometimes what appears to be a good thing can actually be bad for the health of the game.

 

They might have even known but its possible they didn't really see the consequences until much later. Most of the time when DE does something its for good reason.

[FelisImpurrator]

Even if it makes some players cringe, it is for the general good, right? Would it hurt their wallets or timetables so much to stop, or at least slow down the release of weapons/frames/cosmetics just for a little while and focus on what is already implemented and in dire need of their full attention?

Well, this is obvious to us, but to DE... well, they have PR to manage, even before factoring in any hypothetical bean-counters. I can't say for sure WHY, but I don't think they want to rock the boat in this specific way for some reason. Maybe they think it would cause an even bigger uproar if they stopped releasing new content as quickly in favor of going into full-on overhaul mode? I mean, what I've been saying for pages and pages is that they should bite the bullet, do it, and ignore the salt, but I guess they don't want to do that.

[[DE]Danielle]

Almost two pages of posts were removed for being toxic and off-topic. If the discussion proceeds as it has the thread will be locked. Thank you, Tenno! 

[MercurialAirSpectre]

yall got too much free time to actually overthink about this stuff. I played this game for like 1 year 8 months and still playing it cause its fun

[--MZez--]

welcome to games.

[KrazyKubrowLady]

DE isn't obliged to anyone including their players. If you ever listen to devstreams 80% of the time they make it known why a nerf is done though usually 9 times out of 10 it's a balancing issue they didn't foresee. Ie effigy's accidental end mission credit buff

[(PSN)blackbeltdude7]

I think the syndicate keys are a good example to look at here...

 

Obviously the community didn't want that changed; I think we paid something crazy like 5K rep for a T4 key? Either way, the trade off was unfair and in our favor. I think Steve used an example of giving us "$10 for $5" or something.

 

With Exalted Blade, if it debuted without using the syndicate mods, people would have still loved it. I agree it's better with them, but it's still good and effective without them.

 

I'm not thrilled with balance changes when they feel like they're taking something from us, and I'm not thrilled with changes that are made in response to farming tactics. I think DE should probably evaluate the aspect of farming more seriously, instead of this back and forth with the player base who will always figure out a way to do things in the most efficient way.

 

Outside of that, it's hard to get upset at them when they're trying to create a balanced experience.

[TenguBlade]

Did not read full thread.

Should read the full thread next time.

I read enough to see this is just another "give us what we want, not what you want" thread.  I don't care how well-written anything looks, this is DE's game and DE is free to do what they want with it, regardless of our wishes.  It's pathetic to see threads like this get this level of attention despite how plain that fact has been made.  And my initial response was to show that the "I spent money so I deserve what I want" excuse doesn't work either when coercing someone: DE did not force anyone to break out the wallet in order to progress through the game.  Anyone who spent money on the game spent it of their own accord.  The money excuse is nothing more than an attempt by spoiled players to wrangle something they don't deserve out of the devs.  If anyone, those who put more time into the game and actually ground everything should be the ones to have their way.

 

If you don't like the way a game is headed, take a break from it.  Come back a few months (or years, I don't care either way) later.  I certainly won't miss you, and I don't think any of the devs will either.

Edited August 26, 2015 by TenguBlade

[Empiren]

DE isn't obliged to anyone including their players. If you ever listen to devstreams 80% of the time they make it known why a nerf is done though usually 9 times out of 10 it's a balancing issue they didn't foresee. Ie effigy's accidental end mission credit buff

 

Well they kind of are obliged if they still want to have players at the end of the day.

 

While I think that they say it was "unforseen" I can't honestly believe them.

 

Watch,  i bet they nerf shotguns again. FoTM wi

 

 

 

I read enough to see this is just another "give us what we want, not what you want" thread.  I don't care how well-written anything looks, this is DE's game and DE is free to do what they want with it, regardless of our wishes.  It's pathetic to see threads like this get this level of attention despite how plain that fact has been made.  And my initial response was to show that the "I spent money so I deserve what I want" excuse doesn't work either when coercing someone: DE did not force anyone to break out the wallet in order to progress through the game.  Anyone who spent money on the game spent it of their own accord.  The money excuse is nothing more than an attempt by spoiled players to wrangle something they don't deserve out of the devs.  If anyone, those who put more time into the game and actually ground everything should be the ones to have their way.

 

If you don't like the way a game is headed, take a break from it.  Come back a few months (or years, I don't care either way) later.  I certainly won't miss you, and I don't think any of the devs will either.

 

You didn't read the thread and tadaaa you came to a conclusion based on misinformation.

 

Man, it's almost like stating you didn't read makes people discredit your opinion on the thread.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Empiren

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

As a MR19 I'd like to throw in my input based on what I've dealt with in regards to 2 of the changes.

Greedy Mag = "useless" and annoying.  It was causing issues for some of us out there:
1.  Scrubs wouldn't start T2 keys in Recruiting without one (wut lol, you realllly need the G Mag to run a T2 def?)
2.  When I actually wanted to be mobile, and moving around, I had to huddle beside Mag's butt because otherwise if I stayed away too long I'd get 0 energy and be unable to pick any up because she'd take the energy towards her anyway.  Thereby forcing players to stay with her.
3. It inadvertently made Mag players suck more than general by trying to fulfill a pure utility role instead of contributing to the actual mission.  Most were just standing in the same spot spamming over and over, and at the end of the mission guess who had 0% damage.... Sorry but you killing stuff is easily more valuable to the mission than you bringing energy to me, which I could easily grab myself.  The fact it works only for the caster now is perfect, as it always should have been.

Exhalted Blade + Syndicate Mods
This hardly even needs to be touched.  The syndicate mods were forcing the choice of melee for EB users to a narrow selection of weapons.  Furthermore, even without syndicate mods, EB is easily one of the most powerful skills in the game now.  When 4 Excals can just run around spamming melee on Pluto Dark Sectors, never using guns and almost never die - always deal 25k+ damage etc. etc., I don't really see how losing syndicate mods is an issue.  The power by it's own nature with almost any high end melee weapon will make it outclass most other powers in the game easily.  Adding Syndicate mods is just overkill. - My friends and I have opted not to use Bright Purity/Skana because we know about the upcoming nerfs, haven't got these yet on PS4 - yet at the same time, we still feel overpowered, Excalibur has become the pinnacle of damage/offensive frames.
 

I think it's logical that Syndicate Mods don't apply to EB - they're specified mods for specific weapons.  Bright Purity is for the Skana, nothing else, it should not carry over to powers, it's for the Skana and should only be applicable when the Skana is the weapon being used. 

In reality nobody wanted Bright Purity until they found it worked on EB - why?  Because the Skana (standalone, no EB) is garbage and no matter what mods you give it, that won't change - by the time you even have enough standing with a faction to buy these mods, chances are you are no longer using such low tier gear.  Naturally players are trying to find ways to make these utterly useless mods have a real function, especially given the work that is needed to obtain them.

I think a large part of the issue here is that DE has unleashed upon us a slew of incredibly useless and overly-specific mods which we almost never find a tangible use for - then when we discover things like EB, naturally everybody wants to try - after all, that crappy mod in your inventory FINALLY had a use. 

The current weapon syndicate mods should just be flat out removed and replaced with more standardized versions. (Though I don't think they should carry to EB still).  But for example, instead of Bright Purity being specific to Skana - why is not specific to all one handed swords?  In such a scenario that mod becomes infinitely more valuable than it's current state - even without being used for EB.

I really think the only reason people are so butthurt about these mods being nerfed and carrying being removed etc. is because they are naturally garbage mods.  Bright Purity is all but worthless again unless you're some scrubs who insists on usind a Skana - while somehow already being 10s of hours into the game in order to level up your Syndicate and standing with them to the point of being able to buy mods.  These mods have NO real place, players are trying to find them a place.

I don't believe this about the Warframe mods, for the most part they're well balanced and are still crappy enough not to significantly change gameplay - hence why I've never used them - and at R19 I can safely say I still don't intend to.  Syndicate mods are generally crap, I think the ones that got nerfed were just overly exploitable, and in Mag's case a flat out annoyance.  

Edited August 26, 2015 by (PS4)lagrue

[Sci_Ant]

So far there hasn't been a single nerf that I have viewed negatively. I have exploited each exploit that has existed since I started playing this game last year, atleast once, and when they subsequently removed it I didn't go "Nuuuuuuuu, FAQ DE", I went "Hey, there's always a loot cave" and "I had my fun with it, so no problems" because I'm completely honest with myself that using those exploits was a lazy and wrong way to do things in the first place and so I have zero problems if I am 'forced' to actually play the game by DE and have actual fun while doing it. Thanks DE for showing me the right way.

 

After a while even I got tired of doing Draco's and Stephano's and doing Void Defense with Excals, Mesas and Mags or Void survival with Mag and Vauban and sitting in a room spamming abilities since I realised on my own that this is not fun and I don't want to be doing this. And I've never even used macros. :P

 

A few months ago when I actually played the game for what it was supposed to be without using exploits and had a real crap ton of fun when I started using frames other than the typical or exploit ones. Not that the exploit frames were all I'd ever used until then, but I clearly hadn't payed as much attention to the rest of the game as I should have.

 

Now a few months later, I have discovered so many useful ways to use so many weapons and frames in so many situations, that I can get into the game and play almost any mode with any frame and weapon and be totally ok with it, instead of limiting myself to exploit frames.

 

For example I've done a 1 hour 31 min Ceres, Egeria Survival agasin't level 200 grineer with an Equinox and had a blast of a time doing that, instead of using a 'Gmag' and a Mesa or Hydroid or Excal or any other frame that could exploit in the past. I've actually given time to maxing all the weapons I had ignored earlier, with atleast 4 or 5 forma and I have discovered so many weapons that I now love since I gave my time and attention to them.

 

If you want to have fun with WF, I suggest actually playing the game, being honest to yourself when you are not and using frames for their abilities other than the Press 'X' to win.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Sci_Ant

[Tyrian3k]

Well they kind of are obliged if they still want to have players at the end of the day.

 

While I think that they say it was "unforseen" I can't honestly believe them.

 

Watch,  i bet they nerf shotguns again. FoTM wi

Even if they nerf shotguns, that doesn't really prove anything. Even with a nerf they could easily still be competitive.

Also, Boltor family has been "the flavour" since U6, only interrupted in the time from U11(Regular Boltor lost its appeal due to Damage 2.0) to U12.4(Boltor Prime introduced).

There may have been other good weapons at the same time, but the Boltors were almost always competing among the best weapons.

[RealPandemonium]

 

In reality nobody wanted Bright Purity until they found it worked on EB - why?  Because the Skana is garbage and no matter what mods you give it, that won't change - by the time you even have enough standing with a faction to buy these mods, chances are you are no longer using such low tier gear.  Naturally players are trying to find ways to make these utterly useless mods have a real function, especially given the work that is needed to obtain them.

BP Skana deals acceptable damage in T4 missions and also has a useful synidcate AOE that deals Corrosive damage and heals the user.  To call it garbage would be misleading.  

Edited August 26, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

EB Skana deals acceptable damage in T4 missions and also has a useful synidcate AOE that deals Corrosive damage and heals the user.  To call it garbage would be misleading.  

I'm not saying the EB Skana is garbage - In that paragraph I was talking purely about standalone Skana and Bright Purity, also standalone, and why nobody wanted the mod UNTIL EB+Skana came around.  

EB+Skana is the only reason anybody wanted to use the mod.  Before EB was even out, most players would have never looked twice at such a poor mod for a poor weapon.

Anything with EB deals acceptable damage in T4 because EB is clearly overpowered, not that I'm complaining about that part.  I'm sure the EB can make the Machete look like a prime weapon, it's just that good of a power on its own - hence why we don't need syndicate mods.

 

Edited August 26, 2015 by (PS4)lagrue

[RealPandemonium]

I'm not saying the EB Skana is garbage - In that paragraph I was talking purely about standalone Skana and Bright Purity, also standalone, and why nobody wanted the mod UNTIL EB+Skana came around.  

EB+Skana is the only reason anybody wanted to use the mod.  Before EB was even out, most players would have never looked twice at such a poor mod for a poor weapon.

Anything with EB deals acceptable damage in T4 because EB is clearly overpowered, not that I'm complaining about that part.  I'm sure the EB can make the Machete look like a prime weapon, it's just that good of a power on its own - hence why we don't need syndicate mods.

 

Sorry, I meant to type BP and not EB.  I was just talking about the Skana with BP equipped.  

[(PSN)LeBron6JamesMH]

Most of the time DE will make the best decisions for the game, for exemple e gate was fun but made the farming too easy, gmag and mesa combo...no comments.

 

At some point we have to understand something, warframe is all about farming for your stuff...if you wait in a corner for 2 hours how can you enjoy the game ?

 

Like it or not DE knows exactly what they need to do.

[Omnimorph]

At the moment, Warframe is not a game I would spend money on. It's a fantastic game, polished in many aspects, with a significant and mostly friendly community.

 

Umm, wouldn't those be good reasons to give DE money?

 

Basically, you're saying that you'll only give DE money if they do what players want.

 

There might be some kind of logic there, but it's escaping me.

[_Je_Suis_Bruxelles_]

Tbh, Excal needed a tone down...if for no other reasons,I'm afraid that I might get seizures because of  players waving EB from start to finish.

[Nitresco]

Nitresco's posts sum up how the average player feels when they take the time to write up a well thought out response to a change, see loads of people supporting their response and disagreeing with the proposed change, and then see the change implimented anyways against the wishes of the community.

Nitresco's response to the EB changes:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/511036-pc-psa-covert-lethality-exalted-blade-changes/?p=5705370

Nitresco's post after EB changes were implimented:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/511036-pc-psa-covert-lethality-exalted-blade-changes/?p=5741197

Well, I was mostly true to my word and did actually take a break, hence why I haven't seen this thread up until late yesterday. Honestly, I did consider making this sort of thread myself; I was genuinely irritated that yet another change was implemented despite mass protest. I then decided it was a bad idea, because it would've caused a lot of the posts that the fair lady Danielle removed. Especially if I had cited my own post on the PSA thread, like you did. That would have inevitably just made people come on the topic to tell me to get over myself, despite ego stroking not being the point.

 

I suppose I should thank you, Auraelus, for a couple different reasons. First reason being that you made me feel that my post/opinion/feedback actually served a purpose rather than being waved away without so much as an afterthought. The second reason is that this thread has actually made me laugh quite a bit. Several posts that were removed by Danielle are actually from people who I have had little (or in some cases, big) disagreements with in the past. Whether or not the mention of my name and opinion was the reason behind their "toxicity", I do not know. Humorous regardless.

 

In all honesty, I shouldn't have gotten so worked up about it. I've lived through countless terrible (arguably) changes in this game, and I'll likely end up living through this one. It's not often that we players are able to naysay something like this away. There's no harm in trying, though. I just ended up trying a bit too hard and set myself up for a large heap of disappointment.

[Senketsu_]

An exploit is an exploit no matter how much the community wants it to stay. If it goes against how the devs feel the game should work. It should be removed. OP you stated how the devs never listen to what the community wants, yet you are ignoring all of the community requested changes that have been added into the vame, and the ones that are going worked on. From what I am understanding, you are mad that you can't be lazy and just cheese everything anymore.

[Feallike]

OK guys seriously this is getting very very bias. Yes the DE plays their game, yes they do test stuff, and yes they know none of you guys wanted that change. Does that mean they weren't going to change it? HECK NO.

 

This is feels like a thread about:
 

OMG! I can't these 5 melee weapons to their fullest potental while using EB! I can't liive without that extra 500 damage to put this mod on that I always used! If I don't put the maxed out stats for my EB I will be useless in T4 and I will not enjoy my time! DE YOU RUINED EVERYTHING!

 

OMG! They nerfed GP I can't stand having to use carrier and having to walk around to get loot! Their was no reason to change this! I like standing around in Draco! DE FIX THIS!

 

 

Seriously guys, I can understand being upset about not being listened to. I get it but the reasoning behind these things are beyond absurd It is one thing to complain about the community not having a say in how something is changed. It is another thing to complain that it was changed.

The DE cannot listen to the forums all the time. This playerbase that is the forums is small and honestly if I was a dev I would take it as a grain of salt. Think about it. 10k+ players on the forums, 6+ million players on the game. Who do you listen to? The 10k or the 6m. Listening to the 10k will not remove whiners.

 

That is the point of the forums, a place to whine and sob about changes you don't like. The DE has gotten that in their heads and will not base their whole updates on people on the forums.

[AlanW001]

I went back and re-read the first post. While it may be argued that it was not accurate, I agree with it. I think that DE is not listening to the majority of players. I have seen too much nerfing in reaction to player comments from a small portion of the community. 

 

I only agree with the vocal few about nerfing an OP if there they playing PVP. PVP already has a leveling system and I welcome it.

 

I don't like to have everyone to be leveled in the entire game universe because someone sees another playing better than them. 

 

This is a squad game and each squad should be able to play as they wanted without someone thinking it is unfair. I say if they don't like it they should go play in another squad.  Each squad is playing in its own little game and they have no affect on any other squad. I see no unfairness but I will listen.

 

I am very aware of the increasing strength of the enemy and how often we don't have the right tools to fight the high levels in the latter part of the game.

 

Continued nerfing will just make the game impossible. I agree with others that there should be more of a vote on changes.

 

Yeah I get that DE doesn't have to be democratic and let the members vote on changes. Maybe they have a plan unknown to us that guides this continued revisions to mods and warframes. So okay they will continue. I guess I am whining.

 

I wish I had better explanations from DE so I could understand what is going on and what I may see in the future. I don't like investing money and playing time into a game if the future is nerfed frames and weapons and unstoppable enemies.

 

I know I will watch what happens and if I don't like it, I will democratically walk to find a better game. I came here looking for something better and I found it for now.

Edited August 26, 2015 by AlanW001

[Flamingfighter]

Wow, this thread went crazy. Not agreeing with everything OP says, but it gets super confusing when he mentions Greedy Pull being a solution to a bug (rather benign circumstance), and most people agree that the fact that Greedy Pull was able to overcome this unintentional bug was the reason it needed to be nerfed. Then again, most people only think Greedy Pull had applications on Draco, so that may have been it. Also, why people are claiming that removing syndicate mods allows more diversity when here was already a best weapon before syndicate mods affected EB and how there continues to be a best weapon afterwards. Syndicate mods didn't kill diversity, they just changed what the best thing was. It's nothing novel, there is a "best" weapon for valkyr and people who play her have long since accepted that they will need to use that weapon to get the most out of her powers. But these issues are a whole 'nother can of worms, and it's interesting how people pick apart the examples rather than the argument.

 

There is some lack of communication between DE and the community, and there is some fault with both parties. But most of the times, these changes are announced in threads. The forums and the nature of these threads is often to inspire feedback and discussion, but once whoever makes the thread does so, there is usually absolutely no response from DE in the thread afterwards (unless it's to clarify something unclear in the original post or to say that everything is too toxic and the thread needs to be locked. They don't continue to engage with the community in the discussions, when people bring up arguments or points in a well-reasoned and civilized manner, DE doesn't respond with their perspectives in response to these arguments or with some more exposition on the thinking patterns behind these changes or the desired effects.

 

Events like the infamous Vivergate was an example where things were done right. DE made a kneejerk change that the community had negative response to. DE then made a thread where "Vivergate" was coined and actively engaged the community there. They explained their thought processes, where the design may have gone wrong, possible alternatives, etc. You could tell they were reading the feedback and discussions because they were actively responding to them. What resulted was a much needed overall of the Syndicate Reputation system that was the reason behind Viver farming and the general disdain for Syndicates. It was a win-win situation where DE managed to cut off absurd workarounds and the playerbase snagged a more approachable gameplay mechanic.

 

Stuff like ViverGate doesn't happen anymore, it just seems to stop at the nerfs and people can never really know if their voices as the playerbase were heard or if DE just made the thread and left. A lot of people here are pointing out that DE acknowledges all the feedback, but how do you know? Maybe they do, but are you sure? Is there a way for you to know that DE has been to all of the feedback threads, through all the pages of their PSAs and workshops? De doesn't seem to participate in the community as a whole the way they used to, and maybe it's an issue with how flagrantly toxic and confrontational the community has become (something that will likely get worse as the playerbase grows). Maybe they don't have time. Or maybe it's like OP said and they just don't care most of the time.

 

It's gotten to the point where I see more developer interaction with Warframe players on Twitter rather than the actual Warframe forums and I think that's really weird to me. I see people like DE_Steve respond to more scathing comments and structured criticism on Twitter than the forums nowadays. It's just seems like the forums are a place where the community gets to run wild and argue at each other while DE periodically checks in to make sure nothing gets too out-of-hand or to drop some information and leave.

 

It just brings back memories of the older times a couple years back when you could see a very real connection between the community and the devs.