How To Deal With Serration

[MumblesMcphatty]

Im still waiting for one of the many many times this idea has surfaced to provide a viable alternative for the time sink inherent within Serration and it's ilk.

Sure you'll just dismiss it with some BS like earlier in the thread about being "too attached to little things" and miss the point entirely like all the others.

F2P games revolve around time sinks for progression - R10 mods are a major source of that here - so .... the only way this idea works from a developer perspective is if that time sink gets moved elsewhere.

Any ideas where the easiest move would be?

[(PSN)Onyxflamegod]

I'd rather meet in the middle for this one and just add a slot to all weapons for Point Blank, Serration, Hornet strike, and Pressure Point, specifically. And they're the only mods that can go in the slot, and that those mods can only go in those slots. Remove mod drain on them if the weapon has been maxed at least once. Keep the 0 mod drain when formaing.

That way we get our free weapon slot, and we still get the progression based growth via the already existing mod. In addition, it'd make people who want to forma a weapon suffer a lot less.

That's just my take on the matter anyhow.

[Lost_Cartographer]

The main reason I play Warframe is that unlike every other game on the market, Warframe lets you stupidly powerful. You "normalize" damage like people like you want and watch the game die a quick death.

I do not doubt that even if everything is "normalized" that most enemies will be easily dispatched cannon fodder, that IS part of Warframe's design philosophy, but people do complain about there being "no challenge" until 40 minutes to an hour into a survival for a reason, and I doubt it's the getting-shot-at difficulty of being one-shot.

 

I'd say you're in the minority.  Being so stupidly powerful that the game is practically on easy mode is how the game gets boring quick, and then DE is really relying on the RNG grind to keep people playing, chasing that carrot.

[Hypernaut1]

I think we should just have several different serration mods (that cant be used together) with utility stats attached.

 

so you could have a +150% Serration with 10% reload, or +120% serration with +20% ammo drum, +150% serration with 20% precision, +120% serration with -20% recoil, etc.

 

This way we are not all slotting the SAME damage mod, but have to put some thought into it. We can then compliment the bonuses with other mods.

 

Personally, i would also like to see the 3 main elemental mods worked into serration too. with additional weaker elemental mods to create elemental combos.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[Lost_Cartographer]

Ok, I've been gaming a heck of a long time, explain to me both how this could ever be accomplished and more importantly why it should be accomplished. We're playing a game with guns, each gun is different from the other guns in the game. THAT is the variety amongst weapons, we don't need every gun to have 1000 good builds.

 

So, you propose something but can't even name 1 game that has done it ever. Do you think there's maybe a reason for that?

Name a game that uses a modding system like Warframes...

 

The issue with builds right now are that the mods are simple and unimaginative for the most part. Everyone's right when they say there will be a new "must have mod" because of that fact.  DE could start by looking at Borderlands for some ideas on mods, like on reload, there's an AoE around the Tenno that does damage equal to the number of remaining rounds in the magazine.  A mod that applies a combo counter to guns that both increases damage and the spread or recoil of the weapon with each consecutive hit until a round misses, the target dies, or a reload.  Rounds that ricochet off walls/floors/ceilings into the nearest target.  Ammo that procs status explodes into shrapnel to hit other nearby enemies for a chain status effect.  A mod that sometimes doesn't take a bullet.  A mod that causes enemies killed while under a status effect to explode with that status effect.

 

Basically, DE needs to step away from simple stat buffing mods and look into tactical mods that would actually influence how a Tenno uses their weapon beyond which targets they're planning to shoot.

[(PSN)Onyxflamegod]

+150% Serration with 10% reload.

My hikou would love the hornet strike version of this.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

I think Serration should be an innate mechanic rather than a Mod 

 

Weapons At rank 30 deal +165% more damage, and the damage ranks up every 3 ranks. 

 

Of course, for the sake of not having overpowered new players, MK-1 weapons don't have this mechanic, or any starter weapon for that matter. Or put a MR restriction on it 

 

Thoughts?

Yes! :]

[Hypernaut1]

Name a game that uses a modding system like Warframes...

 

The issue with builds right now are that the mods are simple and unimaginative for the most part. Everyone's right when they say there will be a new "must have mod" because of that fact.  DE could start by looking at Borderlands for some ideas on mods, like on reload, there's an AoE around the Tenno that does damage equal to the number of remaining rounds in the magazine.  A mod that applies a combo counter to guns that both increases damage and the spread or recoil of the weapon with each consecutive hit until a round misses, the target dies, or a reload.  Rounds that ricochet off walls/floors/ceilings into the nearest target.  Ammo that procs status explodes into shrapnel to hit other nearby enemies for a chain status effect.  A mod that sometimes doesn't take a bullet.  A mod that causes enemies killed while under a status effect to explode with that status effect.

 

Basically, DE needs to step away from simple stat buffing mods and look into tactical mods that would actually influence how a Tenno uses their weapon beyond which targets they're planning to shoot.

we have a TON of different weapons that do that for us. What you are asking ios the equivalent of having Borderlands gun + a bunch of unique mods on top of that. WF is not really that different from BL when it comes to weapon diversity. (although BL is a bit more silly and outlandish with their themes)

[(XBOX)LexaHex]

I'm being edgy because people like yourself seem to talk without thinking and every now and then a dev will ruin a great game because it listened to the clueless minority.

 

Take out Serration, the mod that everyone loves and either spent a ton of time levelling or real world money on. See how that works out with the fanbase. Games die really fast with just 1 big mistake and that would be a very big mistake.

 

Do you really think DE will specifically listen to me? You must really have an absurd mind to think that DE will listen to me. 

 

Just so you know DE never listens to one person's suggestion and if they did, they'll twist it to their liking, also if the community hates it, they will revert the changes. 

 

So you really have no legit reason to be edgy other than a stretch that you can't stop believing 

 

In your opinion, should “required” mods be reworked (with appropriate rebalancing)?

1. Yes, required mods should be reworked and affected weapons should be rebalanced. (549 votes [58.78%])

                                                                                 

2. No, mods and weapons should only receive minor tweaks where appropriate. (258 votes [27.62%])

 

This is from community hot topics, and you say everyone loves serration... can't you see that DE can tweak it whichever way to balance out the game?

Edited September 12, 2015 by (XB1)LexaHex488

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I'd rather keep my maxed Serration and have them add more mod slots to shut up everyone asking for more flexibility on their builds. It would be easier to add additional polarization/Aura slots rather than removing such a decisive mod that has been a milestone for players.

Sure somebody could buy a maxed Serration, but somebody had to max it out in the first place. That effort netted them a return on their time and use of in-game resources in the form of platinum, thus stimulating the Warframe economy.

So some player spent money to acquire this mod. Well they worked in real life. Or their parents did. But regardless somewhere somebody put some sort of effort into this whole process in some form or another.

Just handing over Serration level damage on each weapon to somebody farming Senchura for 20 play throughs till it hits 30 is cheap and a slap in the face of those who made this effort to max out that card, or worked a few hours at some job they hate.

Besides then where do you master rank lock this damage percentage behind? MR15? MR10? Six formas and so on. You start to crush the hope of new players coming in because it's now super daunting, or you tick off the older players by still keeping it at lower rank where anybody can now match them on DPS with very little effort.

I'll be honest. It feels great to max a Serration Card. When you finally complete it, you feel a sense of satisfaction. And you are rewarded for it because it delivers damage across the board as you experiment with different weapons as they come and go. It's tangible because it greets you in your mod collection as a gem. Having it just invisibly spread out over these horrible guns doesn't appeal in the least to me at all.

Edited September 12, 2015 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[Endgame77]

I do not doubt that even if everything is "normalized" that most enemies will be easily dispatched cannon fodder, that IS part of Warframe's design philosophy, but people do complain about there being "no challenge" until 40 minutes to an hour into a survival for a reason, and I doubt it's the getting-shot-at difficulty of being one-shot.

 

I'd say you're in the minority.  Being so stupidly powerful that the game is practically on easy mode is how the game gets boring quick, and then DE is really relying on the RNG grind to keep people playing, chasing that carrot.

 

Yeah, I'm in the minority, that's why the game is always in the top 15 played on Steam. Think about that for a minute.

[-Sandman]

DE compensate for the grind he says. Funniest thing i heard all week. 

[Deejudanne]

Name 1 video game EVER made that every player has a unique build? Good lord, I hope DE is smart enough not listen to people on here.

skyrim and most elder scrolls games

[Endgame77]

skyrim and most elder scrolls games

 

Really, the games with like 5 weapons that almost everyone uses? Not exactly the best examples. And yes, I have hundreds of hours in each.

[Deejudanne]

Really, the games with like 5 weapons that almost everyone uses? Not exactly the best examples. And yes, I have hundreds of hours in each.

you havent rly played the games i see 

 

[Sidathe]

I'd rather keep my maxed Serration and have them add more mod slots to shut up everyone asking for more flexibility on their builds. It would be easier to add additional polarization/Aura slots rather than removing such a decisive mod that has been a milestone for players.

Unless those mods affect DPS or damage outright, they'll go unused because they either can't fit (You only have 6 - 7 slots available on every weapon because Serration and Split Chamber, and the like), or they just don't do enough. When was the last time you used a Hush on a rifle? Do you even remember what Hush is?

 

As for it being a slap in the face to people who've leveled it up? It's a slap in the face the internet exists at all to the phone companies. It's a slap in the face of cable providers that things like Twitch and internet TV exist. It's a slap in the face to factory workers that machinery exist where they used to build firearms by hand.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Sidathe

[peekitea]

I say we replace serration with a mod that down scales your damage.

[Brokenrune]

Greedy? No. Entitled? Maybe. I already have two maxed serrations, how does wanting the system through which I attained my max serrations and through which others can obtain, and have obtained theirs make me greedy? Keep in mind that I have never sold or solicited buyers for a maxed serration.

And yes, part of the point of mods is customizability. However, as the mod system is currently designed it also adds a sense of progression to the game both in the collection of the varied mods and in the leveling of them. If the whole point of the system was just the ability to customize our gear then serration and it's ilk wouldn't exist and every mod in the game would be handed to us at the beginning of the game at maximum effectiveness.

LexaHex488

-snip-

My problem with making damage dependent on mastery rank is that it encourages people to level gear as fast as possible without stopping to really play with it. The way things are now and back when I was maxing serration I never felt bad about slowing down to really check out a weapon because I could still be putting the cores and mods I got into serration. If it was changed there would be even less of a reason to slow down if any at all since the maximum potential of any weapon would be locked behind ever higher mastery ranks.

And you're right, it doesn't take anything more than to be willing to lay down some real money for the plat to buy a rank ten serration, but not only is the person who ranked that serration being rewarded, DE is being funded by the person willing to buy that ranked serration. It's a win-win situation as it is now, the proposal to tie damage to weapon rank is neither rewarding by virtue of time and effort, nor can it in anyway help fund DE directly unless someone is buying weapons with plat solely to level and toss, which is much more unlikely than just buying a maxed serration from the trading channel.

No one has yet made an argument as to why changing the system so that damage scales with weapon level is better in any meaningful way than what we currently have. All the suggested change does is make damage more easily accessible. And I for one refuse to accept "easier"="better".

edit: added responses instead of making a double post

Perhaps rework the mastery system, and change how scaling works... honestly that would be a better idea :/ since I believe warframes main selling point is the customization and non p2w elements.

 

The infinite scalling is the problem, these must have mods are simply a symptom not the root of the issue

Edited September 12, 2015 by Brokenrune

[Otaiken]

After you remove the mandatory dmage mods you will simply slap the most relevant utility mods in the current weapon and call it a day.

 

Where exactly is the build variety then? Slow reload speed? Yeah, the obvious solution here is Hush! Low firerate? Obviously extended magazine size!

 

People that like quirky builds are already using them in this system, I see them regularly and they don't seem to have any trouble with it. People that want base damage mods gone just want both damage AND the utility. Or is damage VS utility not a choice now? Is choice strictly between utility and different utility?

 

So just tell me this. We assume that both Serration and Multishot are gone. What do you put on Dread for example? Well, crit mods obviously... wait, those are mandatory DPS mods on that weapon. Ok, assuming Serration, Multishot and Crit mods are gone, what do you put on Dread? We start with firerate... well that's a no brainer isn't it? Then we go for... Terminal Velocity! That's a proper utility mod! Of course I'm already using that one on some of my builds. Then we go for Thunderbolt cause it's puuurty and we have space for it now! And last we go for the sweet sweet arrow nock time coming from Fast Hands.

 

Ha, unique build for Dread is born all we need to do is remove DPS mods. Think of the variations, the customization! Some people might prefer removing thunderbolt or Terminal Velocity for... ugh...  Ammo Drum? Arrow Ammo Mutation? Oh, I know, status chance. Though only goodf status mods are tied to elemental damage. Some people even prefer to use those mods over stronger pure elemental damage mods... but I'm getting sidetracked, we were talking about build diversity here!

 

This is all assuming that elemental mods go through overhaul as well otherwise the obvious answer to the freed up space is MOAR ELEMENTS!!! Enemies are gonna glow with ALL the colors now!!

Edited September 12, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[Omnimorph]

I think Serration should be an innate mechanic rather than a Mod 

 

Weapons At rank 30 deal +165% more damage, and the damage ranks up every 3 ranks. 

 

Of course, for the sake of not having overpowered new players, MK-1 weapons don't have this mechanic, or any starter weapon for that matter. Or put a MR restriction on it 

 

Thoughts?

 

No, no, no, a thousand times no.  Having your damage progression be YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AND CHOICE (weighing ranking it up vs ranking up other mods like tanking mods) as opposed to something that happens automatically, is one of the best things about the game.

 

The "damage mods are bad yo" camp is, frankly, a bit dim, IMHO.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Omnimorph

[Burnthesteak87]

On other topics has been highlighted that the real problem with modding is "players just do it to reach MAXIMUM DAMAGE".
This happens because the mod system allows it and the endless enemy scaling in endless missions requires it.

Some solutions:

• Powershifting: move all the damage buff to a single mod (Serration) from Elemental mods, Crit and whatever messes with damage increase;
  this would anyway mess with how the elemental damage conversion would be counted, since the actual system is accumulative.​
• declare that just 2-3 specialized slots ala Exilus can contain damage mods;
• declare an Hard Cap on damage similar to how Power Efficency works. Allowing eventually Corrupted mods to bypass it, or not, depending on the circumstances.​

[Omnimorph]

 

On other topics has been highlighted that the real problem with modding is "players just do it to reach MAXIMUM DAMAGE".

 

 

This is moot as players will try to reach maximum damage whatever the system, and obviously an automatic system will reach max damage as well. 

 

The advantage of the system as it stands is that the progression of the main thing you do in the game - damage - is under your control.  Sure, eventually you'll reach the maximum damage you're capable of, but you'll do that under any system, and meanwhile for someone levelling up through the Star Map, it's very satisfying to see your damage shift up when it's under your control, and under your choice whether you bump up damage vs. bumping up tanking mods.  It's something that adds to the addictiveness of the game.

 

Whether the maximum damage you can get in the game is too much is again moot, since the game has no endgame proper yet - we don't actually know how much "headroom" DE have built into the system to cope with the Sentients. 

 

I suspect they'll present a challenge to players who are at max "mandatory" mods as they stand now.

[Burnthesteak87]

You clearly didnt read what I wrote. If you limit or powershift the whole damage boost to just Serration, that won't be a problem anymore.
Then people will consider using other mods.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Hypernaut1]

just give us different serration mods. I dont see whats so complicated about that- except for the fact that we'll have more mods to max, which IMO is a good thing.

[makaloff95]

Name 1 video game EVER made that every player has a unique build? Good lord, I hope DE is smart enough not listen to people on here.

CoD and Battlefield to mention some