Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[HackShield]

-snap-

its not about we dont wanna get multishot changed but the problem is if they change this they kill all low mag or high RoF weapons in total

 

Grakata 

Lex

Vectis (1 bullet so no multi shot in any case)

Ogris 

Angstrum

etc.

 

and as said they can come and change such thing after

 

1. they really polished that idea

2. fixed RNG and Scaling

 

cause throw that now out kills 45% of the weapon pool immidently

and RNG gets even more a pain in the !

also Skill spam like miasma comes back and we get the same S#&$ as with mesa

team gonna be trin Saryn rhino nova etc to gain max dmg

and weapon gets used even less and the variance dying too

 

atm the pro vs cons about this change get overhelmed my the cons as much needed it is there bigger things to fix 

 

AND if any mod or DE read it pls do me the favor get on your dev client take the weapons lv 30 with multi shot mods and 1 by 1 and test em and you will see what we are talking about.

 

sure it gonna fix "some" weapons but the most of em gonna get #*($%%@ hard-

 

so just get the guts and nerf boltor p instead of killing anythign beside

Edited September 7, 2015 by HackShield

[(XBOX)RFIZZLEDIZZLE]

It sounds to me that you're making as many assumptions as I am then, especially in reducing the grind part. You're also assuming that the current starchart and all its grindy missions will be here when the multi shot changes come (at least that's what I'm reading), but starchart 3.0 and all its mystery is on its way and we really have no idea what will change and if that will reduce or increase grind. 

 

And power creep will change, maybe not on the same update, but they will have to change it. Changing overall weapon damage requires a change to enemy damage/level as well. 

 

Overall you're entire argument seems to be resting on the fact that DE won't change the AABC-wave-every-5-min mode they have going. I believe though the only reason this game has the it's strange rotations is because of powercreep, powercreep enabled through mods like multishot. Take that away and you give DE a reason to scale down the grind for players.

 

However if you're worst case scenario pans out like so: mulitshot rendered useless in current iteration of warframe, thus making the grind impossible for everyone who tries to fight a level 40 bombard, then DE would have shot themselves in the foot. However DE has been very shrewd in keeping the grind to just playable levels, and I have as much faith as you have cynicism for them that they will scale the levels down appropriately. 

I am not painting out the worst case scenario, you are painting out the best case scenario. I used the AABC thing as ONE example to show how if DE isn't willing to change that, then why would they reward you every minute/wave? My entire argument never rested on it, but yours rests in your faith to DE, which history as shown is not a wise choice.  

 

How has DE been shrewd in keeping the grind down as of recent? Have you seen the build requirements for the grattler/knux? Equinox? The stupid grind wall that is mesa farming and brings the problem of keysharing into the light? How about ash prime access part placement? T3D,E and S are already saturated and weighted with useless junk. 

 

If their intention was to fix power creep, then it would have come out all at once. They didn't release PK 2.0 piece by piece, no they did it all at once. To save it for a later update just pisses people off. 

 

Starchart 3.0 will still have a substantial amount of grind. You may not be farming the void constantly, but rest assured you will still be in farmframe. Plus, that argument still doesn't counter the players that want to do a high amount of rotations anyways. They will still not be able to out dps enemies. It is more about choice than anything. Some people like staying 40+ mins, others like to leave at 20. Multishot nerf will make 40+ mins unbearable.

 

Also, I mentioned how the new meta would shape to be like, but no. Apparently my entire argument is revolved around "A,A,B,C".

You never mentioned the new meta or weapon/mod diversity in your post, so I'm going to assume that you agree with that sentiment. 

[Fifield]

 

 

i'm not talking about raids, i consider end-game any t4 past 35 minutes-waves, sorry for not getting very clear on that definition.

 

 

 

i think you are missing the point of the whole idea behind this thread, the thing is "seasoned" wf players wants to have a challenge, i mean everyone can just pop another key after the first rotation C and repeat the process, but what i like of past 30 minutes t4 is that at this precise time, there is what we could call a sweet spot.

 

let me clarify: in that five minutes, from 30 to 35, the enemy scaling system is at the point at we players with maxxed gear can have a FAIR challenge

 

look at this 

 

as you can see, armored enemies after the "sweet spot" time is over, starts getting INSANELY tanky, thus, 5 more minutes from that mark the enemy scaling systems BREAKS and you start dealing no damage, THAT'S WHY people are forced to use 4 CP, to make the sweet spot extend for a longer amount of time

that's what we want, not easier enemies, but a fair progression that does not goes from "easy peasy lemon squeezy" to "prepare your anus" in literally 240 seconds

 

That steep orange line is only true for heavy grineer if you have neither 4xCP and no corrosive proc.  Bring one of those and it doesn't scale crazily.  So I don't see it as a problem.

 

It's not good game design, but it's not "broken" either.

[Arcadiace]

You hit the nail on the head, good sir.

+1

There is no cure-all or single fix that can be done to make everyone happy. The game's balance as a whole, in every mechanic, must be adjusted in tandem.

[ToastyCosty]

That steep orange line is only true for heavy grineer if you have neither 4xCP and no corrosive proc.  Bring one of those and it doesn't scale crazily.  So I don't see it as a problem.

 

It's not good game design, but it's not "broken" either.

 

 

That brings again my point: why should you change multishot then (for the sake of build diversity) if then we must ALL use the same mechanic Like 4 CP or high status corrosive weapons for end game!  you would fix the "build diversity" for multishot but create another "MUST HAVE" making cp mandatory, instead of optional but recomended, you trade a meta for another one!

so basically, the answer of your question is already in your sentence

Edited September 7, 2015 by ToastyCosty

[KnightCole]

Yeah, lol. 

 

Mobs go from 20dmg, 5000hp to all of a sudden,

 

13,000armor, 750,000 hit points and 3,250 dmg.....

 

Why dont game devs ever belive in gradual increases?

 

5m: 10dmg, 1500hp, 250 armor

10m: 20, 2750hp, 280 armor

15m: 30, 3500, 325

20m: 35, 4000, 360

25m: 50, 5500, 420

30m: 65, 6740, 500

35m: 75, 7250, 550

40: 100, 9000, 650

 

where now it seems to go:

 

5-30m: 5dmg, 200 hitpoints, 0 armor, cuz my soma basically 1 shots everything up to this point then

 

35m: 550 dmg, 7500 hp, 1080 armor+max serration and melee dmg mods

40m: 1220 dmg, 23,000 hp, 3750 armor+max primed serration, melee dmg, elemental and the works mods. 

45: 4570 dmg, 85,000 hp, 12250 armor+Dev troll cannon of you die.

[Fifield]

That brings again my point: why should you change multishot then (for the sake of build diversity) if then we must ALL use the same mechanic Like 4 CP or high status corrosive weapons for end game!  you would fix the "build diversity" for multishot but create another "MUST HAVE" making cp mandatory, instead of optional but recomended, you trade a meta for another one!

 

It's worse than that.  Multishot mods would need to be nerfed to be ~35% damage boosts to be 'optional'.  I sincerly doubt DE is talking about that.  Instead, we're talking about a 20-30% damage nerf from losing your 8th best mod.

 

But the bad thing is that you now get Modframe, where you slavishly have to fiddle with your mods depending on whether you're doing an endless mission or not.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523934-modframe-and-why-ordinary-nerfs-to-mandatory-mods-wont-increase-mod-variety/

Also, if you think about it, your 20-30% damage nerf means that 30 will be the new 35, so the scaling will affect you less.

 

Here's something sobering to think about:

 

The community created this problem.  We wouldn't be here, whining/asking people whining to stop/theorycrafting about speculative changes if there weren't dozens of threads asking for mandatory mods to be removed.  Warforum -- the new equally meaningless endgame.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Fifield

[ToastyCosty]

-snip-

 

 

it would be waaaay more than 20-30% damage reduction even with a multishot nerf, but i think you got the idea, about the scaling tho, would be the same, you simply move the "fair" zone 5 minutes earlier, but soon after the armor will start to rise again

 

about modframe, well, i think that's the way it's meant to be played, i mean, the current meta build is corrosive/fire thanks to all that armor scaling , but maybe if they fix that i will start thinking to worry about nullifiers shields more then heavy gunners and plan ahead...

right now warframe feels like "if you can kill a high level grineer with this build, it will sure work for everything else" 

[Fifield]

it would be waaaay more than 20-30% damage reduction even with a multishot nerf

 

Read the link.  If all they do is mess with ammo, it's 20-30% at most except on crit rifles.  If Multishot is made worthless, it's a 43% nerf on rifles, assuming you can't slot Piercing Caliber.  Nerf on shotguns and secondaries would be higher.

 

right now warframe feels like "if you can kill a high level grineer with this build, it will sure work for everything else" 

 

High level armoured Grineer, but you still need corrosive and viral builds on every weapon.

Wanting it to work for everything else is what I mean by Modframe.

 

[-Aza-Gorod-]

i was curious what the WF community really thought of multishot "fix" nerf so i made a poll. Another poll maybe made if DE does release a "test" update of their experiment to compare and see where it may stand.But i made this poll to show or try to show DE what the community really thinks or so the poll say.

 

At the current time of this post

 

130 total votes

 

18% says yes for multishot nerf or "fix"

 

while 82% says no multishot nerf or fix

 

link to the poll : http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=55ea1510e4b0c3d16faaaf73

 

sometimes its best to leave things on their own or alone.Also Multishot is well multi - shot or multiple in a shot. So would have to correct multishot to multishots to make logic of the mod IF  this happens but I personally hope it doesn't.

[Jin_Kazama]

People hate change. but at the same time, people complain that they want to remove the whole "3 mods are NEEDED" for every weapon.

Multishot fix is fine, but since people are 100% used to the way things are now, expect rage and concern when their BoltorPrime isnt working at optimal condition xD

Edited September 8, 2015 by Jin_Kazama

[Latronico]

Ok.

[SquirmyBurrito]

People hate change. but at the same time, people complain that they want to remove the whole "3 mods are NEEDED" for ever weapon.

Multishot fix is fine

 

The change (as it has been presented here) is terrible. Removing the 'required' mods via making them completely unusable on high RoF weapons is not the correct way to go about this. You can't just chalk our dislike for this change up to "People hate change". I'd rather DE remove multishot mods and add their effective damage bonus to some other mod (like serration).

 

A multishot change is fine, this multishot change is not.

[Faulcun]

Its not about hating change. Its about the fact that this change is two years after the ENTIRE game has been created and balanced based on our current damage output. Simply adjusting the weapons is not going to fix the situation.

 

I personally feel that the change needed to happen..... TWO YEARS ago, or at least damage 2.0 could have addressed it. Instead, it strengthened it.

 

This change will only cause a massive amount of resources spent trying to undo 2 years worth of one single mistake. How much time and money will need to be diverted to completely iron out the affects of this change?

 

I think they need to find another solution to even this out. Look at what happened to dark sectors. One massive mistake after another, and then they abandon it all together for over a year.

[DrCrawford]

"some guessed math on ammo for a few weapons"

 

Lulz

 

boy oh boy you went full out 'guessing math'

[TheBrsrkr]

This poll is akin to asking a child "do you want to eat candy and play all day or do your homework?" Only one of these is appealing, but only one of these is beneficial, too.

Also, that disclaimer is so biased it isn't funny. I mean really.....

Edited September 8, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[7grims]

I vote neither.

 

Option number 3 is the best way, and the real fix.

Debating those 2 options is a idiotic waste of time.

Option 1: Reworking all the weapons just because of 1 mod (multishot) is stupid.

Option 2: Keep complying with this broken mod system of mandatory mods, were we all play with the same builds, and always equip the same mods, is ret*rded.

 

Option 3:

Actually solve the serration problematic, and all the mandatory damage mods, by removing all of these.

(re-balacing of enemies/gear, and introduction of new and proper utility mods and strategic mods, goes without mentioning)

Edited September 8, 2015 by 7grims

[MrAnticitizen]

Made the suggestion of a poll to Megan or whoever is under the name "Ginga Ninja". Unsure if they bothered to take it and pass it on to the community moderators. If this nerf is to exist in the game, might as well rid the game of endless content. If people can't mod their equipment to their liking for the time(Survival), waves(Defense), or rounds(Interception) they wish to go, then should endless missions even exist if the NPCs eventually overwhelms every single player at a certain point? I am also curious if the same Digital Extremes employees from the days of Unreal Tournament still works with the Digital Extremes that has developed our beloved Warframe.

Edited September 8, 2015 by MrAnticitizen

[Faulcun]

Think about it..... the first year, DE had an operating cost of around $23 million. The last year im sure its been more, but for the sake of the argument, lets just double it. Thats two years, and $40+ million dollars fine tuning enemies (although poorly), and the rest of the game around our damage output. Add in power creep, and you have a giant mess. This change will not come anywhere close to fixing the mess we already have, and it would be a massive waste of resources trying to fix it.

 

Changes do need to be made, especially with multishot and serration. But this change and weapon adjusting isnt going to do anything but add to the problems. This suggestion goes much deeper than that.

[Nopy117]

Dont they realize that changing it into a ammo consuming thing changes it into a rof mod not a dmg mod....

Why even bother.

[Burnthesteak87]

The majority isn't always right.

It often tends to follow the sheep flock logic.

A lot of people express without having direct informations or thinking clearly about it, they just follow the most noisy element of the flock and bury their caprice to it, thinking it can express their "position" better.

Simple.

DE expressed their intention into working around Multishot, they gave some slight information, people assumed that was everything they had to know.
Not going to be harsh, but that's not smart. After that people started flaming. This would be more than enough.
People kept flocking to support this colossal whim. Exceptional social experiment.

If there would be smart people not supporting the Multishot change, they should give smart motivations AND valid alternatives, plus taking distance from flamers and toxic rioters, elseway their position is invalid.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[taiiat]

can i vote that this poll is stupid because only a partial idea was mentioned?

[LifeNine]

My Latron Prime without Split Chamber can kill enemies in a solo void survival reliably up until they reach about level 70. If I pushed it to the point when I run out of ammo, I can probably stay until the enemies were level 75 to 80. With Split Chamber, I can do the same up until they reach somewhere between 90 and 100. The survival times were 45 mins and 60 mins respectively. Given that it's possible to get two full rotations in a survival mission without having any oxygen problems, I think that Split Chamber isn't entirely necessary and I don't mind if they make changes to Split Chamber.

 

Nothing in the game except for Trials, long endless mission, and some nightmare events will have enemies that high level. In other words, you should be able to clear the whole star chart, void missions, and Derelict without Split Chamber on a rifle. Sure it will be a little harder because you're not doing as much damage, but I didn't think it was that bad after using for half an hour or so in the survival mission. You should give it a try.

 

Secondaries and Shotguns will get hit harder without the multishot though because their mods provide more than 100% multishot.

[TheBrsrkr]

My Latron Prime without Split Chamber can kill enemies in a solo void survival reliably up until they reach about level 70. If I pushed it to the point when I run out of ammo, I can probably stay until the enemies were level 75 to 80. With Split Chamber, I can do the same up until they reach somewhere between 90 and 100. The survival times were 45 mins and 60 mins respectively. Given that it's possible to get two full rotations in a survival mission without having any oxygen problems, I think that Split Chamber isn't entirely necessary and I don't mind if they make changes to Split Chamber.

Nothing in the game except for Trials, long endless mission, and some nightmare events will have enemies that high level. In other words, you should be able to clear the whole star chart, void missions, and Derelict without Split Chamber on a rifle. Sure it will be a little harder because you're not doing as much damage, but I didn't think it was that bad after using for half an hour or so in the survival mission. You should give it a try.

Secondaries and Shotguns will get hit harder without the multishot though because their mods provide more than 100% multishot.

No! The rational discussion! It BURNS!!!

[Aimop95]

that would work if de didn't have a record for doing so poorly with changes. odds are whatever rebalances are made for guns/enemies as a result of this single mod change won't be hardly enough, and plenty of the community knows it. 

DE doesn't get the changes correct right off the bat, yes that's true, but they do eventually fine tune it out.