Multishot Mods Are A Problem. And It's Going To Get Worse.

[Shehriazad]

Multistrike and base damage mods need to go away...I've had this stance for a very long time. They take up 2 mod slots on EVERY weapon because they are simply mandatory to a point where DE might as well delete 2 mod slots entirely and just fuse in the stats...that's how mandatory they are.


While I would find multistrike for melee "cool"...it will just make the problem worse...forcing 2 "removed" mod slots on melee weaponry as well. 


They don't even have to manually up the damage on all weaponry manually by factor X to compensate...you might as well just lower WF damage by a chunk and then lower ALL enemies health by factor X...that's probably a bit faster. (If you lower HP you obviously have to nerf all numeric damage WF powers as well otherwise they become too OP). 

The "long" route would obviously be to buff the damage of all weapons by the amount of the according base damage mods...but I feel like that would make all weapons too strong for new players and give them far too much power. Simply nerf endgame health scaling and leave the damage low as is.


That the mods even exist is putting a huge dent in the new player experience as well. New players without Serration and co are essentially unable to progress into highlevel until they manage to get and level those mods up far enough to continue playing....this type of forced progression is really not all that good. Weapons should feel inherently powerful enough...but base damage and multishot mods make it so that every weapon has to essentially start out as peashooter...which is just sad.


PLUS, if every weapon ends up having 1-2 extra mod slots...we might finally have some room for more derpy or utility type mods or open up different builds without gimping ourselves "for the lolz"...for example melee channeling builds could become worth it. Or status focus guns could be actually worth it. 

Because right now there are only 2 builds for any given weapon pretty much. base damage + ele or base damage + crit + whatever ele you can still fit. 
That's not exactly a whole lot of freedom...the AMOUNT of mods for good choices actually exist...plus let's not forget that physical damage type mods would suddenly become valuable again on more weaponry if base damage scaling elemental is no longer a hindrance.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Shehriazad

[JujuHex]

  I respectfully disagree with the OP.  In any game there are items considered the 'essentials' and other items considered as 'situational' or 'optional'. 

 

  I personally like the current system, and would not like to see a watered down, vanilla, politically correct version of 'leveling' and 'upgrades'.  Warframe got us here by being different, not by being the same as all the other games out there, and sadly, although listening to players is a good trait of the DE staff, it is also their weak point.  Some weapons need loving, yes, but mod cards are not the problem here.

 

  Some people claim there is only an illusion of diversity, but I feel like I have a complete kit when I can choose the type of elemental combos to bring based on the enemy I will be fighting. They could add in more 'flavor' mods with unique procs and effects, and that would be GREAT and please the people looking for 'more different choices', while not harming the ones who enjoy the reliability of the current options. 

 

 

'Sometimes, even the you of the future can end up disagreeing with the you of the past.'

-J Hex

[Rebellis]

PLUS, if every weapon ends up having 1-2 extra mod slots...we might finally have some room for more derpy or utility type mods or open up different builds without gimping ourselves "for the lolz"...for example melee channeling builds could become worth it. Or status focus guns could be actually worth it. 

 

Adding slots won't solve anything because people will run the numbers, use only certain mods, and ignore others. We will be back here again discussing how generic the mod system feels, and asking for more. It would lead to adding enough slots so that every mod fits and you really will end up with one giant cookie-cutter build.

 

We need a new system to fix the problem.

 

"If you do what you always did, you will get what you always got." - Albert Einstein 

Edited September 4, 2015 by Rebellis

[Unholyrequiem]

No change is necessary. Regardless of how you change the system either by the removal of physical damage mods or elemental mods or multi shot mods people are always going to set a meta regardless because some will always work better than others. Regardless of the weapon you select there will always be the best mods you can choose based off the weapons stats. Pretending you're going to have some kind of magical variety by simply removing the staple mods is ridiculous because we're always going to build one way and that's around the "advantages of a weapon."

 

Removing multi-shot, serration, point blank, pressure point, and any other staple mod just causes me to use the next best thing. Utility mod cool, but is that useful or just for show? If not it's trash for anything serious.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Unholyrequiem

[ShortCat]

No change is necessary. Regardless of how you change the system either by the removal of physical damage mods or elemental mods or multi shot mods people are always going to set a meta regardless because some will always work better than others. Regardless of the weapon you select there will always be the best mods you can choose based off the weapons stats. Pretending you're going to have some kind of magical variety by simply removing the staple mods is ridiculous because we're always going to build one way and that's around the "advantages of a weapon."

The thing is, we are not modding around "advantages of a weapon", every weapon gets base dmg increase+multishot+elemental combo, every weapon.

 

I asked some time ago everyone who thinks modding is fine atm to post a build for Paris P in void survival. It is sad noone did it, otherwise you would see how poor mod system is.

[Bibliothekar]

Live on Stream now: DE had an internal discussion and it has been decided that multishot will increase ammo consumption.

Multishot not consuming ammo was actually a bug right from the start, which they just never fixed.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Bibliothekar

[Ketec]

That would  kill sooo many weapons  if  suddenly you use 2-3x more ammo. It's a plain NERF not a fix.

 

Especially hurts snipers - with low clips and rare drops.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Ketec

[WhisperByte]

Rejoice. DEvs confirmed that multishot mods will be glorified fire rate mods now :)

[Bibliothekar]

That would  kill sooo many weapons

Well, they will look over all weapons and re-balance where needed. But it is intended that there will be weapons that suffer from multishot while it doesn't hurt others. Also, snipers will get a rework after shotguns just had theirs.

[Don_T_Shoot]

If they go ahead with Multishot consuming ammo, though logical, will have some brutal implications for many weapons.

 

Amprex will become unusable.   The Hek will become comical to use as it will be a one shot weapon.

 

 

I guess we just learned the real reason for Vaykor Hek.

[Ezariel]

Live on Stream now: DE had an internal discussion and it has been decided that multishot will increase ammo consumption.

Multishot not consuming ammo was actually a bug right from the start, which they just never fixed.

 

All items should have additional slot for "ammo mutation mods". But this is a separate idea and dosn't mean, DE should implant another nerf in game...

 

I don't get it, why they insist that all time instead making Void V-VI-VII and other instances with powerfull enemis need a firepower of all four players?

 

Now they try search excuses in bugs story... Please.

 

In any game is a powerfull stuf and his is normal. This stuff don;t need nerf, but more chalenge. Players always optmize their gear and endeavor to be getting stronger. It's essence of the game. Now I have feeling like DE try make game difficult to players... 

In any MMO you find "must have" items/skill combinations, and its totaly normal. DE just can't  will not change the attitude of players nerfing all, becasue in that way just simple kill MMO RPG (H&S) essence

Edited September 4, 2015 by Ezariel

[Lord_Xenon]

Elemental mods, which I suggested keeping, are typically the only mods players change with weapon loadouts since the three loadouts match the number of different factions - corrosive for infested, mag + toxin for corpus, etc. No real loss by incorporating damage mods into the weapon itself, and you prevent new players from having equally powerful weapons as veteran players by tying weapon and enemy level to Mastery Rank. 

 

Some weapon utility mods (like Firestorm and Sinister Reach for example) could just be integrated into certain weapons, while other utility mods (like Fast Hands, Speed Trigger, and Rifle Aptitude) could be part of a warframe's skill tree so the ability or effect can actually be utilized when it couldn't before.

 

People will progress (instead of sitting at MR 6 or 8 forever) because the more Mastery Rank they have the more points they get to put into their skill tree. I would also change it so MR goes by XP and not by leveling weapons you'll never use which is just silly.

 

And there lies one false thinking. After you removed the damage/and or multishot, what leaves then? Elementmods for the next highest damage.

Because you have those mods, you can mod more as they are so powerful. The lvl 20 doesn't think about it if you OS them with 4x the damage or just with 3.

 

And with your attempt again you go the 'ego-challenge' route again. TIED mean you never have the chance to have it easy. It will EVERYTIME a damn challenge. Made a mistake - oh sorry you're dead! Soloing? Way harder as now. Forcing players with their 'bad' connections into teams is very funny.

 

Your skilltree just SUCK. Have played games with it and it's a huge frustrating factor compared to what warframe offer to me now. They are unflexibel and a one time choice. AND they restrict even more! Oh you want to fire faster because the gun need it? Okay! Leveled, but then you can't choose the crit/status/whatever another weapon need more(in your terms is META to it). I only say 'Want x with y skill use'. NOT AMAZING.

 

MR is just another word for level. While universal, it just suck in such a game with so many different frames/weapons/companions. If you don't see it, sorry, then you may don't have played enough of those games to see this big flawed system.

 

And just for the lol: MR would mean nothing with XP farming. You know the lvl 0 --> 60 in one day? AND why we should ever try new weapons out? MR fodder is one thing to encourage to try it out(and then you will have your opinion).

[Invalid_Infinity]

Live on Stream now: DE had an internal discussion and it has been decided that multishot will increase ammo consumption.

Multishot not consuming ammo was actually a bug right from the start, which they just never fixed.

The statement about it being a bug is a huge freaking lie straight from DE.

 

It is an excuse that they should not get away with.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

Live on Stream now: DE had an internal discussion and it has been decided that multishot will increase ammo consumption.

Multishot not consuming ammo was actually a bug right from the start, which they just never fixed.

This will not only kill so many weapons, but you'll also have to reload more often.  My Vectis Prime will now fire both rounds simultaneously, and I'll be back to reloading after every trigger pull.  What if the weapon has an odd number of rounds in the clip?  would multishot go 222221 (with an 11 round clip for example), or will it draw from the pool in addition to the clip (which makes no sense)?  This is a very bad idea. Thanks to all you jerks who want to nerf everything for ruining something else in this game.

[TuttiTheSkull]

DE seems to want to kill Warframe as a shooting game.

 

Strongly hope they will keep actual better balance for players, not for their own egoism.

 

No more predatory nerfs in deskbound discussion.

Edited September 5, 2015 by TuttiTheSkull

[Inez]

This change will effectively remove many, many weapons from the game.

 

Less player choice is good?

[Hammonsters]

Now that multishot will comsume ammo. I can't wait till I have to reload my burst fire weapons and my ammo eating stream weapons every 2 seconds. 

 

But when has DE listened to the arguments of the side who isn't complaining. 

 

All those people who want nerfs only care about is their precious "top-teir weapons" and throw away the fun and uses of others. 

 

How the hell am I supposed to not spray and pray with my supra? How am I supposed to optimize my burst fire weapons if every burst consumes a possible 6 shots when I ONLY GOT 15 IN THE CLIP?!

[Idiocy]

You can't seriously be complaining about Multishot mods being mandatory

 

The sheer stupidity of that statement is baffling, to say the least. Do you not use mods like Serration? Point Blank? Hornet Strike?

How are they any less mandatory than multishot mods?

 

If the developers cannot see the silliness of that skewed logic, I don't know what the future of Warframe will be like.

[(PSN)IkariWarrior83]

You can't seriously be complaining about Multishot mods being mandatory

 

The sheer stupidity of that statement is baffling, to say the least. Do you not use mods like Serration? Point Blank? Hornet Strike?

How are they any less mandatory than multishot mods?

 

If the developers cannot see the silliness of that skewed logic, I don't know what the future of Warframe will be like.

Good news: De is talkign about Nerfing out their usefulness now!

[Invalid_Infinity]

Disastrous nerfs! Disastrous nerfs everywhere!

 

You want to kill your game DE then be my guest! I will take my money elsewhere! 

[Azamagon]

Live on Stream now: DE had an internal discussion and it has been decided that multishot will increase ammo consumption.

Multishot not consuming ammo was actually a bug right from the start, which they just never fixed.

A "bug"? What a horrible and terrible LIE. Just took them a couple of years to realize that?

Rejoice. DEvs confirmed that multishot mods will be glorified fire rate mods now :)

So, instead of doing some nice balancing (simply nerfing the numbers so the mod feels less mandatory, but still a viable option, like 30%-ish chance for multishot), they just make them entirely useless instead?

 

Has got to be one of the worst decisions I've heard from them as of late....

[Invalid_Infinity]

A "bug"? What a horrible and terrible LIE. Just took them a couple of years to realize that?

So, instead of doing some nice balancing (simply nerfing the numbers so the mod feels less mandatory, but still a viable option, like 30%-ish chance for multishot), they just make them entirely useless instead?

 

Has got to be one of the worst decisions I've heard from them as of late....

It being a bug is indeed a lie. 

 

The people that believe that lie are being fairly ignorant.

Wake up people. If you call yourself a player of warframe then do not tolerate this crap.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Invalid_Infinity

[tocorro]

Altough I understand the issue, I'm concerned abot making weapons weaker by getting rid of multishot, while keeping enemies strong. No ammount of skill can help against super high lvl enemies with tons os shields/armor and a lot of health... and they come in large packs. So how to compensate the loss of weapon strength ? Without using cheap tricks. 

I'm concerned cause I'm solo player most of the time. So it would effectively cut my time in endless mission by half.

So multishot is just a part of the problem. If this is to be touched more balancing to other things tied with it will be needed.

 

And as was said in devstream multishot mods will make guns consume more ammo. What it effectively means : you will have to sacrifice mod slot for ammo mutation ; or grind for resources (thinking of polymer etc.) to build more restores.

It will add to the grind and time walls. Sorry but I don't see it as something good by itself.

If this must be done, then it should come as a part of LARGE rebalancing of many game aspects.

[(PSN)DBR87]

RIP Vectis, Vectis Prime, EVERY SHOT GUN with less than 10 ammo in the chamber/mag... especially Tigris, RIP most pistols and Burst rifles.

 

About the only weapons that won't see a drastic change in their ammo issues is high capacity mag weapons like Soma and Supra.

 

So if the goal is to have me does less damage because I don't want to reload every 2 seconds on my Latron Prime than congratulations complainers! You screwed the silent majority that was enjoying this game and didn't mind having 2-3 mandatory mod slots taken.

 

I am all for "Serration" disappearing and weapons scaling with level. But lets be honest. On every weapon you're going to put on an element. Every crit weapon is going to have a crit mod. Every status weapon is gonna have a status/element. I don't see how this is a bad thing.You can use about any weapon you want and and still have 5 other mod slots to put on whatever you want.

 

Whatever.... I just hope DE takes weapons like Tigris and Vectis when they balance this multishot ammo consumption thing.

[Bibliothekar]

Now they try search excuses in bugs story... Please.

The statement about it being a bug is a huge freaking lie straight from DE.

A "bug"? What a horrible and terrible LIE. Just took them a couple of years to realize that?

It being a bug is indeed a lie.

Coptering was a bug that they just kept because people loved it, until Parkour 2.0 came around. The colour system had a huge bug that they left unfixed for almost two years. And there probably were (and most certainly still are) more bugs that date back to Closed Beta and took a long long time to finally get fixed.

Why? Because their first priority is to push out new content to keep us playing.

 

Also, in case you didn't read it the first time:

They will look at all weapons again and change stats where needed to account for this.