Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[Genji]

I'm gone if it changes... 100% of my weapons were built & formaed for multi-shot. My secondaries are DoA the moment the change hits, Synoid Gammacor, Twin Grakata, AkSomati, Dex Furis etc, done. 

 

No way in hell am I going to re forma them or build around putting a band-aid on my build because 2 years later, DE wants to pull the "it was a bug" card. 

Enemies aren't going to become less spongy & low clip weapons are going to be reloading constantly. 

 

I've invested a lot of damn time into my builds & I like the current gunplay... don't fix what isn't broken. 2 years 2 late. 

 

Edit: a word

Edited September 6, 2015 by Genjinaro

[baldy117]

can someone sum it up?

[Ageless_Emperion]

Oh, so everyone that disagrees with your opinion should quit? I also like that you say "this community" when "this community" is made up of more people than just you.

 

K bye.

 

I never said that but since I see your not that keen on reading comprehension let me spell it out for you, as Tyl Regor would put it "I forgot who I am sending this to, I am sorry if all those big words hurt your head...".

 

Posting constructive criticism of a game feature or change to said game feature = GOOD.

Threatening to withdraw your support of a game before said feature has been implemented or so much as has been revealed properly = BAD.

 

And yes I would think that the "community" would much rather focus on anything more important than aholes who think that they can influence development of a game by threatening to quit it. Since if we look at the feedback forum there are tons of those threads going on that are trying to improve the game through suggestions and not by acting like little children who are going to take their toys and go home if their demands are not met.

[low1991]

I was joking please god nooooo T.T

Was the best plan in balancing a PVP game. not for WF, maybe... can be used for WF' PvP aspect.

[Purischira]

I think MJ's right about revamping the entire system and releasing it all at once, rather than going through and applying small changes that don't address the big issue. If DE wants to get rid of the required mods without revamping the enemy scaling system, turning multishot into a glorified rate of fire mod that just doesn't sound like a rate of fire mod isn't the answer. Multishot being reworked like this should come with the launch of a Damage 3.0, otherwise the game as a whole is going to suffer.

 

If DE wants to attempt a bandage approach now and fix the whole thing later, there's a much less controversial (and widely requested) change than making multishot into a pseudo fire rate mod. Fold the base damage mods (Serration/Hornet Strike/Point Blank) into their respective weapons and have them increase damage every 3 levels by their respective bonuses until the final bonus which is 30/40% respectively, which will max out at 165%/220% respectively. Boost the effectiveness of the non-event IPS damage mods, buff the utility mods, make more of them worthwhile. You'll end up with more build variety that way.

[Latronico]

Ok. Bye so. 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I don't think you actually know what sophistry is. Anyway, I can see you have nothing intelligent or reasonable to say and you're looking to start arguments. You're also putting words in my mouth and making very poor assumptions. Take better control of your emotions before you discuss a topic with opposing views, so you can get your point across without looking immature.

 

You're the one dismissing every point I made without even bothering to address it. You're the one resorting to nonsense semantical arguments like "This really isn't turning multishot into ROF guiz because it just makes more bullets spawn per trigger pull" and refusing to address peoples' arguments.

 

Instead of saying there are legitimate reasons to be upset and attacking valid statements by claiming they are sophistry, prove there are legit reasons by getting me to rethink my stance. If you can do that, then i'll believe there must be something seriously wrong with what DE intends to do. If you can't do that, then you're just whining for the sake of whining like most doomthread starters.

 

But I've already explained what the legit reasons are, though not all in this thread. (Others have made these arguments here though, and I'm pretty sure you've seen them!) You just dismissed them without even bothering to address them.

 

Here they are again:

 

In effect, this change basically makes multishot into a glorified rate of fire mod. The only difference between multishot and ROF with this change is the fact that multishot doesn't increase recoil like ROF does. There's no other difference between "60 bullets/sec and 30 bullets/sec but you fire an extra bullet with every other shot" in effect. The only place this distinction matters is damage per trigger pull. But I've never seen damage quantified in that fashion because it's pointless. Damage/shot yes for highly frontloaded guns like shotguns, but nobody strictly cares about the damage/shot of an automatic weapon in this game, and for good reason.

 

DE has a history of poor balance decisions, and making this work will basically require them to touch every gun in the game. Because every gun in the game uses multishot. The potential for things to go wrong is huge.

 

This change will completely screw over any gun with poor ammo efficiency. Buffing, say, twin grakata's ammo figure by 180% won't actually fix things since ammo isn't available enough as it is for high ROF weapons. To use another example, my braton prime has maxed ammo mutation and it can, just barely, keep its head above water in terms of sustainability. This nerf is going to render my favorite gun unusable.

The DPS given by multishot right now is necessary to endgame play. Level 100 bombards (see raid) even with 4xCP need to be downed almost instantly, otherwise you're screwed. Thusly DE can't balance the weapons until they've handled enemy scaling. But they haven't said anything about the elephant in the room.

 

Nerfing split chamber isn't just a DPS nerf. It is also a massive status nerf, which hits all guns. Suddenly my braton prime needs twice as much ammo to use or I have to accept near halved DPS and a near-halved status chance. On a gun that's carried on the strength of its status procs.

 

Certain guns are hit hard by this proposed change. Hek becomes a single shot shotgun. Synoid Gammacor becomes even more unusable.

 

Our sustained DPS is getting cut in half whatever we do because we'll be reloading twice as often (or more!) on average. Or if the extra bullet is pulled from our ammo reserve, we're still going to be running out of ammo a lot more and we won't be able to mount ammo scavenger auras because we still need that corrosive projection to deal with armor scaling.

 

And of course, nerfing split chamber like this isn't going to actually solve the problem of required mods. We still need that DPS to do high level play effectively. Either we're going to switch split chamber for something else that gives more effective DPS (ROF perhaps?) or we're going to have to cram ammo mutation into our builds if it's not already there (and then pray that ammo mutation is enough to deal with the additional consumption, which is a fool's bet for certain guns. Ammo mutation already has trouble keeping up with there really thirsty guns like wraith twin vipers, twin grakatas, synoid gammacor, etc. So already this change is failing in its stated goal since split chamber is still necessary, it's just that now we need *another* necessary mod on top of the split chamber/serration duality. Or we can spend nanospores every mission on ammo restore pads, slowing down our gameplay immensely while we wait for all four pulses to go through.

 

What do you have? "These people are upset and whinging about it. I don't like that." How about you defend this change? Remember: No enemy scaling rework is on the radar. ;)

Edited September 6, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[ndantony]

I'm gone if it changes... 100% of my weapons were built & formaed for multi-shot. My secondaries are DoA the moment the change hits, Synoid Gammacor, Twin Grakata, AkSomati, Dex Furis etc, done. 

 

No way in hell am I going to re forma them or build around putting a band-aid on my build because 2 years later, DE wants to pull the "it was a bug" card. 

Enemies are going to become less spongy & low clip weapons are going to be reloading constantly. 

 

I've invested a lot of damn time into my builds & I like the current gunplay... don't fix what isn't broken. 2 years 2 late. 

That's true.

We have forma-ed hundred of weapons with consideration of these damage and multishot mods. They could introduce more attractive options and alternative mods to allow more choices and "real", while further balancing everything else. Here, they try to take an ultimate shotcut. 

 

Whether intentionally, the worst part is the Destream 59 was used to boost the argument favoring the change, in turn suppressing the disagreements way before the change to be applied. Manipulating the communities like this only creates more discontents.

 

It's understandable that change is hard and will take time for us to adapt. But this change to multishot and damage mods isn't that simple. DE can patent the Bullet Jump which is better & faster than, to replace coptering. DE can screw up few time with Excal and finally said that it was "a bug". But they canNOT and should NEVER use that "trick" again and expect will solve this issue.

 

"This" is Warframe. You would think DE would want to make "this" even better and more & better choices. But... unless DE are blindsided by one-side argument, negative incentive is NOT the only solution, and definitely going to save DE or Warframe, especially on something, that many of us have been invested since day one!!

[Vanhline]

Them doing nothing more then the proposed changes would have a significant negative effect on the game. Burst damage would remain the same wile sustained design would fall through the floor as you would be reloading 2 to 3 time more often or just not using the mod and diminishing the dps just as much. You can't lower the damage curve and keep enemy scaling the same and expect things to go well.

 

That said. Enemy scaling is actually the root of the issue and why the damage from multishot is required. If this were to be addressed when making the change then it would be more then welcome but they need to leave the multishot alone until they are ready to tackle the real issue at hand.

 

 

Typed on phone...sorry for grammar. 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Vanhline

[Oishii]

I don't care about the multishot nerf itself, damage is all relative and it will make it easier to balance the game towards new people/people w/o potatoes vs potatoed forma'd weapons. Its having to reforma my entire weapon collection that bothers me. If DE solves this one issue I personally don't care.

[VellaX]

People threaten to quit over just about every major change, and this is a prime example. Games constantly change and rework old systems, Warframe is clearly in the process of making some major overhauls on systems that have been in this game for a while. 

 

We'll all just have to adapt to this change and modify our weapons accordingly. The multishot change is going to actually add some variation to modding weapons instead of the current "slap the same mods on every weapon" approach.

the thing is there is a limit for every game to how much bullS#&$ you can pull and or change before those people do actually quit. look at games like AA which died even faster in NA than most games iv seen because of the stupid crap they have pulled in such a short period of time granted it was allot worse than what DE is doing but this change could amount to as bad considering it changes the entire game play and i do not agree with the logic that we have to "adapt" at this point it's happened so many times we shouldn't have to adapt they have quite a bad track record of making stupid or silly changes in bad order or even just stupid changes without intent to fix it later without people begging and pestering them for long period's of time

[Wolfdoggie]

RIP anything that is not ammo efficient.

 

Especially all the elemental continuous/beam weapons I never use cuz of it. Really, I dislike having any weapon dependent on ammo mutation so I end up not bothering with them.

[Psychus]

Sniper rifles are bad because they're not good to use in most of the situations that appear in the game. You said it yourself. That's why they're being redone: they aren't good to use. Like I said, only a sycophant would deny it. Guess the label fits, because all that doublethink. You're an arrogant one at that. You can just be on ignore.

 

EDIT: And because several people are still missing the point: It's not about e-peen times in survival, or time to kill, or burst DPS or anything. It's the 4-ish months it will take me to build the forma to fix weapons after this change. And that's assuming only 1 needed per primary and 2 per secondary. Depending on what mods replace what, it could be more. It's like a punishment for having built up a collection and using different things. That sucks. The jokers who only use the boltor prime will only need to spend a couple forma and have it done in a day.

 

God, please, learn how to read. It helps so much. I said that situations that sniper rifles are used are few and far between. I didn't say they had no use. I even said that through personal experience, i had found a place they work wonderfully. The rework is going to be amazing, no denying that. But it's not their damage that sucks. Warframe just isn't a place where sniper rifles work. too many tight corridors and short hallways to make them usable against the massive amount of enemies we face.

Personal insults aren't a way to get your point across either, by the way. Yeah, you may have to reforma a weapon or two to get it to work, but that's actually your own damn fault. You do realize that, right? You put so many forma into your weapon that it's locked into that one build, instead of leaving it open for new mods, or changes. That's called future planning. It's a valuable skill not just for warframe, but life in general.

 

the thing is there is a limit for every game to how much bullS#&$ you can pull and or change before those people do actually quit. look at games like AA which died even faster in NA than most games iv seen because of the stupid crap they have pulled in such a short period of time granted it was allot worse than what DE is doing but this change could amount to as bad considering it changes the entire game play and i do not agree with the logic that we have to "adapt" at this point it's happened so many times we shouldn't have to adapt they have quite a bad track record of making stupid or silly changes in bad order or even just stupid changes without intent to fix it later without people begging and pestering them for long period's of time

 

Except for their track record of almost immediately removing changes if they don't work? Like.. the survival change? If the change is that bad, they'll remove it. But this? this is just a lot of people doomsaying because they MAY have to re forma weapons because they've forma'd themselves into a very small and specific corner. What's stopping you from putting a fire rate mod into that slot? Nothing. 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Psychus

[jfhsanseiIII]

If this is taking things in the direction of functionality versus powercreep then I'm all for the change.

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

How does this make my gaming experience better?

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

I think everybody is just overreacting and missing critical points. The big thing everyone is missing is the fact that the devs said they will buff weapons accordingly to the change on multishot. Another thing people miss is that up until enemy level 50+ multishot is not needed on most weapons so when the change hits using multishot will be for high level more or less.

 

The real issue with nerfing multishot is that right now we have nothing viable to replace multishot with, the best alternative would be crit chance but most weapons don't have the crit chance to be up to the task.

 

Personally this change means almost nothing for me since I don't use guns alot as I prefer Warframe abilities and melee but nerfing guns will open the way for more mods and builds and we shouldn't overreact since DE said they will rebalance weapons.

Right. Now please tell me how you would buff every single ranged weapon in the game and not screw something up along the way.

Edited September 6, 2015 by P0TAT0CANN0N

[HellDevil]

I got the corn and dogs ready for this fire on muti shot hahah! But seriousness aside, we have people who play day 1 of warframe and know more about mutishot then i do haha! Even if the changes happen heresa  thing. We are human we can find a way to cross this hurdle and 2 stop wineing and find a way or wait for lotus squad to help you or help me warframe chan.

[-YoRHa-]

-snip-

 

To be fair, we don't know if DE has enemy scaling on their radar or not. It takes about the same time to kill a lv100 Corrupt Bombard just using a damage/status mod in place of Split Chamber, at least in my experience in the simulacrum. I'll wait and see what this change does.

[TheBrsrkr]

Right. Now please tell me how you would buff every single ranged weapon in the game and not screw something up along the way.

Buff all clip sizes by 50%? There's a simple and lazy fix. Wouldn't help, but it's a fix.

[Caernarvon]

Almost every fast-firing automatic gun will become unusable in high level content. Even if you triple ammo pools and magazine size, you'll chew through all of your ammo in two minutes and ammo mutation mods aren't enough to regain the ammo at an acceptable rate.

 

Also, ALL damage-oriented Warframe powers save one or two do no damage whatsoever in high level content, if that's what DE wants guns to do too then you might as well forget about ever killing a lvl 90 corrupted gunner with anything but a crit/berserker melee weapon. Nice variety.

[Slifar]

I too can create a wall of text, but all I really needs to say is one word: opinions. 

 

If you don't like the fact that everybody has a right to voice their insight onto a topic, then you don't belong on a forum.

Oh, but that too is just your opinion, now isn't it?~ 

 

But no, in all seriousness, the issue isn't people voicing their opinions. That's fine.

 

The issue is people yelling and screaming and throwing a tantrum about something while frequently not even taking all of the information into account. Worse yet, many people take it a step further and try to present their opinion as a hard fact, without even taking even the smallest amount of effort to actually justify it beyond "Because I say so." And this is without getting into the whole "Spread of false information" thing. 

 

Voicing an opinion in a reasonable manner is fine. Throwing a tantrum like a spoiled 3-year-old who was just told that their mother isn't going to buy them that toy they wanted really isn't, and it severely undermines the credibility of pretty much the entire vocal community. 

 

OP If I told you "Coffee enemas are a great way to detox the body. Coffee is not good for you if consumed orally, but taken as an enema it has many great benefits."

 

Would you believe me?

 

You're trusting the word of someone who would perjure themselves in an attempt to make more money.

 

Remember lads, the buzz-phrase of the week is: "It's a bug." Be sure to use this explain any future shortcomings you may encounter.

I would fact-check your information, as you are, for all intents and person, some random individual on the internet with no proven authority on the matter. In fact, you most likely aren't even a doctor! 

 

By the same token, there is no higher authority on how a game is going to be designed than the person designing it, so your comparison is pretty irrelevant and silly. 

 

In fact, I'd hate to tell you this... But your entire argument here is built upon nothing but fallacies, chiefly of which is an abusive ad hominem. It is literally invalid by definition in the manner in which you have presented it. 

[BraverLeech37]

Ok if you don't mind please explain to me how this nerf makes the game better in any way for the player base. How does reducing player DPS and reducing mod/weapon variety even more benefit the overall gameplay experience of the player base please enlighten me.

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

How does this change improve my gaming experience?

[Slifar]

How does this change improve my gaming experience?

 

Well, assuming the change is pulled off correctly, it will allow one the option of taking another mod off over multishot, allowing a little more freedom with build customization.

 

And, while it may be a little rough in the short-term due to how such large changes work, the change should ultimately make it easier for DE to balance weapons against each other, as they will not have the greatly differing multishot capabilities that they do now. As a side-bonus, it'll also make it a bit easier to even out their power curves, since now DE doesn't have to lower the base damage of a gun just to account for the multishot value it can get. (Or fail to do so, and end up with a gun completely overpowering.) Ultimately, it'll be easier to establish a baseline for how strong/weak something should be across the board.

 

Mostly, though, it's primarily just going to make an extra modslot for you (And DE when they start making more novel mods again!) to play with.

 

Of course, this is all speculation about the optimal outcome, but there you go!

[Mak_Gohae]

 

 

Look, guys, I understand that a lot of you are concerned with your standard weapon loadouts getting changed in the near future, but all of this freakout is both unnecessary and more than a little hypocritical. After all, as they said, the community at large was complaining about how mandatory mods like this were! Isn't it a bit silly to complain and yell once they try to fix that for you?

 

Apparently the "community at large" does not agree with this idea, then.

 

This is the same with pretty much all changes.

They look for a change they like, not a change that has a heavy discussion, and they go on and change it.

 

The launcher change happened because there was a group of people that didnt like that with launchers you could sit in one spot and launch. Which coincided with their look into adjusting defense. So they enacted a change by lowering the ammo pool and that made the people complaining happy. But not the people who actually played with launchers and then needed to give suggestions until they got a proper fix. 

 

And that ended with most launchers just losing one slot to ammo mutation. Everything that could be accomplished before it still possible. But they appeased the certain group for 2 seconds.

 

So what i am actually worried here is what this change actually has in store?

Cause enemies also use multishot, right? And it's not even that, the balancing on enemy health aka game difficulty is not in need of a hard look.

 

Some one suggested and extra augment slot for weapons so this could be the first step in the introduction of that.