Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Punchedface]

Miasma
Through noxious exhalation, Saryn pollutes the atmosphere with a lethally poisonous mist that corrodes all enemies in range, effectively disintegrating organic and synthetic matter instantly.

 

 

Terrible choice of words now

 

Why the hell did you change Miasma from an cheap, broken, OP nuke spamfest ability into a new flaccid botched nuke with barely any CC that can only match the old damage after wasting more energy on ability combos or apply status chance using weapons that probably does the job better.

 

 

How can turning enemies into popsicles deal more base damage AND destroys armor way better than dousing enemies in corrosive material.

 

 

Where's the CC? Where's the guaranteed corrosive proc/armor removal per tick? Stagger or accuracy/damage debuffs? You could remove the damage for all I care, and I would be more than happy to get a proper, large debuff field that can destroy armor completely overtime and just wreck the enemy's ability to fight.

 

 

Buff Miasma's range and duration (and maybe power efficiency), reduce the damage so that it doesn't become a spam nuke again, and add effects such as:

-Give corrosive proc that removes a fixed amount of armor per tick (10% of initial armor, for example)

-Have Miasma buff toxin and viral damage, instead of the other way around (enemies gain toxin/viral damage vulnerability equivalent to % of health lost)

-Give stagger chance per second (50 or 75% per tick at max rank)

-Considering the enemies probably have corrosive/caustic material in their eyes and/or sensors, shouldn't at least a couple of them get blinded?

 

Maybe give it a Rhino Stomp treatment where damage is dealt in a small radius of 15m and the long duration debuff aura that stays with Saryn until duration runs out or is re-cast

 

A torid like ultimate that drops a large cloud

 

Or a reliable combo system that eventually gives Miasma a very efficient cost (similar to Rip-Line/Landslide except applies to all abilities and has longer duration that's unaffected by mods)

 

There are way more possibilities than that

[Synitare]

And yet people are calling this a hardcore nerf on the basis of being slightly less effective against a single level 100 target.

 

You will kill every enemy on the map, every cast of spore, if you are playing anywhere near intelligently.

 

To be fair, you need to know how to spread spores, and also have a weapon that's at least decent for it. Barring that, Saryn will top the damage and kill charts in every run. No Frame can clear as hard as she does for the energy she spends, in the speed she clears it.

 

"To be fair, you need to have 100% ideal circumstances, and also use one of  a small handful of weapons modded in very specific ways. Once you do this she's finally mediocre"

 

Your claims were argued and refuted in the thread before it was merged here and you never responded, yet you're still holding on to such claims?

[Quicksylver]

Why not just make miasma a toggle similar to world on fire that reduces armor with each hit and adding duration makes the ticks faster? Less damage than before but it would make it so you would be able to constantly debuff (corrode) enemies and use your 1/2/3 to buff damage enemies within the aura's range take from it? At least then it would be better than trying to pull this "combo" idea off while someone with a brain and a mouse or a frame that has vastly superior abilities (most of them) kills everything before you get a chance to finish setting up? 

[WrathAscending]

Having played Saryn a fair bit after her rework, I think only two changes really need to be made for Saryn to work as intended.

 

First and foremost, make Spore an Area of Effect power like Ember's FIreball or Frost's Freeze. It's a frustrating experience to keep getting invalid target messages because you've barely missed opponents in a game as fast-paced as Warframe, particularly when it's for the skill most important for using Sarn's new skill set.

 

Secondly, make Miasma move with Saryn for its duration the way World on Fire, Turbulence, Mend & Maim, Silence and other powers do. Enemies caught in the initial cast are hit with the full duration; targets that are encountered later suffer the remaining duration.

[Fulgie]

I cant type something realistic about her since she is leeching my life energy to fill her energy pool(message has been sent) ... Im dying slowly as she keeps leeching me but she is about to dump me just like million other guy she dumped before. Oh no she coming for me... I can hear the viral procs... DE pls help me

[ragingdeamon]

congratulations DE for making all of saryn's abilities useable. she finally has a third skill. 

the problem I see with most of the complaints is that saryn's focus has been shifted from doing massive amounts of damage to weakening foes for disposal. much like venom, she weakens her foes before delivering a final blow. 

 

that being said, your remarks about her being overpowered are... debatable. I won't repeat what has been said here over and over, but I'll try adding my thoughts. 

 

the changes to miasma cause saryn to require a different mindset. before, you just had to fire and forget; now you need to set up your field before making your move. saryn now focuses more on field control, rather that having to move fast to kill fast. overall, the effectiveness of the skill has been nerfed, which was to be expected. I'd like either a reduced cost, or something like a corrosive cloud on cast and on a molt if you consume it. you would actually leave a miasma that way. also a visual effect would be nice, just to see how far does miasma spread. if it's there, I blame my choice of energy color.

 

toxic lash is great, but it will take a while to get used to. with toxic spore, enemies die pretty quickly, but not so quickly that I can leave them there. that's really odd for some reason. I like the skill, the problem is how toxic damage works. I suppose I'll get used to it eventually. 

 

overall, I'd like if you could revisit saryn's abilities' cost. for a frame that relies on so many of her powers to achieve maximum potential, she's limited by her energy pool. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by ragingdeamon

[JirayaKami]

In my honest opinion the Saryn nerf was too strong. This way a Miasma-playstyle is no longer viable.
Now you have to conciderate everything - Power Duration, Power Range, Power Strength and Power Efficiency. It's just too much at once. One does not have enough slots to put everything in, that would make Miasma even remotely effective.
Barely anyone will play this once genius Warframe anymore - once my main, unless the developers do something.

My suggestion would be to increase Miasma's range by 50-100% and make it a set range that is not affected by Power Range. This way at least Power Range would be taken out of the equasion, as Power Duration was before.

[czdj117]

This setting Saryn playable

This setting is not for beginners

 

+250.00%

POWER RANGE

 

+600.00%

POWER EFFICIENCY

 

+485.00%

POWER DURATION

 

+350.00%

POWER STRENGTH

 

 

-60.00%

ENEMY ARMOR

[Nakimato]

Sorry to ask this WF,

 

but is making Saryn totally useless really your stiyle of "reworking" her?

 

Yeah i have to say skill 1 is better now.

Molt is is in my eyes still the same and is just used for a short decoy anyway.

Toxic Lash, nice to see that we can cast it on the run now but adding a 100% proc, why do we have status chance on weapons?

 

And now finally Miasma:

Let me say it this way, if you put it back how it was i call this Saryn "rework" a good rework.

 

If you let the Miasma the way it is now you can delete Saryn because the ult is totally useless

and playing her on something else than the ult is also a total waste of time.

I mean when i cast an ult i wanna see something happen. If i cast the Saryn ult now i see that i be better of with a

bleed proc from Equinox with negative power.

Well just switching to Mirage then -.- Max - Range - Dmg - Duration - Efficiency build as Spoiler

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Mirage/t_30_0400220330_4-0-5-5-2-5-6-6-5-8-8-5-13-7-3-46-1-5-55-3-5-411-4-10-479-5-10_4-9-46-6-5-9-55-11-411-8-479-7-6-11-13-7-8-14-f-f_0/en/1-0-26

 

 

I mean someone mentioned it already, why do we have to use a "combo" for an ult? No other frame has it and why? Because it sucks.

 

 

3 Tips to make WF better than it is right now:

 

1. Return the Saryn ult to the way it was before the "rework" because thats not a rework its just a nerf in disguise.

And making a good Frame useless only because of a few flamer that cannot afford the cores to max the right mods isn't the right way.

 

2, Make Mags Pull usefull again.

Suggestion how to do it; Augment again Item Pull for all Teammembers (no engergy or life orbs), not line of sight pull for Items

The absolute only thing what Mag is good for is max dmg Shield Polarize on max range but even that don't work with the Nullfields and so she got about 4 of 4 skills that are useless.

 

3, Make Mesas ult another way because

i don't wanna get eye cancer every time i like to play Mesa.

Sure it is good that you don't snipe everyting around you within 50m range

but why the focus thing go and make it zoom closer on its hit radius but this blur is just unhealthy for the eyes.

 

Good Day and i wait until the Saryn Rework of the Rework is done.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Nakimato

[bubbabenali]

 

This setting Saryn playable

This setting is not for beginners

 

+250.00%

POWER RANGE

 

+600.00%

POWER EFFICIENCY

 

+485.00%

POWER DURATION

 

+350.00%

POWER STRENGTH

 

 

-60.00%

ENEMY ARMOR

 

I must admit, thats funny.

[Latiac]

RIP Saryn. I feel like the new changes FORCE you to use every ability which shouldn't be the case. I fear for the future reworks after both Mesa and Saryn got shafted right into the ground, (Mesa slightly less so but it's still there) We're the Tenno, we are meant to be able to do this stuff, taking on whole armies, where did that go? It seems like we are having that stuff slowly stripped from us and having it replaced with things not worth using.

 

I'm pretty dissapointed in this and to be honest it's one of the first reworks which has genuinely annoyed me more than irritated. I hope they do something about it soon, we DON'T need less frames being played, Why would i use a saryn now? I can Mirage or Ember and get a much better effect.

 

I honestly feel like everything we find 'fun' is this game is getting 'fixed'. No fun allowed. I'm normally all for changes, but as for the reworks past Excal and frost? I'll take them with a grain of salt from now on.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Latiac

[Kasseopea]

Lets be honest - Warframe is not about fabulous combat-setups. Yeah, you can achieve nice damage if enemies have viral + toxic, but who is going to bother?

 

I mean, the damage is about the same? Yeah, k, what about the cast time? It takes FAR too long to actually get all that damage starting and it takes even longer for it to be dealt. What was great about Saryn was her abilitiy to quickly nuke a room and continue. Now it's a slugfest at best. And it costs more energie.

 

Let's sum it up then, shall we?

 

Pro:

 

+ Pretty Skin

 

Contra:

 

- Less damage on average

- The DPS did the same thing Neo did when he first tried to jump to the other building

- A LOT more energy to deal the same damage needed

- By the time you are done casting, somebody probably already cleared the room with an unmodded Lato

[ENIAK_Prime]

"90% damage reduction on Block!"

I don't know how to feel about this.

On the one hand, FINALLY. This is one of the big things holding Melee back right now. The utter lack of (real) damage mitigation after stamina got thrown out the window.

On the other hand, putting a bandaid-fix on a specific warframe indicates that DE doesn't see the issue with blocking on the whole. It's like "... what, you want to SURVIVE while playing melee-only? Uh... okay. Play... Saryn. Here. Have fun. (n00b)."

[DameDameNingen]

Summary:  Saryn is perfectly fine.

 

Read my thread on it if you want a further explanation, but to put it simply, Try using Spores. Using Spores right completely obliterates Miasma in terms of strength.

Spores are godlike, true, but that doesn't excuse the rest of her kit being lacklustre. This update was supposed to stop her from being a one-button frame, in case you hadn't noticed.

[Sonicbullitt]

Lets be honest - Warframe is not about fabulous combat-setups. Yeah, you can achieve nice damage if enemies have viral + toxic, but who is going to bother?

 

I mean, the damage is about the same? Yeah, k, what about the cast time? It takes FAR too long to actually get all that damage starting and it takes even longer for it to be dealt. What was great about Saryn was her abilitiy to quickly nuke a room and continue. Now it's a slugfest at best. And it costs more energie.

 

Let's sum it up then, shall we?

 

Pro:

 

+ Pretty Skin

 

Contra:

 

- Less damage on average

- The DPS did the same thing Neo did when he first tried to jump to the other building

- A LOT more energy to deal the same damage needed

- By the time you are done casting, somebody probably already cleared the room with an unmodded Lato

these ae all the problems I have with this rework, people saying she is fine right now is bullS#&$.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Sonicbullitt

[(PSN)PluggedInBabies]

I think one of the big problems is the rework highlights her as an individual and what she contributes to the team. This is a game where utility is king, and she doesn't have any. Spreading viral isn't a big utility because any frame can achieve that with status build weapons. She doesn't increase the team's damage output by a relevant degree, she doesn't plow through enemies, she doesn't reduce the threat that enemies pose. She has nothing to stand out of help a team, in a game where characters that have support options are held in extremely high regard. Nova, Loki, Trinity, Rhino, Frost, Equinox, Banshee, Vauban... right now if you stack what Saryn brings to a team up against other frames, I think its safe to call her one of the three worst Warframes.

My thoughts are based on the words of the community and footage I have seen from the people here because I am a PS4 Tenno who hasn't touched this new build yet. But I have a process when I select a Warframe for a mission. I think about what the mission type is, what that Warframe offers to my squad, and how much easier will the mission be if I bring that frame. As a result, I almost never play frames like Saryn. Because Saryn doesn't make my teammate's lives easier. She just inflicts damage. The biggest thing she needs right now is a way to truly help her team beyond just making enemies hurt.

Consider making Miasma stun enemies for longer. Maybe look at having Miasma apply a guaranteed Corrosive proc, similar to Spore's Viral and Toxic Lash's Toxin. Take a look at potentially having Toxic Lash affect teammate or consider making it a toggle. Small tweaks that can give her more of a presence in a team and more worthwhile in longer runs. I think she may even need more beyond these things to be truly relevant in harder missions, but ideas like those can help her stand out more and really contribute to the team effort.

Right now she can't hope to stand out against the other frames because she brings no direct support to the team, and support is king in Warframe. She needs some way to truly help her team to really shine in this game. As it stands, she doesn't help the team besides doing what most of our guns do better: Inflicting damage.

Edited November 6, 2015 by (PS4)PluggedInBabies

[Sonicbullitt]

I think one of the big problems is the rework highlights her as an individual and what she contributes to the team. This is a game where utility is king, and she doesn't have any. Spreading viral isn't a big utility because any frame can achieve that with status build weapons. She doesn't increase the team's damage output by a relevant degree, she doesn't plow through enemies, she doesn't reduce the threat that enemies pose. She has nothing to stand out of help a team, in a game where characters that have support options are held in extremely high regard. Nova, Loki, Trinity, Rhino, Frost, Equinox, Banshee, Vauban... right now if you stack what Saryn brings to a team up against other frames, I think its safe to call her one of the three worst Warframes.

My thoughts are based on the words of the community and footage I have seen from the people here because I am a PS4 Tenno who hasn't touched this new build yet. But I have a process when I select a Warframe for a mission. I think about what the mission type is, what that Warframe offers to my squad, and how much easier will the mission be if I bring that frame. As a result, I almost never play frames like Saryn. Because Saryn doesn't make my teammate's lives easier. She just inflicts damage. The biggest thing she needs right now is a way to truly help her team beyond just making enemies hurt.

Consider making Miasma stun enemies for longer. Maybe look at having Miasma apply a guaranteed Corrosive proc, similar to Spore's Viral and Toxic Lash's Toxin. Take a look at potentially having Toxic Lash affect teammate or consider making it a toggle. Small tweaks that can give her more of a presence in a team and more worthwhile in longer runs. I think she may even need more beyond these things to be truly relevant in harder missions, but ideas like those can help her stand out more and really contribute to the team effort.

Right now she can't hope to stand out against the other frames because she brings no direct support to the team, and support is king in Warframe. She needs some way to truly help her team to really shine in this game. As it stands, she doesn't help the team besides doing what most of our guns do better: Inflicting damage.

agreed add to the fact doing all this costs her a ridiculous amount of energy for what other frames can do better.

[UrielColtan]

Not did, are going to. He will launch clones to attack enemies rather than jumping around himself. His invulnerability will likely go to.

 

Also the Saryn update has been out for what, 30 minutes. Everyone should probably calm down and try some new builds with her before deeming her useless.

 

Thats not a committed idea for Ash, thats just a concept tossed around, they also tossed around a concept of him having atoggle ability where he is in some kind of smoke dimension and aims at enemies to launch at them. We don't know what the definite rework will be.

[Creamed]

because you're supposed to be using the Abilities and playing the game with the Abilities, the Abilities aren't supposed to be playing for you.

Exalted blade says hey gurl heyyyyy  while doing the nae nae ... didn't people say it was a good rework?

 

Blind & energy projectiles that go through objects even hitting through nullifiers in just that 1 skill alone. Yup.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Creamed

[Synitare]

Exalted blade says hey gurl heyyyyy ... didn't people say it was a good rework?

 

Exalted Blade is good. It requires player interaction to work, it pairs with his other abilities, it rewards players for being in melee range rather than punishes them, and it has built-in utility. Exalted Blade is what an ultimate ability should be. Excaliber is what a melee frame should be.

[RealPandemonium]

 

Part of the problem is that miasma's stagger is not very reliable. For example, if you cast miasma next to a heavy gunner - even if your miasma drops before their slam (and you're host, so lag isn't an issue) - they will perform their slam and come unstaggered. 

 

Given that miasma's range is trash

Ground slam animation does resist staggers, but they are not able to start a ground slam while staggered.  Conversely, if you cast Miasma during their ground slam animation, you ignore the knockdown and they are staggered instead.  

 

15m range is standard for the stronger nukes (shared with reckoning and Avalanche,) and Miasma still does so much damage (boosted by both procs, new Miasma is only 10% weaker than old min duration MIasma) that using a max range build is still desirable (especially since it helps Spore and Molt spread more easily.)

 

I didn't spread viral with a two-second venom, I never went to 12.5% duration.  I only have one fleeting expertise so I kept it at 4 pips, and at 23% duration old venom was closer to 4 seconds.  And since I was normally using saryn in the void I'd put continuity on to get 53% duration which was closer to 8 seconds, which was more than enough time to sweep my pyrana across a group of void enemies and have them all viral'd and kept miasma damage high enough to clear chaff for a while.  If I was really worried about duration I'd use primed continuity to get 12 second venom, which was more time than Spore has now, even, since modding into duration is still bad.

 

I didn't bother with venom in draco, I just jumped around one-shotting all of the non-eximus units and most of the eximus with miasma.  Saryn wasn't even that great in Draco by the end though, I'd just use Equinox instead since she nuked basically the entire map at once.

If you didn't use minimum duration before then your Miasma was even weaker than current 300% multiplier Miasma.  Venom also didn't have guaranteed procs before the rework, btw, so there's no guarantee that the whole group would be affected by Viral status.  

 

Let's see, this are Saryn's abilities used without Miasma:

-Spore is easy to spread, but the damage is insignificant. It's just used to boost Miasma's damage.

 

-Toxic Lash is a melee ability, but they reduced Saryn's health. It's harder to get close to the enemy at higher levels.

 

-Molt would be even good if it didn't die before we can even cast Spore. The augment is the only useful thing of the ability. It's utility is basically to set up procs to boost Miasma's damage. 

 

See what I mean when I say that all her skills are made just to increase Miasma's damage? It's not like she has 4 abilities, it almost looks like she has one, but she needs to spend lots of energy to use it.

Spore spreads Viral status across the map, effectively doubling damage dealt to everything (its tick and spread damage also increase exponentially as you damage grouped enemies in AOE.)  Its damage contribution is potentially enormous.

 

Contagion was already a melee ability, albeit unusable with the old Miasma build.  The increase to blocking also adds defensive potential while in melee mode.  Not sure why max HP was reduced, though.  

 

Molt is supposed to take the heat off of you so you can escape, not tank indefinitely.  If you want Molt to take aggro for long periods then find places to cast it that make it difficult to pop immediately.  You can also get the combo off easily by molting while aimgliding toward the camera and immediately casting Spore.

 

 spores don't spread on death btw, you still have to shoot them before the enemy dies otherwise no spread 

This was hotfixed.  Spores now spread on death, but to a reduced radius.  

 

So am i mourning Miasma?

 

NO

 

I dont even mod for it any longer.

 

Sure it can deal good enough damage which is fine.

 

The increase in setup time by 8 times and a energy cost increase of nearly 5 times is what kill any thoughts on building for miasma for me. 

 

Good work on DEs part of reducing my complexity of play and actually make her a DoT frame because that is all Saryn will ever be for me since the rework.

Fully synergized (300%) Miasma is still the strongest nuke by far (4200 damage,) and is average with other radial nukes (1400 vs 1250 and 1500)  even without any synergy.  Spreading Viral procs is a joke with Spore now so a 200% Miasma (2800 damage) is pretty much guaranteed with almost no setup time (cast Spore once, spores spread constantly and almost passively in most scenarios.)  Using certain weapons, you can also eliminate the need to cast any more ablities after the first Spore, reducing setup time and energy cost even further.  The great thing is that with builds that are good for the other three powers, Miasma will also deal good damage, unless you don't add any power strength.  

 

You can also ignore Miasma and just build range/durability or w/e.  The good part about the rework is that Miasma can still be super powerful now but we actually have to do something to get that power instead of getting it for free with via a programming oversight.

 

Does Miasma give an AoE toxin process or is it just nuke mcnukersob?

It staggers enemies and deals Corrosive damage both immediately and for some seconds thereafter.

 

 

Exalted Blade is good. It requires player interaction to work, it pairs with his other abilities, it rewards players for being in melee range rather than punishes them, and it has built-in utility. Exalted Blade is what an ultimate ability should be. Excaliber is what a melee frame should be.

No one uses EB from melee range, and EB's damage output is so ridiculous that I consider it indefensible.  New Excal is basically a bandaid for staying infinite scaling missions, which is abhorrent.  

Edited November 6, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[DameDameNingen]

Buff Miasma's range and duration (and maybe power efficiency), reduce the damage so that it doesn't become a spam nuke again, and add effects such as:

-Give corrosive proc that removes a fixed amount of armor per tick (10% of initial armor, for example)

-Have Miasma buff toxin and viral damage, instead of the other way around (enemies gain toxin/viral damage vulnerability equivalent to % of health lost)

-Give stagger chance per second (50 or 75% per tick at max rank)

-Considering the enemies probably have corrosive/caustic material in their eyes and/or sensors, shouldn't at least a couple of them get blinded?

 

Really, really like these ideas. +1

[Creamed]

Exalted Blade is good. It requires player interaction to work, it pairs with his other abilities, it rewards players for being in melee range rather than punishes them, and it has built-in utility. Exalted Blade is what an ultimate ability should be. Excaliber is what a melee frame should be.

I wouldn't say it rewards players for being in melee range when it has fluctus like energy projectiles.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Creamed

[Synitare]

I wouldn't say it rewards players for being in melee range when it has fluctus like energy projectiles.

 

Getting in melee range lets you perform finishers if you blind them first, and hitting enemies in melee range adds to the combo counter while the waves do not.

[RealPandemonium]

Getting in melee range lets you perform finishers if you blind them first, and hitting enemies in melee range adds to the combo counter while the waves do not.

You don't need to do either of those things, though, since the wave damage is so high anyway.