Dear De. The Simple Statistical Reason As To Why Im Never Going To Buy Void Keys

[Kalenath]

I am...

Incredibly surprised DERebecca responded in this way.

 

To me, it seemed that, while unfortunate, the idea of having rare parts to rare weapons isn't actually that evil.

Disappointing for some, but it just makes them more valuable and more sought after.

 

But it is interesting to see a company that listens to the loudest majority.

 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The loudest screamers get listened to. Sad, but true.

 

Now to see if they do something to PLACATE said majority who want stuff NOW instead of grinding.

 

If DE does, I will be disappointed.

 

I agree it needs looking at, but not to nerf it so that EVERYONE will be carrying Latron Primes and Reaper Primes tomorrow.

 

 

I consider it important to relay reasonable criticisms of things. This is a new system, the team should be aware of issues the community has before they move forward with tweaks and things.

 

You go, Rebecca.

 

No matter WHAT some naysayers may spout, I know SOME of what is entailed in making a game. Most of the people on the forums have no clue and couldn't care less.

 

They want it fixed so they get what they want and RIGHT THE F*** NOW. Typical.

 

Get it done right please, DE.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Kalenath

[NotaCobra]

I consider it important to relay reasonable criticisms of things. This is a new system, the team should be aware of issues the community has before they move forward with tweaks and things.

 

Indeed, I can completely agree that consumer relations is absolutely vital to good business.

 

But I do wonder;

It's easy for somebody to get annoyed and upset, then come on the forums and make a noise.

The people who are content are a lot less likely to come and express contentment.

 

That is to say, I wonder how many people are happy with the current system?

 

Anyway, I thoroughly approve of you taking a personal interest in the forums as a whole.

Edited May 27, 2013 by NotaCobra

[unmog]

Exactly. I'm not surprised at all. I do appreciate it though that members of the team even bother looking at the forum and not only consider our feedback but respond directly sometimes.

 

It's a good thing though, knowing that people are listening. Plus I don't think anyone intended for people to get upset in the first place. Just kinda surprised how quick it happened. I wonder how many keys were bought over this weekend. Anyway to get some statistics on that I wonder?

[Sagefoxwood]

Yay for the Lotus. :D 

 

The only reason behind this is....

 

Corpus techies...

 

How dare they mess with our RNG god! 

on a lighter note, couldnt help but Lol xD

[Zantestsuken]

Good. Will even this be brought before the Lotus?

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/52312-forma-needs-to-be-removed-as-a-construction-material/

[RealityMachina]

Now to see if they do something to PLACATE said majority who want stuff NOW instead of grinding.

You know I'm pretty sure a lot of the complaints were centred around the fact that system as is seems centred on making it so you will get anything except that last part for pretty much every single Void BP for a looooooooooooooooong time.

 

I mean, it would be understandable if, say, that only applied to the Frost Prime BP, since at least I could understand DE not wanting to reduce the value of an event exclusive too much...

 

But it's kinda really damn silly when it's applied to something like this: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Latron_Prime

 

I mean, yeah the Latron Prime's stats are a bit better than the regular Latron, but it's not like it's a uber overpowerful gun that must be carefully rationed by DE. It being one of the few things that can be relatively easy to obtain from the Void isn't going to break the game.

[unmog]

Right. I think most people are of the mindset that its fine that the keys are hard to get, and they don't even mind spending money to get a few easy. Just they want the rewards at the end of the mission to be fairly distributed. I cant remember where but there was a post that broke down the mathmatics behind it all. Since several people have claimed to run like 100 void missions and still not get the blade or the receiver it would be like spending 800+ hours farming and grinding for keys to run those same 100 missions people are paying plat for and still not getting the items they need. Considering how hard it is to obtain the keys it's reasonable to expect that the rewards be fairly balanced.

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

Before this topic continues into lawsuit territory...

 

Sorry it took so long.

 

Yes, we're back!

 

 

Sibris, for what it's worth thank you for summarizing the problem with these stats. I'm sorry for the frustration up to this point.

 

And again, sorry. I agree there is an issue and that's exactly what the Devs will be told.

 

 

Again, OP and Artaban, thank you both for adding thoughts and evidence to this, it makes it clear what needs serious review.

It's now my duty to ensure the issues are addressed and solved. Sit tight, everyone.

Thank you for being so kind, patient on considerate Rebecca.

[Boomstick720]

Well aint that golden? Scamming, cheating and stealing is now all okay because you "kind of need money".

God for bid there are options like I DONT KNOW Boomy:

- Telling your players about it (Like TF2's **** boxes which had the common courtesy of having the LABEL of "or an Exceedingly Rare Special Item!" also never hiding the fact that the drop rate is 1%)

- Not trying to sell something that by definition is useless (because god damn gee its so much fun to spend 75 plat on 9 items WHICH CANNOT BE USED AT ALL WITHOUT THE 3 RARE ONES)

- Coming forward to the community with monetary issues and asking for their support instead of trying to scam them? (As in ASKING for instead of STEALING the money)

- Figuring out the value of what you are selling and not trying to sell it for roughly 2000 times more than what its actually worth?

 

Just for the sake of example, but you know what else Boomy? It doesnt matter, because these keys are not worth it. No matter what you call this entire issue, whether its scamming, making a mistake, not thinking about it at all... doesnt matter. Those keys are not only not worth 75 plat but looking at the concept of it, they are worth less than 10 platinum, because once again its all over a rigged RNG system with no drops guaranteed.

Its not like there are secondary drops which increase the value of the entire void system, such as "only rare mods drop in there" or "you have a chance of finding entire, complete weapons and/or frames". No.

Its the pay 75 platinum to wind up at the conclusion that you cant get anything from it at all, because it will be once again common mods with 75% of them being ability mods, and 9 useless items because there are 3 rare ones that have a drowned drop chance, despite the fact that the rest of the drops cant be used for ANYTHING without them.

 

So with all due respect: Trying to make profits is not the problem. HOW YOU DO IT is.

I understand your concern, and I can see why you would be upset.  But what I DON'T understand is how this is clearly a malicious exploitation by the devs, and not, just maybe, a bug, or something that should be fixed.  The devs have given no indication that this was intentional, so generally you shouldn't assume that unintentional problems are the result of malicious intent.  I think the devs should make up for this bug of course, but I don't believe you have the right to get off on calling them Hitler because you intepret something, which you can ONLY SEE ONE SIDE OF, in a way that portrays them as such.

 

I never said that there was no problem, but again, just because there is a problem, does NOT mean that its because of malicious intent.  It could be that the devs are either 1. unaware of the problem that exists, because every time there is some sort of update you always have a few people that claim that "DEH GAM IS RUEND" now, or 2. They are working on fixing the problem now.  If you have an issue, it should be heard, but don't personally attack the person you're trying to convince.

 

Unfortunately, in most f2p communities, personal attacks seem to be the go to strategy for getting what you want, because why present logical factual arguments straight, when you can do so with nothing but strawmen and ad hominem?  Thats why I hate it.  Not because the complaints may or may not be legit, but because if the devs do something wrong, and take more than one nanosecond to fix it, its because they are trying to sabotage everything you hold dear.

[Aerensiniac]

I understand your concern, and I can see why you would be upset.  But what I DON'T understand is how this is clearly a malicious exploitation by the devs, and not, just maybe, a bug, or something that should be fixed.  The devs have given no indication that this was intentional, so generally you shouldn't assume that unintentional problems are the result of malicious intent.  I think the devs should make up for this bug of course, but I don't believe you have the right to get off on calling them Hitler because you intepret something, which you can ONLY SEE ONE SIDE OF, in a way that portrays them as such.

 

I never said that there was no problem, but again, just because there is a problem, does NOT mean that its because of malicious intent.  It could be that the devs are either 1. unaware of the problem that exists, because every time there is some sort of update you always have a few people that claim that "DEH GAM IS RUEND" now, or 2. They are working on fixing the problem now.  If you have an issue, it should be heard, but don't personally attack the person you're trying to convince.

 

Unfortunately, in most f2p communities, personal attacks seem to be the go to strategy for getting what you want, because why present logical factual arguments straight, when you can do so with nothing but strawmen and ad hominem?  Thats why I hate it.  Not because the complaints may or may not be legit, but because if the devs do something wrong, and take more than one nanosecond to fix it, its because they are trying to sabotage everything you hold dear.

I understand your point and im not saying that you are wrong. However we are living in a world where developers ****, scamming, screwing up their customers in the hope of quick profit is not unprecedented. In fact, the industry's largest names are doing it constantly.

Yes, this is bias on my behalf and its not below me to say that i am sorry if my assumptions or accusations are wrong.

 

That being said, i knew for a fact that this was done intentionally. It was not a bug.

Its a different question whether or not they went overboard with the chance reduction and the overall farming burdens, but the idea itself to lower the drop chance of specific components was not a bug. It was deliberate, and its still an open question whether or not they will be keeping this practice up on the long run, cause at present, system parts of frames are also weighted down in the loot table, roughly by a 1/20 chance.

 

So there is a lot to talk about and there are indeed rather questionable methods.

Finally: I was happy at Rebecca's reaction cause it means that there is still hope and future for the game, and in the end, that is where the concerns of both, player's and dev's meet: We want a good game.

I am saying this as someone who wants to pay the effort, not just a f2p player who has no intentions at supporting the game or the devs ever.

[Weird_Stealth]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The loudest screamers get listened to. Sad, but true.

 

Now to see if they do something to PLACATE said majority who want stuff NOW instead of grinding.

 

If DE does, I will be disappointed.

 

I agree it needs looking at, but not to nerf it so that EVERYONE will be carrying Latron Primes and Reaper Primes tomorrow.

The loudest screamers sometimes get ignored the most, which is most times, is a damned good thing, just be lucky Warframe is still on it's first game/title, if this was Warframe 2 or something, the screamers start screaming over things that are nothing but opinion, and are blinded by nostalgia goggles. 

 

As for the fact that everyone is getting nothing but handles and what not, it'd be nice if De re did the system so if a player already has a blue print/part, the wheel of random spins again to give player(s) a different item. This would not only keep players from getting 50 reaper handles, 1 reaper head, and 0 reaper blueprints, but also at the same time keep it from being a easy thing to get.

 

As for everyone with their shorts in a wad over this "Issue" you guys need to take a planet sized chill pill, #1 like someone else pointed out, this thread was created on the weekend, at least the weekend for those of us who live in the USA, those of you who live in the time zones a day ahead of us, you're going to have to suck it up, relax, and calm down, your mondays are our sundays, and most places are closed on sundays.

 

Now, people need to stop getting their shorts into a wad over very little issues and acting like the Devs are trying to ruin the game for you, their job is to create a game that everyone likes and plays, sabotaging their own game goes against that goal.

[Shrooms]

I personally like the idea of rare weapons and more rarer stuff (even sentinel bps? :) ), it adds to the game you have a goal to reach

But this could be done with achievements and that way its not about randomly getting something, but to work for it and achieve it.

 

But super rare random drops are cool too :)

Keep up the good work DE. :)

[Wooben]

I wonder if DE has a bot searching threads for any mention of 'lawsuit' or 'sue'

[Kalenath]

Ah, yes. Sue a game company for something you were 'entitled' to. Good luck with that. *snicker*

 

I understand your point and im not saying that you are wrong. However we are living in a world where developers ****, scamming, screwing up their customers in the hope of quick profit is not unprecedented. In fact, the industry's largest names are doing it constantly.

Yes, this is bias on my behalf and its not below me to say that i am sorry if my assumptions or accusations are wrong.

 

That being said, i knew for a fact that this was done intentionally. It was not a bug.

Its a different question whether or not they went overboard with the chance reduction and the overall farming burdens, but the idea itself to lower the drop chance of specific components was not a bug. It was deliberate, and its still an open question whether or not they will be keeping this practice up on the long run, cause at present, system parts of frames are also weighted down in the loot table, roughly by a 1/20 chance.

 

So there is a lot to talk about and there are indeed rather questionable methods.

Finally: I was happy at Rebecca's reaction cause it means that there is still hope and future for the game, and in the end, that is where the concerns of both, player's and dev's meet: We want a good game.

I am saying this as someone who wants to pay the effort, not just a f2p player who has no intentions at supporting the game or the devs ever.

 

 

Yes, we live in a world when many game developers and publishers are not polite people.

 

But...

 

Can you IMAGINE game devs from companies run by EA, SOE, (or heaven forbid Ubisoft!) coming in OVER THE FRAKING WEEKEND to find out what the problem is, to try and alleviate concerns? Would they even CARE about customer problems/complaints?Three words: HELL F***ing NO!

 

You want to see a company that DOESN'T give a ****? Look to many other F2P game developer/publishers.

 

DE acts like they care. If you don't see that, then I am truly sorry. I know it is hard to see such things in today's jaded world. How many OTHER DEVS come onto a livestream and answer QUESTIONS from the fanbase in REAL TIME? Hmmm?

 

How many other community managers actually keep the community updated in real time or close to it?

 

Now before anyone says so, I am NOT a rabid fanboy. The game HAS problems. But um... It is STILL a beta! And those who say it shouldn't be a beta if the real money market is open?

 

Hello...? F2P Beta? Ever DONE any F2P Betas?

Edited May 27, 2013 by Kalenath

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The loudest screamers get listened to. Sad, but true.

 

Now to see if they do something to PLACATE said majority who want stuff NOW instead of grinding.

 

If DE does, I will be disappointed.

 

You must be a damned fool if you don't understand the issue of the grinding.

 

So, buying keys with plat isn't enough to "GET THE STUFF NAO" from now on?

The current situation shows us how NOT TO make gamers happy, espectially those ones, who bought the keys with money, but clearly shows how to make everyone (except a small minority of fanboys) frustrated as hell thanks to broken RNG (or just NG?)

 

I agree it is hard for a bootlick and for a fanboy to understand that the feedback could be negative and it is even much better for game than a positive one, but still, what is happening now isn't normal, even the DE admitted that. I don't know was it a bug or they did it on purpose but the only thing is clear now: this needs to be fixed.

[Wooben]

I've had hope for this game ever since it went open beta, because it seemed really unique and interesting and i was looking forward to where it could go in the future. But honestly, like many others I am sure, I've lost hope with this latest update. It seems the development team is not interested in evolving the game at all in any meaningful sense, more just in adding superficial content to milk the community for money. I understand that it is free to play, and that there are bills and wages to take care of. I guess I just now am regretting that it couldn't have fit into a more conventional retail model... maybe then we would have gotten more, and it would have been worth the 60$ or so they would charge. Some people have spent hundreds of dollars on this game. That is beyond me.

What many people are expecting is a huge overhaul of the game to bring in more varied content and less farm, but honestly, looking at DE's past works and the latest few updates, I really don't expect to see anything groundbreaking coming from such a lackluster development team.

You're 'biggest update yet' focuses around a new area with mostly palette swapped enemies which you have to pay to get into to just grind for S#&$ that doesn't even mean anything? Thanks, but no thanks.

[MaduSciuntistu]

You know what this is fine, I choose to spend my money on this and I will take responsibility for what I did, Rebecca said they would fix it, that good enough for me. yeah I am out 30$ but that is my fault for buying the keys even though i knew the parts were damn near impossible to get. yes its a bit annoying tha DE made the drop rates so low, but if they were high, everyone would have them, they wouldnt be special, what I would have done diffrently was make Keys a random drop only, not sell them. if they do that they can preserve the rarity of the items, and avoid this sort of thing happening again. yeah people will complain, but then frost prime will actually be as exculsive as we thought he would be.

Edited May 27, 2013 by MaduSciuntistu

[Hayden_10-O]

I like how people burn 20bucks one something that's bugged and when they' realize it is bugged they spend EVEN more money on it.
 

[Kalenath]

You must be a damned fool if you don't understand the issue of the grinding.

 

So, buying keys with plat isn't enough to "GET THE STUFF NAO" from now on?

The current situation shows us how NOT TO make gamers happy, espectially those ones, who bought the keys with money, but clearly shows how to make everyone (except a small minority of fanboys) frustrated as hell thanks to broken RNG (or just NG?)

 

I agree it is hard for a bootlick and for a fanboy to understand that the feedback could be negative and it is even much better for game than a positive one, but still, what is happening now isn't normal, even the DE admitted that. I don't know was it a bug or they did it on purpose but the only thing is clear now: this needs to be fixed.

 

Point... missed.

 

*Sigh*

 

Why do I even try?

Edited May 27, 2013 by Kalenath

[Pyropos]

This is my result

 

forma BP 1

forma 1

 

Latron Prime BP 22

Latron Prime Stock 24

Latron Prime Barrel 8

Latron Prime Receiver 0

 

Reaper BP 7 (bugged6)

Reaper Prime Handle 28

Reaper Prime Blade 1

 

Ftorst Prime BP 0

Frost Prime Helm 5

Frost Prime chasis 5

Frost Prime System 2

 

wow no receiver . ahhhhhhh

 

Total 110 run

Edited May 27, 2013 by Pyropos

[Otaiken]

Up to this point you were paying for certain thing. Money -> plat -> item. However with the introduction of keys you go with money -> plat (token) -> small chance to win. That is essentially lottery. And I don't know about Canadian laws, but where I live the regulations (and taxes!) imposed onto companies running a game and companies running an online casino/lottery, are very different. Maybe it's only about gambling for money, maybe it includes physical prizes too. I wouldn't be worried about consumers, worry about the taxman, because taxman cares not for your excuses.

 

Sure you might get a free lottery ticket from time to time, but I am not sure how far does that "protection" go. Sure, you can run your little online slot machine, but be open about it. All I'm saying is that DE is walking a damn fine line here. All this online items stuff is gray area right now, all we're waiting for is a precedent. Is paying money for a chance to win virtual prizes gambling? Theoretically, yes. Dunno about how law sees it though. You still get something from every void run, but what if it is useless by itself? Is the complete Latron the prize or just getting one part?

 

Also I'm afraid that value of "fun" or gameplay or "entertainment" you get out of something (void levels) is not really tangible compared to the rewards (that incentive), that were promised and not delivered.

 

That said, gambling is still detestable and shame on DE for introducing such a system (and maybe even rigged one at that). Do I believe there's a legal case in here? No. Is it still pretty S#&$ty business model? YES!

Edited May 27, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Fn0rd]

Ah, yes. Sue a game company for something you were 'entitled' to. Good luck with that. *snicker*

 

 

 

Yes, we live in a world when many game developers and publishers are not polite people.

 

But...

 

Can you IMAGINE game devs from companies run by EA, SOE, (or heaven forbid Ubisoft!) coming in OVER THE FRAKING WEEKEND to find out what the problem is, to try and alleviate concerns? Would they even CARE about customer problems/complaints?Three words: HELL F***ing NO!

 

You want to see a company that DOESN'T give a ****? Look to many other F2P game developer/publishers.

 

DE acts like they care. If you don't see that, then I am truly sorry. I know it is hard to see such things in today's jaded world. How many OTHER DEVS come onto a livestream and answer QUESTIONS from the fanbase in REAL TIME? Hmmm?

 

How many other community managers actually keep the community updated in real time or close to it?

 

Now before anyone says so, I am NOT a rabid fanboy. The game HAS problems. But um... It is STILL a beta! And those who say it shouldn't be a beta if the real money market is open?

 

Hello...? F2P Beta? Ever DONE any F2P Betas?

 

Dev ≠ Company

[Promite]

Yes, because anyone who DARES disagree with you is obviously a TROLL and must be REPORTED IMMEDIATELY

 

Dumbass.

[carnalKaiser]

Looking for one of these, champ?

[nzzero]

Looking for one of these, champ?

 

Grandmaster with 2 plat left.

 

I hope you enjoyed your keys.