Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[(PSN)The_Moustache]

After their past mistakes, I really don't have much faith in DE to not screw this up. Anyone still remember them saying that they wanted to reduce the grind? A terrible joke.

[(XBOX)JasonsNightmare]

If by 3 you mean "just remove the damage mods, and solve the serration problematic once and for all, instead of just wasting time only on multishot", yah I agree.

 

Except that it wouldn't. If you remove the damage mods, then the Soma Prime would still be that much better than the Hind or the Grakata. It would scale every source of damage down, but it wouldn't change anything. It's like algebra, not that anyone would care. The Soma Prime (SP) is, for an arbitrary example, twice as good as the Grakata (G). Even if you cut both in half, SP would still be greater than G, and SP would still be a better choice of weapon. This idea is literally the most futile idea I have yet to hear on the subject, as it would only make the end-game content even more ridiculous and even less balanced.

 

And yes, the enemy scaling got much worse.

Edited September 6, 2015 by (XB1)JasonsNightmare

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

All this for what ?

 

It's going to happen, ACCEPT IT. 

 

Endless missions will be a think of the past unless you can melee end game mobs or spend a ton of resources in Ammo refills.

 

You all know this day was coming at some point but now it's over. 

HELL NO!

I don't think you actually know what sophistry is. Anyway, I can see you have nothing intelligent or reasonable to say and you're looking to start arguments. You're also putting words in my mouth and making very poor assumptions. Take better control of your emotions before you discuss a topic with opposing views, so you can get your point across without looking immature.

 

Instead of saying there are legitimate reasons to be upset and attacking valid statements by claiming they are sophistry, prove there are legit reasons by getting me to rethink my stance. If you can do that, then i'll believe there must be something seriously wrong with what DE intends to do. If you can't do that, then you're just whining for the sake of whining like most doomthread starters.

I know from experience that you don't change your opinion even if you are given overwhelming evidence to the contrary. 

[Judgebanks]

"Having it not increase ammo consumption has been a two year bug."

 

 

I swear this has to be a running joke at this point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dev 101, want to nerf something? Claim it's a bug, and you have to fix it.

Nah, I'm done, I'm out, DE is a bunch of @(*()$ liars. Don't give money to liars.

[Lightsmith]

Honestly, if I'm understanding this correctly (about to watch Devstream). If Multishot uses Ammo faster, it makes it more like a corrupted Mod than a regular mod. Regular Mods have no negative to them, pure +. If it uses more ammo that is a + and -. Not a fan of this, but its up to them if they want to balance, but it really is going to wreck the end game. They'll need to adjust end game difficulty to nerf it. I understand they want to get away from the "obvious mods" for builds, but I'm not sure if I can agree with this.

 

Also if it not using ammo is "a long time bug" as some have stated, its pretty purposeful that they left it in on purpose, it isn't hard to fix a bug like that. Rather they built the game around the bug, expecting players to use it, now if they remove it they need to rebalance the game to fix it.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

My 6 Forma Dex Furis cried when this news was announced.

 

All in all, it feels a lot like when I lost my Just Cause 2 save. I loved that game, but having to redo all those base takeovers, like having to redo all the weapon builds here, made it impossible for me to enjoy it. Losing it all made it feel like too much a waste of time and effort, and asked me to do it all again just to get back to where I was.

 

The same thing happened to me with that game, and that was the day I stopped playing it.

[nickelshark]

Yes! The current infinite scaling is a disease and it's really holding WF back.

[Me.KayOh]

Lovely post. going to tweet this link to them now.

Edited September 6, 2015 by kalikilic

[Mastikator2]

The last time they fix enemy scaling was back in the transition to damage 2.0

Of course we knew the scaling got worse :P

I remember it being worse than it is currently. But an enemy scaling reduction, along with a massive nerf (and rebalance) across all damage mods (to keep things relatively similar) AND making all mandatory mods optional would be ideal. It would close the massive gap between low tier and high tier stuff as well as make utility a reasonable option without forcing it into a separate category.

You should have to choose between raw power, endurance and utility and all options should be reasonable even in "end game"

[achromos]

I... Think I'm done giving money to DE.  Nerfing Multishot mods, I may not be elitist, but I am big on Min/Max, and unless they balance weapons at the same time, or close to it [within say a month] will make already worthless weapons feel like wet noodles.  What's worse is the "White Knight's" out there saying "Oh Just accept it!",  and "DE Said it was a bug, so it must be fixed!"  or even  "You get what you deserve!" I mean really now?  Do you WANT the weapon choice for min/maxers who want to eke out that as much efficiency in a gun to lose about 95% of their choices?  Instead of all the other weapons you see today, you will only see maybe one to five acceptable weapons for actual end-game-use which will shoot diversity in the knee...

 

GG, DE.  Was fun.  Going to go and play MGS:V Phantom pain for a while, and other games and hope that they don't decide to make 95% of their guns feel like wet noodles too.

[MJ12]

It's a step in the right direction that has a landmine in the path.

 

Rather than clearing the landmine (aka fixing the enemy scaling), DE's telling us to walk on through, promising that maybe they'll give us some shiny leather boots (rebalanced ammo pools) before then.

 

My preferred analogy of Warframe's current balance is that it's a teetering Jenga tower with most of the blocks missing, except all the blocks are made out of high explosive. The tower is shaky already, and you don't know if pulling out any one block will cause the entire edifice to come crashing down, blowing you, your friends, and everyone else up.

 

The only way to rebalance the game is to adjust everything-damage mods (and I mean all the +damage/+multishot mods), enemy health and damage scaling, enemy star map levels, possibly mission rewards, and fix all of it at once. Otherwise, things get more than a little messed up.

 

Changes to single components are a thing you do when the systems, overall, work and you're dealing with a peripheral system. When the system, in total, is very shaky, changes to single components are likely to completely break the system, especially if you're dealing with anything that's "mandatory" or "important" in the system. The example I'd use for what the multishot nerf seems like, to me, is Exalted Second Edition.

 

If anyone is familiar with Exalted Second Edition's combat system, they'll know what I mean. If they aren't, I'll explain briefly. In Exalted Second Edition, because of the massive lethality of attacks (damage scaled far better than health and armor), you would get instantly killed if an attack hit you. Furthermore, attack accuracy scaled better than defenses like dodging and blocking, so you'd likely get hit if you were relying on those. Fortunately, characters were given the power to pay magical energy ("motes") to perfectly block or dodge an attack, ignoring it. Because of this setup, all fights devolved to both sides whaling on each other with perfectly normal attacks and saving all their magical energy to defend against enemy attacks, repeat until one side or the other ran out of magic juice and died. This is bad-it made perfect defenses necessary and it made combat and character building boring.

 

To fix this problem, the developers had to basically redo every single weapon's damage, recost every single armor, modify almost every power that increased attack damage, introduced several new concepts to allow people to use magical energy for offense without weakening their defenses (because otherwise they would be able to pay for fewer invocations of their perfect defenses) and only then could they nerf perfect defenses. This, I might note, didn't actually fix every issue-it was just a patch job that rendered the game system somewhat playable without investing in a perfect defense.

 

This is the kind of herculean effort eliminating 'mandatory mods' in a way that doesn't lead to the game balance breaking one way or the other will need to go through-it'll require basically an entire overhaul of hundreds of weapons, of enemy leveling, of enemy damage and scaling, possibly even of mission rewards. Now, the game will be better for the effort, but that assumes DE is actually going in and adjusting all of this together, then putting it out together. Otherwise, the result will probably be worse than the current system.

 

I have no problems with making multishot non-mandatory and thus weaker in general. I have a problem with the fact that DE thinks that multishot's mandatory nature is a problem in and of itself, rather than a symptom of deeper issues.

Edited September 6, 2015 by MJ12

[KvnMcK]

They want to get rid of mandatory mods, just by nerfing one of them. I personally dont think they should be wasting time, trying to re-balance the entire arsenal AND the enemies for this one change. As it solves nothing, and something will take its place.

 

The reason mods are mandatory, is they are unambiguous and undeniably the way to the best DPS. Right now the guns are only about squeezin out more dps. Which is satisfying in its own way, personally i love theory-crafting on warframe builder on its own right now. A strictly numerical system however, lends itself to calculable "solutions". What they should be trying to do is re-balance the mods to move towards a utility based system. Ill propose a sort of approximation of what I myself think it would look like.

 

Reload speed- mostly fine, increases sustained dps but since it affects playstyle i think it could work. As long as it provides similar sustained dps to most other mods, i think its fine.

 

Fire rate- also pretty much fine, while burst dps increases, your sacrificing ammo efficiency and dmg per shot compared to most alternatives. Again, it affects playstyle, and its fun to theory craft with. Good for ppl who wanna swap weapons all the time.

 

Elemental dmg- These are suprisingly almost on point too. The idea being you can improve dps substancially on certain health types. For instance, heavy gunners givin you trouble? these can let you build for them but at the cost of the grunts taking more hits. prolly gonna have to nerf the overall dps on these tho, so they arent ubiquitously and overwhelmingly dps powerhouses.

 

Pure dmg- your serration type mods, these have to  be rolled into weapon levels. IDC how thats done, but that eliminates another mandatory mod so we can focus on utility.

 

Multishot- The instigator here, also prolly the biggest change. So dont let this distract the main point if this isnt what ud want. Multishot adds dmg. If they attempt to counter this, it HAS to be totally non-comparable. So, I suggest It add recoil and muzzleflash (where applicable obv. bows an the like could prolly just waver after a while idk). Since your firing multiple projectiles at once. This forces ppl to stop after a bit if they actually want to aim. Thus ppl who wanna go full auto, or focus on accurate headshots, will go for other mods. Ppl who want single big hits, or feel the power of full auto that has llegit recoil to compensate for, have a reason to go for this.

 

I think that covers the important bits. TL;DR- I dont think DE should waste time trying to solve warframes modding issues one mod at a time. You'll be stuck compensating for the rest of the system and it just isnt worth it. The real source is the meta-game that only allows the best mods for dps. Thats why they had to add dmg to the "Adhesive Blast" and if they try to change multishot theyll be stuck in the same position. 

 

*edit* formatting

Edited September 6, 2015 by KvnMcK

[Kubloo]

With the various proposed solutions and ideas revolving around this "Nerfgate" of an event... I'm beginning to think the best solution would be to do nothing at all. The game is fine and pretty well balanced in my opinion. Farming is busy but not to the point of tedious (in my opinion) and despite a lot of newer weapon releases being dissapointing statwise (looking at you paracyst) the game seems to be well structured. What the heck made them think to pull this type of stunt just after a very successful update that did a great job of blending archwing in with normal combat, an idea I thought would be impossible to pull off?

[AdunSaveMe]

Because balance should exist. And it's not done entirely for balance, but also to combat the mandatory-ish factor.

The same will likely be done with other must-have zero drawback mods, like serration.

 

Also, seriously, quit acting like it'll ruin the game. It won't. And it's still obviously up for debate.

Edited September 6, 2015 by AdunSaveMe

[Kubloo]

And if you're wondering I posted this off of my phone so its showing my old PC account for some reason.

[Kubloo]

Because balance should exist. And it's not done entirely for balance, but also to combat the mandatory-ish factor.

The same will likely be done with other must-have zero drawback mods, like serration.

 

Also, seriously, quit acting like it'll ruin the game. It won't. And it's still obviously up for debate.

Now don't get me wrong, it won't ruin the game of course, but I feel it creates more problems than solutions in Warframe's current state. One person described the nerd very well in that with ammo consumption would multishot just be a hyper advanced speed trigger? You're shooting the same bullets just 2 at a time.

[7grims]

... pretty well balanced... the game seems to be well structured. 

 

What?

What?

 

Have you started playing yet?

Are you even speaking of warframe?

[7grims]

Its a classic DE move, rework something several times, until they realize band-aids arent fixing it.

[Psychus]

Willpower? A normal human being stops playing a video game when the video game stop being fun. It really is that simple.

It takes willpower to be a free to play gamer. In order to not pay for your experience, you have to either put in effort (aka willpower) or plop down money. Your choice.

 

 

Which is why I completely trust them to rebalance everything this time. I should just let this go through uncontested.

 

Oh, wait. That 's a reason to not trust that they'll do it right.

Except that those weapons are now viable. That was fixed along the way. Damage 2.0 also destroyed a ton of weapons, which were later buffed/fixed to work with the new system. Before jumping all over something as proof that DE is bad, do your research. Please.

[Ajiit]

You guys can still use the mod and if you worry about ammo we have ammo restore gear and mods that give us ammo also Aura's...

[Ajiit]

Because balance should exist. And it's not done entirely for balance, but also to combat the mandatory-ish factor.

The same will likely be done with other must-have zero drawback mods, like serration.

 

Also, seriously, quit acting like it'll ruin the game. It won't. And it's still obviously up for debate.

well said. And to bring more with this comment we have ammo restore gear and mods that give us ammo also Aura's that give us ammo

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Except that those weapons are now viable. That was fixed along the way. Damage 2.0 also destroyed a ton of weapons, which were later buffed/fixed to work with the new system. Before jumping all over something as proof that DE is bad, do your research. Please.

 

"Those weapons" Like the acrid. Which you see all the time. Right.

 

If you think waiting months for weapons that were unnecessarily ruined to be fixed is a good thing, you deserve every bit of hate you get for saying something that dumb.

 

 

 

After their past mistakes, I really don't have much faith in DE to not screw this up. Anyone still remember them saying that they wanted to reduce the grind? A terrible joke.

 

See, this is exactly where I'm coming from. Their attemps to reduce grind got us Mesa, Equinox, and the abysmal drop rates on Ash parts.

 

They should be focusing the reworking on enemies and then tweaking the weapons, but instead they're nerfing weapons (across the board, due to the common use of multishot) and are probably, maybe, going to change how enemies work and get it right on the fifth or seventh time.

 

If they prove me wrong on that, good for them and everyone. But I have no reason to expect it to work right the first time, which could mean months of messed up game.

Edited September 6, 2015 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[LOKIME]

I don't really mind ANY change/nerf/buff as long as it WORKS... balance it's always welcome. 

[Psychus]

"Those weapons" Like the acrid. Which you see all the time. Right.

 

If you think waiting months for weapons that were unnecessarily ruined to be fixed is a good thing, you deserve every bit of hate you get for saying something that dumb.

 

 

 

 

See, this is exactly where I'm coming from. Their attemps to reduce grind got us Mesa, Equinox, and the abysmal drop rates on Ash parts.

 

They should be focusing the reworking on enemies and then tweaking the weapons, but instead they're nerfing weapons (across the board, due to the common use of multishot) and are probably, maybe, going to change how enemies work and get it right on the fifth or seventh time.

 

If they prove me wrong on that, good for them and everyone. But I have no reason to expect it to work right the first time, which could mean months of messed up game.

Really? Cuz I have a friend that still, to this day runs with the acrid, and has zero problems with it. Granted, it doesn't melt pretty much every boss in two seconds anymore, but that's kinda what balance means. Just because people jump on crutch weapons and cling to them for dear life doesn't meant that people don't use weapons outside of the "this is the best" category. 

And answer me this. When has warframe EVER been in such a bad state that it's been rendered uplayable for MONTHS? Short answer is never.

Doomsaying is bad, and you should feel bad.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Really? Cuz I have a friend that still, to this day runs with the acrid, and has zero problems with it. Granted, it doesn't melt pretty much every boss in two seconds anymore, but that's kinda what balance means. Just because people jump on crutch weapons and cling to them for dear life doesn't meant that people don't use weapons outside of the "this is the best" category. 

And answer me this. When has warframe EVER been in such a bad state that it's been rendered uplayable for MONTHS? Short answer is never.

Doomsaying is bad, and you should feel bad.

 

When's the last time they nerfed basically every weapon and gave us their we-want-to-reduce-grind quality word that they would adjust everything to fit it?

 

How long were shotguns bad?

 

How long have snipers been bad?

 

That's how long I expect everything to be bad, because it's what DE has done in the past. Only a sycophant would deny this.